A decent day w/DD and then she exploded at GS

[Only Human]

 
Today was a decent day. I worked from home and didn't go out a bunch of times to disrupt the routine.

Outside my bedroom office, all was quiet/pleasant, with some timeouts in between and I worked non-stop from 7:00 until about 10:00, when they came back from spending about 40 minutes at the park. I heard DD tell GS he was really good at the park and she went into her room to get a trinket from the "prize box." GS said he didn't like the choice and he was going to throw it away. DD told him, "Bummer if you don't like it, but that's what you're getting. If you don't want it, I can give it to another child but you can't throw it away." He said he wanted to give it to (child's name) and DD said, "Ok, you can give it to (child's name) next time you see her." GS said, "No, I think I want to keep it." DD said, "That's a good choice." At 10:30, this text exchange happened:

Me: I really heard what you said yesterday about routine for GS. I've got time to take a short break and wanted to check with you before I came out. Also, I really like how you resolved that conflict with GS over the surprise for having a good park experience.

DD: Now is the perfect time to come out but heads up, wind-down time is at 11:30.

When I got out to the living room she told me, "I'm doing wind-down time at 11:30 since he doesn't have preschool." She went on to tell me that GS isn't going back to preschool because he got kicked out for his behavior.* She told me she thinks GS is mildly autistic, she hates everyone who suggested that he might be, but she's thinking it's a possibility. She then listed the behaviors that she thinks are either autistic or ADD or something, how she doesn't want to discount an autism diagnosis, if he's autistic, it's very mild, but he could be... .etc. I said, "I've got some thoughts, wanna talk about it when he's napping?" She said, "Yeah." UGH! My unspoken thoughts were, "I think he's acting out because of the tension between us." As soon as I said, "I've got some thoughts, wanna talk about it when he's napping?" I regretted it. I couldn't think of anything validating to say, nothing. I spent about 30 minutes w/GS then went back into my room to work.

*She later she told me they didn't kick him out but she felt pressured to disenroll him because the teacher told her the other kids were terrified of GS after he got angry and threw a chair. And, since preschool is closed next week for Thanksgiving and since she's moving the following Monday, she figured why not take him out now.

At noon, GS knocked on my door for his nap time hug and kiss. I waited until he was asleep then went into the garage and told her, "(my BFF) is coming for lunch, so the front door is unlocked... ." she cut me off and said, "I don't wanna have our talk during nap time, I'd rather do it after he goes to bed tonight. I really need this break to myself" or something similar. I said, "Ok, no problem." Then she said, "I can't even remember what we were going to talk about." I said, "You said you think GS has autism," she said, "Oh yeah, let's do it tonight instead." I was grateful because I didn't know what "thoughts" I would share since I didn't wanna say, "I think he's acting out because of the tension between us, not autism."

My BFF and I talked about it and decided that I could say something like, "You were talking about GS potentially being autistic and I said I had some thoughts but then I thought about my thoughts and they were not validating, so I changed my mind. But I wanted to give you a chance to talk more about it if you wanted to." If anyone has some input on this, please let me know!

The rest of the day/evening went well. GS wanted me to hang out after his nap but I still had work to do so I told him I'd be out after I finished my work.

Background: Every Thursday evening, my BFF and I meet at a local restaurant and work on ourselves for a couple of hours. We talk about the things we've learned here, we talk about our individual therapy appointments, how things are going in our lives, where we can improve, what's working, etc.

Around 4:00 DD and I had this text exchange:

Me: I'm doing my Thursday (BFF) thing at 6 tonight. So I'll be leaving around 5:45. I had planned to hang w/GS for 30-40 minutes. I could come out now and hang out until 4:30 or I could come out at 5ish and leave right after for my (BFF) thing. What do you think?

DD: I think leaving to (BFF) thing will be better only cause then there's not you like going back in the room and then back out again for leaving. It might minimize the tantrums I think.

Me: I agree. I'll be out in about an hour.

DD: OK

Background: DD receives public assistance. I work for the public assistance office. I was her Authorized Representative earlier this year to help her with making calls to get information, paperwork, and what not. DD gets money for doing live-streaming. She told me it's just a little bit of money, less than $100.00 per month and not even every month. On a couple of occasions, she had asked, and I agreed, to transfer $20.00 from her pay-pal to my pay-pal and give her cash. At one point, I reminded her that she must report the money from live-streaming even if it's just a little bit of money. I assured her that it wouldn't affect her benefits since it's just a little bit, she didn't want to be accused of welfare fraud. She argued, "How will they find out? It's going into a bank account they don't even know about." I said, "They always find out!" She told me she knows what she's doing and told me to butt out. I said I'm good with butting out but could no longer do the pay-pal thing as it might put my job at risk.

A little before 5:00, we had this text exchange:

DD: If I give you cash in a transfer from my pay-pal to you could you get me a pack of cigarettes? I was gonna ask to walk then remembered you're going out. Or maybe even use my card for them if that is easier for you? I realize you said you wouldn't help me I'm just asking cause I don't see another way tonight.

(I had a little bit of panic over this... .I almost sent, "I don't want to have anything to do with the pay-pal money. But I will loan you enough for cigarettes.")

