My 41 yr old unBPDd is bullying one of us

[Manifest32f]

Hi everyone:
I desperately need some advice. My 41 yr old unBPDd is bullying one of us, her elderly parents, especially since we started staying home after retirement just recently. Our plan was to leave her to be on her own and go away to live on our own quiet far away. She is terrified of the prospect it’s very obvious because she has never lived on her own and worried how she would manage. She is a very intelligent professional who manages a group of people and in a very demanding job. She takes out all her frustration at work on us since she hates her job and wants to leave it but also not diligently looking to change. Today she is taking her father to task because he said something just before she went to bed and she says it upset her so much that she is now not going to sleep but verbally torturing him. I feel bad but I am staying quiet upon his advice since she will do the same to me until the dawn! My husband unfortunately doesn’t understand her illness and how she acts and doesn’t know how to set limits even when I try to teach him.

Do We need to firmly establish our departure time and just let her know or will she escalate and become unmanageable? Any suggestions? There are very few days when we are having a peaceful day and even that is never a guarantee because she can start ranting and raving with very little excuse. It is very sad and horrible to go through this. Sorry.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Turkish]

Do you fear that she might do something other than be verbally abusive?  Adult protective services takes their job seriously.  I've dealt with them. 

[Manifest32f]

Hi: I don’t think so because a couple of years ago, she pushed me when I tried to comfort her by getting closer to her and she was shocked by what she did. After that we discussed (we were in therapy at that time) and she asked that we don’t invade her space especially when she is angry and upset so we keep a safe distance. I know she is hurting terribly but her anger so volatile that we are taken by surprise every time. She is a very loving and giving child but her dysregulation interferes with her having a peaceful life. For Christmas she took us and 2 of her friends out to dinner and spent a couple of $100. She is very generous with everything and she has invited 10-12 of her friends this weekend for dinner and we are supposed to cook and arrange things together. Now she texted me from her BR (10feet away), asking us to leave asap! These mood swings are very regular and she will calm down in a day or two but when she starts, it is very disheartening and debilitating for all of us. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for adult protective services resources. I used to work in social services and am familiar with them. They are great as you say. Thanks very much for your concern. Happy New Year!

[Turkish]

How have the validation tools like SET worked with her? 

What's the plan for leaving?  Is she taking over your home and has to pay for it?  What is your plan?  Likely she will become more dysregulated because as you say she's "terrified." Do you think that is due more to she being on her own or losing emotional support, or both?

[Manifest32f]

Hi: re the apartment, she said she wanted to stay here and started paying rent for the past 6-8mns. Re our departure, we have been saying it for over a year and just recently my husband retired and we are slowly starting to clear the place so she could be more comfortable with less clutter. The plan is to go away for a couple of months initially so she could try it out on her own and get used to it as years go by. She is an only child and although she has some friends, she is very worried that we are going to be quiet far away (~30hrs by air!). We are also worried but economically it is not feasible to live anywhere near by and that will not give her the opportunity to be on her own when we are gone but we can always come back when she wants us to. We want her to have her own space and not always be tied to her. I think it’s very unfair. Earlier when I wanted her to move out and be on her own, my husband discouraged it and she also was not very enthusiastic so I didn’t press on it. Now I don’t want to postpone any more and leave her high and dry if something should happen to us.

I hope she realizes it is for her good that we want her to live on her own and comes to terms with it soon. I feel ok one day when she plans and verbally acknowledges things we should take or she will do, etc. and then the next minute, she will completely turn around and blame us for something trivial and accuse us of being horrible parents! It’s very difficult. Thanks for listening. I am so sorry.

[Turkish]

We want her to have her own space and not always be tied to her. I think it’s very unfair. 

What do you think is unfair, that she expects you to provide for her?

[wendydarling]

Hi Manifest32f

It's me again   I admire you, you're working through all the preparation, gently, a year in the making. I also understand your frustration, like when is this going to happen. I too want my DD to live independently, she'll have to, that's the reality, we're not going to be here forever. What she has told me she does not want to live alone, that's in her plan. Would your DD welcome a lodger, is that feasible? Is your husband on plan, is he ready, you say he's previously discouraged her moving out on her own?

WDx

[Manifest32f]

Hi Turkish & Wendydarling: 
Thanks for your prompt response. Sorry I didn’t know where I could hold the name!

[Manifest32f]

Hi: I wrote a long narrative and tried to post a couple of minutes ago and when I go in now, I don’t see it. Any suggestions how to locate & retrieve it? I don’t have the energy to write it again!

[Turkish]

Try hitting the back button on your browser a few times.   If you see the text, copy it and post it into a new reply. 

