Separated Wife for 60 days has flipped a 180 Need Advice

[Sportyman]

So I've posted here after reading the book Walking on egg shells after my therapist (previously our MC) diagnosed my newly wedded wife with BPD. She's currently undiagnosed (to her directly).

I was shredded to pieces on our honeymoon; slept in a separate room; etc. Weeks later; she said she wanted a divorce and then pulled a knife out in self-harming threats but didn't do anything. I exited the house and we haven't lived together since. She now lives with her dad and for the last 45-60 days I continued my personal therapy, reading self help books, and still continued to reach out to her in HEALTHY ways of re-engaging. Over and over I would get battered down for doing something wrong, or how this is somehow my fault, or that I am being selfish and a failure as a husband for not taking care of her and this is not what marriage is supposed to be. She then threatened to divorce me by Nov 1st if things did not improve (she messaegd htis on Oct 26th). Obviously no filing was ever done.

I have met with her and her parents and mine (we are both 30 y/os) and I stated I've decided to file for divorce to protect myself financially and emotionally. Clearly after this much time being apart, and my constant efforts with didn't yield any results, I need to think with my gut/brain (which I ignored over and over when I tried to call the wedding off) instead of my heart/emotion. Long story short we separated wedding gifts and said goodbye etc.

I had broguht up her seeing a therapist individually and she always said "i dont need it, just becuase my parents separated doesn't mean i need therapy. ... which I continued to try to reason with her and explain that it isnt becuase of her parents, it's becuase of her behavior of not being able to handle her emotions and how deeper there is something that needs to be addressed. She never agreed.

In the last 10 days; I've seen a COMPLETE 180. She has started to message me calmly, no attaks/accusations. She says loving things; she says she is going to therapy on her own and is working deeply on exericises and self reflecting and how it really breaks her down to a vulnerable state. I am not aware of a therapy that goes that deeply so quickly? Perhaps someone can shed some light. I've copied and pasted her EXACT message today when I questioned her behavior and told her I don't know what ot make of the COMPLETE change of action/demeanor and attitude.

I am almost POSITIVE she did not fully confess the actions she did on our honeymoon or previously or how she pulled out a knife on her wrist to threaten self-harm beucase she felt overwhelemd with emotoin and wanted to be heard. In my opinion, I feel this is just a last-ditch effort to try to LURE me in with the F.O.G. I'm not entirely sure but I am very cautiosu and I just feel this is a highly strategized manipulated way of sucking me back into the toxic relationship. I have continued my sessions wiht my T on top of reading codependency books; walking on egg shells; and just surrounding myself with a strong support system (family, friends, gym, etc). It has been a long and exhausting journey for the last 60 days but I know that I am slowly healing, I'm slowly feeling better that I gave it my all, and my mind is making peace that this love may not be best fit for me. What I don't get is how this turnaround in the last 10 days. How can someone literally be this "jakell/hyde"? It's as if she doens't even remember the person she was before.

I also know I'll live in fear, i'm already just waiting for the next cue for her to engulf into a rage/psychosis that will literally put me into the cycle of anxiety/fear/etc.

Any insight/help would be SO APPRECIATED!



Her message today:
I understand, take your time to process. I hope you mean a change for the better!  I've been going multiple times a week and they have been some pretty intense/deep sessions. I talk about my feelings but I also complete different exercises, role playing, readings, homework, etc that make me reflect deep within and really just strip me down to my most vulnerable state, but also teaching me to neutralize my emotional charges so that i can communicate effectively and healthily. I know there is fear, but all I can do is ask you to have faith, even if just a little, hopefully that faith will grow over time!

Part 2: It's not a commitment to therapy, it's a commitment to myself and to my relationships. And my parents separation is still not the root of any feelings or actions i have, but there are others things I've come to learn by being forced to pull back the layers. Like I said, it's not a traditional therapy where I sit and talk and vent, but each time I do different exercises that make me dig more than maybe I was willing to or thought I needed to before. I was still skeptical myself when i first went in. I can't force or expect you to believe me, but hope that you can gain faith in time. And it's not all of a sudden, it's still a work in progress, as is life. I just ask for your faith and support, and ask that you please don't discount my efforts (not saying you are). I see the difference it has made for you and hope it can for me as well.

