PART 2: Holidays, vacation, surgery, BPD charades

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Choosing to care-giving or support someone is nothing to be sniffed at. It's probably more valuable when your husband is capable of earning such vast amounts of money. I earn good money (not in his league) but it requires long hours and a decent amount of stress. My W's efforts at home are imperative to me being able to sustain this for the family. I did not ask her to do it, nor assume that she should adopt this role... .she chose to do it. Which is why it is so frustrating when she doesn't see it as anything necessary to maintain... .she sold me the concept of being my support then changed the spec when it came to completing the tasks. Choosing to be his support is an honorable choice... .but this is your choice.

"I would consider what I want, if he were to ask" (Snowglobe)

Why not consider what you want when he doesn't ask. Treat what he demands as just one of the inputs into your decision making process. If you're on business with him supporting him as his PA... .fine, you do as he asks (from a business perspective). Where you sleep and how you sleep and whether you open your legs for him isn't for him to decide. I feel it would be wise for you to sit down and determine a list of my stuff... .his stuff... .our stuff. Work out where your proverbial garden fence is, it sounds like you have no idea where you end and he begins, and you know he has no clue where he ends and where you begin. Last night sleeping out of your own bed worked for you... .tonight it may not and it's totally fine for you to say "That doesn't work for me, if you need to be on your own, that's totally cool with me, I respect your need for space"... .

It doesn't need to be mean, it doesn't need to be aggressive, it certainly doesn't need to be passive aggressive... .it just is.

Enabler

Enabler,
Thank you for your reply, it got me thinking. Your story, resonates with me on many levels. In my situation, uBPDh always maintained “why do you need to work for peanuts, when all of your salary would go towards childcare? Stay home, raise our children, take care of me and support me. I don’t need dinners, as I can dine out, I don’t need you to clean, as I can afford help, I don’t care how you raise the kids, all I need is to be taken care of”. As you can see, his demands are pretty explicit. Except when he isn’t satisfied with me, then he goes on emotional prosecutor’s role “go get a job, I don’t owe any of you anything, I’m sick and tired of all of you, I want to be left alone, bleep off”. When I comply with leaving him alone, I’m being prosecuted further more, as I have failed the test, and it’s a “woman’s role to fix things in the family” ( not sure when he got that notion from. So the only value for him, is when I revolve around him, breathe, his business and well being, worry about him, inquire about him. Without it, in his eyes, I have no value.

[snowglobe]

Choosing to care-giving or support someone is nothing to be sniffed at. It's probably more valuable when your husband is capable of earning such vast amounts of money. I earn good money (not in his league) but it requires long hours and a decent amount of stress. My W's efforts at home are imperative to me being able to sustain this for the family. I did not ask her to do it, nor assume that she should adopt this role... .she chose to do it. Which is why it is so frustrating when she doesn't see it as anything necessary to maintain... .she sold me the concept of being my support then changed the spec when it came to completing the tasks. Choosing to be his support is an honorable choice... .but this is your choice.

"I would consider what I want, if he were to ask" (Snowglobe)

Why not consider what you want when he doesn't ask. Treat what he demands as just one of the inputs into your decision making process. If you're on business with him supporting him as his PA... .fine, you do as he asks (from a business perspective). Where you sleep and how you sleep and whether you open your legs for him isn't for him to decide. I feel it would be wise for you to sit down and determine a list of my stuff... .his stuff... .our stuff. Work out where your proverbial garden fence is, it sounds like you have no idea where you end and he begins, and you know he has no clue where he ends and where you begin. Last night sleeping out of your own bed worked for you... .tonight it may not and it's totally fine for you to say "That doesn't work for me, if you need to be on your own, that's totally cool with me, I respect your need for space"... .

It doesn't need to be mean, it doesn't need to be aggressive, it certainly doesn't need to be passive aggressive... .it just is.

