Balancing Boundaries

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

After an angry email indicating that he didn't want to hear from me, my college sophomore son (probably BPD like his Mom) is back in touch because he wants to upgrade his iPhone, which is on my cell phone account.  I'm glad to hear from him, but uncomfortable about being manipulated.  Plus, he has yet to respond to my previous message in response to his email blasting me.

My question is: how does one find the balance between fostering respectful communications and discouraging angry tirades?  We have been estranged for several years and I remain apprehensive about our tenuous connection.  Previous efforts to reach out to him have, for the most part, gone ignored or unanswered.

I feel like I'm walking a tightrope, because I would like to have a relationship, but don't want to be a doormat.  I don't want to feel like I'm being used.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

LuckyJim

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

hes on your account, do i have that right?

does that mean youre paying for his service? would you be paying for any upgrade?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey OR, Yes to all questions.  LJ

[once removed]

do you normally make the routine upgrades?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey OR, Sometimes, but not always, so it's a toss-up.  LJ

[once removed]

its hard to say, LJ. theres an extensive history here that it would help to know the context of: your previous attempts to reach out, the gist of his angry email, the gist of your response.

that aside, if hes on your account, and this has been the arrangement, and if the upgrade is reasonable/due, id be inclined to do it.

what do you think?

[smilepretty]

My 18yr old DD is awesome at manipulating me to do something/buy something but I can usually taste the manipulation and try not to succumb.  But I get it... .it's harder than anything to resist my sweet, funny loving DD when she wants something.  I too waiver between 'should I buy/do/give it to her to make and keep her happy? Or do I teach a lesson that you don't get what you when you threaten and tantrum if you don't get it?' 

My opinion is that it is kind and generous (and reasonable) to pay for your son's ccurrent phone and plan but I wouldn't "treat" him to an upgrade.  That's a luxury that comes then he can act like a mature person who respects his dad, not just when it's convenient.  You don't have to do any more than food and shelter, everything  else is a bonus. That said, if he can agree to lunch or a hike or something that might include spending a few hours together (and he can hold it together during that time), the upgrade could be seen as a "thanks for making the effort to hang out, I really liked spending time together, I think I feel like giving you that upgrade now". So he sees the connection between good, positive behaviors and getting something he wants.

[Lucky Jim]

Nicely said, smilepretty.  Yes, that's exactly my quandary and I appreciate your suggestions.  So far, I indicated to him that I need more information about the expense involved before making any decision, and also suggested that maybe we could discuss as a Christmas gift for him.  I like your idea to tie the upgrade to spending time together, in order for him to see the connection.

Right, OR, there's an extensive history of estrangement and parental alienation syndrome, which is why our connection feels so tenuous.  I continue to reach out to him and am open to having a r/s, yet he has so much anger and is still quite hostile towards me.  I don't like the feeling that I am just "buying" his affection and being manipulated, which is why I am hesitating.  Sometimes I need time in order to let the water clear.

Thanks for your support, guys.

LJ

[Feeling Better]

Hi LJ

These are my thoughts:
I can see that you are uncomfortable allowing your son an upgrade, especially after the awful email he sent you, which, as far as you are concerned, has unresolved issues. So, your son sends you a hateful email and follows up with a request for an upgrade to his phone. If you agree to the upgrade what message do you think that is sending to your son?

I personally like your idea of offering it to him as a Christmas gift.

FB x

[Lucky Jim]

So, your son sends you a hateful email and follows up with a request for an upgrade to his phone. If you agree to the upgrade what message do you think that is sending to your son?

Right, FB, that's where I'm at.  I don't feel comfortable doing him a favor after his nasty-gram, which sends the wrong message.  I asked for more info on the expense and proposed it as a Christmas gift, yet my son hasn't replied yet.  I did get a message from my BPDxW trying to manipulate me by saying that I owe it to our son (Obligation) because she has done the same for our other son (Guilt).  So I'm just holding my ground in the face of a double manipulation.

I suspect my BPDxW may swoop in and play the Hero by undermining me and getting it for him, even though I asked her to have him contact me directly about the proposed cost.  Waiting to hear back from my son and sent him another message today asking for info on the proposed cost.  Unsure how this is going to play out.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments!

LJ

[Fie]

Hello LJ 

I too like the idea of a Christmas gift.

How about being honest with your son ? Do you see it as a possibility to tell him honestly, look, I feel like I am being manipulated here ? I don't feel like giving you this upgrade because it would be like rewarding you for bad behavior  (name the bad behavior) ?

Spending some time together and rewarding him for it with the update is not something I'd choose I think. Spending time together should be cool in itself, not something you need to get / give something for in return.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lucky Jim]

Hey thanks, Fie!

Agree, it would be great to spend time together without the need for anything in return, yet so far he has declined to get together with me for the last two and a half years, despite repeated invitations from me.  Sad to say, I am the subject of PAS (parental alienation syndrome).

Yes, it makes sense to be honest with him.  I let him know initially that I was unready to discuss the upgrade as I was still digesting his latest (unkind) message to me.  I could probably lay it out more clearly, as you suggest, going forward, and will give it more thought.

