CPS case closure brought out the worst in DD25

[Only Human]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for being here. I've not been posting but I've been reading, reading, reading.

The CPS case was closed and my DD immediately informed me that she plans to move out of state on 11/26 (with a man she met on the internet and has met in person twice) and she will cut off all contact with me. She has really turned up the alienation tactics. For example, after spending time with me, she will get on GS's case about something and say, "I know you're being a brat because you spent time with memaw." She's yelling at him frequently, has ditched any attempts at using any parenting skills she employed during the open CPS case, and he's back to being terrified of her.

Today she sent me a text asking if she could leave to go grocery shopping after GS was asleep. I texted, "Yep =)" When I got home, GS was in the tub and he asked if I could hang out with him. DD was in the bathroom as well. GS was getting rambunctious and bath time was terminated early with DD yelling at GS, "just because memaw comes in here is no reason for you to break all the rules, you know better and you're pushing it." It went downhill from there and GS is in his room with the door closed until he goes to sleep.

She just shouted, "Don't worry mom, I'm not leaving for grocery shopping until he's asleep so you can't say I'm neglecting my son. Nevermind that I haven't eaten in three days, but whatever, I'll just starve!" I'm in my room and debated whether to send her a text (no sense in talking to her right now, I'm as black as black can get) but changed my mind. The text was going to say, "I'm ok with you leaving to go grocery shopping."

I spoke to CPS again today about her behaviors, how she's alienating GS against me, how she's putting him in dangerous situations by introducing him to strange men, how she ignores him, talks on the phone for hours at a time, puts him on time-out dozens of times a day, etc. They told me they would not do anything. They suggested I file for emergency guardianship.

I called an attorney and his reduced fee (I have an employee assistance program) is $4500.00. I'm desperately trying to find the money so I can file this week but don't have much hope of that, sadly.

DD had a 45-minute long screaming match on the phone with the internet boyfriend who she plans to live with, out of state. Unsurprisingly, the bloom is already off the rose and I'm sick to my stomach about all this. I brought GS out to the backyard so he didn't have to listen. I was rewarded with more alienation behavior once GS and I came into the house.

I'm considering writing her a letter. I want her to know that I'm worried about both her and GS. I want her to know that I love her. I want her to know that she is welcome to stay here as long as she is actively seeking treatment. But I fear she will take me up on the offer and not actually seek treatment.

I'm rambling.

~ OH

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

ugh. this is an impossible situation, and its good that youre exploring all of your options.

I'm considering writing her a letter.
... .
But I fear she will take me up on the offer and not actually seek treatment.

its a reasonable concern... .what would you want to say? it might help to write it out, whether or not you send it.

[Only Human]

what would you want to say? it might help to write it out, whether or not you send it.

Thanks for asking, once removed

I was talking to my BF about it and we agreed that attempting to talk to her face to face would be best and to have the letter as a back-up since it's more likely that I won't get three words out before she begins to rage at me. I've left a message for my T, asking for guidance with the letter since my letters tend to be too wordy and sometimes invalidating or angry, blaming, rather than the message I want to get across. "I love you, I'm worried about you, I'm worried about GS, I want to support you in getting treatment."

Here's what I have so far. All input is welcome!

Dear DD,

I want you to know that I'm very worried about you and GS. I see you struggling with parenting him. I get it, he's very challenging. I see you struggling with your friendships, with your family relationships, and your intimate relationships. When we started family counseling, you said you wanted help. I know you want a better life for you and GS. I have done my very best to support you in that goal. I've made mistakes along the way, yes, but your best interest and the best interest of GS have always been very important to me.

I'm very concerned about your plans to move out of state to live with a man you've known for a short period of time and mostly from the internet, to cut off all contact with me and the rest of your family, and to try to get GS to forget about me. I know how much you enjoy your time away from GS and I'm not sure why you would want to cut off contact rather than allow me to give you the breaks you so enjoy. I know you don't like some of the decisions I've made but I've made them because of my concern for you both. If I didn't love you and want the best life for you and GS, I would not be trying so hard to get you the support you need.