Enabler

Enabler,
Thank you for your reply, it got me thinking. Your story, resonates with me on many levels. In my situation, uBPDh always maintained “why do you need to work for peanuts, when all of your salary would go towards childcare? Stay home, raise our children, take care of me and support me. I don’t need dinners, as I can dine out, I don’t need you to clean, as I can afford help, I don’t care how you raise the kids, all I need is to be taken care of”. As you can see, his demands are pretty explicit. Except when he isn’t satisfied with me, then he goes on emotional prosecutor’s role “go get a job, I don’t owe any of you anything, I’m sick and tired of all of you, I want to be left alone, bleep off”. When I comply with leaving him alone, I’m being prosecuted further more, as I have failed the test, and it’s a “woman’s role to fix things in the family” ( not sure when he got that notion from. So the only value for him, is when I revolve around him, breathe, his business and well being, worry about him, inquire about him. Without it, in his eyes, I have no value.

[Notwendy]

Enabler, one thing I learned in MC about caregiving and caretaking is that- the same action can be from different motives. If one's motive is genuine, and chosen, then that isn't co-dependency and it is a positive contribution to the marriage. If one is caretaking/caregiving out of fears, walking on eggshells, and/or an attempt to manage the other person's moods, then doing that same action can affect a relationship in a negative way.

In my situation I chose to be the caregiver in the relationship. My H also was in a demanding job and my choice to be the support person was beneficial to all of us. One example is cooking dinner. I like to cook, and I do cook dinner most of the time. We also had what I thought was a good sex life in our marriage. But humans are not perfect machines. I would inadvertently trigger my H and he would rage or give me the ST. One thing that would do this would be the times when I didn't cook dinner, or asked for help in the kitchen ( we had small kids, maybe one was sick, and even thought it was my job, sometimes we could use a hand or ask him to get take out one night). I saw from my mother how not having someone willing to do any of these things was destructive. I was willing, I just could have used a hand with it sometimes. I didn't expect these requests to result in rages and then the black and white thinking " we never have sex, you never cook dinner"

I had no clue what was going on at the time, but these rages and statements triggered my own childhood trauma and so, I hid my feelings from my H and went on autopilot. He got what he argued for- a cook, a nanny, a maid and sex when he wanted. But who I was- the real me- that was gone from the marriage. I was a fake person trying to be who he wanted me to be. The drive for that was fear. I was doing all these things to get him to stop raging. That was co-dependency.

When the MC told me to stop cooking, it wasn't because it was wrong for me to cook. It was because I was afraid to not do it and she wanted to help me deal with the fears. When I cooked for him, I was actually managing my own fear by managing my H's feelings. On my part, I was feeling resentful when I cooked. You could say the same for sex. I was afraid to say no if I didn't want to, and also afraid to ask if I did ( he would reject me at times and I think it was punishment). Leaving sex completely on his terms was a way of managing my own fears.

To get to where being supportive was a choice and not a co-dependent mechanism - I had to face the fears. ( she also assessed that I was not in physical danger  if my H got angry ). For my H, he had to learn to self soothe when he was angry but that was not something I could control. I could learn to manage my own fears and that's what she focused on. To face my own fears, I had to stop the dysfunctional ways I was managing them.

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe- your H set up your value scale ( in his eyes) as wife , mother , caretaker and then devalues you on the same scale ( I can eat out, I can hire help).

The answer is to value yourself on your own scale. Since you have a spiritual interest, one way to do this is to measure yourself on God's scale. This is also reinforced in the 12 steps. You were given an ethical code- and if you use this as a guide, you will then act in an ethical way towards everyone, including your H and also including you. You were made to be you, and when you alter yourself to please someone else- you are actually making them your God instead of the Creator.

Enabling isn't ethical when seen in this way. If you are enabling your H to be at his worse ( by reinforcing his acting out when you caretake out of fear) you are not enabling him to be the best version of himself. When he is acting out, he doesn't like himself and so doesn't like you.

You can change the moral code of your family by acting on your own values. When you examine them and act on them, you then set an example for your children. You already know how to do this- you didn't agree to the threesome because it isn't in alignment with your values. If you did agree to it, you would have given up the moral code and indulged your H with his wishes- which would have changed the moral structure you want in a marriage.

Your H's moral code wavers with his moods. Yours can't waver. Your self value lies in living according to your own moral code. The more you can do that the better you feel about yourself ( and humans aren't perfect, we don't always get it right so don't be down on yourself when you slip up- there are also ways to make amends for slip ups)

It can feel scary to be "you" but this is who you are intended to be. The more you can be "you" the less your self image will waver with your H's moods.

