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Author Topic: New. Attempting to stop the verbal cycle of violence  (Read 454 times)
inhismercy

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« on: January 16, 2019, 07:08:24 PM »

Not sure where to begin.  I was sharing with my counselor some of the details of a recent argument and he said my spouse may have BPD.  I had never heard of BPD or considered a disorder as a possibility.  Now I am attempting to stop the verbal cycle of violence and life is tough.  My spouse appears normal to everyone and is outgoing and vibrant.  Only when we begin to discuss issues do things fall apart and my spouse begins to blame, slander, yell and refuse to listen or honor separate space.   I've attempted to talk about our issue but my spouse refuses to listen.   Help, any advice?
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2019, 08:51:10 PM »

Hi inhismercy,

Its really when you don’t know with what you’re dealing with, these things take time, the good news is that you now know that it’s possible that your spouse may have BPD traits if she’s very rigid.

Can you give us an issue for an example?

What are the problems?
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inhismercy

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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2019, 09:17:39 PM »

It's a bit long but I will try and condense.  After a semi-fun night we go to bed around 1am.  I can't sleep so I head downstairs to read "Walking on Eggshells".  At 2am my wife shows up and makes a snarky remark.  I keep reading and don't respond and eventually she sits across the room from where I am sitting.  She then asks sarcastically if the book I'm reading will help our marriage and asks for a quote.  I respond and continue to read.  My daughter then comes in the room (we are a late-night family) and asks when we plan to leave in the morning to go to Lowes and get the material to build her bookshelf.  I say 10 am and she says great and her bother wants to join us.  I said great and then my wife says why wasn't I invited.  My daughter quickly says oh we'd love to have you join us but before she can finish my wife is saying no, no you don't want me there anyways.  Seeing imminent danger from a conflict I close my book and say goodnight.  As I am getting ready for bed my wife comes in the room and tells me how mean and worthless I am and I will have to sleep in the guest room.  I say ok and go to the guest room and lock the door and push a spare bed in front of the door as a barricade because I know she may break in and have a rage.  I pray for my wife and family, recognize she may have a disorder and it's not my fault and go to sleep.  At 5:46am I am sound asleep but I hear the door get unlocked and the bed being pushed out of the way.   My wife is in the room and hurling insults and criticisms at me.  I ask her to stop and I request she leave the room so I can go back to sleep.  She refuses to leave and is blocking my exit.  Finally I say I have to go to the bathroom and she says pee on the floor for all I care but you are not leaving.  I wait a few more minutes and finally see a small space and escape to the bathroom.  She follows me and continues to berate me.  I go to different rooms all over the house and she continues to follow and speak toxic words.  Finally, I lock my self in the bedroom and push the dresser against the door.  She again unlocks the door and begins to push to the point of something breaking.  I say hold on I'll move the dresser and she waits and enters the room and continues with the words.  I realize there is nothing I can do to calm the situation and leave.  Later that day when I was going to Lowe's with the kids they mentioned that my wife had yelled at them till 5am before coming in my room. 
This is one of many stories with very similar actions.
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 11:38:54 PM »

Welcome

Let me join Mutt in welcoming you.  Everyone has a need for connection.  Your wife is signalling you, in a dysfunctional way, that her connection needs are not being met.  The more you withdraw, the more she pursues, in a desperate attempt to connect with you.  Yes, it would be much nicer if she could just approach you with kindness and express her needs, but that's not going to happen.  You're going to have to be the one to break the cycle.

Almost unanimously, members here find that the topic of BPD just makes their partners feel threatened and act defensively.  We know it's a good thing you were reading the book, but to your wife, the title may as well be, "My wife is broken."  Be subtle.  Don't let her see you reading it. 

Read through your most recent post, and look for each time that you distanced yourself from her.  Each time was an opportunity to turn things around.  I've been where you are, and totally understand the urge to withdraw for protection from toxic behavior.  Sometimes it works temporarily, sometimes not even.  To make things better, you'll need to shift strategy.  When would you say is the first time that you distanced yourself from her during the events you describe in your post?

