When you know you shouldn't, but you just wanna say something...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've been minding my manners and things have been flowing smoothly between me and my BPD-lite husband. I've got a pretty thick skin, but what I don't have is heaps of tolerance for hypocrisy. I let lots of things he says go without responding to them and obviously this is the best strategy and it allows us to be pleasant and friendly with each other. But at times I feel there's a price to pay for not speaking my mind, and that is a lack of intimacy and authenticity. So... .

Last night, he planned to have dinner with a friend. He doesn't seem to make friends easily, so I encourage him to spend time with those that he has. I had forgotten about it and made a comment about what we might have for dinner. He reminds me that he's having dinner with P. and then I say, "Oh, yeah. Then I'll go to my favorite restaurant."

Next thing I know, he's angry. At first, I think it's because I'll be at a better restaurant than what he and P. are planning. But no, I find out it's because I forgot that he was going out on Thursday.

He accused me of "not caring" because I didn't remember his dinner appointment. And I'm thinking how absurd that is, that I should remember his schedule and that he was deeply hurt because I didn't.

I told him that I write down all my engagements in my dayplanner (old school--I like to see it on paper) and that I should start writing down his too so I don't forget.

He said, "Well, you remember important things," as if he thinks I think he's not important enough that I remember his schedule. He went on with scathing criticism about my "not caring" and how I'd remember if I really did care about him.

I let it drop.

Until the next day, when it occurred to me that his therapist called him on Tuesday because he forgot his appointment. Of course, I bring that up and start World War 3. I get called "defensive," "attacking," "justifying," "angry," and he interrupts me when I try and respond to his remarks.

I go silent and just look at him with a peaceful expression on my face. I tell him that I'm not buying his premise and that I understand that he felt hurt, but that didn't give him license to say unkind things to me. He began interrupting and I stopped and stared at him and waited until he realized that he had interrupted me once again. (Appropriately timed silence can be powerful.)

As a lawyer, he's used to overpowering people with facile arguments, but with me, he becomes upset and I use that to my advantage by staying calm.

I knew I was going to start an argument, was surprised at how quickly he blew up, but I felt I needed to not let his thesis pass unchallenged, that merely by forgetting about his dinner date, that I didn't care about him.

Ultimately, after he cooled down, he has been much nicer the rest of the day and I feel like we had a more "real" connection than had I just ignored the issue.




 

[Cat Familiar]

I've been minding my manners and things have been flowing smoothly between me and my BPD-lite husband. I've got a pretty thick skin, but what I don't have is heaps of tolerance for hypocrisy. I let lots of things he says go without responding to them and obviously this is the best strategy and it allows us to be pleasant and friendly with each other. But at times I feel there's a price to pay for not speaking my mind, and that is a lack of intimacy and authenticity. So... .

Last night, he planned to have dinner with a friend. He doesn't seem to make friends easily, so I encourage him to spend time with those that he has. I had forgotten about it and made a comment about what we might have for dinner. He reminds me that he's having dinner with P. and then I say, "Oh, yeah. Then I'll go to my favorite restaurant."

Next thing I know, he's angry. At first, I think it's because I'll be at a better restaurant than what he and P. are planning. But no, I find out it's because I forgot that he was going out on Thursday.

He accused me of "not caring" because I didn't remember his dinner appointment. And I'm thinking how absurd that is, that I should remember his schedule and that he was deeply hurt because I didn't.

I told him that I write down all my engagements in my dayplanner (old school--I like to see it on paper) and that I should start writing down his too so I don't forget.

He said, "Well, you remember important things," as if he thinks I think he's not important enough that I remember his schedule. He went on with scathing criticism about my "not caring" and how I'd remember if I really did care about him.

I let it drop.

Until the next day, when it occurred to me that his therapist called him on Tuesday because he forgot his appointment. Of course, I bring that up and start World War 3. I get called "defensive," "attacking," "justifying," "angry," and he interrupts me when I try and respond to his remarks.

I go silent and just look at him with a peaceful expression on my face. I tell him that I'm not buying his premise and that I understand that he felt hurt, but that didn't give him license to say unkind things to me. He began interrupting and I stopped and stared at him and waited until he realized that he had interrupted me once again. (Appropriately timed silence can be powerful.)

As a lawyer, he's used to overpowering people with facile arguments, but with me, he becomes upset and I use that to my advantage by staying calm.