Me: I want to help you. I may have enough cigs to get you through to tomorrow when you can get to the store.

DD: Ok. Thank you.
DD: Or I could Uber there when you watch him for 30?
DD: And uber back, obviously.

Me: Sure, that'll work. I'm getting dressed and will come out.

All went well and I left at 5:45.

I got home around 8:30 and DD was on the couch. She said, "I don't know if he's asleep, so let me know." I walked down the hall to my room and GS said, "Memaw," And I said, "good night GS, I love you." I went back into the living room and said, "Did you hear that?" She said, "Yeah" exasperated. Perhaps she was angry that I interacted w/GS. I walked back to my room and he said, "Memaw" again and DD said loudly, "GS, go to sleep!"

All hell broke loose soon after that. I heard her in his room loudly telling him, "Go to sleep or I'm going to shut the door. Stop playing, go to sleep! I'm either going to stay in here until you go to sleep or I'm going to shut the door. That's enough, etc." Then she walked out and shut the door. GS was crying. A few minutes later, DD raged outside his door, "GS go to sleep now! The door is locked until you go to sleep, I can't do this, I can't, I'm done!" Then she stormed into the garage. GS was crying in his room, "Please stop doing that, please stop doing that." It broke my heart!

After about 10 minutes in the garage, she came back inside and I could hear her on the phone. She was saying something about, "I just don't like that the girl was talking to you" or something. I assume she's talking to the internet b/f as I've heard her discuss how she doesn't like other girls talking to him because they know she's his g/f. I thought - - "oh, there's the trigger."

About 30 minutes later I texted, "Let me know when you're ready and I'll come out."

She came into my room and we had the following exchange:

DD: I don't want to do it tonight, I just can't. We can do it another time, not tonight.

Me: Ok, no problem. I can see you're really upset.

DD: Yeah, I'm pissed that I yelled at him, I should have just quietly shut the door. I should have shut the door before you got home, he wasn't going to sleep, even after I spent 20 minutes in there rubbing his back. I've been doing this thing where I stay in his room after stories, I don't really want to but I do and I did that tonight but he didn't settle down so I left. He just wasn't going to sleep, I should have shut the door earlier but I wanted to give him a chance, and then I lost it."

Me: ahhh (wishing I had something validating to say) Ok, no problem. If you change your mind, I'm here.

DD: Maybe we could do it this weekend or, (GS's father-figure) is taking him for a couple of hours tomorrow. I need a break, without preschool I just need a break so I think (GS's father-figure) will take him for a couple of hours, like two hours, like a mini preschool. Are you off tomorrow?

Me: Yes (still wishing I had something to say)

DD: Ok, maybe tomorrow. I've got a lot to do, I want to pack and stuff. I've been wanting to pack but just got the boxes yesterday because my rides kept falling through but I got some yesterday and so I think I'll pack. I don't know, maybe we could do it tomorrow while he's gone."

Me: OK (feeling lame because SAY SOMETHING FOR GOODNESS SAKE!)

This is the most we've spoken to each other since I gave her 30 days notice on 10/27/2018. I am feeling positive about some aspects of our interactions today. She spoke and didn't berate me. I listened and didn't invalidate her. GS spent less time in timeout today. I was able to enjoy my time with GS without DD making passive-aggressive comments. So there's that.

Goodnight Family. Thanks for being here.

~ OH

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Merlot]

Hi OH

Wow!  your calmness and ability to not be drawn into anything has allowed your DD to talk through things.  You are also sticking to your boundaries for her moving out, I could see how this is so difficult.  Well done to you   I will be taking a leaf out of your book.  

Your GS will always know you are there for him and love him no matter where he is.

I can also say that it must be so difficult to have your DD flip her reality onto your GS where there is no accountability and responsibility for her own behaviours, rather it's "autism".  I will be really interested to hear how your discussion goes with her about this, she is obviously keen to discuss it.  It may be worth just stating that you are interested in what she has to say and if you can't find anything validating, maybe just empathise but find a truth about your GS that supports both your DD and GS .

I'm sure maintaining your composure, even if the conversation does go in the direction you like, will keep you in contact with your DD and GS.  This is a baby step with massive impact.

Thinking of you

Merlot

[Only Human]

I can also say that it must be so difficult to have your DD flip her reality onto your GS where there is no accountability and responsibility for her own behaviours, rather it's "autism"

Very difficult indeed. Here's an interesting comment she made a few days ago: "He's become more violent and I haven't spanked him since you called CPS, so you can't blame it on that." Sounds to me like she's thought about whether her violence toward him could be the cause of his violence toward others. I once shared with her that hitting kids teaches kids to hit. Too bad she discounted her culpability here. On the bright side, she's thinking about it. My hope is that, if she's committed to not spanking him again (she told me the other day, "I'm frustrated but I'm not going to spank him") he will stop acting out physically and that she will see that. Hope.

She told me today that she may not have time to talk today. I wonder if she's not eager due to her fear that I will lecture or invalidate. I'm not pushing it. I've got an appt with my T this afternoon. Maybe she'll be willing to talk after GS is in bed tonight.