RC
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inhismercy

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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 02:13:12 PM »

Welcome

Let me join Mutt in welcoming you.  Everyone has a need for connection.  Your wife is signalling you, in a dysfunctional way, that her connection needs are not being met.  The more you withdraw, the more she pursues, in a desperate attempt to connect with you.  Yes, it would be much nicer if she could just approach you with kindness and express her needs, but that's not going to happen.  You're going to have to be the one to break the cycle.

Almost unanimously, members here find that the topic of BPD just makes their partners feel threatened and act defensively.  We know it's a good thing you were reading the book, but to your wife, the title may as well be, "My wife is broken."  Be subtle.  Don't let her see you reading it. 

Read through your most recent post, and look for each time that you distanced yourself from her.  Each time was an opportunity to turn things around.  I've been where you are, and totally understand the urge to withdraw for protection from toxic behavior.  Sometimes it works temporarily, sometimes not even.  To make things better, you'll need to shift strategy.  When would you say is the first time that you distanced yourself from her during the events you describe in your post?

RC
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inhismercy

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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 02:19:17 PM »

First time is difficult to say.  In the past I have attempted to reason and use logic.  I've tried being extremely calm during a rage.  I've tried to match her rage only to realize that was not going to work.  Until recently when I discovered that my wife may have BPD I would eventually lose it when she hit a sensitive area and then have to apologize.   We were definitely caught in the "Cycle of Verbal Violence".  (Everything is great, an eggshell is broken and things become tense, then an all out rage and finally back to the honeymoon.  Since discovering the possibility of BPD I remain calm listen for a while and then attempt to remove myself from the toxic words.  I definitely need a new paradigm and shift in strategy.
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 08:04:31 PM »

for starters, there isnt really a "right way" to respond to a rage, if "right way" means putting an end to it.

right way is really about what works best for you, in the context of your relationship. it may mean multiple approaches. its also about not escalating or making things worse. a rage or a dysregulation ends when the person gets back to baseline.

Radcliff gives excellent insight here about whats going on between you and your wife when this happens. barricading doors is putting up significant walls, and it sounds as if she escalates when you do it.

lets start here:

Excerpt
I say 10 am and she says great and her bother wants to join us.  I said great and then my wife says why wasn't I invited.  My daughter quickly says oh we'd love to have you join us but before she can finish my wife is saying no, no you don't want me there anyways.  Seeing imminent danger from a conflict I close my book and say goodnight.  

everyone hates feeling left out. me, im pretty highly sensitive to it myself. with BPD traits, youre going to often have very, very sensitive feelings around it, and a big reaction. there are lots of different approaches one can take. one might be to let it go... .she says "no", take it at face value, move on. one might be to bend over backwards a bit (to a reasonable extent), reassure her you want her to come. one might be to invite her in the first place. one might be to listen and let her vent her feelings, then talk. there are a whole host of possibilities, that again, may work better depending on your relationship dynamics and your wife. but closing the book and walking out, in this case, seems to escalate things. she was hurt about this, and walking out just felt like being further shut out.

none of that is to say there isnt a healthy time and place for a time out when things have broken down beyond repair, or when you need to cool off or need space. its really a matter of knowing how and when to go about it. right now it sounds like a go to, and your wife knows it, and she pushes the matter, chases you around, so its probably going to take a combination of approaches, with an emphasis on those, and leaving time outs as a last resort.
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2019, 10:24:26 PM »

Wow those are some convicting words.   I guess I have reached my boundary and realize there is no logic or convincing or reassuring words that will calm the anger.   I have chosen not to fight anymore and not to be shamed, ridiculed or to allow rude interruptions.  With those boundaries it is difficult to discuss any issue and especially one she has become emotional about.  I do love her and do want to learn but not at the expense of my own self esteem and respect.  Now we can't even discuss our relationship crisis because she gets upset and angry if I mention my boundaries or attempt to discuss the situation.  So for the time being we are living together somewhat cordially but there is constant tension in the air.  She has agreed to see a marriage counselor with me and to discuss our issues in front of the counselor and I am currently researching to find a Christian marriage counselor that specializes in BPD.  So I may be at an impasse for the time being and it really sucks.  I miss the good times and laughter but I realize the rages were killing me and that had to stop.  From here I wait on the Lord and a good counselor.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 10:54:33 PM »