[Manifest32f]

Re the question, what’s not fair?’, I feel strongly that we failed in our duty to teach our child how to live independently, to be confident that she could do it and not to be afraid of making mistakes when she tries anything and instead learn from them. I also feel guilty that I didn’t stand my ground and encourage my daughter to move out when she expressed it albeit they were half-hearted, and kept quiet when my husband was discouraging it. She always accuses me of that and I have tried to apologize but it has not helped. I know she is terrified of living and making it on her own since we are not going to be near her so she could run to us or ask us to help out and that worries her. She gets into rage and verbally attacks us, especially when others ask what our plans are about leaving. We have not been able to sit and plan it at all since it’s never a good time, to discuss it! We want her to be part of the planning process so she knows & accepts it. But I am afraid it is never going to happen. Do you have any suggestions how we could go about it? Any suggestion would be very welcome

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

It's not easy. I'm wondering the longer you defer the more anxious and avoidant she becomes? Will you be able to face time her?

[Manifest32f]

Hi WendyDarling:

The challenge is, we all live together and whenever we attempt to ask if we can set aside some time to talk/discuss various things, she suggests we try ‘later’, and there’s never any good time, even to discuss setting aside some time, let alone really discussing anything! Her excuse is, she is tired, stressed with work related problems, etc. To be fare, she works long hours, her job is very demanding and she also has some health issues due to stress and vice versa, that is interfering with her ability to handle anything once she is done with work (which is needed since it’s her bread and butter!).
It is also a dilemma for me, since I suspect like you suggested, she is avoiding it due to a sense of fear of abandonment and having to face everything on her own. At the same time, she mentions some plan or another, at least once a day, either for herself or us, about ‘the time when/after we leave’, which makes me wonder why she is not going through with sitting and planning.

Do you have any suggestions on how we can pin her down to sit and discuss our (hers and ours) next steps? You all have been great help to me and I am so sorry I keep turning to you for tips!

[Music Ace]

Manifest32f - these are EXACTLY the people to turn to and ask for suggestions and ideas. Take, try, consider their ideas ... .and incorporate what you feel you can or you think might work for your family.

Your retirement years - YOUR years ... .what you have worked so long and hard for. I can't imagine how difficult this is. You envisioned a different relationship with your daughter as well.

Now you are feeling that you are ready to take back your goals and ideas,  but not everyone is going to be excited about it. Change is scary at the best of time. My daughter explains that what I fear she would experience 1000x more intensely. I can't fathom what your daughter would fear with her imaging that her anchor and core strength will not be at her beck and call.

But ... .does that mean you should NEVER be allowed to leave and do what you'd like to do? Absolutely not.

So I hear you still want to move ... .but do you want to move to experience something new and exciting or do you want to move away from stress and chaos and 'fear'. Does your husband envision his retirement 'move' for the same reason?

I'm wondering if a conversation between you and your husband might allow you to both have the same goals and therefore be able to have the same conversation with your daughter when that presents itself.

You mentioned she is a professional in a management type position.  Could you approach her in a business way? Set up a meeting with an agenda and time limit? (Could be that she might find it funny? Could be that she'd appreciate know what's going on in advance? Could it just tick her off)  You know her best, this was just a different spin ... .with no real rationale ... .just an idea.

Wishing you luck and peace.

Ace

[GaGrl]

Just an idea... .

Are you making legal arrangements to be able to retire and move so far away? If that is the case, can you have your estate lawyer facilitate a meeting with your daughter, so that she understands the financial resposibilities, g consequences of mismanagement, etc. With which she is being left? Would she take that seriously and not be dismissive?

[Manifest32f]

Hi MusicAce & Gagrl:
 Thank you for the wonderful ideas

[Only Human]

Hi Manifest,

I thought I posted here last night, I guess it didn't take.

I'm short on time at the moment, but wanted to ask - - Would your DD be receptive to you giving her an "out" as it relates to the talk that you'd like to have? For instance, "DD, there are a lot of arrangements to be made. I'm sure it's overwhelming and if you'd like, dad and I can write up the things we'd like to discuss and we can take them one at a time, at your convenience."

~ OH

[Manifest32f]

Hi OnlyHuman:

That’s a great idea and I have actually written down a list of things to discuss from budget items and how to save up by ordering in bulk every couple of weeks, different groups of items that can be purchased in rotation, so that she would find it easier to budget and plan her expenses and space in the apartment to accommodate them. When I ask her for a convenient time to discuss and look at the way I have been doing, she always finds an excuse to avoid making a commitment to sit down or even when she reluctantly agrees, prioritizes something in its place at the last moment and either promises to reschedule or gets defensive and storms out, all of which may indicate she is terrified to face the prospect of being on her own. We successfully sat her down and discussed how she could budget, item by item, so she knows she can comfortably manage. We have yet to go over so many other things and there’s never a good time to do them! As I had stated earlier, she is having some health issues (severe allergies, asthma, acid reflux, etc.) that she keeps falling sick frequently and never has any energy to do much after a long and stressful day at work. However my worry is, she has to learn to balance them on her own and sooner the better. I don’t really know how to resolve this. In the midst of all this, when she starts to disregulate, I wonder what am I doing here, instead of leading a retired life!

