Urgent Question potential dangerous split

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi
I wish ask for a few views.  I sadly seem to be finding myself in an ever more precarious situation.  This is probably my third post in a week, my apologies but things seem to be escalating quite badly.

Over the past few days I have decided to leave my suspected BPD wife.  She came back after a family function at the weekend tonight, she was in a foul and abusive mood the second she walked in the door.

She snapped at me, in a threatening way.  I felt like telling her I was going to leave (potentially in the next week) but I held my tongue.

Now my worry is my safety.  And my question is should I tell her i'm leaving and pack and leave and certainly be verbally attacked and quite possibly physically too.  Or should I secretly pack while she is away at work and leave safely (like a coward). Originally I had wanted to be decent and tell her my intention but now i am not so sure

I have to be honest I am worried for my safety, while she has never hit me yet, she is brutal with her tounge and her shouting and throws things.  I can only imagine that leaving her is going to trigger the worst fight I have ever witnessed against me.

In hindsight when she has been raging I guess I have also seen her in a state of psychosis, so I can only assume this may happen again.  I can quite easily seeing a really out of control situation potentially even with the police involved.

To be honest I wish to leave on the quiet, I cannot take another explosion,.  If you can share your view, I would be most appreciative. 

You may see I have posted a few other posts last week but things seem to be getting worse.  Tonight’s trigger was merely her coming home bone tired after the weekend with her family and seeing me (getting some food (( food and who cooks is an old trigger) .  She simply ate her food and went direct to bed.

Thank you

[Ruskin]

Hi
I wish ask for a few views.  I sadly seem to be finding myself in an ever more precarious situation.  This is probably my third post in a week, my apologies but things seem to be escalating quite badly.

Over the past few days I have decided to leave my suspected BPD wife.  She came back after a family function at the weekend tonight, she was in a foul and abusive mood the second she walked in the door.

She snapped at me, in a threatening way.  I felt like telling her I was going to leave (potentially in the next week) but I held my tongue.

Now my worry is my safety.  And my question is should I tell her i'm leaving and pack and leave and certainly be verbally attacked and quite possibly physically too.  Or should I secretly pack while she is away at work and leave safely (like a coward). Originally I had wanted to be decent and tell her my intention but now i am not so sure

I have to be honest I am worried for my safety, while she has never hit me yet, she is brutal with her tounge and her shouting and throws things.  I can only imagine that leaving her is going to trigger the worst fight I have ever witnessed against me.

In hindsight when she has been raging I guess I have also seen her in a state of psychosis, so I can only assume this may happen again.  I can quite easily seeing a really out of control situation potentially even with the police involved.

To be honest I wish to leave on the quiet, I cannot take another explosion,.  If you can share your view, I would be most appreciative. 

You may see I have posted a few other posts last week but things seem to be getting worse.  Tonight’s trigger was merely her coming home bone tired after the weekend with her family and seeing me (getting some food (( food and who cooks is an old trigger) .  She simply ate her food and went direct to bed.

Thank you

[Notwendy]

I think safety is an important consideration.

Leaving a marriage has other considerations too. One of them is legal. I am not a lawyer and don't have personal experience but have read that in some cases, packing up and leaving is considered abandoning your home. If you own your home, then you would have a legal and financial stake in that.

If violence is a concern then there also needs to be a safety plan. One consideration is the possibility of legal retribution- there are cases where the wife starts domestic abuse, calls the police and then accuses the husband of domestic abuse. The law tends to side with the woman and the husband spends several days in jail with a domestic abuse charge.

This does not mean you are trapped in your relationship without choices ,but I think it is prudent to consult a lawyer and DV center to protect yourself both legally and physically so you can plan to protect yourself if you choose to leave.

I also think it still helps to learn the tools for dealing with conflict in a relationship no matter what direction it takes. Both staying together and splitting involves the two of you communicating. Her being triggered by food is something you are aware of and if she is tired and easily triggered then, eating alone and going to bed may be her way of coping. It helps for you to not be emotionally triggered yourself by her coping skills. The less you are emotionally reactive the less drama in your interactions.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Notwendy that it’s imperative to consult a lawyer as well as a DV agency.

