H wants to support the family but has a sense of unfairness about money give to me

[Notwendy]

I see some similar dynamics. My H wants to support the family but he also has a sense of unfairness about money "given" to me. The bulk of what I spend is on family and household expenses. Even though he perceives it as money "for me" he somehow doesn't make the connection that he also eats the food I used the money for and cooked it, uses the toilet paper, sleeps on the sheets, washes with the towels... .etc. If I bring it up his answer is " well I don't eat as much of it since I'm not home as much". Somehow in his mind it adds up to "unfair".  Even though I am basically frugal the thinking in his mind is unfair.

I use a car more than he does. He uses his to mainly go to work and back, while I cart the kids around, carpool, and we take "my" car on family trips. As a result, that car tends to get more wear on it. I've noticed that when it is time to get a car " for me" - he also decides he needs one. My priority is safety and room, for the kids, their stuff, for family outings. After we get one for me, he then orders one from the dealer, brand new, high end with all the best features on it. My car is from a second hand dealer. It's nice and I am happy with it. I've noticed though, that if he gets something nice for me, he seems to have to then also get something nicer for him. I think it helps ( temporarily) alleviate the sense of unfairness he feels when he does that.

Maybe it's a bit like getting two Rolex watches to one gate opener.

It's nice to have nice things and there is nothing wrong with having them if can afford them. But the underlying perceptions that drive the "need" for them can be a problem.  My H has told me he knows I am more frugal than he is. However, his perception that things are unfair to him isn't alleviated by having these nice things.

[formflier]

We all obviously think very differently about money.  I tend to view it more as a tool to accomplish things, rather than as something with intrinsic value (even though I know there is value there)

Rather than "fair" I think a lot about the "return" I get from an "investment" (spending decision).  That leads me to think a lot about the "costs" of alternatives to include the "status quo".

So it seems clear to me there is a "cost" of leaving the gate as it is.  That "cost" is hidden to the "investor" in Cat's situation.  Once he starts closing it again he will get a better "analysis" of the cost.

FF

[Notwendy]

I feel differently about it too. I don't feel deprived of things at all, and I am grateful for what we have. It doesn't matter to me where the car comes from as long as it is safe and reliable. I doesn't matter to me that my H has the fancier car  if it makes him happy but it doesn't alleviate the feeling of unfairness for long.

The pervasive feeling of unfairness is emotional, not factual. I don't think our situation is unfair, but materially it's obvious who has the nicer things, the more things, and it is him. I recognized that, for things to not be more unhappy than they are, it has to be that way. For me, it means much more that the kids have what they need for college and that we have enough of what we need.

This pervasive sense of unfairness has driven a lot of our issues. He digs his heels in over small things because they trigger this. I recognized that he would not dig his heels in over what we need- home, food, college expenses. He has enough ability to recognize the value of those things. So he does it with the lesser things. Doing the dishes triggers this feeling- he feels it is absolutely unfair to him if he did that, so he doesn't. Helping with the kids when they were little felt unfair to him, so he didn't.

I cherish that I have the kids with me in the car. That car took them to school and picked them up, drove the soccer team, drove the musical instruments, drove on the school field trips. His sense of "unfairness" took him away from us, not closer to us. I wanted him to be with us, begged him many times to pick up the kids, drive on a field trip. He refused because it was "unfair". I'm not sad over him getting the nicer car. I'm sad that his feeling of unfairness has been an influence on the relationships he has with his family- us.

[formflier]

Can he articulate what money "means" to him?

There are things that I often do that don't make "financial" sense, unless you look at the underlying "reason"... .and oddly enough, sometimes there is an emotional thing there.

Since we are talking about cars.

A 1996 Subaru has filtered it's way down through various family circuits to our family.  My wife's "Mamaaw" bought it brand new.  Clarity:  Her son bought it new for her.  So... there is history there.  The car has in the upper 250k miles on it.

It was first "bought" (read given or "forced bought") by my oldest nephew.  "Everyone" just knew that he was going to learn how to work on it and "the car" was "the thing" that was going to turn him into a fine young man.  My nephew didn't want it because it wasn't new and shiny... .he is the kind of kid that only shops at malls... .brand name.  (this is same kid arrested for assaulting his Mom, my wife's sister)  He shouldn't have assaulted her... .but her BPD lead the way and "caused" it.

Most non BPDish people don't wake up drunk teens and rage at them.  Drunk teens don't have self control and look for quickest way to turn off the rage... .he picked his fists.

Back to the car... they did nothing with it... it rotted for a couple of years. 

Finally it came to my 2nd oldest son for a couple hundred bucks.  We started fixing it up and I used it as a teaching tool to teach my kids to be mechanics.  No better teaching tool than a car with lots of worn out parts.  Kinda neat for me too because I've never worked on Subarus. 