[once removed]

I just feel this is a highly strategized manipulated way of sucking me back into the toxic relationship.

pwBPD are highly impulsive and lacking in relationship skills.

its probably not a question of whether she is trying to suck you in or manipulate you, or sincerity. shes probably very sincere.

there are probably some questions when it comes to follow through (will she stick with it), motivation (how much of it is for her vs born out of the fear of losing the relationship) and whether its enough for you personally to hold out on. plus its probably like losing weight... .you lose the first ten pounds quickly, you feel more motivated, you see some results in therapy, you feel motivated.

is it enough for you to hold out on? are you having second thoughts, or looking for insight into whats going on with her?

[Notwendy]

I think the behavior is purposefull, but I agree it may not be some kind of trickery. In the moment, she may be sincere but her emotions may fluctuate. The painting the partner black/white and the push/pull is a common aspect of BPD.

I agree with your concern that treatment results for a long standing issue are not immediate. I'm not a professional but I think working on a  long standing mental illness would take a lot longer time in therapy than this to see lasting results.

For you, I think a decision would be based on whether or not you are willing to hold out for any long term change if it were to happen, or not.

[Sportyman]

pwBPD are highly impulsive and lacking in relationship skills.

its probably not a question of whether she is trying to suck you in or manipulate you, or sincerity. shes probably very sincere.

there are probably some questions when it comes to follow through (will she stick with it), motivation (how much of it is for her vs born out of the fear of losing the relationship) and whether its enough for you personally to hold out on. plus its probably like losing weight... .you lose the first ten pounds quickly, you feel more motivated, you see some results in therapy, you feel motivated.

is it enough for you to hold out on? are you having second thoughts, or looking for insight into whats going on with her?

I think that's the difficulty, I'm so perplexed after months if not almost a year of trying to get her to seek individual help. Or better yet; even after I found out her diagnosis of BPD after our marriage, I begged her, to no advancement. At this point I've decided to file for divorce to protect myself financially and have some space and not live in a limbo.

The odd thing is she calls me or messages me and is compeltely a different person. I can't imagine therapy changing you in 2 weeks to be a completely differnet person. She cries a lot and expresses her feelings abuot how she wasn't able to express them before, she wasnt able to look inward to process her emotions so that others can hear her. Lots of "healthy" methods that I'm hearing her say.

Unfortunately, in my heart, and in my mind, I'm just "waiting" for the other shoe to drop. I'm scared this is a short-lived progression and it is just a matter of time until somethign goes back to the toxicity. It has to be. It can't be cured as we all know. Once things get worse (financail stress, kids, household responsibilities, etc), what will happen? She keeps stating she was in a dark place in her life which I do not believe (considering we were newly engaged, had a fantastic celebration wedding wtih everything she wished for, and obviously a great honeymoon which she allowed her emotions to take control of her negative feelings). It was indeed a difficult time as w ewere struggling before the wedding and what not.

I guess i'm just lost - how can someone change their approach/attitude/efforts so drastically so quickly? It's as if she woke up as a new person and now is a compassionate/patient/forgiving individual. While before, she found ways to do the victim/abandonment/projecting emotions/ etc onto others.

I was just curious if anyone else has seen this type of behavior with their BPD loves ones.

[AskingWhy]

I agree about the manipulation.  pwBPD are chameleons.

A case in point is the abusive BPD H terrorizing his wife by breaking furniture and threatening her with harm to herself, the children and the pets.  When she calls the police and they show up, the H is calm and composed, and makes out his wife to be the "crazy and violent" one.

Sportyman, although this is promising, I would say be guarded. 

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband roped me in time and time again with promises that he had "seen the light" and major epiphanies about how he had changed. Unfortunately he couldn't maintain being the "enlightened being" that he claimed to have become and went back to being his abusive self, often within a week.

I kept hoping for miracles, but was sadly disappointed over and over.

Who knows, maybe she can change in a short period of time. I wouldn't bet on it.

[Notwendy]

I'm skeptical of the fast change behavior.

In my experience, the push /pull is cyclic. Yes, I have seen this kind of thing. It happened in my own marriage as part of a cycle where my H would turn into the man of my dreams, then the anger, painted black returned. I would get my hopes up and then it wouldn't last. Finally,  the "being good" just didn't work for me. I was too emotionally wrung out from it. To his credit, he agreed to MC, and I also had to work on co-dependency. It took time and work for both of us to improve on the dysfunctional patterns between us. This is why I don't believe in "instant " results with long standing habitual behaviors.

I've also experienced this with my BPD mother. I call it the "dry erase" method. "see I am good now, bad stuff all gone" like erasing a white board. But it doesn't stick. She's had therapy but it has not been effective with her in the long run as she shows no investment in taking responsibility for her actions and doesn't think she needs it.