Being shamed, ridiculed, and rudely interrupted is pretty miserable.  Most of us have endured a lot of it, and everyone wants to protect themselves from it.  We can help you do that, but you're also going to need to be flexible and try to close more of the gap between you and your wife.  She does not have the skills to meet you halfway.  To start, take a look at this page on setting boundaries, and notice that boundaries are not about controlling the behavior of the other person.  If we set out on a path to try to get them to behave a certain way, they will resent it and rebel.  If you take a Christian approach, you may also be interested in Cloud and Townsend's book, Boundaries, which is excellent.

The first opportunity I saw for you to turn things around was when she walked down the stairs.  A smooth move might have been to calmly put the book face down, give her your full attention, and say, "I'm sorry, hon, did I wake you up?" or otherwise engage her in any sort of neutral way.  This was the first time in the scenario when you pulled away from her.

We can work with you on boundaries to help cut down on your exposure to nasty talk, but you're not going to be able to eliminate it, and you're going to have to figure out a way to start meeting some of her connection needs without waiting for her to behave nicely first.  Does that make sense?  If it does, we can work with you to figure out ways to get started.

RC
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inhismercy

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2019, 04:13:43 AM »

I am a bit confused about my thought of my wife having BPD and abandonment issues.  Just today as we were studying High Conflict Couples together we were discussing one of the issues we had recently.  During the discussion we reached an impasse on opinions of how we viewed the recent conflict.  Her next statement was that she did not know if she could stay together if I could not agree with her point of view and apologize for the infraction she perceived I had committed.  I reaffirmed that we can see things differently and it is acceptable to disagree after we have been heard.  Her emotional arousal was quickly increasing and I asked if we could change the subject and return to reading the book.  She continued talking and when finished I started to read. 
My question is…  If she is afraid of abandonment why, during a peaceful disagreement, would should threaten to end the relationship if I didn’t see things her way or apologize. 
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2019, 09:01:03 AM »

My question is…  If she is afraid of abandonment why, during a peaceful disagreement, would should threaten to end the relationship if I didn’t see things her way or apologize.  

The simple answer (which my therapist talked about a couple of days ago) is that one way people with a fear of abandonment act out is the "I'll push you away before you can leave me" approach. For them, it eliminates the element of surprise and puts them in control.

The psychology is probably a bit more complicated than that... .
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2019, 04:11:23 PM »

Ozzie, that is a good summary of my understanding of how abandonment fears can play out in relationships.  It can be very confusing but when you think about it it makes sense.
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2019, 02:16:53 PM »

Not sure where to begin.  I was sharing with my counselor some of the details of a recent argument and he said my spouse may have BPD.  I had never heard of BPD or considered a disorder as a possibility.  Now I am attempting to stop the verbal cycle of violence and life is tough.  My spouse I've attempted to talk about our issue but my spouse refuses to listen.  

During a quiet time, set a consequence of verbal abuse.

 “If or when you (describe behavior) I feel X. It is frightening to me. Etc. when this happens, I will ask you to stop, reminding you of this discussion. If you continue, I will leave the room. If you follow me and continue, I will leave the house until I can feel calm and safe. Then I will text or call to see if you are calmer.

I will be doing this each and every time things get out of hand. I know it won’t be easy at first, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you test me several times to see if I follow through.

I have made a firm commitment to myself to back up my words with action, whether or not it’s convenient. I cannot live any other way. I hope once we settle this issue, we can become closer”
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inhismercy

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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2019, 08:32:18 AM »

Ozzie - thank you for the reply it was very helpful.  Many of the books I read stated similar information but yours was very clear and concise.
 
Harri - Thanks for the confirmation.  Doesn't make total sense but it probably shouldn't.