Anyway... .my 2nd oldest finally bought a really sweet car that he had been wanting for a long time and now the Subaru has passed down to 3rd boy... .who gets his license in a few weeks ( )  And FF gets more gray hair.

Does it make "financial sense" to put a couple hundred bucks of parts into a totally new brake system... .most car guys would tell you not to at this age vehicle.  But 3rd kid did 90% of the work putting it all in and is rightly very proud of his work.

All of that makes "thoughtful" sense to me, yet I can't deny an emotional element of wanting to preserve something of Mamaaw's (I was very fond of her) and there is also an emotional thing of sometimes going over the top to accentuate the different "return on investment" of different parenting styles.

While my wife has some oddities in how she emotionally relates to the kids, she's 100% onboard with high grades, boys being raised to be gentlemen and kids that can do for themselves.

Anyway... that got a little long. 

Good discussion... keep it up.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think he can articulate the emotional side of money. It isn't all just the math. I think this is why money is a difficult issue in some marriages- dysfunction plays out in any area that has emotions attached to it.

Money is one of several issues that is attached to his sense of "unfairness". He wanted a traditional marriage and to be chief wage earner. It's part of his identity that he does that. I had a potentially decent earning career when we married but as I took on all the child/home duties and didn't advance while he focused all his attention on career, the wage earning potential discrepancy between us got greater.

He both takes pride in being the main wage earner and also resents it. Where the money he earns is spent is filtered through his sense of unfairness. Hypothetically picking a number- let's say $500 is "given" to me for expenses. If this goes to food, household items or if I were to spend it all on myself- it is still perceived to him as "money he gave to me". Since I manage the household and kitchen- it does mostly go to food and household items but it's the same to him either way emotionally. Since he may only eat a fraction of the food bought, he doesn't rationalize this as a family expense that includes him. He has mentally seen the money as two pots- his, and "me and kids" and has to have things divided so he doesn't feel it is unfair to him. That means going out an buying expensive personal things as it feels better to him.

My version of things is that- this is our house, these are our kids not "him" separate from "me and the kids". Of course this includes who we are as individuals- and if he really wants something and we can afford it, he should have it. However if I wanted some things equally as expensive as he has, he would consider it unfair since he already "gives me money" for the household expenses. His personal expenses need to me more than mine are for him to not feel he is being "taken advantage of".

This idea is especially difficult for me because I do not take advantage of him and I have been responsible and frugal with money. I watched my mother spend us into debt growing up to buy expensive things- she didn't contribute much to the household and I see that as taking advantage of my father. But I don't do that, and I do take on the work of house and kids. Intellectually my H knows this, emotionally this sense of unfairness isn't factual, but if emotions feel like facts, then this drives his feelings over money.

I'm all for him getting a car he likes, and if it makes him happy. I just wish it did the job of taking care of the feeling of unfairness, but that is a part of him that plays out with possessions and other things.

I'd be all for spending money for brakes to keep a Subaru running, especially with teen drivers. I also think it is a good investment if a child is learning to work on the car and install the breaks.

[Enabler]

HNY all,

I did an economic degree at university and work in finance so get a little excited when people discuss the meaning of 'money'. Money for me can be described as 'choice tokens'. Money itself has little in the way of intrinsic value, however it buys you choices. The more money you have, the more choices available, similarly, the less money you have, the fewer choices you have. Now, don't get me wrong there are some choices which are out of the bounds of moneys reach, but on the whole they are relatively limited. I tend to re-base most things back to monetary terms to ascertain 'value'. An example of value would be... .My D10 asked for a lego set for her birthday, it was £95 new, I noted that a used set (exactly the same) was £35 on Ebay. I said to D10, I'll give you £95 in cash, you can either buy the new lego set for £95 or you can buy the used lego set from Ebay for £35... ."What's the difference Daddy?"... ."Well D10, one comes in the box and has all the pieces in sealed plastic bags and the other doesn't". She bought the used set from ebay as she established the value of sealed plastic bags and the box was £60. Similarly I am indifferent between the McDonalds double cheese burger for £1.29 and a Goodmans hand crafted steak burger for £16.50... .both are excellent for what they are.

My W on the other hand struggles to establish value in this way. I've often wondered why but think it has something to do with black and white thinking. Given the choice between the 2 burgers mentioned above at each cost I would be relatively indifferent, however she would have no hesitation at all other than to go for the £16.50 Goodman's burger. She would ascribe no personal utility from the McDonald's burger (she would eat and enjoy if alternative wasn't available) and give no reference to the monetary difference or ability to almost 13x the number of burgers, she would just say "the Goodman one is what I want". Her choice is driven by her emotional gauge and sense of which one will make her feel better, rather than any common denominator e.g. money.