Also a book that comes highly recommended is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

[GaGrl]

Good advice for consults.

Protection... .you might want to let your local police department know what you are about to do. "This is my plan, this is the letter I will leave, this is how she could possibly react due to her mental condition... ."

 Then you have something in file should it play out in a false accusation.

[formflier]

And... .and alternative way to think about this.

You can leave the house... .because it's not safe to be in the house.  That is very different than leaving the marriage.

You don't have to tell her ahead of time... .and shouldn't (IMO) tell her ahead of time.

So... if she is yelling or throwing things... leave the house... stay at a hotel.  Or call the cops... .or take other action to handle "that moment".

Don't put yourself through more "moments" because you are sorting our your long term plan.

Ditto on the consults... .but again... .if a moment comes before a consult happens... take action.  You are in the relatively good position of not having been hit... .yet.

FF

[slowsteve]

Or the next time she explodes. Call the police. Have her taken to ER. And pack up and get out. Good luck.

[SweetCharlotte]

She snapped at me, in a threatening way.  I felt like telling her I was going to leave (potentially in the next week) but I held my tongue.

Now my worry is my safety.  And my question is should I tell her i'm leaving and pack and leave and certainly be verbally attacked and quite possibly physically too.  Or should I secretly pack while she is away at work and leave safely (like a coward). Originally I had wanted to be decent and tell her my intention but now i am not so sure

When she snapped at you, did she threaten you with violence? If she did, that counts as a form of assault, allowing you to get an order of protection. It sounds like you are going to need one at some point.

Law enforcement personnel would recommend your leaving while she is out of the house with no advance warning and taking everything that is yours with you (never return for something you forgot—that is the most deadly moment of any breakup).

Legal experts, however, would caution you that leaving the home when there is no order of protection (which would take her out of the home, anyway) leaves you vulnerable to a charge of abandonment, which is important if there will be a custody issue (not in your case), if you own your home, or if spousal maintenance may come into play.

So you may wish to do all of the things advised above—document her threatening behavior with law enforcement, consult with the Domestic Violence squad, and hire a divorce attorney—before making your exit. If possible, keep it all quiet and out of sight to maintain the option of leaving while she is at work. There is nothing cowardly about moving out while the partner is away from the home. It would do her a favor as well by not putting her into a situation that could trigger her, and result in her incarceration.

[Ruskin]

Dear all,

Thank you all for your kind time comments and views.

I guess I am digesting them at the moment and getting my plan together.

To be honest I don’t think I can face another “outburst” and I think a safe withdrawl must be done.  I will work on making an appointment to see a lawyer tomorrow, I hope.

Some initial packing will be done this afternoon

With my thanks

[formflier]

Some initial packing will be done this afternoon
 

How will this be explained?  What is the value of the stuff you are packing.

I would advise making digital copies of important papers... and making sure they are "in the cloud"... so they are really yours.

Make sure you have the real birth certificate, marriage certificate, social security card, passports, etc etc as well as digital copies. 

Deeds insurance policies, bank statements (joint and individual).  All getting all of that organized and digitized will make your life better... later.  Regardless of stay or go.

Certainly any emotionally significant things (special book from your family, special pictures)... .consider how to do safekeeping for those.

Hang in there man... .talk to L ASAP. 

FF

[Red5]

... .getting all of that organized and digitized will make your life better... .later.  Regardless of stay or go.

... .all good advice Ruskin,

Think of it this way, if a natural disaster were to come upon you, what would you need to rebuild your life on the other side of it all... .

Any semblance, or threat thereof of physical violence should be taken seriously... .and its certainly not acceptable, or tolerable in the near to long term (relationship).

Think about things clearly here... .and have a plan ready to execute in a moments notice.

Once you initiate your plan to leave, .plan on "crazy" to show up.

Be careful, and mindful... .

Best Regards, Red5

[Ruskin]

Hi Folks

Few days since I posted, emotionally I was a wreck and just trying to deal with the things…

Looks like I ended up going down the fog route

I just couldn’t leave without speaking to her, in the end couldn’t do it to her

The conversation went better than expected probably as I was so distraught when I delivered it, she made an agreement with me and withdrew it about three times in the conversation however

Long story short, she has agreed to go to see the doctor.  She is adamant however that she is going on her own.  I am worried by that tbh, how on earth can she articultate her symptoms and behaviours?