[Enabler]

Notwendy, I very very much agree with your points. I think I was painting a picture of how care-giving or being the home manager should work and you're describing how it doesn't work in a relationship where someone see's that role through magical thinking eyes. The dynamic Snowglobe see's (and similar to your own) requires mythical powers of mind reading and super human abilities of pre-empting moving goal posts.

TEAM - Together Everyone Achieves More... .but only when all members of the team work together, and that includes undermining others.

I agree with re-anchoring your definitions of your values and not looking for him to define/approve them. You're going to have to get comfortable with H not liking it so much DK but I think he's under some delusion that the only way he can get his needs met is if he demands you to do it.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

It's a two way mirror:
he's under some delusion that the only way he can get his needs met is if he demands you to do it.

DK is looking to her H as if he is the one who defines her self worth.

Reality- neither of them can bestow self worth to the other- and when you look to someone else for your only source of emotional approval,  it is inevitably disappointing. DK's H is projecting his bad feelings on to her, so that's what he sees as coming from her. She sees herself as a failure because she can't change what he sees. What he sees is his own issues and nothing anyone can do can change that.

It was a good thing for me to shift my sense of self from how my H saw me  to how I saw myself according to my own core values ( and not cruelly strict or perfectionist values). How my H sees me can shift but who I am doesn't.  The more I could act according to my values, the more I could perceive my own self worth. If my H didn't like me at the moment, I could still like me.

[Enabler]

Perfectly put Notwendy

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy and Enabler have offered some excellent advice.

If you support him in the way you're accustomed to when he's being kind, and you don't do those things when he's being unkind, he will learn that if he wants those things, he will need to be nice to you.

In the past, you've provided even more support when he's been unkind (in order to avoid dysregulations and acting out) and that has led him to expect that being unpleasant will yield a positive response from you.

To change this pattern, you will have to retrain both yourself and him. It will take mindfulness to break out of your previous response modality.

But, as you've seen with your example of choosing to sleep alone, the world didn't end. He can learn to behave better if you hold him accountable.

 

[snowglobe]

Enabler, one thing I learned in MC about caregiving and caretaking is that- the same action can be from different motives. If one's motive is genuine, and chosen, then that isn't co-dependency and it is a positive contribution to the marriage. If one is caretaking/caregiving out of fears, walking on eggshells, and/or an attempt to manage the other person's moods, then doing that same action can affect a relationship in a negative way.

In my situation I chose to be the caregiver in the relationship. My H also was in a demanding job and my choice to be the support person was beneficial to all of us. One example is cooking dinner. I like to cook, and I do cook dinner most of the time. We also had what I thought was a good sex life in our marriage. But humans are not perfect machines. I would inadvertently trigger my H and he would rage or give me the ST. One thing that would do this would be the times when I didn't cook dinner, or asked for help in the kitchen ( we had small kids, maybe one was sick, and even thought it was my job, sometimes we could use a hand or ask him to get take out one night). I saw from my mother how not having someone willing to do any of these things was destructive. I was willing, I just could have used a hand with it sometimes. I didn't expect these requests to result in rages and then the black and white thinking " we never have sex, you never cook dinner"

I had no clue what was going on at the time, but these rages and statements triggered my own childhood trauma and so, I hid my feelings from my H and went on autopilot. He got what he argued for- a cook, a nanny, a maid and sex when he wanted. But who I was- the real me- that was gone from the marriage. I was a fake person trying to be who he wanted me to be. The drive for that was fear. I was doing all these things to get him to stop raging. That was co-dependency.

When the MC told me to stop cooking, it wasn't because it was wrong for me to cook. It was because I was afraid to not do it and she wanted to help me deal with the fears. When I cooked for him, I was actually managing my own fear by managing my H's feelings. On my part, I was feeling resentful when I cooked. You could say the same for sex. I was afraid to say no if I didn't want to, and also afraid to ask if I did ( he would reject me at times and I think it was punishment). Leaving sex completely on his terms was a way of managing my own fears.

To get to where being supportive was a choice and not a co-dependent mechanism - I had to face the fears. ( she also assessed that I was not in physical danger  if my H got angry ). For my H, he had to learn to self soothe when he was angry but that was not something I could control. I could learn to manage my own fears and that's what she focused on. To face my own fears, I had to stop the dysfunctional ways I was managing them.