I feel this type of thinking is one that IMHO pollutes a lot of our SO's thinking. I guess that it's the type of thinking that drives people into huge debt, drives people to sacrifice families for drugs or booze, drives people to have affairs rather that resist temptation. If your gauge for making decisions is how you feel and what makes you feel better you're never really tying your decisions down to a concrete foundation... .you're tying your decisions to something which is seemingly transient. I often wonder about the romantic notion of "I'd still be the happiest person alive if we lived in a cardboard box as long as we have each other"... .well would you reeeeeeeeally be happy, or would you have all these unintended consequences of the cardboard box living that would actually massively outweigh and detract from the awesomeness of your love together.

I think that my W who's feelings told her that D would make her 'feel' way better is slowly realising that D may also make her 'feel' way worse in other respects, and that although I have no value on an emotional level for her, I have value from a practical and economic perspective... .the romantic notion of living in a cardboard box as long as she's not with me has it's leaky roof issues!

FWIW I am the financial rounding number in our household and although I am the primary breadwinner I also have little in the way of control over what is spent... .since 'controlling' money is abusive, in her mind that means questioning expenditure is also abusive... .and that doesn't mean "why did we get granary bread rather than plastic white bread", more "Why are our kids having smoked salmon for breakfast?"

Notwendy, have you considered opening a separate "house" account and allocate a specific amount of money to that... .and then have a separate amount of money specifically to you? I am sure he would struggle to argue that you don't deserve any of your own money. At the moment the 2 pots are too mixed up and confusing for him.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

Enabler- this statement is spot on- If your gauge for making decisions is how you feel and what makes you feel better you're never really tying your decisions down to a concrete foundation... .you're tying your decisions to something which is seemingly transient.

My H and I can agree on the basics for a budget and spending has not gotten into major trouble but he does do impulse spending that IMHO is excessive. I have little input into that as he is the breadwinner. We have tried the personal allowance thing and it doesn't work. He resents mine and feels it is unfair. His has to be larger than mine. If I want something, I have planned it it out of the household account. Things have thankfully changed recently as I am also working again. It's interesting as he's expressed resentment over his position as breadwinner as well as take pride in it. My salary is less than his but it has helped some but he doesn't seem grateful for it, actually acts a bit nervous that I have some independence.

My own approach to money is to be mindful of both the math and the emotional aspect.   I see your point where, if your wife feels that controlling money is abusive, it's hard to work with that. From my point of view, my BPD mom was abusive with the money my father earned. I won't swing in that direction. I learned growing up that the emotional impulsive purchase doesn't  buy long lasting happiness, however, spending can make sense when it means better quality, purpose, or value. Although my preference in handling money is different from my H's, I recognize that emotionally it is better if it fits his sense of "fairness" better.

[Enabler]

The tough part about sharing a piggy bank with someone whom spends what they see and makes feeling choices is that if we make positive choices to delay gratification and make value choices, our positive choices are undermined by the other person who see's available money and spends. It sometimes feels like sharing a bottle of fine wine with an alcoholic... .you're still sipping away on your first glass whilst they've emptied the bottled... .any suggestion of witholding your half for another day would seem petty.

We get back to the warped sense of "fair"... .(pwBPD)... ."I'll flit my money away on meaningless tat, but when you go out and purchase something good you've saved up for, I feel envy (negative emotion). To address this I will have to match your purchase".

[Ozzie101]

All this money talk really strikes a chord with me and my situation with H.

H makes about 5x what I do. I've been looking for a higher-paying job in a more stable industry (I'm a newspaper writer) for years now. Unfortunately, my skill set doesn't easily transfer to other industries. However, I am looking and am even looking into going back to school to get a different degree. H is supportive of all that.

We do just fine financially, but this past year, we had a couple of unexpected financial commitments pop up -- both of them involving me. A reoccurring (as in once every 10 years or so) medical condition flared up and required multiple tests, doctor visits and a couple of out-patient procedures. Since I'm on a high-deductible plan, we were out that money until we hit the deductible. Then, I got into a car accident. Not my fault and no one was hurt, but my car was totaled and we had to buy a new one, meaning we now have a car payment that we didn't want, though we can afford it.

I feel bad about all of that, even though it's stuff I couldn't predict or avoid. I'm well aware he makes most of the money for the family and that's all on his shoulders. When he's in a mood, he points that out -- a LOT. HE supports us. It's HIS money. For the years I was single, I lived on a strict budget and was able to save quite a bit, enough for a downpayment on a nice condo (which I sold after we married). He encouraged me to loosen up a little. If I saw a dress I really wanted, I should buy it. We could afford it. But now, he's more stressed about money. When it comes time for me to pay my credit card bill, he'll quiz me about what I bought, if it's higher than usual. Even when he's in a good mood, he'll talk about how his money is being spent.

My car is a BIG source of frustration for him. I think he's jealous that I've got a new one. He points out that his salary and his negotiating tactics are what got me the car I wanted (true). I'm grateful for that and have never acted otherwise, yet he rubs it in my face.