I think BPD behaviors exist on a spectrum. Like any condition or traits, some people may be more treatable than others. However, I also think these long standing behaviors don't disappear overnight and that improvement takes time.

I don't know how much of this kind of behavior is manipulative or a result of the emotional swings and the nature of the disorder. Maybe some of both and can vary with people.

IMHO, I would weigh this behavior in addition to other factors in the relationship and any other issues such as : abuse, addiction, criminal behavior, infidelity. In addition - people consider the strong points as well as if there are children involved. Each relationship is different and this is why people make different decisions about how much to tolerate and to stay or leave.

[Enabler]

Hi Sportyman,

There's whirlwinds... .and there's whirlwinds... .and there's this. Not to be dramatic but this sounds horrific.

My initial thoughts are, slow down and consider other less binary options. Rather than seeing this as married/not-married or together/not together or divorcing/not-divorcing have you considered other options?

As discussed by the other wise folk here her emotions maybe fluctuating violently from one day... .hour... .minute to the next so seeing some element of consistency is key for you to be able to make a good choice for you. Like Askingwhy mentions, a pwBPD can put a game face on, write a compelling email or text message when required but consistency they tend to struggle with. Her going to therapy is a good thing... .if that is what she is doing. Being part of her therapeutic or at least having passive visibility over that therapy e.g. "T... .Your W attended therapy today, participated well", could give you genuine confidence that she is attending and participating in therapy... .if that was a tick box for you. You could also attend T together for example.

I don't know where you live but in the UK the divorce process can move as quickly or as slowly as you want it to, e.g. you can apply for the decree Nisi which is the first stage, which could take a few months, but you are not officially divorced until you complete the decree Absolute which can be stretched out for several years. So, at the same time as she attends therapy and you live in a state of therapeutic separation you could passively run the divorce process giving you the protection you need financially. How you would verbalise this to her would very critical and I would definitely consult the board. I guess what I am saying is maybe now maybe not the time to make critical binary decisions and it's okay to pursue both routes at the same time. The key would be to ensure that divorce was not seen as a punishment or a threat, whilst keeping the relationship and the love on the table.

Keep your mind open to options which reside in the grey rather than black and white... .leave black and white to her. Keep in mind rehabilitation is possible and you married her for a reason. Spend your time now learning, reorganising those jumbled thoughts and preparing yourself to make good eyes wide open choices.

Keep posting

Enabler

[once removed]

The odd thing is she calls me or messages me and is compeltely a different person.

ive had some significant health issues for several years of my life that kept me pretty debilitated and emotionally unavailable. i saw a bunch of doctors on and off for years, tried some things, got nowhere. people kept suggesting i try these breathing relaxation exercises which seemed silly.  after years, i finally tried them. the first time i tried them, i couldnt stop giggling. after two or three more times, suddenly, my back pain caused by herniated discs that touch nerves, were light years better. people noticed a difference in me immediately. all i did was breathe deeply for 15 minutes at a time.

im not suggesting that shes cured. and im not suggesting shes a completely different person. change takes practice over time to really implement.

but its like the diet comparison i made. it may be that she has found something that really clicks for/with her, and she finds it hugely motivating to stick with. big rewards and results can come quickly when that happens. sustaining it and building on it over time is the challenge.

Unfortunately, in my heart, and in my mind, I'm just "waiting" for the other shoe to drop.

the conflict i think is before you is whether it makes any difference to you. if youre done, youre done.

[lookslikeaduck]

I'm, a newby to this BPD topic, but what you wrote struck me as almost exactly what I experienced... .difference being I bailed before marriage just recently. Family, friends, the gym, healing! Physical and mental health was suffering. It takes a toll on the heart... .

Of what I've seen and read, PBD fear (loss/aloneness?), so then they take action. But actual change takes time, if ever. It sounds like she is doing work, but is the reality that you need to see evidence of change before altering couse? Can your heart take the strain/risk of this for XY years?

Is her mood swing coincide with timing monthly, or just random? curious if there is a hormone driver? Was there other residual stress... .e.g. I understand that exasperates the problem. Wedding, even a good one, might be a feeder.

Question I have is/has anyone figured out how to have a good successful life with such personality without it degrading them physically and mentally to pieces?  I don't know the answer. That be key to your decision... .how do you maintain your sense of self, health, with someone throwing you off balance all the time and as you noted, with added stressors in life. Want to live life on guard like a guard dog... .with person in bed with you? Somehow, you'd have to learn to handle her spells without it hurting. How do you do that?