She did offer however that I write a note and she will present it to the doctor, she also offered that she would give her permission to the doctor to speak to me about her – and for me to speak further to the doctor

Why we don’t go together I don’t know – comes to the same thing…………  but going together better direct and no secrets…...    (it is a trust thing on her part)

Last night to be honest I felt awful, what the he** have I got myself into to.  I do plan to keep myself a “get out of jail free card   (monopoly)”
 In that if there is no treatment for behaviour or improvement, I move on

Cant carry on like this

[formflier]

This is a positive step.  I get it that it's not exactly what you wanted... .

Follow through.  We can help you write  a note.  The phrase you need to use is "rule out".

You are asking the doctor to "rule out" certain things as being  a medical issue.  That will take an extra level of effort and likely get a referral to a specialist.

FF

[AskingWhy]

Ruskin, I am glad to hear your update.  Sometimes we move forward by increments.  Leaving is not the easiest thing to do, even though we are desperately unhappy with our BPD partners.

Going to a doctor is a step forward, though pwBPD have a way of charming doctors and therapists.  My uBPD/uNPD H and I went to a therapist, and she was eating out of his hand within one session, blaming me for the discord in the marriage, and shouting at me, to boot.

You need to be prepared, though, in that divorce is still an option.  I, too, have my "get out of jail free" card.  Divorce from a Cluster B spouse is far more complex than one from a "normal" person.  I suggest you read the book, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  You can get this for Kindle and read it privately on your phone.  Mr. Eddy is a lawyer as well as a psychotherapist, so gives great perspective into the two-pronged issue of divorcing a pwBPD.  Mr. Eddy does NOT, however, recommend disclosing that you suspect your spouse has a personality disorder such as BPD.

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

Be prepared and open-eyed.   





 

[Ruskin]

This is a positive step.  I get it that it's not exactly what you wanted... .

Follow through.  We can help you write  a note.  The phrase you need to use is "rule out".

You are asking the doctor to "rule out" certain things as being  a medical issue.  That will take an extra level of effort and likely get a referral to a specialist.

FF

Thank you Formflier

Thanks for your kind offer of a few pointers reference a note, I may try and run a few things past you, I have noted the comment of ruling things out, I can see the importance of that comment, thank you

Yes one step at a time

[Ruskin]

You need to be prepared, though, in that divorce is still an option.  I, too, have my "get out of jail free" card.  Divorce from a Cluster B spouse is far more complex than one from a "normal" person.  I suggest you read the book, "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."  You can get this for Kindle and read it privately on your phone.  Mr. Eddy is a lawyer as well as a psychotherapist, so gives great perspective into the two-pronged issue of divorcing a pwBPD.  Mr. Eddy does NOT, however, recommend disclosing that you suspect your spouse has a personality disorder such as BPD.

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

Be prepared and open-eyed.  

Thank you Askingwhy  Yes the complexity of the issues we see and live with such partners is a real challenge.  I am beginning to see the complexity of it all and see that borderline personality disorder is even hard to spot by professionals.

I do hope that a doctor or specialist does not sit my wife down and basically ask the dsm diagnosis criteria

“do you have abandonment issues”  -  no  (hates to be alone and some of the worst episodes occur when she perceived my attentions are on some other family member, my mothe my sister. Originally we were due to move to be closer to my family (neither of us have family near at the moment) but after the above episodes she wants us away from all family and reacts badly if I wish spend time with mine (500 miles away)
“Do you problems with self image” -  no   (my wife for example has the outer persona of a tough achieving aggressive woman but is most often like a small child and is happiest sourrounded by cuddely pets and toys and is very sensitive ---   she just loves the all female action heros on tv – I can only guess she wants to portrait being tough like them)
And so on…………

The situation can be so delicate.  If my wife is anything to go with, they are not aware of their issues to a large extent.

Thank you for your comment and book recommendation and how to read it!  