I knew I was going to start an argument, was surprised at how quickly he blew up, but I felt I needed to not let his thesis pass unchallenged, that merely by forgetting about his dinner date, that I didn't care about him.

Ultimately, after he cooled down, he has been much nicer the rest of the day and I feel like we had a more "real" connection than had I just ignored the issue.




 

[Red5]

Yes Cat, been there myself many times... .

So last weekend we are going on the next town to do Christmas shopping, things had been pretty good, I’d been ‘on my game’... .steady as she goes... .

So we are listening to the ‘Bridge’ channel on the XM radio... .I am usually very adept at gauging her ever changing moods, and behavior peculiarities... .but I slipped up... .

The song “ Longer “ by Dan Fogelberg is playing... .she is singing to it... .I’m listening to the words... .

So we pass by the main gate of Camp Lejeune... .and I have a memory flash and I think back to when we went to Gunnery Sergeants advance course there... .and I remembered one of our instructors... .and I remembered that I had heard about his passing a few years before... .

And it swept me far away for a moment... .that’s when I ‘f-ed’ up... .

She is still singing along to Mr. Fogelberg... .and I simply say... .“did I ever tell you about Sergeant Major Rudd?”... .

She immediately slips her rail... .“‘ok it’s all about you... .this is MY favorite song, let me pay attention to you instead”... .add snarky - mean - anger... .

I just said “sorry and  never mind”’... .“‘he’s dead anyway, don’t matter”... .and kept staring ahead... .driving down highway 24... .

She said nothing else... .’so we pulled into the Harbor Freight’... .I shut off the ignition and bang a few things around while I’m getting out of the Jeep... .she lights into me again... .’”YOU DONT have to be so rude!”... .

So now I am pretty amped up... .but I just let it go and think to myself... .“why do I put up with you, and you can open your own doors the rest of the day”’... .

Yeah... .I understand Cat !... .who knows !

Red5

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2017/03/21/marine-sergeant-major-dies-in-non-combat-related-incident-in-south-korea/

[Notwendy]

Of course, I bring that up that will start the fire, because he's in victim mode at the moment.

I had a wise counselor who pointed out a tendency in people to "make meaning" out of things - and the meaning isn't accurate. The fact is: you forgot the dinner arrangement. The fiction part is that your H made it into something more. This seems to be a default thinking pattern- rejection, you don't care about me, I'm not good enough. When someone has these thoughts - then they see "evidence" for that in other people's behavior- and it often is the most intimate partner.

I don't think this is exclusive to people with BPD. I know that as a child, I developed "radar" to interpret BPD mom's moods as a way to protect myself. If mom was angry, we were in for a difficult time. If someone else is angry- then that may not be the same situation but I am sensitive to people being upset or angry. I think this mechanism is common in people with BPD but I don't think it is exclusive to it.

It helps to recognize when this is happening. A similar thing happened with us recently. I was unavailable for a social commitment and had forgotten about it. I apologized but beyond that, there was little I could do to make a difference.  I could have pointed out the many times he has been unavailable to me for his other commitments, but in the moment, there is no way for that to do anything but escalate the situation. It may be said to give an example that these things are not personal, but it comes across as JADE in the moment. Basically both of us have to manage our feelings and after an apology, I don't know if saying anything more is helpful.

[Cat Familiar]

“‘ok it’s all about you ... .this is MY favorite song, let me pay attention to you instead” ... .add snarky - mean - anger ... .

Oh, the irony here--it's thick! 

When confronted by this much projection, I find it hard to keep my lips zipped. There's only so much "turning the other cheek" that I can stomach.

And part of what goes through my head is that I desire to  be congruent and honest. If I have to maintain a pretense constantly and not be authentic, why am I even in this relationship?

[Cat Familiar]

Of course, I bring that up that will start the fire, because he's in victim mode at the moment.

Exactly! A common place where he dwells... .

I had a wise counselor who pointed out a tendency in people to "make meaning" out of things - and the meaning isn't accurate. The fact is: you forgot the dinner arrangement. The fiction part is that your H made it into something more. This seems to be a default thinking pattern- rejection, you don't care about me, I'm not good enough. When someone has these thoughts - then they see "evidence" for that in other people's behavior- and it often is the most intimate partner.

He's very good at creating a narrative where he's the victim and I'm not appreciative, caring, etc.--fill in the blank. Of course, nothing I can say at that point makes any difference and typically it gets turned around so that it supports his point--"Oh, she's defensive," or "She's justifying her behavior." So, yes, it gets interpreted as JADEing.