Anyway, I'm made to feel super-guilty for any money I spend and for the fact that I don't contribute nearly as much to the household budget. I do other things, like a good bit of the housework, etc., in an attempt to make up for it.

It gets sticky when it comes to my family. Any gifts we buy for my parents or nephew and nieces, we're spending "his" money.

He really focuses on this. The way I grew up and have always looked at things, there's just family money. Everyone adds to the household, either through money or through chores or both, and then everyone shares. There's no bean counting or nitpicking on who's bringing in what or spending what. He gets worked up over it all pretty much being his money and how I'm spending more than my share.

He's suggested, during dysregulations, that we separate our finances. We figure up what each owes on mortgage and utilities, etc. I pay for my car. Or he'll tell me that if he divorces me, his lawyer will see to it I'm stuck with the car payments. Or he'll say his lawyer will make sure he gets my car and I'll get nothing. Anyway, recently when he was in a normal mood and started on about money, I repeated his "separate accounts" suggestion. He didn't like it and gave the same reasons I gave earlier (doesn't seem like a real marriage partnership to do that).

I think being the primary breadwinner is a real source of stress for him. He's trapped and can't leave his job because he wouldn't find another one he's qualified for where he would make as much. He's reached the top of his profession. I get that. And I'm working on doing what I can to contribute more. But I hate being attacked and belittled for not contributing as much, or for feeling like the poor relation any time I want to buy something (which I don't do often -- old habits die hard). Or when I think spending $5 each on my nieces and nephew for Christmas while spending $50 on his isn't quite right.

[Notwendy]

It also upsets me when my H calls it "his" money.

Enabler - I think the envy plays out when I get a car and then he also buys a more expensive one for himself. To him, he just bought me a car. Yes, it is the one I use to drive the kids wherever they need to go, run errands for household tasks and my own use. It's actually in his name. He doesn't see what is done with the car- and sadly, he has missed out on the time with the kids, their friends, field trips. I used to ask him to do some of that occasionally - not to make him do "my job" but because of the value of seeing their sports games, meeting their friends, their teachers, but he thought that would be unfair. The car I use gets more wear and tear on it from all the activities and so we need to replace it more often, but if I get a car, he gets one too.

He's even used the time with the kids to justify that it is "money he gave to me" - he says I enjoy spending time with them, so since it is my enjoyment that he doesn't get, the money he gave me for household expenses is the same as if it was a personal account.

It isn't really about money, but the sense of unfairness and this affects how he sees our relationship. I don't even engage in these types of discussions with him, as it just feels sad. I truly enjoy being with my kids. The sad part about this kind of thinking "unfair" is that I think it has impacted his ability to feel close to me and the kids.

[Enabler]

Notwendy, I can sympathise with your husbands stance given a certain mindset and certain situation... .I had a bit of a bad run from 2012-2016, out of work for 20m, Dad dying and kids reaching a very demanding age. Ultimately I shifted from a 20 min commute in an out of town dream job with awesome career prospects to a 1.5hr commute in town with limited career prospects... .good job and I really have no grounds for complaints BUT, a massive reduction life projections. I felt like I was living in a bubble, my family was being 'kept' by me and they were having all the fun. I would leave the house at 6am, and I would come home to domestic tasks undone and be expected to deal with "the sh!t". My mindset was that I WAS DOING this for the family and I EXPECTED my family to acknowledge this and DO WHATEVER they could to improve my life outside work.

My situation was a collection of my choices to maintain a certain income to maintain a certain standard of living for my family and do ANYTHING I could to maximise my income for them. I lost sight that not everything was about money and actually, there was not a direct relationship between income and happiness. My W was making choices to increase leisure and increase socialising rather than increase her efforts to make our family's life better (maybe my definition of what better looks like). I'm pretty sure that both leisure and socialising were not her 'having a jolly' as I perceived it, but her self medicating her emotional terrors.  All I could see was her increasing fun whilst my fun was diminishing. I felt like I was living in a bubble whilst everyone around me was feeding off me.

It's called depression... .

The reality is that it was my choice to keep doing this job, a job that I love and a job that I find very mentally stimulating. I could do another job but I choose not to accept the consequences of changing a skillset, retraining and following a different path.  The reality was that my kids needed my time and attention and not an immaculately clean house and perfectly striped lawn. The reality was that my emotions were tracking someone elses emotions, someone who had no control over their own feelings and had a very limited grip on fact and fiction.

The difference is that if my W would agree to separate personal bank accounts with her 'allowance' and my 'allowance' I'd jump at the chance.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

That must have been tough--

I can understand that, and know my H was working hard. One difference is that I was the enabler ,the emotional caretaker and co-dependent. The more he expressed his unhappiness about how hard he worked, the more I tried to fix it. I didn't do things I enjoyed on my own because it wasn't "fair" to him. He also had painted me black, was raging and giving me the ST. I was basically a live in nanny/housekeeper with benefits for him. The kids were lacking time with their father and things were out of control- I was trying to focus on their needs.