When the CPS case was open, I noticed you and GS enjoying a much more pleasant relationship. You were using the parenting tools we learned together and he was responding, you were calmer, he was calmer, and he was happy. Since the CPS case was closed, I've seen a major decline in your tolerance of GS's behavior problems. I also see you trying really hard to turn him against me. I'm sure you know how damaging it is to make a child choose between two people who love him so much. He loves us both and I'm not sure why you're willing to take that away from either of us. I fear that, without support, you will harm him again.

I also worry about GS's behavior. He has trouble regulating his emotions, he hits, bites, scratches, kicks, yells, and breaks things. I fear that without intervention, he will struggle much like you have all these years.

I want you to know I love you with all my heart and you are always welcome to live with me as long as you are getting treatment for your BPD. There is help out there, help that works. You said yourself that you're tired of living this way.

I love you,

~ Mom

[once removed]

its good to work all of this out, and smart move on running it by your T, getting on the same page with your boyfriend, all prudent moves.

its a hard letter to write. what jumps out at me off the bat is the use of "worried" and "concerned", and some JADE.

I'm very concerned about your plans to move out of state to live with a man you've known for a short period of time and mostly from the internet, to cut off all contact with me and the rest of your family, and to try to get GS to forget about me.
... .
I know how much you enjoy your time away from GS and I'm not sure why you would want to cut off contact rather than allow me to give you the breaks you so enjoy. I know you don't like some of the decisions I've made but I've made them because of my concern for you both

given her high levels of resentment and even vindictiveness, i think this may be gasoline on the fire; that she will hear and focus/take away judgment, and respond in some way other than constructively.

there are elements of your letter that touch on positive reinforcement, and id lead with that, take it in a SET direction. if you want her to hear and be receptive (no guarantee of course), its the kind of letter that i think will need to feel less like an ultimatum, and more like an invitation, one where she can save face and let her guard down, a tall order to begin with, for sure.

its a good start. i suspect that theres a great deal in there that were both hard to write and that you want to say. lets see what takes your T and members have on things.

[Only Human]

getting on the same page with your boyfriend.

Oops, BF was for best friend. I'm flying solo on this journey.

Thanks for your feedback. I'll read and try to spot the JADE. I can't think of other words than "worried" and "concerned." Can you share why those words are not good choices?

[Only Human]

I want you to know that I'm very worried about you and GS. I see you struggling with parenting him. I get it, he's very challenging. I see you struggling with your friendships, with your family relationships, and your intimate relationships. When we started family counseling, you said you wanted help. I know you want a better life for you and GS. I have done my very best to support you in that goal. JADE I've made mistakes along the way, yes, but your best interest and the best interest of GS have always been very important to me. JADE

I'm very concerned about your plans to move out of state to live with a man you've known for a short period of time and mostly from the internet, to cut off all contact with me and the rest of your family, and to try to get GS to forget about me. I know how much you enjoy your time away from GS and I'm not sure why you would want to cut off contact rather than allow me to give you the breaks you so enjoy. JADEI know you don't like some of the decisions I've made but I've made them because of my concern for you both. If I didn't love you and want the best life for you and GS, I would not be trying so hard to get you the support you need. JADE

When the CPS case was open, I noticed you and GS enjoying a much more pleasant relationship. You were using the parenting tools we learned together and he was responding, you were calmer, he was calmer, and he was happy. Since the CPS case was closed, I've seen a major decline in your tolerance of GS's behavior problems. I also see you trying really hard to turn him against me. I'm sure you know how damaging it is to make a child choose between two people who love him so much. He loves us both and I'm not sure why you're willing to take that away from either of us. I fear that, without support, you will harm him again.

I also worry about GS's behavior. He has trouble regulating his emotions, he hits, bites, scratches, kicks, yells, and breaks things. I fear that without intervention, he will struggle much like you have all these years.