However he values his critical thinking skills highly and if I can give a counterexample (his forgetting his therapy appointment), coming from a calm and centered point of view, he has no choice but to take it in and consider it--maybe not in the moment. It's a way of putting his priorities in conflict: which is more important, his victimhood or his intellectual prowess?

Hint--the intellectual prowess always trumps victimhood, but often it will take some time for him to come to that realization.

And sometimes I just need to poke the bear. I prefer living in peace and harmony, but sometimes I find that truth is worth fighting for.

I do not want to support his narrative that I don't care about him simply because I forgot a social engagement. And though there was a brief conflict, it allowed him to express his resentment openly. When I brought up his own forgetfulness, I believe he was able to reexamine the conclusions he'd drawn about me, and realize that a memory lapse didn't mean lack of caring.

[Notwendy]

Cat, the best answer I can think of is that- honesty, and speaking your truth is important. It isn't about turning the other cheek all the time and allowing any behavior.

To me, it's about the timing of speaking and also a bit of "pick your battles"- not ignoring really important things but also not speaking out to everything. What is a serious issue and what is a minor temporary hissy fit. This is because we can not control how someone thinks.

When my H is upset, he says some pretty mean things. I used to take them to heart. When he calms down, sometimes he doesn't even recall what he said and he certainly didn't mean them. If he meant them all the time, or they were verbally abusive it would concern me enough to correct it- in the moment, the best thing we can do with abusive language is to disengage and leave the room, but saying something in the moment is often ineffective.

"ok it’s all about you ... .this is MY favorite song" "Well, you remember important things" . Said in the moment, comments like this are from victim mode, a hissy fit.

Abusive language- you're a   or really mean- disengage and remove yourself from the conversation.

When they are in victim mode and emotional in the moment, saying anything is likely to not get the results you want and escalate the conversation. When the person has calmed down is the time to discuss the things that are important to you. They may likely react with a " you do this too" or some other statement, but when they are calm is when they are more likely to hear you.

I admit to in the moment saying something like " stop making this up about me" and then disengaging, but I don't try to explain or defend myself in the moment like I used to.

I've come to accept that I can't change that kind of thinking.  It also doesn't change the truth - if I forgot something, and I apologize- there isn't much I can do, and I didn't do it on purpose to be hurtful or that I don't care. I think the reaction is a sort of reflex and they need to manage the feelings in the moment. "word vomit" is one mechanism, but it may be just that. If what is said really bothers me, then I can bring up a discussion about it later when they calm down.

[Notwendy]

However he values his critical thinking skills highly and if I can give a counterexample (his forgetting his therapy appointment), coming from a calm and centered point of view, he has no choice but to take it in and consider it--maybe not in the moment. It's a way of putting his priorities in conflict: which is more important, his victimhood or his intellectual prowess?

Hint--the intellectual prowess always trumps victimhood, but often it will take some time for him to come to that realization.

Yes- but also consider the timing. Poking an angry hurt bear is likely to just make him growl louder. Letting him calm down allows him to engage his thinking brain better.

[Cat Familiar]

I totally agree with you, Notwendy. It's worse than useless to try and address these issues in the moment. But later, when their emotions have calmed down, then it's possible to actually be heard. Possible, if you thread the needle just right, but attempting to do so is still a risk.

Often I'm willing to take a risk, should there be the probability of an epiphany. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. What I'm concerned with is if I don't confront some of these recurring falsehoods ("You don't care about me."), then I believe he might take my silence as agreement.

Oh, and I did wait about 12 hours to challenge his thinking .

[Notwendy]

I hear you Cat, and honestly, I think I have lost patience with faulty thinking. I'm not sure my H even believes what he says when he actually thinks about it. The " you don't care about me" could be the sadness a child feels when he is hurt. When he feels better, he may be able to better access his logical thinking.

Sometimes I have responded with an irritated " Oh that's crazy" to these statements. Trying to correct it feels a bit like an uphill battle. Most of the time, I really do try my best- I am not a bad person- but I am human and make mistakes sometimes. In his rational moments, my H knows that. Yours probably knows you care about him too.

[Cat Familiar]

The " you don't care about me" could be the sadness a child feels when he is hurt. When he feels better, he may be able to better access his logical thinking.

Absolutely--it's like he's time-traveled back to a five year old.

Sometimes I have responded with an irritated " Oh that's crazy" to these statements. Trying to correct it feels a bit like an uphill battle.