Last weekend when we were driving somewhere I had been listening to “stop walking on egg shells” the audio version, well as we sat in the car started the engine, my phone connected to the car blue-tooth and the book started playing……  silly me... the words that played could not be recognised as anything in particular though, but that was close.  I should learn from that one.

Hope life treating you well this week

ps funnily enough, coincidently  i just bought y first kindle earlier this week, should be with me real soon

[Red5]

Good morning Ruskin!

It is a good thing that your wife is going to see someone... .I wish that my own wife would, but I don’t hold out much hope of that eventuality ever coming to pass.

Knowledge is power and peace of mind... .learn all you can about BPD and how it effects the relationship... .often times when the very worst behaviors are on parade, it is very helpful, almost comforting that perhaps you, me; we the Non’s may have some understanding as to “why”.

Yes... .it is highly advisable to ensure that your wife does not know that you are “reading all about it”, most times this is quite threatening to the person who is BPD... .so cover your tracks accordingly.

Kind regards, Red5   

[Ruskin]

Good morning Ruskin!

It is a good thing that your wife is going to see someone ... .I wish that my own wife would, but I don’t hold out much hope of that eventuality ever coming to pass.

Knowledge is power and peace of mind ... .learn all you can about BPD and how it effects the relationship ... .often times when the very worst behaviors are on parade, it is very helpful, almost comforting that perhaps you, me; we the Non’s may have some understanding as to “why”.

Yes ... .it is highly advisable to ensure that your wife does not know that you are “reading all about it”, most times this is quite threatening to the person who is BPD... .so cover your tracks accordingly.

Kind regards, Red5   

Thank you Red5, yes noted... .  yes a lot of this seems to need to be kept under wraps... .  sometimes you feel like sharing some of the stuff we learn,

my wife got up this morning and was just hoping that nothing would trigger her, it's crazy on my part but i can get real anxious when she gets up, or comes in the house after work, almost like stabs of pain in the heart when she starts to blame or pass unsuual comments.

Had one blame incident when she was cooking something and then one paranoid comment type thing after i asked her a question... .  it's a funny old world... happily she managed to get up and out the door with for a walk with a friend, it was touch and go that the mood and the day was going to get blown up for a while... .  i guess it might be worth jpurnalling these little things but i have tried to note the big things in the last few months... .

Hope things well with you Red5, have a nice weekend.  I read you said you don't hold out too much hope for your own wife investigating her issues, i do not know too much of your struggles, but must be a little hope for everyone... .
all the best

[Red5]

... .i can get real anxious when she gets up, or comes in the house after work, almost like stabs of pain in the heart when she starts to blame or pass unsuual comments.

Yes me2!... .I do this all the time as well, it’s like ptsd or something... .  conditioning ,

It’s sad to say but most times I actually dread any inteacion from her... .it takes a long time to develope this mind set and reaction in a person... .

The difference between ptsd and cptsd is that with the first, these reactions are triggered by a sole event maybe like a car crash, the second is the result of constant negative interaction... .like having to ride in a car everyday with someone who drives dangerously and recklessly... .

Yes, when I’m “Black”... .I do dread  the inevitable interactions with my uBPDw, .the sound of her high heels across the wood floor, the sound of the garage door opener when she gets home... .makes my heart jump... .and not in a pleasent way,

... .and journaling is a good thing to keep the “Non” from forgetting the negative treatment during the intermittent positive reward periods... .

Red5

[empath]

Hi Ruskin,

From what my counselor-type friends have said, they don't really like to make a diagnosis for personality disorders for a lot of reasons. It's hard for pwBPD to maintain the stability that they need to stick with therapy. I think the biggest reason that my h started feeling better is that he moved out of our home and didn't have to deal with his issues.

Kindle was a great way for me to read what I needed to while my h was home.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband has started doing therapy, much to my surprise. Frankly I don’t expect much change, but any improvement is welcome.

PwBPD often quit therapy when deeply held criteria is challenged—for example feeling victimhood and that other people aren’t interested.

That’s one of my husband’s issues and to my eye, much of his thinking is projection. He can be highly critical of people, can behave in an imperious way, and really doesn’t seem to be able to set aside his own issues to really see other people’s perspectives. But he thinks everything is about others judging him.