Randi - So I attempted to have a sit down one morning and say almost exactly what you wrote here.  I believe I read it in one of your books.  After maybe the first or second sentence my wife interrupted and said I can't listen to any of this and walked away.  We are currently in a truce waiting to talk about issues in front of a marriage counselor.  However, his schedule is busy and we won't see him till Feb 11th.  In the meantime my spouse is attempting to not rage which is nice but there is a tremendous amount of tension and daily, even when things are going great, she will bring up an issue and place blame.  We are studying high conflict couples together so she says this is my primary emotion but it quickly turns to why did you do that or say this.  I calmly try and state the difference between a primary and secondary emotion at which she interrupts and say why are you speaking so mean, we can't discuss this unless you speak nicer.  I smile and adjust my tone and she says either this isn't funny or don't be condescending.  Any ways I do not have an opportunity to finish my thought or statement.  Near the end I say let's call it a night and she says no we can work it out.  I say ok but I would like to finish my statement.  She says go ahead and just a few statements in she says I can't listen to this anymore I'm going to bed.  I say ok.  Eventually she returns and says "I love you and I tried to work things out only if you would have tried.  Notice I am saying kind things."  And walks away. 
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2019, 08:50:30 AM »

One of my biggest issues is being interrupted and then giving my wife the time to say all she wants.  Finally when I attempt to interject I am either interrupted again or she says I'm not listening and walks away.
Read this recently on the web: (From: The Cut, New York)
"That’s because, whether the interrupter realizes it or not, cutting in while someone else is speaking can be a way of asserting dominance over them. “Interrupting is a way to demonstrate power in interpersonal situations,”  But the “good” interruptions still have the same effect as the more malevolent ones: Either way, you’re diminishing the other person’s role in it so you may assert your own. “Not allowing someone to complete a statement conveys messages like, ‘I want you to stop talking’ or ‘What I have to say in this moment is more important than what you’re saying,’” Minden says. And while your best friend’s overlap might not be a big deal, “frequent and aggressive interrupting, without showing respect for others’ views, is likely to be destructive.”  When a person continues to speak after being interrupted, or responds to remarks made during the interruption, it is in effect a reward for the behavior. Interrupting comes from anxiety of not being heard, anxiety of wanting to contribute, or a subtle attempt at control.  When an unwarranted interruption happens, pointedly stop speaking, remember what you were about to say, and when the interruptor finally stops speaking, start right back up where you had been interrupted at — do not say ‘as I was saying', or anything like that, just start right back as if a pause button had been pressed and then released. DO NOT acknowledge anything the person said while interrupting — this will help to show that interrupting has gained no benefit, and they have basically wasted their breath and time.)
I feel this is good advise but difficult to implement with my possible BPD.  When I have attempted it it normally ends in her walking away and then I listened to all the garbage with no ability to reply.

Any advice?
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2019, 09:54:46 AM »

Hi wanted to make a suggestion about the interrupting. We had a talking stick. Well it was a talking post it note but you get the idea. Whoever had it had the floor and could talk as long as they wanted without interruption but once they turned it over they couldn't speak. We also had a little timer we used sometimes to give even turns. We each got 2 minutes then it was the next persons. Back and forth etc. Mind you the partner with BPD has to want to collaborate in these activities. Might be a suggestion to bring up in counselling. Meanwhile you could take notes. I found that if I pulled out a note book and started taking notes about what my person with BPD was saying it made him really uncomfortable as he felt threatened that I could point out discrepancies later in what he had told me. So that tended to wind down his rants and provide me a turn to speak pretty quickly. I always offered him a chance to get a note book and take notes on my comments as well. I simply told him I was serious about hearing and understanding him and wanted to be able to review what he said later and not forget anything and since he kept telling me I had such a bad memory I needed the notes to keep everything straight. I made it about doing right by him not about helping me so he couldn't really argue and then he knew he wouldn't be able to wiggle out of things he had said. You should have seen his face when I would pull out the note book. It slowed down his tirades considerably. Otherwise I would respond with really? wow! you don't say. You think so? oh. and so forth and then close with well thats given me a lot to consider. I'll think about it for a few days and get back to you.  Then I would walk away or change the subject.  I know all this seems impossible. I really hope you find an excellent therapist. In the meanwhile know that you are not alone. We do understand. Please keep posting and reading.
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2019, 05:36:47 AM »