Thanks,  Merlot, for responding. I'm so glad I'm here.

~ OH

[once removed]

I could say something like, "You were talking about GS potentially being autistic and I said I had some thoughts but then I thought about my thoughts and they were not validating, so I changed my mind. But I wanted to give you a chance to talk more about it if you wanted to."

i think what she will probably hear is: "i have some thoughts, but youre not going to like them, so im going to keep them to myself."

what are your thoughts? how might you put them on the table?

depending, an alternative is just to listen and ask validating questions, be a sounding board.

DD: Yeah, I'm pissed that I yelled at him, I should have just quietly shut the door. I should have shut the door before you got home, he wasn't going to sleep, even after I spent 20 minutes in there rubbing his back. I've been doing this thing where I stay in his room after stories, I don't really want to but I do and I did that tonight but he didn't settle down so I left. He just wasn't going to sleep, I should have shut the door earlier but I wanted to give him a chance, and then I lost it."

Me: ahhh (wishing I had something validating to say)

saying nothing is okay. she figured out what she ought to do next time. alternatively, you can validate that.

This is the most we've spoken to each other since I gave her 30 days notice on 10/27/2018. I am feeling positive about some aspects of our interactions today. She spoke and didn't berate me. I listened and didn't invalidate her.

it did go pretty well. definitely a positive development, one you can build on.

[Only Human]

Today, DD told me the preschool teacher told her GS said he wanted to kill everybody. This came in the context of, "Oh, I am so relieved. GS said something at preschool and I was freaking out because I thought maybe he was a psychopath. But I just realized why he said it so now I'm not worried." I said, "Oh?" She said, "Yeah, he said he wanted to kill all the children. I was worried that he could be a psychopath like his dad. But I think he said it because I talk to him like an adult, I tell him the truth. Like today, he was asking why I was putting holes in the lid of the jar for the ladybugs. I told him, "Because they need to breathe. You know how when you hold your breath, it makes you feel like you're going to pass out? Well, if we don't poke holes in the lid, the ladybugs can't breathe. If they can't breathe, they'll die. Not breathing is like poison to them. You know how we put poison on bugs to kill them? That's what it would be like for the ladybugs. Not breathing is like putting poison on them and it could kill them."

what are your thoughts? how might you put them on the table?

My thoughts are:

• GS's violent behavior is a concern and may not have anything to do with autism.
• GS has told me he likes to hurt people.
  
• GS's violent behavior is understandable, given DD's violence toward him

I have no idea how to put them on the table.

depending, an alternative is just to listen and ask validating questions, be a sounding board.

I also have no idea how to ask validating questions so I'm currently reading this thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

Thanks, as always, once removed, for making me think =)

~ OH

[Only Human]

i think what she will probably hear is: "i have some thoughts, but youre not going to like them, so im going to keep them to myself."

You're right. I look forward to the day when this stuff is easier for me.

I tried my hand at validating questions just now. GS didn't get a nap today so wind-down time (tablet and lying down for 30 minutes before bed) started at 6:10. At about 6:40, DD came into my room and said, "I don't know what to do, he fell asleep on the couch and when I tried to pick him up to put him in bed, he screamed. What should I do?"

Here's, roughly, how the rest of the conversation went:

Me: Oh, he fell asleep at wind down time?

DD: Yeah, which is good, I don't have to read stories. I started to pick him up and he screamed and said, "Put me down!" so I did. Now I don't know what to do.

Me: I don't know, what are your options?

DD: I don't know. I've never been good at picking him up when he's sleeping so I don't do it. I just want to leave him there but what if he wakes up in the middle of the night? He probably won't wake up, he's out like a light, but what if he gets cold and that wakes him up? I'm just mad because I didn't let him take a nap because I wanted him to go to bed early but not this early. Now he'll be up at the crack of dawn. Wait, tomorrow is memaw and GS day, so he'll knock on your door. That's good.

Me: So things didn't go as planned... .

DD: No, I don't know what to do. Maybe I'll straighten my hair and try again to put him in bed. I don't know why he screamed. Oh, maybe he's cold. He doesn't have a blanket. Maybe my picking him up made him colder. I'm gonna get him a blanket.

Me: Sounds like a good idea
( I say this a fair amount, "Sounds like a good idea," and it makes me feel I'm guiding her to the option I want her to choose. Would "There ya go" be better here? I think so... .)

I count this as a successful interaction. She's in the garage, live-streaming. The autism conversation may never happen.

~ OH

p.s. GS is in his bed 

[wendydarling]

You're doing great OH, that is a successful interaction, it's amazing how you can follow your DD problem solving out loud here.

I'm gonna get him a blanket' was her decision, her choice at the time, yes?
'Sounds like a good idea'... .… OH you say you feel as though you're guiding to what you want, is that what you wanted... .her to get a blanket? I can't see you leading, suggesting? Great minds can think alike   takes others longer to get there, I include myself there 

How did getting GS into bed go?

[Only Human]

I'm gonna get him a blanket' was her decision, her choice at the time, yes?
'Sounds like a good idea'... .… OH you say you feel as though you're guiding to what you want, is that what you wanted... .her to get a blanket? I can't see you leading, suggesting?