[formflier]

Cat,

I'd be interested to hear more about your hubby heading to therapy. 

Did he tell you "why"?  Did he announce a goal?

Might be worthy of a separate thread.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I haven't asked and he hasn't said what he wants to talk about. I was blindsided when he told me that he was going to see a psychologist that he'd seen a couple of years ago.

When he first saw him for therapy, it seemed that what was bothering him was not feeling included by his sisters. They live on the opposite coast, have adult children and now some grandchildren and they're really wrapped up in their kids' lives, as anyone would be. He doesn't feel like they think of him as a "real person" because he doesn't have offspring.

IDK what he expects. They occasionally call him and at holidays and birthdays send gifts. They even invite him when they go on excursions with a bunch of people--like a recent African safari trip. He didn't want to go, so that's on him, but he doesn't see it that way. It seems pretty narcissistic to me to think that they should make such a big deal over him, but whatever... .

So a few years ago, around the time he was seeing this P, I was really having some major issues with him and I was very hopeful that therapy would help. He only went a few times, then told me that both he and the P thought his issues were fixed.

What he didn't know was that I had called up the P and said that I knew it was sort of a violation of protocol, but that my husband can present so well that it might not be apparent, but that he fits many criteria of BPD. The P was very receptive to what I said and I explained several of the criteria I've observed and we had a good chat.

Later I asked my own P how that information might have been received and she said that if anyone had done that with one of her clients, she'd be very appreciative.

To demonstrate how I've changed in the last few years, in the past, if he were to tell me that he was starting therapy, I would have been all over it. Why? What are you gonna talk about? How can I help? etc.

This time, what I said was, "Oh, I remember, you really liked that guy." Then I said nothing else. I figured he could tell me more if he wanted to.

[Ruskin]

Yes me2!... .I do this all the time as well, it’s like ptsd or something ... .  conditioning ,

It’s sad to say but most times I actually dread any inteacion from her... .it takes a long time to develope this mind set and reaction in a person ... .

The difference between ptsd and cptsd is that with the first, these reactions are triggered by a sole event maybe like a car crash, the second is the result of constant negative interaction ... .like having to ride in a car everyday with someone who drives dangerously and recklessly ... .

Yes, when I’m “Black” ... .I do dread  the inevitable interactions with my uBPDw, ... .the sound of her high heels across the wood floor, the sound of the garage door opener when she gets home... .makes my heart jump ... .and not in a pleasent way,

... .and journaling is a good thing to keep the “Non” from forgetting the negative treatment during the intermittent positive reward periods ... .

Red5

Cheers Red5 for your comments, hmm yes it is a strange one when the sight of out loved one induces such feelings!

Yes i am going to keep up my journalling, tbh so far it is not structured well, time to get it straight especially if i need present it to anyone else to help show behaviour and symptoms of my uBPDW

Thanks

[Ruskin]

Hi Ruskin,

 I think the biggest reason that my h started feeling better is that he moved out of our home and didn't have to deal with his issues.

Kindle was a great way for me to read what I needed to while my h was home.

Thank you Empath, kindle device arrived now! also find audible app useful!

Yes i can appreciate what you have said about your H, i could see my W operating relatively well on her own, away from all the triggers... .

[Ruskin]

My husband has started doing therapy, much to my surprise. Frankly I don’t expect much change, but any improvement is welcome.

PwBPD often quit therapy when deeply held criteria is challenged—for example feeling victimhood and that other people aren’t interested.

That’s one of my husband’s issues and to my eye, much of his thinking is projection. He can be highly critical of people, can behave in an imperious way, and really doesn’t seem to be able to set aside his own issues to really see other people’s perspectives. But he thinks everything is about others judging him.

Great News Cat
Hope proves useful

Yes from the little i have learned of BPD i can appreciate your comment about those in therapy often leaving it when core beliefs are challenged...

hears hoping for all on their journeys

[Red5]

Yes from the little i have learned of BPD i can appreciate your comment about those in therapy often leaving it when core beliefs are challenged...

It always amazes me the extreme degree that pw/BPD will go to defend these ‘core beliefs’.