Hi Inhismercy and welcome.

i can really relate to some of what you say as it reminds me of my early months with my pwBPD.  im at a stage now that after a couple of break ups and getting together and awful awful verbal abuse cycles, we have come to a very peaceful and loving place.  if i could give you any advice i have found useful for my point of view in growing and learning the tools of how to deal with it all, and to begin the journey of understanding my pw BPD's world... .in realtion to mine and how we both react and respond... .the biggest thing for me is always bring it back to love.  i love my pwBPD immensely, and i want us to work out.  for me, thats all i focus on now and somehow that makes the issue to hand a whole lot less painful to deal with.  my pride, my ego, my need to feel right and justified and heard with my issues and feelings have all become second place to the love.  and in that, i dont mean that i have placed my feelings or myself second, i make my feelings be known, and have good self respect and self esteem and make it clear there are areas in our relationship that we have to work on consciously and willingingly.  it seems to be working beautifully.  i mean that i have put love first... .

for me - radical acceptance of where my pwBPD is on a ever moving daily basis sometimes from hour to hour, against where i react and respond whilst still retaining 'me' is a practice, and it becomes easier and easier and easier to the point of now, its second nature, and i can easily tell when my partner is in her emotional world and i can dance in harmony accordingly.  i have learned that many of our earlier clashes where from stories and beliefs i had that didnt align with the stories and beliefs she had in her mind and and at the end of the day, i accepted that if i wanted to share my life with her, there are things that needed to be peacefully resolved even in the places we were misaligned... .as Dolly Parton says, dont sweat the small stuff... .and i dont.  many many things i used to think were important, have come to not even be raised in my mind now and i have for myself, found so much peace in letting them go and found so much peace in my deepening relationship with my partner.

i used to react without thinking about where she was in her world, and trying to understand the emotion behind it... .it is usually some type of fear, abandonment or feeling trapped within my pwBPDs world - they both run strongly in her. and i can concur with what has been said with the abandonment - it used to confuse me when my partner's biggest fear was me leaving but then she would so quickly end things with me, confused me beyond logic... .now i understand. 

Excerpt
Near the end I say let's call it a night and she says no we can work it out.  I say ok but I would like to finish my statement.  She says go ahead and just a few statements in she says I can't listen to this anymore I'm going to bed.  I say ok.  Eventually she returns and says "I love you and I tried to work things out only if you would have tried.  Notice I am saying kind things."  And walks away.

when this happened,  i can see she was reaching out, with her saying 'no we can work it out' - she wants to, she just doenst know how and needs you to lead here, but lead in  an open and caring and inclusive way.  at this point i would have asked her how she would want to work things out, how she feels about working through right now... .even though she needs your help here, its important to make her feel in control of her emotions and to know that she has a voice and a choice and more importantly, you really care about working things out.  was it really important for you to finish your statement here or would it have been more reassuring to connect with your wife?  not being pokey on purpose - just a thought about being aware and becoming more in tune with your wifes feelings and how both of your behaviours impact the other which can either lead to peaceful resolution or every increasing cycles of abuse and despair.  it was clear she wanted to work it out with you and you adamant about finishing your statement and her then leaving the room, she maybe just didnt feel heard or validated , and then left, not knowing any other way to reach you.  for me, its interesting that she returns and starts with the 'i love you... .'.  very clear and very willing to connect and she is showing you her heart here and her vulnerability.  she sees you as not trying, i would advise that you find a way to reassure her that you are trying and want to work this out, im not saying you arent now but i can sense from your wifes behaviour and talk that she isnt so sure you are trying, i feel shes expecting you to leave and i get a real sense of her feeling shut out and excluded and not understanding your aloofness... .at this point i would have cut through the tension and approached her and said ' i love you too, and i want to work this out.  what can we do right now to take a good step towards that ... .its important to me, to us'