Thanks for asking, it helps me to see things more realistically. Getting him a blanket wasn't what I wanted, I didn't even think of that as a solution at all. What I meant is... .I often keep silent, or say, "That's an option, what are some other options?" when she voices a possible option that would not be my solution. Then, when she says something I agree is a good idea, I say, "good idea." Does that make sense? So, I'm not guiding her, per se. I'm just keeping quiet, or asking, "are there other options?" until she says something I agree with.

Thinking back on the conversation, I didn't say, "Good idea" until she had made a decision. So I think I'm being too critical of myself. In my desire to do this right, I'm getting stuck in wanting to do it perfectly every time.

That came up in therapy yesterday as well. I have this perception that you all are doing it perfectly every time.

In the past, if this had come up, if she had said, "I don't know what to do, I tried to pick him up to put him into bed but he screamed and told me to put him down. What should I do?" I might have said, "Do you want me to try?" or "Maybe you could wait a while until he's fully asleep," etc. So, we are both making progress.

How did getting GS into bed go?

I wasn't present during the transfer but I didn't hear him scream out and so I assume it went smoothly.

Incidentally, DD and I are talking more in the last few days than we have in the last three weeks. I'm doing my best to be mindful of my facial expressions and my words.

My hope is that she can leave on good terms and we can stay in contact. We both agree that our relationship is better when we are not living together.

~ OH

[Only Human]

DD and I spent a long time on the back patio yesterday and I listened to her talk, while only occasionally asking (lame) validating questions and attempting to empathize.

She said some things that told me:

1. She has some insight.
2. She knows I care about her.
3. She feels alone in the world.
4. She takes very little responsibility for how her life has gone/is going.

This is not in the right order, and I'm paraphrasing; DD's speech is less eloquent and often disjointed.

DD: I feel like if GS was assessed and diagnosed, at least I would know where to start with discipline.

Me: How would you go about getting him assessed?

DD: I had an appointment to get him assessed for ADD, but I know he's ADD. But when I got to the appointment, they asked if I was here for a checkup and I wasn't thinking clearly, it's my fault, I said "Yeah, ok, a checkup." So they didn't assess him. They gave me a list of phone numbers and I called but nobody answered. Then I made an appointment but my ride fell through. I can't afford to get him assessed. I'm just going to wait until we get to (other state) and he gets settled in for a while. I thought I would put him into preschool right away after we moved but I think he needs to get settled in first.

DD: GS's behavior will probably be better once he can live someplace stable, without having to move every few months.

Me: Sounds like stability is important to you.

DD: Yes, we were doing great when we were living in the rental. If we could have just stayed there, all this wouldn't have happened.

DD: I feel like I'm the eff-up in the family. Nobody gets me, they all think I'm too loud, too crude. But I don't want to stop being those things, I like those things.

Me: You want to be (given name) and you want that to be ok.

DD: No, I don't want to be (given name), I hate (given name).

Me: You want to be (chosen name, which is a variation of her given name)

DD: Yes. I feel like when I am in public, everyone is staring at me, judging me, but then I think, "They're staring at me because of the way I dress or because my hair is blue and pink," so if I didn't want everyone staring at me, why do I dress like this?"

Me: I want you to know that I think you are awesome just the way you are. I care about you. (I'm feeling weird about what I said here - - I do think she's awesome, but I feel like I was telling her, "There's no need for you to do anything different.")
DD: You care about me too much, you suffocated me.

Me: I know I did, I'm sorry.  (I feel weird about what I said here too)

DD: I guess it's better than not having someone care about you. Like (her BF's mom) doesn't give a bleep about him.

DD: I'm jealous of (SIL, who is just six years older than DD and who has a newborn and an 11-year-old) because she has people helping her all the time; picking up her son, babysitting her newborn, giving her breaks. Nobody gives me breaks, GS is too much for everyone with his behavior. I can't be with him 24/7 without a break, it's too much for me. He's rough, he throws his body against me, he doesn't listen, he pushes the boundaries, I need time away from him. I can't even go to the bathroom without him in my face. I need a whole day away from him sometimes, but the last time I was away from him for a whole day, CPS was called.

Me: Mmm hmm

DD: Having to pick him up early from preschool on Wednesday really screwed up my plan. I was going to pack Wednesday and Thursday but after I had to pick him up early on Wednesday, I wasn't going to let him go back to preschool after the way they treated him. So now I'm not packed and I'm running out of time.

Me: You sound stressed. I think anyone in your situation would be stressed. I know I don't like it when things don't go as planned.

DD: I always knew GS was going to have trouble in school, but I thought it would be like (DD's ADHD brother), you know? Like, he wouldn't do his homework but he'd ace all his tests. But he's getting into trouble because of his behavior. I knew he would have trouble. I mean, I'm not ok, (GS's dad) is not ok,  I used to blame it on the drugs but after talking to his sister and his dad, (GS's dad) has had trouble all his life. (GS's dad's) family is not ok, but none of them is like a school shooter, you know? So GS threw a chair, I threw chairs in school, I had angry outbursts. The teacher told me the kids and teachers were terrified of him. I'm not afraid of GS, they act like he's dangerous. They had him in a corner, away from everybody, there were several staff members there, someone could have talked to him, not just left him alone. Sometimes I talk to him when he's out of control, and he's able to tell me what's going on. But they don't do that, they just punish him.