Wendy,
It took me two days to digest your powerful testimony. Although you have shared bits and pieces here and there, this last post was an “aha” moment for me. I could resonate with so many things you have shared, draw parallels and use your intropritation to go and answer my own questions.
In the same order: caregiving was at one moment my choice, even as a young child, age of 17, I could see how broken, misunderstood and misfortune uBPDh was. He was tricked by business partner, let down by foo, mistreated by friends, I needed to be that “night in shining armour that was going to shield, protect and nurture him back to life. So I did, and he thrived. Then something strange started happening to him, he would be acting out, and trying or saying that we were different and need to divorce. We had a younge daughter and I was heartbroken. Every attempt I made at reconciling, he would only take it further. I started chasing an emotional toddler who was kicking and screaming emotionally whilst I held him tight until he came down. Then he would be super sweet, loving and appreciating, while I felt depleted and this nasty feeling like I have let myself down. That’s where the caregiving became caretaking. The rules became necessary to keep our marriage intact. For instance, people, who have not met his “BPD” persons think I’m some kind of villain in the relationships, usually new acquaintances, as sooner or later BPD always shows up in public. They think that the rule we have “we don’t go out without each other” is some form of imposing on his freedom. It very well is. One thing that is missing from this equation, is that when we were younger he would go out, turn off his phone, disappear, when he would eventually pick up and I was worried, he would mock my concern and have the same reply, that he was with the girls and his friends having fun. He would also spend the amounts of money we didn’t have, because he didn’t want to loose his face to his friends, often picking up the tab for everyone at the party. He would also injest drugs and be sick for several days there after. At that tender age of 17, 18,19 it rocked by world. I was angry and one time, when I caught him sniffing coke, with his friends, next to the car seat we have already installed to welcome our daughter (I was very pregnant) I just slammed the door of his car and started walking. I was done. When I look back to that moment, I am amazed, even now, as a grown woman at my determination. I wasn’t going to raise my child with a drug addict, penniless and jobless, I was walking away from the person I loved. He chased me down, begged me for forgiveness, we left the party, and he was clean, from what I know for 6 years! I became his sober coach. I stayed next to him when he encountered people he used to do his drugs with, I soothed him when he was feeling low, I became his mental health nurse. I no longer had an option, as I thought, as I have “volunteered” to take that job. Skillfully, he handed me this responsibility. “You want me to be ok, in a good mood, not to do drugs, you better take good care of me”.
Then regarding your “not cooking and handing him the wheel for sexual intimacy”.
Wendy, I’ve cooked for him, because it’s a “woman’s job”, according to him. Even employed full time, both of us, he still demanded I cooked and cleaned, with little contribution. Sexual intimacy became his prerogative. He was expecting me to “be active” put on a show, but when I did, or made the advances he would turn me down or ridicule me. It became a torture. “We never have sex” -> I make an advancement -> he turned me down -> I would be all kind of confused and perplexed.
Only recently did I realize what was happening
A) me making the advances and him turning me down was an ego boost, the self reassuring and confidence increasing move. See, she wants me, young girl, but I’m just going to keep her on a tight leash
B) he wasn’t looking for my “vanilla” advances, as he was never the vanilla guy. The types of perversions he has in mind I don’t even want to hint here. I pass no judgement at those people who like to spice thing up, it’s their prerogative. For me, it’s not “me”, it actually repulses me and questions my sanity. I rarely partake in his escapades. He uses the things I want to get the things he craves. It becomes an exchange. I want something, and he says, if you do xyz I will do what you want. When I was younger I didn’t fully realize why it was making me feel rotten. Now, as I’m a grown woman, I do. I feel like a prostitute. He pays me for the kind of sex he wants. If both parties win, and no one gets hurt, why is there a problem?. Only there is, because I sell out my value for something that disgusts me, to get something I/children/my parents want and need.
I woke up this morning in my s11’s bedroom, with a heavy heart. This isn’t normal, my life isn’t normal, what my children are exposed to isn’t normal. As a psych majour I know that abuse is multi generational and runs in cycles. Will some woman wake up alone, while my s is doing the same thing?. After all, this is all he saw, and been exposed to. I’m doing my best, I really am, I’m trying to get better for the children, I’m trying to seek the help from me. Today is just one of these days, when I feel like I have failed my kids, like I have failed me. If it was my daughter in these relationships, I would not stop begging her to save herself, why am I not saving myself?.