for me, it took me a long time to get out of myself, and my feeling and my wounds and stop reacting from there... .to remain calm (even when really pushed) and remember that i want a life with her ( a peaceful loving life) and to always try and understand where her emotion is really coming from ... .for example, if she is upset, is it sadness or anger or fear that is fuelling it... .if she is aloof, maybe she is feeling disconnected from her self or you - why?, what is the real emotion behind.,  i have learned from this that the 'facade' emotion is usually not the real emotion underneath - get to the real emotion, validate it (even if you dont understand it... .you dont have to, its her feeling, her emotion) and work lovingly from that place.  many many many of my pwBPD rages and tears and sadness stem from fear of abandonment and not feeling good enough... .when i remember that i return to love and all the charge around the 'issue' quickly dissipates and we return to calm and just a loving container of a relationship.

hope you find some peace my friend 
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2019, 02:51:19 PM »

My question is…  If she is afraid of abandonment why, during a peaceful disagreement, would should threaten to end the relationship if I didn’t see things her way or apologize. 

think of it like the fear of flying.

a lot of people that have a fear of flying will still fly. they may be terrified to do it. they may take a pill in order to it. or some will situate their entire lives in order to avoid flying.

a heightened fear of abandonment for someone with BPD traits is more like a way of life, and living life around that fear, than a particular incident.
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2019, 03:49:12 PM »

I have an unusual suggestion for you.

I think you are doing too much talking. As someone said, your wife sees you distancing, and when you are not distancing, you are talking logically, Which is not intimate kind of talk.

It’s hard to imagine anybody else going about it in entirely the wrong way, but one thing she could be looking for is intimacy from you that she is simply not getting. She has no clue how to do so.

What I suggest that you do is work with your church to do this exercise, which is something that I did with my church. We had a silent retreat.It was at a place that was in the country with lots of trails.

The rule was that you simply could not talk. You could be with the person. You could gesture. You could use facial expressions and things like that. But you could not talk.

The idea was to just share an experience with somebody and appreciate the stillness and the beauty around you.

The two of you are much too reactive around each other. You are justifiably hurt and she’s trying to hard to get what she wants and acting in abusive ways. To get what she wants, and she’s going to have to stop trying so hard. That’s the only way you can stop backing away.

In a couple, when one person pursues and the other one distances, the way to stop that is for the pursuer to stop pursuing so much. She needs to let you come to her. To do that, she needs to stop talking and understand that in the long run it will be worth it. I mean, just try a weekend. Have a just be the two of you. See what happens.
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 03:56:02 PM »

I forgot the other thing I was going to say. Use behavioral reinforcement. I have a chapter on this in the essential family guide to borderline personality disorder.

It’s the same principle that you use with children and pets. You reward positive behavior. You ignore negative behavior. When somebody’s behavior is almost all negative, you start rewarding behavior that is not negative.

So let’s say that you walk by her and she lets you pass without saying anything negative or doing anything negative. You might touch her or say something nice or kiss her on the cheek.

 As time goes on, she needs to act more positive to get the same reward. She might need to smile to get the same touch.

You DO NOT use negative reinforcement.

This kind of thing really works. There was a class on this and the whole class decided to experiment by only paying attention to the professor when he was on the right side of the room. By the end of the class he was squeezed all the way in the corner on the right side.
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 06:37:48 PM »

hope2727 - tried the talking stick/sticky note and timer.  All to no avail.  She would attempt to follow the rules for a few minutes and then either dominate the convo. or rage.  I've also tried taking notes and even taping the convo.  Occasionally it starts off well but quickly deteriorates.  But I do like how you focused on helping pwBPD when taking notes. 
esmerelda72 - I appreciate the info. but at this time, as I rediscover who I am, I need something a bit more healthy for both of us to grow.
Randi - The first suggestion... .HMM.  I really like behavioral reinforcement.  Thanks
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 09:55:54 PM »

How have things been going the last few days?