Thank you all very much for your support and suggestions! This has been a great resource for me. Love you all

[Only Human]

Will your DD be taking over the lease when you go?

What are the specific things you feel are necessary to discuss?

~ OH

[Manifest32f]

Hi Only Human:

Thanks for your prompt response. Re taking over the apartment, that is the plan, to get the lease under her name and live here unless/until she decides to move away some place.
Re other items on my list, for one, she has asked me to teach her our cooking and I wrote some recipes and when she tried one, she complained continuously how badly I had written it down (being an OCD everything has to be perfect for her) and was verbally putting me down but being me, I suggested she modified it as per her convenience when she tries each one and then make a final draft. I wrote some 30-40 recipes and she just tried one! Earlier she demanded I teach her all that I know ~100 of them but I told her that she would easily get the knack once she learned the basics and she seemed to accept that. Since her last attempt about 4-5 weeks ago, she has not tried anything. At this rate, I will never leave her side!

[Turkish]

I was a latchkey kid and a bachelor until 37. Hamburger Helper, various kinds,  adding vegetables (onions,  squash, etc) into the mix, did me fine for so many years.  Maybe it wasn't the healthiest, though I used ground turkey,  but it was sufficient. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Manifest32f]

Hi Only Human:

Thanks for your prompt response. Re taking over the apartment, that is the plan, to get the lease under her name and live here unless/until she decides to move away some place.
Re other items on my list, for one, she has asked me to teach her our cooking and I wrote some recipes and when she tried one, she complained continuously how badly I had written it down (being an OCD everything has to be perfect for her) and was verbally putting me down but being me, I suggested she modified it as per her convenience when she tries each one and then make a final draft. I wrote some 30-40 recipes and she just tried one! Earlier she demanded I teach her all that I know ~100 of them but I told her that she would easily get the knack once she learned the basics and she seemed to accept that. Since her last attempt about 4-5 weeks ago, she has not tried anything. At this rate, I will never leave her side!

[Only Human]

Thanks for more information. It's awful that she berated you for how you wrote the recipe, then put you down while she was trying it out. I would be tempted to let that one go - she doesn't want to learn, that's her choice. If she asks for another lesson, great - but use the communication tools here to protect yourself from further verbal abuse.

What do you think?

The way your DD is avoiding any discussion makes me wonder if she might be feeling like you're trying to tell her how to live her life. It's understandable that you'd want to share tips to make her life easier, budgeting, buying in bulk, etc., but she may perceive it as controlling. My DD told me, more than once (I'm not always a quick study!) "When I come to you with a problem, I don't always want you to solve it for me. When you do, it makes me feel like you don't think I can do it on my own." (I'm paraphrasing, my DD is not that eloquent)

I could be way off the mark here.

~ OH

[Manifest32f]

Dear OH:

I think you have a great point there. Thank you

[Only Human]

I'm glad my input was helpful. It's so difficult to watch our adult children struggle, we are moms - we care deeply and want what's best for them. When they reject/avoid, sometimes the best we can do is step back and let them come to us (or not!) Above all, we must take very good care of ourselves

~ OH

[Only Human]

How's it going, Manifest?

[Manifest32f]

Thank you for checking up on me, OH. For now, things are rather quiet (I am afraid to even say it), and the past weekend went very well. We watched some movies on Netflix, relaxed and she made lunch and dinner (pasta, salad, sandwiches,etc.) insisting we relax and just spend time watching movies together. This has always been one of the many things she wants us to do as a family so she will have some great memories when we are away! We enjoyed it very much also and acknowledged the effort she took and appreciated & thanked her. She said we could perhaps do something similar again and we said we would love that. She keeps referring to our departure and I am really not sure how to start engaging her in booking our tickets. If you or anyone has some suggestions, could you please share with me? I never seem to feel comfortable with starting the conversation re that. My husband is not good since he has no clue how to say anything and not very interested in getting the hang of it either!

[Only Human]

Your weekend together sounds really nice, Manifest, nice memories for you all.

I can relate to now knowing how to bring things up, especially when things are going well!

Can you explain what needs to be discussed regarding the tickets? Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post. You say she keeps referring to your departure, how so?

~ OH