I want you to know I love you with all my heart and you are always welcome to live with me as long as you are getting treatment for your BPD. There is help out there, help that works. You said yourself that you're tired of living this way.

I love you,

~ Mom

[once removed]

its not the words themselves.

the most benign or loving of words, can be invalidating depending on how we are using them.

if i said to you "im concerned you are screwing up your life" (extreme example. your letter doesnt say that, i know.) or "i worry you are going to fail", what you would hear and focus on would be the latter half of those sentences. you would feel pressure, and you might be inclined to push back.

thats the point im trying to make.

the point youre trying to make is:

"I love you, I'm worried about you, I'm worried about GS, I want to support you in getting treatment."

its a strong message that says it all. perhaps in a few more words, why not just say that?

[Only Human]

Thank you. Yes, I see your point. I'm reading up on S.E.T.

[Only Human]

Hello again,

My T responded and said my letter was well written. She has lots of experience with BPD and lots of experience with my DD, me, and our relationship.

I'm with you, once removed, my letter contains a lot of judgment and is not the message I want to send. I think I'll ditch the whole thing and work toward looking for opportunities to validate and improve communication in the short time we have left together. I'm so afraid that I'll be cut off forever and never see GS again, and that he'll be messed up by her choices, then I get angry, then I forget to show her love. It's obvious that I have my own issues to work on and my pattern has been to focus on fixing others and not myself. (It's easier to clean someone else's house than my own.)

I've been reading up on S.E.T. and it's taken me some time to wrap my head around it. Much like when I learned about using "I" statements, I'm having trouble saying what I want to say without saying, "I get angry when you, blahblahblah."

I'm also seeing the alienation attempts from a different perspective today. DD's statements about "memaw is messing everything up," "every time you spend time with memaw, you're a brat after," "don't worry about memaw, we're moving and you'll never see her again," etc. are triggering to me, put me on the defensive. While her desired audience is me, she instead directs these comments to GS and I'm reacting with my heart instead of my head. Or maybe I'm back in the FOG. I honestly don't know. What I do know is that I'm not taking care of myself, I'm too wrapped up in worry and grief, and I want things to be better with DD and myself.

My work break is over but I would like some feedback on what happened this morning and my thoughts on trying S.E.T. following these events, so I'll be back shortly.

~ OH

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Only Human:  May I ask the age of your GS?

[Only Human]

Hi LotR, he turned 4 in September.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

I think I'll ditch the whole thing

its a first draft, and a very hard subject. usually in a first draft, theres a lot we want to get off of our chests. nothing wrong in doing so, the process can help clarify/filter what we want to say. a final draft, or even an alternative approach, does often wind up looking differently, but the first draft helped clarify that too.

then I forget to show her love. It's obvious that I have my own issues to work on and my pattern has been to focus on fixing others and not myself. (It's easier to clean someone else's house than my own.)
... .
I've been reading up on S.E.T. and it's taken me some time to wrap my head around it. Much like when I learned about using "I" statements, I'm having trouble saying what I want to say without saying, "I get angry when you, blahblahblah."

the thing about the tools that has started to click with me, is that they essentially train us to get in better touch with who we are and arent (and who others are and arent), what we want to say or do, in an authentic and sincere, and even easier way - because the tools dont work if we arent expressing ourselves authentically or sincerely. but the funny thing is, that rarely if ever, happens when we are learning. there are so many stories here where a member starts applying the communication tools and the pwBPD feels condescended to, accuses us of using "therapist speak", we feel like we sound robotic. the whole thing is awkward. thats because it takes practice. just like following the guidelines for a high school or college paper, at first it doesnt fit, or its awkward, or it hampers our style, but then we get it, we excel at it, it makes us better, and its with us for life. in some cases we have to pause and decide which tool we want to pull out to use with which personality style or situation (a little like translating a new language to a native one will always take some processing), but we still use them confidently and naturally.

youll get it. it just takes practice. and its all the harder when the stakes are so high.