Eventually, I got depressed and started counseling to try to address that. My H also had painful feelings but he projected them on to me and self soothed with spending and his hobbies so it didn't show up as depression. It was a tough time. I understand he had a lot of stresses. It wasn't good for him or for either of us. If not for the kids, I would have dissolved the marriage. Enjoying the company of my kids was the only bright spot in my marriage for me. They were basically the only company I had.

It also prompted a time of personal growth for me and a look at how my own co-dependent tendencies contributed to that. I think in all cases, self care is essential. Giving up too much of that is probably as detrimental as self indulgence. H may have perceived me as having a jolly time when he was at work, but it wasn't jolly.

I think we both brought issues into the marriage that contributed to this. H brought an underlying sense that things are unfair to him. I brought a tendency to give up my wishes to try to fix bad feelings. I tried to "meet him" at his place of fairness- which meant if he was working so hard I had to not enjoy myself as it wasn't fair if I did. On weekends, when he was home, he felt it was unfair to stay home and wanted to spend the days doing his hobbies. I spent weekends alone with the kids so things could be "more fair". I wish it would have worked.  But it didn't work because it didn't fix his feelings. It only led to me giving up my own sense of self and seeing things through his feelings. I had to regain my own sense of self before things could possibly change.

Ironically, you and I both "decreased" our own fun, or our own self care for what we thought was the sake of the marriage and focused on our partner's feelings and needs, even if we were not in the same role of chief wage earner.

[Ozzie101]

The difference is that if my W would agree to separate personal bank accounts with her 'allowance' and my 'allowance' I'd jump at the chance.

A part of me wishes we would do this, even though I argued against it when H first suggested it (though he was dysregulating at the time and wasn't being rational). Then I would feel like I could spend money on some things like birthday gifts for nieces and nephew without the guilt and recriminations. I do contribute money to the family. Not as much as he does, but it's still a contribution. But with it all lumped together, it's easier for him to say, "You're spending my money."

Notwendy, that's very familiar to me. I do work and we don't share children (he has one from a previous marriage who's with us half the time) yet for months now, I've found myself bending over backwards to try to make things easier. I know he works hard and that his job is stressful. Thing is, I work hard too. I know I make less, but I do work a full day. Even in his good moods, he discounts that. I don't make as much money, so my work doesn't count and isn't valuable. If he comes home and I'm sitting on the couch watching TV (maybe relaxing for the first time all day before starting dinner), I'm being lazy and obviously don't have to deal with the work and stress he does. I find myself ignoring what I may want or need and instead jumping through every hoop to try to ease his stress and make him happy.

I'm seeing now how unproductive that is. It doesn't work for either of us.

[Notwendy]

We had the "job wars" too. To him, his job was more important than my job since he earned more. I was a stay at home mom for a while. I'm now back at work, earning less than him. but I realize there is a value to me to my job that goes beyond salary. My H has finally recognized that I am much happier working. He no longer puts down my job like he did before as I won't even engage in that conversation with him. I've gone through a lot of personal work on co-dependency and my H's feelings don't determine my self worth. I still default to cooking to keep the peace and the home is still my job ( kids are older now) but work is a bright spot for me. I feel sad for him that he thinks the way he does about the fairness thing, but I don't think that way and know that I can't take  care of that for him.

I realized that, if I tried living in a tent in the yard, wearing rags and eating his table scraps while he's  in the house eating filet just to try to change the thinking things are unfair, it wouldn't work. What I do doesn't change the thinking.

I find myself ignoring what I may want or need and instead jumping through every hoop to try to ease his stress and make him happy.

I'm seeing now how unproductive that is. It doesn't work for either of us.
 
Exactly!

[Notwendy]

I think I realized something. My H does these little things to have me work on something that he could do himself- maybe to keep the balance away from "unfair"?

I've thought it was odd, so I just ignore it, but it's weird too. On a rare occasion we were at the grocery store ( it was vacation, otherwise he would not be there ), he insisted I push the cart. When I asked him to, he dysregulated. Sometimes if he is taking out the trash cans ( he does that) he insists I carry one can. If he's emptying the trash, he gets me to hold the bag for him.

Mostly I do these things as he isn't around. I empty the trash myself, carry the cans myself, grocery shop myself.

What he seems to like to do is sit at the kitchen table and watch me cook dinner and watch me clean up but often doesn't even talk to me nor ask to pitch in.  He takes his plates to the sink, but won't put them in the dishwasher. It makes me feel uncomfortable to have someone watch me working in the kitchen without being engaged in some way- talking or asking to participate. If he's busy or needs to unwind, fine, but it feels odd to have him sit there being inert and watch me.

I think this is some internal way of keeping score? If I assist in a job- then it isn't only him doing it?