[Notwendy]

You have done the best you could with a difficult situation- don't be down on yourself, whatever you did, you learned from it. Move forward without judging yourself.

I don't tell people to choose a certain religion or even be religious, it's such a personal choice, but since you have one, you can draw on it to change your mindset. ( people who are atheists can do this too but not through religion )

You were made in the image of God- and as a unique being. Your H's feelings, moods, opinions don't change this. Take the judgement of whether or not you are enough out of your H's hands and between you and your Maker. You have the same value as any other human beings and nobody can change that. You are enough.

You have an ethical template. It's between you and God. Get centered with your own values and live accordingly.

Don't worry about fixing your H's thinking. He was created by the same Maker. You didn't make him this way and it's not your job to fix him.

The way to change the example for your children is to change yourself from fearful to appreciate your value. When your fears don't trigger you, your H's threats won't feel the same. You will be able to respond to them with a clear head. When you get a sponsor- they can help you with this.

You can do it, and it takes practice. You will be able to some days and backtrack on others. It isn't easy to change learned behaviors but you can do it. First, believe you have self worth- no matter what your H is feeling or saying.

[formflier]

  I’m doing my best

Yes!  And you are making changes in  a positive direction. 

I see you gaining momentum towards a healthier life.  Keep it up!   

Please do something extra kind for yourself today.   

FF

[snowglobe]

Yes!  And you are making changes in  a positive direction. 

I see you gaining momentum towards a healthier life.  Keep it up!   

Please do something extra kind for yourself today.   

FF

Thank you Ff, and Wendy,
Today was really tough for me. His silent treatments that alternate with banal disregard and rudeness take time to catch up. I try to separate what he says with what I behave/say/do. When my behaviour isn’t proportional to his response, I tell myself that it isn’t me. Today his behaviours caught up with me, I was triggered by I am not even sure what. Perhaps not sleeping in my own bed, which I willingly gave up, so I can get some uninterrupted sleep and so he didn’t go buying himself furniture. Yet, it’s all sinking in. Like the fact that he is actively taking steps to separate from me. Like that fact that my needs aren’t being met. Like the fact that I crave companionship and intimacy. It makes me angry and sad simultaneously. I went and got my hair did. I also went to see my d15 perform, she is a real hard worker and grace. It gave me a boost, it made me proud of her and my own perseverance to keep on pushing through. I came home to find him locked away in the bedroom. My dad shared that uBPDh hasn’t come down after I left. Tomorrow early morning he is leaving back to the place of work, he needs to do some maintenance. I offered to come and help. Which he turned down, so I won’t be persisting. I also realized, while driving home, although I miss him so terribly that it makes every atom in my body and soul hurt, I don’t want to do “this” anymore. I either want to be together when I’m seen and heard, where I have a semblance of respect and interest coming my way, or no way at all. G-d has heard my prayers and tears, and I’m finally home with my children. I have a chance to make it right by them. I count my graces. I lived another day, and hopefully another night. I know what I want and how I see these relationships moving forward. I don’t want to be yelled at, insulted or put down. Either he will raise to the occasion, or vacant the room for someone who will.

[Notwendy]

I also realized, while driving home, although I miss him so terribly that it makes every atom in my body and soul hurt, I don’t want to do “this” anymore. I either want to be together when I’m seen and heard, where I have a semblance of respect and interest coming my way, or no way at all. G-d has heard my prayers and tears, and I’m finally home with my children. I have a chance to make it right by them. I count my graces. I lived another day, and hopefully another night. I know what I want and how I see these relationships moving forward. I don’t want to be yelled at, insulted or put down. Either he will raise to the occasion, or vacant the room for someone who will.


This is a profound statement, and I think the next few days will be testing for both of you. He would be at his workplace without you to help manage him. You will be with your children- where you feel is best, but the distance from your H will tug at you. I know that each marriage is different, but marriages can survive a spouse in the armed forces, a business trip and other reasons to be apart for a while. My H has been on business trips many times while I stayed home with the kids. It's not an end to the marriage to do this. Larger issues stress marriages.