I've realized that if I bottle up my emotional responses for too long and do not allow my authentic self expression, my responses can easily become snarky, sarcastic, sardonic.

So that I don't do that, I need to be able to freely express, in a kind and compassionate way (and maybe with an element of humor) what I think. I've learned a lot about not triggering him, and how he's like a burn victim in that just touching certain areas can be excruciatingly painful. So I attempt to stay away from any communication that could be interpreted as undermining his self esteem. (That leaves out a lot--and forget about teasing as a form of humor--that leads to hurt feelings in a flash.)

[conflicted55]

Cat Familiar (love the name by the way),

Your post reminded me of my xSOwuBPD when she accused me of not being able to remember her mobile no. This came about because I was taken to hospital in an ambulance. They took me so quickly I did not have time to get my handbag and mobile phone. She had been with me just prior to the ambulance arriving but was tired and hungry (and I wondered if she had arranged to see her ex) so she left me alone, in pain, waiting for the paramedics.  I was at the hospital all night and unable to ring her as did not have her mobile no inplanted in my head.

She thought I was assessed and left at home so had no idea I was in the hospital. I phoned her the next morning and told her I was back home. Clearly, something was going on behind my back because by the end of the week she had a melt down and projected loads onto me before exiting the relationship. One of the criticisms was that 'I should know my partners telephone no off by heart' itimating that she could not be important to me due to the fact I did not know it. 

I understand about not feeling authentic if we dont react accordlingly.

[Notwendy]

I've lost count of how many times I've been "accused" of something that I didn't intend. I do recognize the need to react appropriately, but I've learned that this works when someone has a clear mind and not in the moment.

An idea that has helped me is if someone calls you, or accuses you of something untrue, substitute something absurd in your mind. If someone accused you of being a pink elephant, would you correct them? You know you are not a pink elephant and no amount of saying or thinking makes you one. I also learned that defending what isn't true somehow validates it. If we react to being called a pink elephant, we somehow buy into the idea that maybe we are.

When we do react to these accusations, it is because they resonate with us somehow. We don't do that with a pink elephant accusation because we know it is not possible that we might be one. But an accusation like " if you cared, you'd recall the phone number" - we don't process it with the same boundary- we can second guess ourselves or feel badly that our partner thinks we don't care  or don't want them to feel badly and we feel the urge to correct that. Whose feelings are we fixing? ( open ended question but probably both).

One problem for me with the pink elephant twist is that sometimes I have giggled at the accusation when I think of something absurd. I don't recommend that but it has helped me to not emotionally react in the moment. If it is something I need to apologize for, I do apologize. I also validate the feeling " I am sorry that you feel that way". If it is something that needs correcting, I do bring it up later but often by then it isn't necessary. People say things they don't mean in the moment.

It's hard to keep in mind that my H may be sensitive to things. I'm the sensitive one. I hate being teased. In my H's family, they may tease and say mean things and then laugh at it. I don't handle that well. It's hard for me sometimes to keep in mind that he may be sensitive to some things too since his FOO members do this.

[formflier]

I've been on a pretty good long "good" streak in my relationship.

As I expected, she's getting a bit testy about random stuff coming up to the holidays.

As improvements have happened in my relationship... .I "move my boundaries" or "move my speak up point"... .more towards normal.

My wife "speaking for me" as always bugged me and it has pretty much gone away.

So... I was a bit surprised when she told S10 the other day that "daddy doesn't want you to spend time with so and so... ."  (I didn't care if he spent time with them... .I cared that he did his chores first)

Without hesitation and with other kids watching and listening I said "S10... .I want you to understand that we each speak for ourselves.  Nobody in this house is a mind-reader.  So nobody else can speak for what we want."

My wife interrupts and says ... "oh so you do want them to spend time together... it's either yes or no."

ff says
"It may be yes or no for you... that's your business.  It's not a dichotomous choice for me.  Kids... if you need to understand what Daddy wants... .it will come from Daddy's mouth... do you understand?  (kids nod... wife's fire is going big now.  I shoo S10 out of room to do chores and  and I walk out... .ignoring the blather.)

Once her fire burned out... .which was helped by me doing my own thing.  She seemed to want to be close.

What I did was not "recommended"... .but it sure felt good... .and I hope taught a lesson. 

Odd thing was I didn't really debate saying it or not.  I just did it.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm starting to see a pattern in my relationship and I think the interaction formflier described above also fits with my thoughts about this.