Seems the person who is BPD will enable the destruction of everything they profess to hold dear in order to ‘preserve’ the skewed sanctity of their core beliefs... .I was witnessing this in the first person only last evening.

Yes, they will stick to it, until everything comes crashing down round them, collateral damage ‘be damned’.

All very interesting and yet perplexing to witness at the same time.

Red5

[Enabler]

Howdy,

My W attended individual T for a year post a disastrous round of couples counselling. Notes I saw suggested that initially the sessions were great, focusing on me being abusive, her having to get out of the relationship etc etc... .then something changed and the T was asking about visions my W had seen in what I can only imagine were emotional dissociation, this was not long after her buying a pregnancy test in the drug store below the T office directly after one of her weekly sessions.

I didn't see any notes after that point but suddenly she stopped going after a year. I didn't say anything for a few months then one day when we were talking about my weekly T sessions I asked if she still went... .she said "It reached a natural conclusion". Funny, she went to T because I was abusive (apparently), she needed to get herself out of the relationship, we'd been to legal mediation, she'd been given work to do to apply for the divorce, she hadn't done that work and hadn't applied for the D... .yet 'they' believed it had come to a natural conclusion... .what was that natural conclusion I wonder?

Incidentally my T was at the same practice as her T, I asked him if it was okay to contact her T and enlighten her. He strongly advised me against doing so and said it wouldn't be taken well. I have no idea if he spoke to her, I'd imagine that to be very unethical.

Enabler

[Red5]

... .(I) asked him if it was okay to contact her T and enlighten her. He strongly advised me against doing so and said it wouldn't be taken well. I have no idea if he spoke to her, I'd imagine that to be very unethical.

... .in the last months of my first marriage (2005), I was on a six month WESTPAC deployment with my squadron in Iwakuni Japan... .as I began to piece together what was going on back at home, long story... .I found out my s2bex was seeing a counselor in the next town... .so being quite desperate to "save" everyone, and everything I held dear... .I managed to actually get this suspect counselor on the phone, from Japan; to north central back woods Florida USA... .my intent was to try to "help" by offering up any historical source data that I could to maybe get s2bex into the right track for "total healing"... .yes, I was extremely naïve back then.

To make a longer story even shorter... .I was told by the "counselor" to "pack sand"... .to "shove off"... ."to take a long walk off a short pier"... ."to go ____ up a rope".

Oh' well, Red5 learnt another life lesson the hard way... .

So when I got back home to the good ole' USA... .and found out what had happened during my time away... .I decided to, and I wrote her (the counselor) a very strongly worded letter !

So there !

True story !

Yeah... .that's a security breach in most cases to even try to contact the sig/others "T", or "P"... .

I'll never do that again... .knowing what I "know " now... .

I have an appointment with Mr. "T" in about an hour myself... .lots to catch up on, I've not been to see him since Mrs. Florence came to visit us here on the crystal coast... .

Ya'll have a nice day ! 

Red5

[formflier]

Red 5,

Might be best to start a new thread... .but would you be up for telling your story.

What I tried to tell the counselor, what you said in the letter, why you think counselor said to pack sand... etc etc.

Here is the thing... I don't think talking to them is unethical.  I would think they are professional enough to "consider the source" and put the information in the proper context.

I'm in the midst of filing some ethical complaints against prior a "biblical counselor"... .so this type of thing is on my mind.

Anyway... .you would think the counselors would want to pull in all the info they can... .and then make their own judgments.  Said another way... it would seem odd that a counselor would NEVER want to speak to a spouse... .or even be reluctant to do so.

FF

[Red5]

Afternoon FF, and Everyone 

I will do that... .as time permits... .I will go cross eyed trying to tell that forlorn yarn on this iPhone !

I will have sometime at work in the morning... .

Y’all all know I like to run my mouth   

I am also in the ‘midst’ at the moment... .a whole H3LL of a lot has transpired in my grid square in the last 48 hours... .

Had a good visit with Mr. T, .he gave me the “Cool Hand Luke” talk about getting my mind right and not “back sliding”, staying on course and keeping “her” between the navigation markers in the channel... .

I off to now see about selling my boat, y’all have a great day !

Red5