If you do spend time apart, you will feel some "withdrawal" from the highs and lows of the patterns between you. His behavior either frightens you or rewards you and this can mimic a drug with highs and lows for you. I hope you will go to a meeting Wednesday and get support from that group/sponsor. Also schedule some self care- like you did with the hair appointment. Do some nice things for yourself. Take a nice walk outside, go to a library or museum- a change in your routine where you were otherwise focused on him. There isn't a lot of spare time when you are with kids, but even maybe take them somewhere- out for ice cream or something. Schedule some fun for all of you.  Self care helps you manage.

[snowglobe]

I woke up early this morning with a mixture of heavy ness and empty ness. He has gone back to work. When things are good between us, he either wants me with him, or at least notifies me of his departure. Non of that happened this morning. He just quietly left. As Wendy predicted, I’m experiencing a powerful pull, comparable to a drug withdrawal, perhaps worse. He is constantly on my mind. What is he doing, how is he doing, has he eaten, who will he call when alone and lonely, will he stay for the night, or will he come back?. All those questions, like. Beehive swirl through my mind. I decided to get the financials in order to get myself occupied, while the kids are asleep. D15 is moving towards “autonomy” stage of Piaget, she is seeking companionship with male friends, I’m doing my best to keep balance between allowing her to mature and set the appropriate boundaries. I’m glad to be with them.
I so badly want for uBPDh to come back, not physically, but emotionally, for him to be my equal partner, who will have our children’s best interests at heart. I need to separate this magical thinking for a real, mentally challenged person. He is in a “rebellious teenager” stage, alternating moods, rejected, challenging and provoking. When he is around in this state, it’s hard to set the boundaries with the children, he overrides everything.
I had an urge to call my friend, who is also living with a BPD husband and go out, she understands me like nobody else. I also had an urge to have some wine to dull out the pain I’m currently in. Today, I recognize that this action would be substituting one addiction for another and is a slippery slope for me. I will remain with my children, parent them, entertain them, keep my eyes open and allow myself to feel the deep pain, when appropriate. I will not give in into a self distractive urge. I can do this, one minute at a time

[Notwendy]

Your feelings are normal considering your situation, and if you can identify what you are going through as a sort of withdrawal- from co-dependent habit- then you can not be so scared of them. They are only feelings and although uncomfortable- feelings will pass.

They are uncomfortable to you because you have used your caretaking of your H to manage them. All these thoughts- what will he eat, what is he doing, are habits you use to manage these feelings. The temptation to use something else, like a glass of wine, is a result of wanting to use something to help manage uncomfortable feelings. What you will learn is to use healthier ways to do this. Everyone gets scared, sad, lonely- but we don't have to be co-dependent to manage these feelings.

You are doing great! This is new to you and each moment you manage in a positive way is a victory. This is not about your marriage- this is about you helping to gain better skills at managing uncomfortable feelings. I recall doing something like this. My H was angry at me, we had a big argument. The kids were older and OK on their own. I went to a bookstore by myself for several hours. This was different from my usual routine of staying home, trying to smooth things over, or letting him yell or give me the ST. It was very hard. I bought a coffee and a book and just sat and read. I had all kinds of worry thoughts, but overall, it was a nice thing to do and it wasn't expensive or destructive. I think the reaction from my H was surprise that I did this. But it wasn't anything immoral that could break a marriage.

I know your wish is for your H to want to return and be the husband and father you want him to be. This part you can not control.  Your H has to make his own choice.

Think of constructive ways to manage fear and anxiety- you are doing some of that already- staying busy, and doing something fun- walking, go to a bookstore, a movie... whatever interests you. Not drinking. Calling a friend might be- if it is a supportive friend. Calling a sponsor is a good thing- now I think you can see how this would parallel someone in AA calling a sponsor when they want a drink even though your urge is for something else. I hope you will get one soon.

Your H is an adult, and is capable of finding something to eat, or calling, if he wants to. He can figure out how to manage. This is his task to do, and you don't have control over this. If he makes a mistake, doesn't eat, - that is his responsibility. Not yours to fix.