Me: Poor kid. We love our kids so much, it's hard when they're struggling. You said earlier that if he was assessed, at least you'd know what you were dealing with. What's that look like?

DD: I don't want him in counseling, I hated counseling. I hated someone who didn't know me, talking to me about my problems. I remember (school friend) told me once, "You don't have to talk to them. You can just say nothing," so that's what I started doing. I'm never going to counseling again. (our T) ruined that for me. She called CPS on me. I opened up to her about my feelings and my life and she called CPS on me. I remember dad telling me, "All counselors do is call CPS," and he was right. I'll never go to counseling again and I don't want GS in counseling. I'm not going to put him on medication. What am I gonna do? Give him a pill to go to sleep? Tell him it's chamomile, then he grows up and learns the truth, that I drugged him? No way. (DD's BF's mom) medicated (BF) and told him it was chamomile, but it was Ritalin. (DD's ADHD brother) told me he hated being medicated, that he felt suicidal when he was on medication. I'm not going to medicate GS unless he tells me he wants to be medicated. It's his choice, not mine.

Me: (Silent, but wishing I had something to say)

DD: I can't spank GS anymore and so his behavior has gotten worse. I know yelling at him makes things worse but sometimes I can't help myself. I don't want to yell at him. I'm glad to see that he behaves for you the way he behaves for me, I mean, you don't yell at him, you're not a yeller, but he still misbehaves for you. So it's something wrong with him. Nothing works with GS. Now I have to move him again, he's got no stability. People in (new state) tell me they're going to help me get some time away from GS. I hope it's real.

Background: When she was evicted from the rental, she moved out of state. She was told there was plenty of room for herself, GS, and DD's xBF, their dog was welcome, her xBF would be given a job, rental prices were reasonable, there was enough room for all their stuff to be stored on the property, etc. When she got there, there wasn't enough room for their stuff so she had to put it in storage, which was then lost for non-payment. The first day there, the parents of the friend she was staying with told her, "There's no yelling in this house. You can't stay here if you yell." On day three, they asked them to leave. She texted, asking if she could live with me, I texted her "Given our history, I don't think that's a good idea." She texted me, "Eff you, have a good life without us." Then she changed her mind within minutes. I told her the only way I'd consider living with her again is if we got family and individual counseling. She and GS stayed in hotels for about six weeks and we had about three family counseling sessions before they moved in.

Me: I know you were disappointed when the move to (other state) was not what you expected.

DD: You made me feel better talking to me.

Me: I'm glad you feel better.

Then her xBF arrived and I left for the day.

That's the gist of it, she cried a few times and I teared up a few times. I told her I love her and care about her.

Today, DD told me she's moving on the 21st or 22nd, instead of the 26th, because she doesn't want to be here for Thanksgiving. She has the money to move early so she's going to.

I'm crying in my room, GS is napping, DD is in the garage, live-streaming.

~ OH

[wendydarling]

Thinking back on the conversation, I didn't say, "Good idea" until she had made a decision. So I think I'm being too critical of myself. In my desire to do this right, I'm getting stuck in wanting to do it perfectly every time.

It's hard not to be ahead of them, overselves OH, we problem solve, whoosh and have confidence. It's all about slowing down, providing space they need to find the solution, one that works for them and it takes steps... .blanket first …... then before you know GS is in bed. And DD has succeeded  

Make sense? You are doing great, listen, listen, DD needs to be heard. When you listen and DD's heard you are not in conflict? You are working together?

[wendydarling]

Wow OH   I'd be in tears too.

DD: You made me feel better talking to me.
Me: I'm glad you feel better.

   

Listening with empathy, stepping into the shoes of others is a powerful connection. There is so much there OH, you summarised it well. I'm guessing it's too soon to talk about how you'll keep connected, have you any thoughts?

WDx

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Here it is OH, one of the first gifts I landed on here, I get goose bumps every time I listen to Scott, in a good way.

Listen with Empathy

[Only Human]

Yes, I think it's too soon to talk about how we'll stay connected.

She's packing, I'm crying on the back patio after having spent about 30 minutes catching ladybugs with GS. DD's xBF is here to entertain GS so DD can pack. I'm trying to compose myself before going through the house, into my room.

Before the ladybug hunt, I told DD, "I'll miss you." She said, "I'm sure I'll miss you too, eventually. I don't belong in this city. I remember when I was pregnant, living in another city, and grandma told me, "You should come home. You have family here, support here." But I don't have family here, in the sense that nobody helps me but you. (DD's half-brother's name) went to prison for stealing and xxx let him live with her but not me. I haven't been invited to any family events since GS was a year old. Everybody lets me down, messing with my housing. When I lived here at 19, yeah I messed that up because I just smoked pot all day. But then I lived with dad and he pushed me down when I was pregnant. Then I lived with you and you kicked me out. No other family members have ever offered me a place to stay. Now you kicked me out again. Grandma tells me to stay close to family but they don't support me so why do I keep coming back?"