I don't make a big deal out of this, but it seems quirky to me. As to keeping score of household tasks, that's been almost completely my job- so I'm not keeping a score tab. I'm wondering about the resistance to these little things like pushing the cart, or "needing" me to help with a job either one of us can do on our own?

[Ozzie101]

That is kind of odd, Notwendy. And it may very well be his way of making things "fair."

My H doesn't have a problem with housework and he actually enjoys cooking (we both do, so no difficulties there). He doesn't keep score that way, exactly. But he does complain about errands and taking care of household business matters or things like taking his son to school and picking him up. Most days, H doesn't have to be at work at a certain time or leave at a certain time. He's the boss and he's on salary. I'm an hourly employee. The exact times don't matter, but if I leave early or get in late, I have to make up that time somehow. So, it makes more sense for him to take his son to school. Also, it's HIS son and while SS and I get along fine, he vastly prefers his father. But it's a sore spot for H, I know. He sees it as unfair that he has to do things like take him to school or deal with things like baseball registration, etc. (SS's mom has 50-50 custody so she does pitch in on this stuff) while I don't have to. Inside, I'm thinking "Well, I'm not the one who had a child." I would never say that, though. I do help. I'll pick SS up sometimes and I'll help with homework, breakfast, packing lunch, etc. But it's never enough.

[formflier]

Notwendy

Have you ever tried to ask him or listen to him explain why "watching" you work or having you push the cart or any of the other things is a big deal to him.  To let him express in his own words why these things are important?

Was this ever part of the MC you guys did?

Seems like I remember you let him cook for a while... .or let him go without.

FF

[Enabler]

I wonder whether "you're a big boy, I'm sure you can manage on your own" might go down well... .okay, so it's unlikely to go down 'well' and there will be an emotional cost, but you are marking his card over these little things.

That said, these are the little things that degrade a relationship by death by a thousand cuts. When he doesn't help you... .well that's something you're likely to have to live with... .but when he's asking for your help 'just because' is a time where you might want to shine a light on it's absurdity.

I am sure there's a kinder way of pointing this out that doesn't natural spring to my mind at least. Observing and acknowledging internally is part of the battle.

[Cat Familiar]

Sometimes if he is taking out the trash cans ( he does that) he insists I carry one can. If he's emptying the trash, he gets me to hold the bag for him.

I experienced similar odd behaviors in my first marriage. Then, as opposed to now, my husband and I would do projects together. Instead of treating me as a co-worker with autonomy, he treated me more like he was the boss and I was some low-level employee.

He wasn't very organized or disciplined when we did carpentry projects together, but he insisted upon having my total attention so I could be his go-fer at any moment. I would get weary of standing around at attention, so I'd start doing something on my own initiative related to the project--organizing tools, cleaning up messes, doing something that I thought was helpful, etc.

This annoyed him tremendously. He wanted me to be on call to him at every moment. It drove me crazy since so much of his time was spent, well, doing nothing--maybe thinking about what we were doing, but in reality, he was just standing there and nothing was happening.

[formflier]

  he treated me more like he was the boss and I was some low-level employee.

 

My wife appears to like to establish this dynamic with lots of household things.

She will announce that the dishes are put away incorrectly and then "given direction" on how it should be done... .usually with a strong element of "how could someone be so stupid to not see what was done was wrong... "

The last part has gotten much better after I've taken a hard line on it.  I'll ask if there is something she wants to talk through and compromise on and the conversation quickly goes one of two ways... .she ups the ante and I'm gone... .which leaves her doing it herself... muttering loudly, or she relaxes some or sometimes asks in a nicer way.

I pretty much stick around for anything other than upping the ante... .hoping to encourage better behavior.

switching gears

Having a go fer during projects is extremely helpful, but I get it that it kinda sucks waiting to be told.  It's a big "graduation" for my kids when I switch roles with them.  So... .when I leave my kids under the car to work on stuff and I'm the one running for a wrench or some other needed item.  Yet I'm still there and can coach and pass on things

It's also humbling when you realize that they've passed you in ability in some areas.  I'm not that good with electrical and items in the dash of the car.  I'm a big guy... .stuff in there is small and takes lots of patience.

I had to replace an ignition switch on a Toyotal pickup because the key would no longer turn.  Well... all the procedures look easy as long as the existing key will turn to "accessory".  My key wouldn't turn.

The procedures for "my key doesn't turn" involve drilling and destruction... look really hard.  I tried for about 30 minutes to get the key to turn and got frustrated.  Before starting to drill I sent S18 out to try for a bit while I relaxed inside.  I was plotting on all the lessons I would teach him about patience, sticking with it... etc etc.

15 minutes later he strolls in the house and I kinda poked at him verbally about giving up so soon.  He grinned back and said... "give up... I'm done... .new key works great... "

Sigh...