[snowglobe]

Thank you, Wendy, your reflection helps me to stay on the right path. A few specific questions;
I’ve been overwhelmed by my own pain so much so, that I think I have failed to leave the door open, so to say. How do I treat today? I normally call or text him, when he is away to see how he is doing. Should I try and approach him? Would not contacting him further send him down the rejection phase (everything is a test, as you know)
When he is back, eventually, do I keep it brief, friendly and concise? Do I even try to speak to him?

[Notwendy]

I'll share some of the work I did ( co-dependency work) and also to be mindful of reactivity. Reactivity is reacting to someone rather than to act from your best intentions- ie punishing someone back or overly pursuing them.

The big question is- does this action come from a place of centered /true intention or a way to change/influence the other person? The same action- texting him or calling him- could be either.

A counselor also cautioned about going to extremes depending on the other person's behavior. Texting every 5 minutes is one extreme. Not at all could be the other.

Dig deep about the motive. Are you able to text him without this being like a drug hit to you- making you feel the withdrawal, freaking out if he doesn't text back or wonder what he's going to do. Or could you text him without concern about the possible effect it has on him? I know you are not there yet, you are very focused on him.

Early on with my sponsor a lot of work was to take my focus off my H and on to me, not in a selfish way but to get to know who I was, what was truly me, and what was reacting to him.

I'll use my BPD mother as an example, as I learned a lot from dealing with her and I had to get grounded in my own values when dealing with her. It's not the same as a romantic relationship but there is emotion involved. I do call her, because it is my own value to not ignore an elderly mother, even if she isn't always nice to me. I send her flowers for her birthday and holidays. Maybe she likes them, maybe she doesn't, but I do it because I feel it is the right thing to do. I have zero expectations of how she will respond because- that part is not my side of the fence. Marriage is more complicated as I am closer to my H but I take the same mindset into my decisions- is this from a place of who I am, or am I trying to influence ( control ) his behavior.

I normally call or text him, when he is away to see how he is doing Normal is OK, it isn't extreme in either direction. Now there is you- can you manage this emotionally. If you can act as you normally do, but without being reactive or getting into text arguments then, send a short text ( I think things are too heated to call). "Hi, how are you doing"? He may or may not respond, but that isn't your decision. If you can know that you did the right thing for you- no matter what he does, then you are acting on your values. However - there is a clause to this and it is self care. When we are emotionally raw, we are not in a place to communicate well and need to take a time out. You may need to not communicate with him to give yourself the emotional space to manage your feelings. If you need this space and take it for you- it is self care- and also according to your values.

There is no one way to answer- text or not. Dig deep for your answer. Is this from a place of authentic you, or "picking up the codependency drug?"

[snowglobe]

I'll share some of the work I did ( co-dependency work) and also to be mindful of reactivity. Reactivity is reacting to someone rather than to act from your best intentions- ie punishing someone back or overly pursuing them.

The big question is- does this action come from a place of centered /true intention or a way to change/influence the other person? The same action- texting him or calling him- could be either.

A counselor also cautioned about going to extremes depending on the other person's behavior. Texting every 5 minutes is one extreme. Not at all could be the other.

Dig deep about the motive. Are you able to text him without this being like a drug hit to you- making you feel the withdrawal, freaking out if he doesn't text back or wonder what he's going to do. Or could you text him without concern about the possible effect it has on him? I know you are not there yet, you are very focused on him.

Early on with my sponsor a lot of work was to take my focus off my H and on to me, not in a selfish way but to get to know who I was, what was truly me, and what was reacting to him.

I'll use my BPD mother as an example, as I learned a lot from dealing with her and I had to get grounded in my own values when dealing with her. It's not the same as a romantic relationship but there is emotion involved. I do call her, because it is my own value to not ignore an elderly mother, even if she isn't always nice to me. I send her flowers for her birthday and holidays. Maybe she likes them, maybe she doesn't, but I do it because I feel it is the right thing to do. I have zero expectations of how she will respond because- that part is not my side of the fence. Marriage is more complicated as I am closer to my H but I take the same mindset into my decisions- is this from a place of who I am, or am I trying to influence ( control ) his behavior.