I said, "It sounds like you're feeling abandoned."

DD: No,  not abandoned, like I don't belong here so why am I here?

Then GS and I went out back. After DD's xBF got here, GS went into the house. I spent about 10 minutes on the back pation, composing myself and starting this post. When I came in, I walked down the hall toward my room. DD was crying in the hall. I started to cry and she walked into her room. I stood in her door and said, "Can I hug you?" She has her headphones in and her back was turned to me so I figured she didn't hear me so I tapped her on the shoulder and said, "Can I hug you?" She turned and yelled, "No!"

This is so damn sad!

~ OH

edited for clarity and to fix mistakes because I was on mobile.

[Only Human]

I want to, but will not, say to her... ."When you first moved in, we were working together - family and individual counseling, co-parenting GS. We enjoyed spending time together - sewing, tie-dye, laughing. Somewhere along the line, we got into our old habits. I hate that you're leaving the state. I am worried about you and GS. I know you will survive, but I want you to have the best life, not just survive. PLEASE get treatment for your BPD! Your happiness and GS's happiness depend on it. You could have a good life. It will take a lot of work and I will support you as best I can while you do the work."

I'm so so so sad right now. I miss them already and they're still here. I'm so worried about this move. DD and her internet BF are clashing already and she's not even there. I'm worried that she'll call in crisis within weeks, or days, of leaving, I'm worried she won't call at all and will suffer in silence rather than reach out.

I'm also relieved that she's leaving. It's pure awfulness for me at the moment. Mostly I'm sad that we couldn't make it work.

~ OH

[Only Human]

I'm worried that the internet BF is a bad guy, only wanting to get DD and GS there to harm them.

Tom Petty sings, "Most things I worry about never happen anyway" and it's been true for many of my worries.

I'm a wreck. The sounds of her packing, crying while packing, yelling at GS, GS reacting. It's plain torture. I could leave but I don't know where I'd go. I'm nothing but tears and worry right now.

[Only Human]

I went through some photos of GS and DD, marking some for printing. I hope to get a small photo album together for GS. I hope DD will let him have it. Her pattern is to not let GS talk about the people she has discarded.

This evening, GS asked why his pillow wasn't packed. DD said, "We will pack it last, you need it to sleep before we move."

GS: Where am I moving again? (internet bf's name)?

DD: Yep

GS: (to me) I'm moving to (BF's name)

Me: Oh, I hope you will enjoy living there.

GS: I will

Me: Great

I'm relieved to hear GS feeling ok w/the move because three weeks ago he was very sad, saying he wants to live with me forever, doesn't want to live with (BF), etc.

SIGH!

I've got work tomorrow, it's my busy time and I'm behind on my work.

I will survive this.

~ OH

[wendydarling]

Oh OH    it is torturous, it is overwhelming, my heart goes out to you. It's so painful for you to watch your DD struggle through everything. These latest conversations, were they eye opening to you, was there new information how she feels about everything, her limitations? That's a lovely idea to give GS a photo album. You've done your best in a very difficult situation OH. Has DD told you anything about the BF?

[Hyacinth Bucket]

OH,  I'll be thinking of you this week. That sounds agonizing. I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better. I think you are handling the situation so well. You're amazing.

It's interesting, my daughter has said something similar repeatedly, that she doesn't feel like she belongs in our city and that she has no one here except us (and we are never there 'enough' for her).

Please let us know how you're doing this week, and how we can best support you.

[Only Human]

Thanks for replying WD, and thanks for the link on listening w/empathy. I definitely need to practice that. I always thought I was a good listener but I'm full of advice, invalidation, waiting for my turn to talk, wanting the conversation to be over, etc.

As for eye-openers, I definitely have more insight into what it's like for her. I'm beginning to separate DD from her PD.

She didn't share anything I haven't heard before. This time, however, I heard it without judgment, without thinking, "What the heck is she talking about? We all love her!" She's right in many ways... .she doesn't have the support of any other family member but myself. And I've got a lot to learn about what support means. I rescued. I see how that kept her helpless. Ugh.

She's not shared anything about her BF. I was surprised when GS said his name, surprised that DD affirmed that yes, that's where they will live.

In light of her new plan to leave earlier than expected, I'm really grateful that we are no longer in conflict. I have hope that she'll stay in touch. Tonight, after GS was asleep, I heard her come in from the garage so I popped out and said, "How are you doing?" She said, "I'm doing ok, I feel better now." I said, "I'm glad. I love you." She said, "I love you too mom." In the past, I might have reached out for a hug, or tried to engage her in further conversation. I see now that "I love you" doesn't mean everything is ok between us.

I showered today. It's been more days than I'd like to admit since I did that.

Thank you, wendydarling. I always get a lot from your replies. I hope someday I can offer support to others here like you and so many others do. I'm constantly amazed at how much I get from you all.

~ OH

[Only Human]

Hi HB 

Thank you for replying. Our daughters are so similar. DD's big plan when she turned 18 was to be a stripper. She moved the day after she turned 18, to a town with lots of strip joints. Fortunately, she never followed that dream. Today, she dreams of owning a care home so she can "take care of people the right way." She worked in a care home and was really upset with how it was run.