LJ

[Feeling Better]

I don't feel comfortable doing him a favor after his nasty-gram, which sends the wrong message.

Precisely, not doing him a favour when he treats you with disrespect is, in my opinion, a good boundary for you to have and one which you could convey to your son.

I am sorry to hear that he has declined to get together with you despite your repeated invitations to him. What kind of invitations have you made to him? Do they include something that he likes doing?

FB x

[Lucky Jim]

I am sorry to hear that he has declined to get together with you despite your repeated invitations to him. What kind of invitations have you made to him? Do they include something that he likes doing?

Feeling Better:  Well, it's been several years so these days I usually propose something small, like getting a pizza or a cup of coffee, or going out to lunch or dinner at a restaurant I know he likes.  Usually he doesn't bother replying and just ignores my invitations.  Over the last few months, I've sent him postcards at college and email messages asking about his classes, which precipitated his recent message blasting me for keeping in touch, asserting that I was stressing him out.

I don't feel good about it, yet at 19 he's an adult so my options are limited.  In the past, I obtained court orders which my BPDxW refused to follow, after which I obtained orders finding her in contempt of court.  It was a frustrating process with my Ex trying to block me at every turn.  Finally, I had one meeting with the boys and a court-appointed T, which didn't go particularly well in part because my Ex had coached them in advance.

Thanks to all for your kind support.

LuckyJim

[jones54]

Hello LJ,
My 33 yo DD has acted the same way with her phone. I did not pay for her phone for a few years since she was not sober. I agreed to put her back on my plan after she got out of rehab to help her get a job. I have had a strained relationship with her for quite awhile (except when she was in rehab). She has complained to me that the phone she has is "no good". I got her a used one which works fine. She has also complained (screamed) when we run out of data (even though she uses the majority) saying I should get unlimited (even though she pays nothing). When I try to connect with her, she also blasts me to leave her alone.  I guess what I am saying is that it is hard for us as parents wanting to have a good relationship with our BPD kids and at the same time  help out when they want something. I think (at least I do) that if we help, it will help with the relationship. My DD treats me very poorly. I have a hard time rewarding her for bad behavior. I hate to say this but I feel she wants me most for money. She is very entitled and projects all her problems on me as I am the cause of everything. Right now she feels I should be helping her with housing but her mother (ex wife) and I feel she needs to take care of herself. Very difficult since I am not sure she will have a relationship with us unless we helped. I am fortunate that my ex and I get along.
I feel the squeeze you are in with your son. When I have talked to others including a therapist,  they always say we need to do what is in the best interest of your kid for the future (and not what we feel would make us feel better today). I have struggled with this for years. I am not saying paying for an upgrade would be enabling but we have to have boundaries. I like the idea of a Christmas gift (assuming he is treating you well).
Sorry I rambled.

[Lucky Jim]

Thanks, jones54, your "rambling" was actually quite honest and helpful.  My son has yet to respond to my two requests for details on the projected costs, so things are in a holding pattern at the moment.  I am open to the idea of a Christmas gift, which is what I told him, but the lack of a response makes me think that maybe his mother (my Ex) may have gone behind my back and bought him a new phone.  If so, it sends the wrong message, in my view.

As you describe, it's challenging; I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place.  The reality is that our r/s has been strained for a long time.  I remain hopeful and will continue to reach out to him, yet have to be realistic that maybe he's not ready to reconnect.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

LJ

[once removed]

The reality is that our r/s has been strained for a long time.  I remain hopeful and will continue to reach out to him, yet have to be realistic that maybe he's not ready to reconnect.

LJ, i think it will help us help you in your efforts to reconnect with your son if you will open a new thread and go into a great deal more detail. lay it all out.

as you said, things have been strained for a long time. there is long standing hurt and resentment on both sides. the phone is just the latest in the protracted conflict, and whether you get it "right or wrong" (however it applies here) wont make much difference long term.

additionally, your ex wife may be complicating things, but we dont know in what ways she is or might be, so its difficult for us to advise on how to navigate that.

we dont know more about the efforts youve made to reconnect with your son, whats working, what isnt, what youve said and done, or for how long. we dont know more about what he has said or done or how hes responded.

all of that information would give us a lot more to go on and work with, to help you in your efforts.

what do you think?

[Lucky Jim]

Good point, once removed.  Agree, the phone upgrade is just the latest chapter in a longer story and probably won't make a big difference over the long term.

Once the dust settles on the iPhone, I'll plan to open a new thread laying the whole thing out in greater detail.

The reason I haven't done so already is that it wasn't until this Fall that it dawned on me that my son most likely suffers from BPD, which helped me to realize that I will likely be facing ongoing BPD issues with him.  It's OK and is just something that I need to bear in mind going forward.

Figuring out that he probably has BPD is what brought me to this Board.  It's an interesting development, because I'm divorced from my BPDxW and we are LC, so in general BPD is less a part of my life than it used to be.

Thanks to all for your kind support,
LJ

[once removed]

i look forward to following, and joining in LJ. it will be good to work through the history and the present.