And then, why the draw by BPD, will I/you draw another "queen BPD" out of the deck and how do we fix that broken part of us to be attracted to someone emotionally healthy? I'll bet you are a caregiver, giving, flexible, not black and white. Are you sensitive?

I'm curious how this goes. I broke up with GF in October and reinforced it several times. She's now started working on her undiagnosed PMDD (it does fit description, but I suspect BPD) and casually working her way back. To me it is the spider taking another attack. I also have residual fear and I don't trust her emotionally.

Curious what culture she is from, but may not matter, just digging... .

[Enabler]

Morning lookslikeaduck,

On the topic of hormone correlation, when I took myself to 30k ft it was clear as day that ‘it’ was always there, it Just got more pronounced when she had her monthlies. She now has early onset menopause which compounds the effects.

How do you maintain a relationship with someone with BPD? It’s tough and requires a significant amount of personal commitment and personal strength. You maybe tested to your whits ends, your reality maybe contorted and you may even have to become a full time detective to work out what the truth is... .and it’s lilely to all be your fault. But, some people are able to manage life with a borderline.

How has your weekend been?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

On hormones and BPD from a female... .


pwBPD experience regular life stresses just like anyone else, but how they manage them depends on their ability to manage their own uncomfortable feelings. I would say that PMS and cramps affects ever woman - some more than others. A woman who does not have a disorder might be irritable and snappy, but would not have behaviors such as raging. With menopause it is more complicated due to the effects of lack of estrogen. Even non disordered women may be more prone to depression and sleep difficulties and for a BPD woman I could see how this would appear to be an increase in BPD behaviors- but it also might be that a BPD woman doesn't have as solid coping skills and that brings out the BPD. It's not the changing hormones- we all deal with that. It's about the coping skills a person has.

How does someone manage a relationship with a pwBPD? For one, BPD is on a spectrum with some people having more difficult behaviors than others. It also depends on the non- and if the non has contributing issues such as co-dependency. I think a good answer is to look at the behaviors and ask yourself- is this something I can manage? What one person can manage may be different from someone else. Are there behaviors that are deal breakers? Not all pwBPD have addictions, not all relationships involve infidelity, but some do and that may or may not be a deal breaker for the partner.

Boundaries are key here. If someone is not already married with children- then they get to choose who to date and can choose a person who meets their values/boundaries. If someone is married, and /or has children then they need to consider the whole picture when deciding to manage in a relationship or to dissolve it.

There isn't one path for everyone.

I do think that if change is possible for a pwBPD in therapy, it isn't quick. One month, and even a couple of months,  is too soon to tell what the long term effects might be.

[Sportyman]

Hi everyone,

I hope you are all doing well on your own journeys and I appreciate the feedback/concerns. I completed my filing on friday and she was served on Saturday (U.S.A.). The conversations with us are cordial and I can see she is making sincere efforts to try to "be herself" and show her "genuine kind side" however, it is the scars that lie within me, the chaos that ensued, the self-harming behavior, the "lapse of memory", the cyclical push/pull or manipuatlion that allowed for her self-vicitmization that clouded my entire judgement. In many ways, I feel relieved, clear, almost like the FOG has slowly burned away as I've worked on detaching form this relationship and the co-dependant behavior. I remember realizing when I was with her that when we were good, I was good, when we were bad, I was bad... when she was unhappy, I would let that reflect on my feelings. It was so toxic I almost feel that the last few years were almost NOT ME. A dissociation of some sort. For now I've made my peace with filing and so I can find a peace in knowing I am not any more financially at risk than I already was. This at least documents it in the system and if we re-engage or if I see a long-term change and my FEELINGS can change, then I absolutely am open to dissolving the paperwork. My difficulty right now is the feeling of numbness and lack of trust/affection towards this relationship. The turmoil, the damage, the chaos that ensued really took a toll on my mental, physical, and psychological well-being. Being 31 years of age, I didn't realize how draining a relationship could be until you take a step-back and assess from a perspective of clarity. My friends/family always told me "i did too much" but I never knw what they meant... I'm codependant and also I love with my entiriety, but boundaries were ESSENTIAL to be developed and respected... I just never knew anything about them.


@Lookslikeaduck -

I'm, a newby to this BPD topic, but what you wrote struck me as almost exactly what I experienced... .difference being I bailed before marriage just recently. Family, friends, the gym, healing! Physical and mental health was suffering. It takes a toll on the heart... .