FF

[Notwendy]

My H likes to feel "taken care of" too, and I sometimes think that is behind the sitting there watching me work in the kitchen without offering to help or even try to converse with me. My main focus is on the kids, and it helped to mentally see myself as the hired nanny/housekeeper and just do my job rather than to expect more than that with him. This sounds pathetic, but I was a mom to small kids and felt I did what I could to keep things calmer for them. Divorcing and having two households didn't seem like a solution, he wasn't really around me and the kids much anyway. Either way, I'd be mostly on my own.

FF- the MC mostly focused on me. My H had resisted MC for years. I tried once and he walked out. As far as he was concerned, he didn't need therapy because therapy is a lot of hooey to him. I pretty much hit bottom with the marriage. I didn't care anymore- he could stay, he could leave. I think he noticed this shift and so he agreed, but he did it for the sake of showing up to convince me that he tried- as he still wanted the marriage. My H does not talk about his feelings. I'm not sure he knows why he does these quirky things or he doesn't want me to know. Questions about how he feels or thinks turns into circular arguments. I stopped asking.

Our MC was brilliant. She knew not to get into his thinking. She worked with me on my co-dependency. He also learned some by observing, but keeping the focus on me as the problem allowed her to work with both of us. I credit her for a lot of emotional growth on my part- she also got me into 12 step groups. One of the first things she said to me was "stop cooking for him". I was terrified to not do it. Going to groups also got me out of the house in the evenings ( he doesn't like that). Going to groups was about the only thing I did for myself in the marriage as I was so enmeshed in not doing anything for me because to him it was "unfair".  I told her I felt so guilty doing anything for me because " he has to work so hard". I had bought into that point of view. She helped to change that.

[Notwendy]

I see where we have much in common with our spouses. What do you all think is the source of the thinking things are "unfair"  which drives these other behaviors?

[Fian]

I see where we have much in common with our spouses. What do you all think is the source of the thinking things are "unfair"  which drives these other behaviors?

Matthew 5:40-42 says "And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

I bring this up, because the verses above encourage unfair situations.  This runs counter to our notion to what is fair, and that we deserve fairness.  I think often the justification to a focus on fairness is that you don't want to be a fool, but I think the bottom line is selfishness - looking out for #1.  When you give up worrying about whether things are fair, it frees you up to focus on what matters.  Notwendy, I commend you for not being that focused on whether things are fair - your needs are met, and you are free to spend time with your children.  Your husband sounds miserable, even though the fair scale is weighted towards him.

[formflier]

Those (and other) verses generally seem to believe that through acts of kindness the "other party" will realize they are being selfish, repent and the entire body of Christ will be glorified and stronger.

That's where I struggle to "integrate" my understanding of mental illness and PDs with the intent of scripture.  I simply can't wrap my head around some people with PDs ever being able to "see" things this way.  Soo... how do these scriptures apply to them.  And... .don't scriptures apply to everyone?

FF

[Notwendy]

When you give up worrying about whether things are fair, it frees you up to focus on what matters.

Fian, thank you for your kind words. I think it does come down to a spiritual aspect- and I don't mean attached to a specific religion but a sense of seeing the whole in addition to parts, if that makes sense.

With the "unfairness" I think it stems from an inability to see that generosity doesn't "take" away from a person and that there isn't a limited supply of goodness in the world. If I am kind and generous to someone else- do something for them, give them something, I don't have less. I think it is important to not cross the line into self depreciation, and we should not give so much away that we don't have vital things we need, but there is a joy in giving that someone who isn't able to perceive won't be able to appreciate and that is sad for them.

[Enabler]

What is fair?

Considering what is fair in a relationship between a mother (or father) and a baby... .what does the baby give the mother from a practical perspective? Consider what is fair in a relationship between a husband and his wife with Alzheimer's... .what can the husband expect from his wife with regards to behaviour?

All relationships struggle with the ebb and flow of needs. At different times each partner needs different things, however on the whole the partnership works because each partners propensity to give and take is matched... .that doesn't mean that each partner has the same propensity to give or take but both partners are in equilibrium and on the whole the slope of giving and taking is relatively static... .and therefore perceived as 'fair' or in equilibrium. The tough part of a relationship with someone with BPD traits is that their propensity to give or take changes. My W for example can at times be very reasonable, she can be very considerate and actually very generous and caring... .other times... .hmmm not so much. Like a light switch the green monster can appear and the slope heads ONLY towards her, she becomes insatiably and dellusionally needy. All things point to her and it's very much all about her feelings and emotions and her NEEDS. This would be tough enough, however when/if it swings back it swings back to 'fair', it never swings back to unfair to me (as that would cause rejection sensitivity or feelings of 'unfairness', and as a negative emotion that can't be tolerated), so there's this lingering sense of 'over time things haven't been fair'. Like a ratchet. BUT... .this state of long term unfairness is really only maintained on the basis that I keep a slate (she doesn't), yes there is material evidence of this unfairness such as her gleaming wardrobe full to the brim of shiny new clothes bought when she felt the need to buy herself happiness, vs my frayed rags of a wardrobe kept so in an attempt to balance the household books... .but emotionally, I am the only one keeping a mental note.