If you think about people with BPD, an element that seems to be a common thread is that they feel insecure about their self worth and often are very self critical, though they may not show that on the surface. They seem to be drawn to those of us who are emotionally strong and have tendencies to be caretakers or codependent.

Over time, their excessive emotional demands can wear us down and we can begin to feel weak and insecure too. When that happens, it seems that they lose respect for us and often begin to behave abusively.

As nons, we wonder what happened to that wonderful person that we fell in love with, and we try harder. But often we are trying harder doing the same things that didn't work previously, and therefore the cycle continues and things get worse.

When we step outside our reality and learn about BPD and begin to try some of the tools that are taught here, things change and often we will see slight improvements immediately and over time, things will get better.

As things improve in our relationships, we now have more behavioral flexibility that can be tolerated by our BPD partner. And though they may not in the moment appreciate a demonstration of our resolve, I believe that they do find comfort in our strength.

[Red5]

Over time, their excessive emotional demands can wear us down and we can begin to feel weak and insecure too. When that happens, it seems that they lose respect for us and often begin to behave abusively.

The four stages of a relationship come to mind... ."respect", once lost, is a very bad sign.

Unfortunately, as respect leaves (maybe mutually), a vacuum is immediately created, and is soon refilled with contempt.

Tough stuff,

Red5

[Enabler]

Unfortunately, as respect leaves (maybe mutually), a vacuum is immediately created, and is soon refilled with contempt.

Yes yes yes. I’m trying not to have contempt but some of my W actions are contemptuous and in much the same way as I treat others as I expect to be treated, I treat others as they treat me... .something I am fighting. If at every decision node we attempt to choose kind and loving rather than merely reflecting back the gash our SOs chuck at us we’re half way there to bettering.

Last night I stood up to passive aggressive behaviour in the form of failing to tell me until last night she had 2 people coming to value the house today, she’s known this for a week. Then she put D5 to bed without telling me so I couldn’t say goodnight to her, something she does when she’s angry but always denies is intentional. I was VERY assertive and showed the red card. This evening I have to pop to the shops so asked if she needed anything.

I’ve said my bit and I’ll say it again given the same circumstances but I am not going to punish her, that’s what PwBPD would do.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, firmness, but fairness.

I have managed to get my relationship back from the contemptuous phase, so it is indeed possible. For me, I had to respect myself enough where I no longer kowtowed to him, just to keep the peace.

Even when things were ugly between us, there was always a way to behave with dignity and respect, and over time that helped repair the relationship.

[Red5]

... .Yes, firmness, but fairness.

Even when things were ugly between us, there was always a way to behave with dignity and respect, .

So she call me at work, and asks for help, even after she said yesterday, and the day before... .I don't need your  charity... .

Red5w... .(on the tele) I've found a place I like, but its XX, and I was only planning on XV, could you help me out... .

Red5... .let me think about it... .do they allow pets, as you did say you were going to adopt another small dog at some point... .

Red5w... .no they don't (pets), but if I were to put carpet replacement cost in the lease (at the end), he said he would consider.

Red5... .ok, that's cool, I know this place, those are very nice, and they have a garage attached... .how much is the carpet bit... .

Red5w... .to replace all the carpet, set and not to increase, he said 4.5k... .but I don't have that much money... .(she has over 50k in her savings now)... .

Red5... .tell you what, I would prefer you to be in a nice safe place, and I like the idea of the attached garage (townhouse multi level)... .so I have no problem kicking in the extra V for the monthly rent... .

Red5w... .but I don't' have 4.5k for carpet replacement... .

Red5... .look, you will most likely be there for several years... .long term... .I will cover your 4.5 for the carpet, so you can have a little dog one day... .and the extra V... .thoughts... .and you could start moving as soon as?

Red5w... .let me think about it... .he said he will call me back... .

*This is quite a change from the knock down drag out of last Friday... .

[formflier]

If she has the money in savings... .why is she asking for help?

FF

[Enabler]

Because she still thinks she needs a Zimmer frame to walk. Did you ever play that game of islands at church youth group as a kid? Pieces of paper on the floor, when the music stops you have to find a bit to stand on. Gradually the youth leader takes away the paper so there’s just little shreds left on the hall floor. The trick was to drag a scrap around with you so you always had a scrap to stand on... .or... .dart between scraps so you were always close to a scrap of safety. Reaching out and being victim keeps Red5 as a scrap of paper under her foot... .her Island.