I'm also seeing the alienation attempts from a different perspective today.
... .
While her desired audience is me, she instead directs these comments to GS and I'm reacting with my heart instead of my head.

its hard to react to that kind of passive aggression constructively. its more of a "dont take the bait/dont make things worse" kind of situation. the constructive part(s), you do at other times, in other ways, like you mentioned... .any ideas where to start?

[Only Human]

After much thought about this morning's events, I've decided to not address it at all. While GS was present, DD was rambling about how she needs a routine w/GS, I have changed my routine and it's messing with their routine. She understands that when they move out, part of my life is going to change a lot, but her whole life is going to change a lot. I responded, "I hear you," then, "Your message is clear," then I didn't respond at all when it was obvious she wasn't going to stop talking.

Originally I thought, "She's got some good points, I have changed my routine, GS is acting out due to my frequent appearances." I considered attempting to communicate that I appreciated her sharing her needs with me without raging but have since remembered that I set a boundary many weeks ago - I won't engage with her when she's berating me. It seems she does this most frequently when GS is present. When I say, "I won't discuss this with you unless we're alone," she responds, "We are never alone." An obvious untruth as GS attends preschool, naps, and sleeps at night.

~ OH

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Hi OH,

I'm just catching up. I am sorry things have gotten worse. It sounds like you're managing it well. It's good to hear you're sticking to your boundaries and not engagiAang her when she's belligerent.

I can hear how worried you are for your GS about her moving in with her internet boyfriend. That sounds like something my daughter would do. 

Let us know how you're doing

Do you think the relationship with this guy will last? And if it fails, do you think she would ask you if she could move back in?

How frustrating that cps don't do anything! And even more so that your DD has returned to her old ways. 

[once removed]

I considered attempting to communicate that I appreciated her sharing her needs with me
... .
but have since remembered that I set a boundary many weeks ago
... .
When I say, "I won't discuss this with you unless we're alone," she responds, "We are never alone."

sometimes our boundaries (or our values) can be rigid. they can, in ways, at times, affect our ability to restore relationships (https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)

now, im not saying "engage your daughter when she is berating you". you dont want to validate the invalid. you dont want to subject yourself to disrespect or teach her that its okay to speak to you that way.

i am saying:

1. its (this passive aggression) what she knows. right now, its her language. tensions are high.

2. there are lines within lines of levels of disrespect. theres calling someone a jerk vs (screaming) calling them a     

2. shutting it down is not connecting you to/with her or working.

3. there might be other ways

it sounds like some of what she was saying, between the lines, was valid to you. which parts? whats she saying between the lines? what part of it can you build on?

[Panda39]

DD's statements about "memaw is messing everything up," "every time you spend time with memaw, you're a brat after," "don't worry about memaw, we're moving and you'll never see her again,"

I see this as projection if you switch the pronouns from you to her you really see it... ."I'm" messing everything up and every time you spend time with "me", you're a brat afterwards.

This is about how she feels about herself not about how she feels about you.  She can't handle those feelings (shame) so she projects them on to you so she can be the victim and blame someone else.

Originally I thought, "She's got some good points, I have changed my routine, GS is acting out due to my frequent appearances." I considered attempting to communicate that I appreciated her sharing her needs with me without raging but have since remembered that I set a boundary many weeks ago - I won't engage with her when she's berating me.

Although when you were in the moment it might not have been the right time, you might still go back after things cool down a bit and give her that validation.

It seems she does this most frequently when GS is present. When I say, "I won't discuss this with you unless we're alone," she responds, "We are never alone." An obvious untruth as GS attends preschool, naps, and sleeps at night.

I've never thought of a 4 year old being on the Karpman Triangle but that is what the drama in front of your grandson sounds like.

From your daughter's perspective you are the persecutor, she is the victim, and he is if not the rescuer - will be on her side.