Of what I've seen and read, PBD fear (loss/aloneness?), so then they take action. But actual change takes time, if ever. It sounds like she is doing work, but is the reality that you need to see evidence of change before altering couse? Can your heart take the strain/risk of this for XY years?

Is her mood swing coincide with timing monthly, or just random? curious if there is a hormone driver? Was there other residual stress... .e.g. I understand that exasperates the problem. Wedding, even a good one, might be a feeder.

Question I have is/has anyone figured out how to have a good successful life with such personality without it degrading them physically and mentally to pieces?  I don't know the answer. That be key to your decision... .how do you maintain your sense of self, health, with someone throwing you off balance all the time and as you noted, with added stressors in life. Want to live life on guard like a guard dog... .with person in bed with you? Somehow, you'd have to learn to handle her spells without it hurting. How do you do that?

And then, why the draw by BPD, will I/you draw another "queen BPD" out of the deck and how do we fix that broken part of us to be attracted to someone emotionally healthy? I'll bet you are a caregiver, giving, flexible, not black and white. Are you sensitive?

I'm curious how this goes. I broke up with GF in October and reinforced it several times. She's now started working on her undiagnosed PMDD (it does fit description, but I suspect BPD) and casually working her way back. To me it is the spider taking another attack. I also have residual fear and I don't trust her emotionally.

Curious what culture she is from, but may not matter, just digging... .

Your curious questions really seem to mirror many of my concerns/worries. To start - we are both of the south asian (indian ) descent but born and raised in America.

She also suffers from polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS)so I noticed over the course of the last year or two that close to her menstraul cycle things would become EXTREMELY elevated; aggressive; huge blow-ups; separation; storming out of the house, etc. During the wedding planning process/relationship, my understanding was this was a hormonal imbalance due to PCOS and that is why she is acting this way. I remember posting on the support group and many members stated "although pcos can be challenging, this seems to be something more". I never fully grasped that until the T informed me she suffers from BPD a week after we got married. Unfortunate timing I guess...

I would love tips or supportive comments if any one has any of how they've survived a relationship with a BPD. What has been a strong suit of behavior for them when a BPD lover spirals or dysfunctions to a point of psychosis or worse. My fears are really about being able to maintain a healthy mindset (mental, physical, emotional) while trying to cope with their unpredictable behavior, the constant victim mentality, the excessive needs that are never satisfying. My greatest fear right now is this "new page" she has turned isn't long to stay. It is so similar to the "diet fad" that others have posted of how it is easy to lose 10 lbs immediately but to sustain that type of "fad" is difficult.

The love will always be there for her, I know that to my core. The concern is how long can my mind,heart, and soul take the beating, the stress, or the worry of the "other shoe to drop". As the book "walking on eggshells" states, it's a heightened sense of mental and physical alertness that is bound to eventually wear down an individual.

Hoping and praying for everyone and their journey.

[Notwendy]

My greatest fear right now is this "new page" she has turned isn't long to stay. It is so similar to the "diet fad" that others have posted of how it is easy to lose 10 lbs immediately but to sustain that type of "fad" is difficult.

I wouldn't call this fear but more the reality of the disorder. From what I have observed, there are moments of clarity, and times of dissociation. It's the whole of the picture. I personally don't think it is possible to make a prediction on a short term sudden change. I think pwBPD can "hold it together" when highly motivated for a short period of time.

It's also the nature of the disorder to affect the most intimate relationships the most. The two of you are not at the moment, living together or being intimate. It's the day to day with an intimate partner that can be the most challenging. It is possible that she is able to be more composed at the moment with you. She is also highly motivated- like the diet fad at the moment. To see long term change if it were to happen, takes time.

How someone maintains their own sense of self in a relationship is variable. I think it is important to consider how you functioned in the relationship. You described it well- you felt as if you were not you, and in some state of dissociation. Hopefully you can rediscover "you" - spend some time as "you" so you can assess what is it you really want in a long term relationship.  

[Enabler]

Can you get to the bottom of why you were not you, why you were compelled to mirror her emotions?

Do you think you could be you if you genuinely knew that none of it was your fault and you needn't react?

[Notwendy]

I agree her behavior is about her.

However I think you have an understanding of your own co-dependent tendencies and how this relationship affected you. You also now have a choice, as a single person- having started the process of divorce- to continue with this one, or decide it isn't what you want to make a lifelong commitment to.

Rather than look at her over time to see if she has changed, maybe invest this time in yourself. If you lost yourself in the relationship, then getting yourself grounded may bring some clarity about what to do.