I normally call or text him, when he is away to see how he is doing Normal is OK, it isn't extreme in either direction. Now there is you- can you manage this emotionally. If you can act as you normally do, but without being reactive or getting into text arguments then, send a short text ( I think things are too heated to call). "Hi, how are you doing"? He may or may not respond, but that isn't your decision. If you can know that you did the right thing for you- no matter what he does, then you are acting on your values. However - there is a clause to this and it is self care. When we are emotionally raw, we are not in a place to communicate well and need to take a time out. You may need to not communicate with him to give yourself the emotional space to manage your feelings. If you need this space and take it for you- it is self care- and also according to your values.

There is no one way to answer- text or not. Dig deep for your answer. Is this from a place of authentic you, or "picking up the codependency drug?"

Wendy, this is definitely “the drug hit” situation. I’ve been wrestling with it all morning, alternating between texting him to see how he was doing, or calling and yelling at him that I wasn’t doing this any longer and what a piece of s$8t he is for doing this to our family. The later isn’t productive at all, in fact it’s very similar to self mutilation, as he will ignore me or proportionally lash out. Either way it won’t repair our marriage. I can’t make him love me, want to be with me, yet I try so darn hard. I’m sad to admit that after a while of his “withdrawals” I get so angry and disregilated, that once he wants to come back to normal, I tell him to “f&@k off”, and reject him. I try to focus on my children. This morning I was a terrible mother, berating and raising my voice at my teenager for forgetting one of my clothing items after her performance. I’ve sent her on the guilt trip, threatened to ground her. I feel like a monster. My inner turmoil is spilling over to them. They don’t deserve this. It’s all my baggage, if anything I’m just like my uBPDh. Hurting people who love, depend on me and are innocent and defenceless against my wrath. I need to calm myself down ASAP, I need to be the person they deserve. I am trying the deep breathing and just sitting on a bench watching people walk by. I am amazed how you Wendy, came through on the other side of this codependency addiction. I did not fully realize the full extent of this disfunction on me.

[Notwendy]

It's with baby steps. You're taking them. I also had a lot of help from a sponsor and credit her with getting me through some tough personal places.

Don't be too hard on yourself- so you yelled at your kids- you can make amends to them. An honest apology goes a long way. Be kind to yourself.

Wouldn't it be great if when your H returned, you didn't explode. This doesn't mean putting on a fake happy face. A T told me to "stay calm in the storm". First, learn to calm your own emotional storm with ( healthy) self soothing skills.

Imagine the dynamics as drama bait. You want to curse at him, but this fuels the drama- for him and for you. Don't take the bait. Say, I need to take a moment and calm down. Then excuse yourself ( go into the bathroom if you have to).

Imagine yourself staying calm while your H - or anyone else, is struggling emotionally. You can feel empathetic, but you don't have to also feel or fix their feelings. It takes some work but you can get there, and don't worry about achieving "perfect"- like never being triggered, but being able to recognize it better when you are and practicing self soothing and self care.  Sitting on a bench watching people is fine- a great choice.

[Notwendy]

double posted ...

[Notwendy]

Another helpful technique is to take the word "you" out of your conversations with your H ( as much as possible while still making sense). This keeps you focused on your side of the fence with him and focused on your feelings.

You are in major HALT ( can include several emotions) right now. Not able to process fully due to being emotionally flooded. That is OK. Where you are is where you are. HALT works because it means HALT do not proceed.

Do not make major decisions when you are in HALT. This means schedule non essential travel, divorce, moving, selling the house, anything that requires clear thinking.

Don't make your H the reason for not deciding. This is about you being too emotionally flooded to make a decision.

He brings up travel. Rather than " I am not going anywhere with you" try " Honey, I just got back from a long trip and I am not up to another one".

Plane tickets are cheap. " I am not up to travelling right now". This carries no blame, no drama, it's a fact- you are too overwhelmed to plan a trip right now.

This response can help with all kinds of things. If he brings up something emotional or dramatic "honey, I am not up to this kind of discussion right now ,I need some time to process".

If he presses you for a decision. " I need to think about this".

If the threatens divorce " Honey that would make me sad, and I am not able to discuss this right now". Then don't discuss it.

If he pushes for sex- yes if you are up to it, if not  " honey I need some time to myself right now".

There is no "you" in any of these sentences. Taking out "you" doesn't fuel the drama as much.