I think about you daily, wondering how you're doing. I just can't bring myself to post in others' threads because I don't think I have anything of value to add.

~ OH

[Panda39]

OH,

   

Nothing to add, just following along and can only imagine how hard this is for you all.

   

Thinking of you,
Panda39

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

your daughter had previously/recently been threatening to cut off contact when she moved, do i have that right? does it seem like shes backed off from that threat?

[Only Human]

Thank you, Panda.

I had moments of sadness today but kept it together enough to be very productive at work. When I got home, DD and GS were in good spirits, DD had done some more packing, and she was talking about her plan for tomorrow; more packing, GS's father figure coming to distract GS so she could clean, etc. She asked which of GS's toys she could take, since many of them were purchased by me. I told her she could take whatever she would like to take.

I asked when she was leaving, she said Wednesday. She doesn't want to be here for Thanksgiving. I'll be at work on Wednesday. Wednesday is one of my days with GS - we used to spend a couple of hours at the park but with the time change, we have been going to McDonald's. She told me we could have our time together tomorrow, she doesn't want to take that away from me. 

your daughter had previously/recently been threatening to cut off contact when she moved, do i have that right? does it seem like shes backed off from that threat?

Yes, you have that right. I asked her today, "I'd like to put together a small photo album for GS to take with him, would that be ok?" She told me, "No. I want him to forget you. I know that hurts you and I'm sorry. Please don't take it personally, I want him to forget everybody. I don't want a photo album to make it harder for him to forget you. Also, please don't go after grandparent rights, I don't want to have to get a restraining order. I have a video of you locking yourself in GS's room with GS."

Such discrepancies.

I said, "I hear you." Then I got up and said, "I'm gonna need a few minutes before I hang out with GS."

Those few minutes are over. Happy face and fun with GS until wind-down time.

~ OH

[once removed]

I said, "I hear you." Then I got up and said, "I'm gonna need a few minutes before I hang out with GS."

it was quick witted of you, and probably very difficult i imagine, not to react here.

i dont mean to minimize anything here when i say that there is a possibility she retracts this/changes her mind. i think youve done a lot of bridge building.

when does she leave?

[Only Human]

She'll leave this Wednesday after I've gone to work, so the day after tomorrow.

~ OH

[Only Human]

I'm working from home today. GS got up at 5:30 and I heard him and DD in the living room. I slept until 5:50 and went straight to work. Around 8:30, I sent DD a text: I'm gonna take a break at 9.

At 9, I went out and DD said, "So, we're actually leaving after Thanksgiving, due to scheduling and what not." I said, "Oh, ok," then I told GS I was here for a short break. GS said he wanted to go outside and DD said, "Since it's so cold, there's a new rule, when he goes outside, he has to wear his beanie." I said, "Alrighty, sounds good."

When I come out for breaks, I set a timer so we all know when I'm going back to work. When I'm working from home, I like to start work earlier than scheduled, 7:00, to allow for longer breaks. With my start time at 5:50, I had "banked" 70 minutes. I announced that my break was going to be 30 minutes, and I set a timer. DD went into the garage and GS decided he didn't want to go outside after all. I read a book twice and we played hokey pokey. DD came inside with about 10 minutes left of my break.

GS wanted to play the cube game. You toss a stuffed, oversized cube with different colors on each side (like a die). There are colored cards with "tasks" to do; hop on one foot, sing a song, find something green, etc. GS asked DD if she wanted to play and she agreed. We played a few rounds before my timer went off and DD, while not energetic, joined in.

After I went back to work, DD and GS played the cube game for about 10 minutes. Then GS was in time-out a few times with DD screaming at him, locking the door, GS screaming, banging on the door, kicking the walls, DD screaming at him to stop it right now, etc.

I later heard them in the bath with DD getting very frustrated/angry at GS for every little thing - DD yelling at him, GS reacting, arguing, not doing what DD wanted him to, DD threatening time out, etc.

I tried my hand at S.E.T, using an example I found in a blog written by a pwBPD called, "6 Ways to Communicate Effectively With Your Borderline Loved Ones." The following text exchange occurred:

Me: Hey there, I can tell that you're stressed, upset, maybe overwhelmed. While I can understand why, the way you're acting right now is very ineffective. Can you take a few minutes to think about how you can be more skillful?

DD: WOW. HELL NO MOM.
DD: I wouldn't be so STRESSED IF I WEREN'T EVICTED
DD: AND NOTHINGS GONNA CHANGE THIS STRESS TILL I MOVE

I didn't reply. I'm working, getting things done, didn't want to add fuel.

On the bright side, she hasn't yelled at GS since and that was over an hour ago.

I think GS is on wind down time. Soon he'll be knocking on my door for his hug and kiss.

My lunch break is over - I'll be back later. I'm so grateful for this site so I can track events/progress/setbacks. Thank you all, as always, for reading and supporting!

~ OH

[once removed]

not to monday morning quarterback OH, but to help in the future, knowing all of this takes practice and is much harder in the moment.

i suspect what she heard here was:

"very ineffective. be more skillful."

and she reacted defensively.

when using validation, if its followed by a statement such as "i see how you feel, but" a person will hear "your feelings/the way youre acting are wrong".