Being outcome orientated... .one has to ditch the slate.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

My parents did the same thing. My father denied himself ( and we kids compensated too) to balance my mother's overspending. However, all those nice things haven't made her happy in the long run and my father was generally an upbeat guy even though his marriage was a challenge.

Even if there is no material slate, emotionally there's an impact. For one, it scared me to see similar dynamics in my marriage when I saw my H overspend in an attempt to make himself feel better. Resenting the expense of a family made me feel that he really didn't enjoy having a family- that he was unable to be happy with us. I think he does care about us and it feels very sad to think he isn't able to enjoy our happiness too.

In the early years of our marriage, he wasn't around much. I used to beg him to spend more time with us. He'd reply " I took you out to dinner" or look at his watch and say " we've been talking for 20 minutes" as if he's done his duty and given me his ration of time. When he's with us, he appears to enjoy himself but I have a hard time truly trusting that.

[Enabler]

I took a deep breath and winced last night when W says to D8 "you girls are horrible to be around sometimes, you really make my life hell and it's deeply unpleasant"... .D8 responds "what have I done Mummy, I'm not causing you any trouble". I took her aside when W was out of earshot and said "You have done nothing wrong and you girls are a pleasure to spend time with, you're just kids". These comments worry me... .a lot.

W at times (more often than not recently) rejects the kids when they become emotionally tiresome (more often than not) and aren't additive to her. Sometimes you have to look for rewards in raising kids, even if sometimes that's being impressed by the complex argument they come out with when they're shouting at you and calling you an idiot. I know a lot of peers who simply don't see the point in spending time with their kids, typically talk about them in a derogatory way and see them as a huge chore. I wince at friends who tell me about the great holiday they're going on to Cyrprus where they have staff who get the kids up, give them breakfast, then go to a kids club, give them lunch, then kids club again, then dinner and then they put them to bed... ."all we have to do is sit in the sun"... .soo remind me, why did you have kids and why do you protest that they are soo important to you when you procrastinate about which school is best for them? Children take effort and ironically the reward is that they move further and further away from you... .because in many respects that means you've done a good job (sometimes).

Me not spending the same amount of money as her is my choice, but rest assured it would be my fault if it led us into financial dire-straits. 

[Cat Familiar]

I'm not sure that it's possible not to keep a slate. It seems like it would involve denying the obvious, such as in Enabler's example of his wife having loads of new clothes, while he avoids buying clothes for himself to balance the budget. Now he may not be bothered by that, but he does observe it.

Notwendy's husband seems to use retail therapy to feel better about himself rather than enjoying family life and finding meaningfulness and love there.

This seems to be a similar pattern to Enabler's wife, with the difference being that at times she seems to bask in the rewards of being a mother, then at other times she feels depleted and used and unfortunately communicates that to her children.

[Notwendy]

It's sad to hear Enabler's wife speaking this way to the girls, but it sounds familiar to me and probably typical.

Part of being a teen is differentiating from a parent. They are the ones who are awkward about this- hormonal, young, and don't know who they are yet, so they take the stance of "not my parent" rather than "me" as "me" is still developing. They need to do this to establish themselves as individuals. They can still be well behaved ( and hopefully are) but they begin to question the parents and sometimes take an opposite stance. It's the parent that needs to be mature and non emotionally reactive when a teen is being emotional, and that's a tough job for someone who also isn't good at managing their feelings. I expect this behavior on your wife's part to increase as your girls go through their teen years.

Enabler, you are doing a great thing for your girls to validate their self worth when their mother says this.

I've wondered also about a female BPD and a female teen. There are parts of raising a teen that can bring up emotions for the mother about herself. Then, there are hormones on our part too that are changing which can make us moody and not at our best. It can be an emotional time for both.

A bit about basking in the role of motherhood. Society has a certain reverence for mothers. Fathers need to be commended too for what they do, but traditionally the mother has been the emotional nurturer to children and people see them as nurturers. My BPD mother also wants that kind of attention ( and also has closets full of designer clothes and accessories ) and I think it frustrates her that she doesn't have that kind of relationship with me. So she plays the role with her friends. She presents herself as a wonderful mother and grandmother to her friends. She sees her friends have a good relationship with their grandchildren. Of course she wants that too but didn't have the emotional tools to build a loving relationship with her children.

For my H, his role model was his emotionally distant father who worked and didn't participate in child care. He sees this as his role but the emotional distance keeps him from feeling connected to his family. It makes sense he'd feel resentful, but to connect with his family, he needs to spend time with us and emotionally connect with us.  I think society recognizes achievement in the workforce for men, and not the emotional nurturing, and yet, connection with a father is important to children too and we need to recognize this more.