More on the Karpman Triangle... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

Your suggestion to talk when you are alone is a good one, it moves your grandson off the triangle.  Next time maybe set a specific time to have the discussion... .like during GS's nap or after he's gone to bed.  That way your daughter will feel that you have heard her and that you want to hear her point of view and that you have scheduled the time to do that.  This will also give you both a break and time to bring things down a notch. Then you could bring that validation you had above back around and tell her.

Just as a side note about letter writing, bringing it here was an awesome idea.  I did that once too.  I thought I wrote a very sensitive, well written letter to my SO's DD when her uBPDmom did something horrendous.  It took 3 days and a lot of conversation before I figured out the letter was really all about me   ... .ultimately after 3 days I whittled a 2 page letter down to 2 sentences and put them in an appropriate greeting card.  It was well received.  So if you decide to go the letter writing route again, run it by the folks here it can be really helpful in terms of content (and the length of your letter   )

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Only Human]

I can't thank you all enough for your feedback. I've got a lot to think about. I really want to repair my relationship with DD and you're all helping me to see my part in continuing the conflict. Man, this is tough stuff.

I'm working today and have gotten behind due to my obsession over all this. I'll be back later.

~ OH

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi OH:  Our DD19 is obsessive with the pets in our house in several ways.
We bought her a small dog when she was 15.  The small dog "took to me" and my DD is extremely jealous, and has even abused the dog in the past FOR loving me more than her.  Even now, when she feels she has come a great distance (and she has, but still, and the reason I said it is how she see's things or feels directly corresponds to how she is acting or if she is reacting all over the place. 
We also have two big dogs and I have learned to say things about how much they love her when she is around them.  She really soaks that stuff up... .I also make a big deal about how the little dog is around me all the time, and help her see, without thinking in any way he would see me as more lovable than her, why he acts as he does. 

I could go on and on about things I do with the pets and her, but still, it is about how she see's it, because if she perceives rejection by a pet, especially if it demonstrates affection for me immediately after, it can get really crazy around here... .honestly!  So, suffice it to say I actively speak to how she is with the pets (make mention and notice how she has always connected with them and so forth).

The result I get is that she acts the "part" I imply she is.  If I say she is so loving with them, she acts quite loving with them... .This is not by mistake, it's been years of this and I know my way around this topic with my DD. 

Noticing things she does get right with her child might be the best thing you could do.  Engaging and asking questions about her "positive goals" with her child might repair what she perceives as damage that has been done in the past (ie:  calling CPS). 
Also, not letting it be about you/her child VERSUS her/her child... .a competition thing... .but more of a "we are so lucky to have him!"  ... .anything you can do to make note of the slightest good parenting she does, and then reinforcing what you "see" every time you can... .she will assume the role and even feel more positive in it... .embrace those titles and act the part until she becomes the part more. 

I realize she is leaving and wanting to split your family up, but if you get on this and are able to stick with it, she may change her mind, or if she does go and something comes up with the stranger man, she may want to come back to your house, because of the changes you made right before she left.

Sorry my typing is like speaking... .but I know if her son is like our pets, this is a competition on several levels, and my goal with my DD is to encourage her to act better towards our pets and not punish us all if our pets show affection for me, so I downplay those times when they migrate to me... .(keep it natural, not overly flowery, this has to be consistently done over time is how it was done in our home).  The end result is, the pet "jealousy" has lessened significantly here, and they are all our pets and sometimes do "crazy things"  ... .which is what we call it when they "aren't in the mood to be pet by her" or whatever... .I make sure she doesn't take strong offense to it by reminding her they are pets and just value so much their sleep, or it's a part of their personality that when they were/are sleeping, that one in particular just absolutely won't let ANYONE pet it... .that type of "stuff."

Anyway, I hope I've made sense... .I do think that your compliments where you can give them will help her to not be so defensive with you. I also think the more you "notice" and can comment on, regularly, the more settled your DD will get. I hope so... .at least that's what happened here.  Hard to accept a family member would be jealous of another (your DD with your GS), but it's very possible she is... .jealous of a better bond with you/him than her/him... .What do you think?