SET, or any of the communication techniques, have times and places, and also need to be tweaked in a way that is natural and acknowledges context. for example, a lot of the examples in our workshop begin with telling someone how they feel. personally, i hate when people tell me how i feel, so it wouldnt work with me, but i will sometimes use phrases like "you sound exhausted" followed by supportive words, all depending on my relationship with the person, and the context. if i said that to my best friend, hed look at me funny, we dont talk that way to each other.

in terms of the when to apply which communication techniques or if at all, lets look at the context, its critical:

your daughter by this point is pretty heated, and yelling (people with BPD traits just by nature dont do feelings of frustration well at all). our truth/the truth, however we say it, will rarely go down well in that case. i get the sense that the gist of what you were trying to say was "calm down. not cool.". that probably wouldnt have gone over either in this situation, and i wouldnt have necessarily advised it, but it would have gotten the point across, especially if the purpose was to set limits.

there is a great deal of contention between you, your daughter, and your grandson. trust on her end is broken down considerably, and she is resentful. people, anyone, can be very defensive when it comes to even a hint of criticism about their parenting. its a danger zone, and frankly, even if she comes to you directly for advice or feedback, you run both a risk and an opportunity if you give it, and how you give it.

the support statement was probably the most critical element here. you dont need a communication tool for that, necessarily. a support statement can look like offering her a cold drink, or just bringing her one. or asking if she needs a hand (possibly risky in this context). this has the potential of defusing the situation without any of the rest of it, showing love, and building trust.

what do you think? whats happened since?

[Only Human]

I think I'm trying so hard to keep my boundaries that I'm making things worse.

The rest of the day went ok. I worked in my room and DD yelled less at GS. I gave DD the heads up about 30 minutes before my break and came out from 3-3:30. We all played hide and seek for a little while then GS and I went on a ladybug hunt until my break was over.

Two hours later I was done working and I came out and GS and I left for our time together (usually Wednesday but she originally was planning to move tomorrow afternoon). GS and I are at McDonald's.

I hated when my dad criticized my parenting. I didn't speak to him for two years because of it.
 
Ugh

~ OH

[once removed]

i hear a mom who loves her daughter, who wants to help her daughter, who loves and wants to help her grandson, and who is herself dealing with an above average, pretty panicky set of circumstances. all of this is a mighty tall order OH.

I think I'm trying so hard to keep my boundaries that I'm making things worse.

the fact remains that you are in a better position to support your daughter and your grandson than anyone in the world, and that learning new ways of doing so is hard.

good boundaries are, it seems, an elusive concept to grasp. ive been reading and learning about them for fourteen years, and i still have questions and difficulty explaining them. theyre one of the most misunderstood of all of the tools, possibly because they are more of a lifestyle than a tool.

every parent criticizes their childrens parenting, inevitably. them, along with friends, family, total strangers, kids new friends parents... .we shouldnt, but we do. it happens.

sometimes, when i think about boundaries, its easier for me to think in terms of accepting other peoples, in terms of recognizing my own. my values dictate that i will (try to) respect other peoples limits. my boundaries are a reflection of how i live that value, and of my own limits. if someone communicates a limit, my action is to acknowledge it. i do the opposite more than id like to admit.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Only Human]

Thanks for sharing that you also don't do it right all the time, once removed. It helps me a lot to hear that. I have this belief that "everyone but me" is getting it, doing it, excelling at it. Thank you. 

After GS was in bed, DD told me she's ordering pizza. Then she showed me the app she used and said, "It's so weird, I can track my pizza." I said, "Really, that's cool" and then she started talking.

She said she's stressed out because her dog got out of her xBF's mom's backyard and he's been looking for her all afternoon/evening. I said, "Oh no, I'm sorry." She continued talking... .I listened and mostly kept my mouth shut but offered simple words of care along the way, "I know how much you love (dog's name) I hope she's found soon," etc. She told me she's got a lot on her mind, she's stressed out, etc. I said, "I'm sorry for adding to that stress w/my text." She said, "I know I'm not giving GS my best, but I'm not giving him my worst." She talked more and I listened more.

Then she got a text that the dog was found. I said, "Oh what a relief!" She shared that she worries about her exBF because she's moving and he has nobody - no best friend, nobody but her and their dog (who will not be moving w/DD) and she's afraid he'll get suicidal if the dog isn't around.

She shared that she hopes things go well with her move because if they don't, she doesn't know what she'll do. I listened. I said, "You've got a lot going on."

She shared that she's not been eating well and she doesn't want to be like her dad who stops eating when he's stressed. I told her I was glad she ordered a pizza, was taking care of herself, I told her I love her. She said, "I love you too, mom."

I told her GS had a good time at McDonald's. He firmly said, "Stop" or "No" when one of the children was too close, etc., didn't hit, push, or scream. She said she's glad she didn't tell GS about the dog being gone because it would have upset him. I said, "Yeah." Hearing this, I'm cheering because her pattern is usually to share all the harsh realities of the world with GS in an attempt to "treat him like an adult."

I took a shower today.

~ OH