RC
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inhismercy

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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2019, 08:44:15 PM »

The newest development is after studying the books and watching Sam Vaknin, Richard Grannon and Gary Klien I have determined my wife is in the Cluster B spectrum very high functioning with tendencies towards Histrionic Personality Disorder.  This is not a diagnosis since I am not a psychiatrist but a best guess.
Well we have started to see a marriage counselor.  My concern is the counselor will lead us down the typical road of behavior modification without recognizing any issues with me or my wife.  I would be glad to have the counselor suggest that one of us has a personality disorder and begin to work on it.  However, it seems like we are going down the same path as before and now it is John Gottman's method of communication.  My spouse seems all in but I feel in my gut it is a ruse to get things back to the status quo.  Everything seems good right now and the rages have ceased.  So now I am trying to learn to live healthy and still be married with some level of trust.  Not really sure how to test the situation but I am continuing to see my own counselor and asking for guidance.
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once removed
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2019, 03:54:10 PM »

Gottman is great stuff. how are the two of you approaching it?
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
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« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2019, 07:54:05 AM »

I echo once removed's comment about the communication tools being great stuff: Once my wife accepted the communication strategy/methods (hint: it took a few cracks at couples sessions before she bought into it) the LEVEL of tension/conflict in our verbal disagreements decreased noticeably.  I had read self help books, took conflict resolution and leadership courses to develop interpersonal skills (through work), so I had SOME of the tools already.  But I learned from it too, and it wasn't until we BOTH started doing it that things improved. 

My brother's situation is almost identical to yours (interesting how we have both become caretakers in our relationships: she may be BPD too, for all I know) except it sometimes escalated to physical contact from her.  She would follow him around the house, or to the garage to continue the conflict when he tried to disengage.  He tried Randi's suggested method of laying out the consequences ahead of time, then following through (leaving the home for a while, then returning when things have calmed down) and at first it was difficult as she would immediately try to jump back into the conflict, but he stuck to his guns, did a 180 turn and promptly left again.  He did this a few times before she realized if she wanted any sort of discussion that she had to practice some self restraint.  They were actively talking divorce as she refused to follow through with previous promises to seek help, but she finally started doing therapy / anger management for her rages.  Anyway that's a bit of a sidebar, but I thought sharing his experience might help... .

It also sounds like you are working on the JADE end of things, but as others have suggested, perhaps there is more that can be done to SET?  It is tricky to keep your boundaries: the time to voice your limits and set the consequences is before it escalates to her hurling insults and breaking down the door to yell at you.  But maybe when things are calm, in addition to laying out the path you will take if she escalates to yelling again and how that behavior makes you feel, you can ask her whats bothering her and try to validate her feelings.  (Sometimes they don't know and it just leads to an unfocused dump of all their garbage on you at once: that's where the communication tools we learned improved things considerably on her end too). 

I can comment that my wife has said numerous times that she has sometimes persisted in cyclical conversations, amped up her attack, based on her perception that "she wasn't being heard".  I was in fact listening, but I did not validate her adequately at the time.  When I was able to alter my behavior to validate more, it helped a lot and she noticed and thanked me for hearing her concerns.

It sounds like you are trying hard to find the right recipe for her.  It is a bit of trial and error, and there are no guarantees and depending on her mood, nothing may really work, short of removing yourself from the situation temporarily.  Try to validate and see how that goes.  But don't be afraid to follow through with removing yourself for a while if it is warranted.

How old are the children?  After reading the part where she confronted them until 5 am before turning to you in the guest room, it sounds like they're bearing the brunt of some of her rages too.  Is it an option to bring them with you for a time out, if she is raging?  The safety / wellbeing of everyone is important
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2019, 01:45:55 AM »

Sorry for the late reply.  Thank you for the story of your brother and wife it was very relatable.  Things have taken a major change for the better.  The rages have ceased since setting the boundaries.  Instead of raging my wife will now demand communication even when it is a touchy subject matter.  On Valentines we were on a date and a subject was touched about in laws.  It was causing some tension so I suggested we discuss it later and enjoy the meal and other conversation.  She agreed but continued to turn the conversation back to the sensitive subject.  Finally I said "you seem upset so I will leave you my credit card and wait in the car for you" which she immediately replied "no, I'm waiting in the car" so I handed her the keys.  She then went to the car and I paid and when I was leaving the restaurant she was walking in and said I really need you to answer me about the in laws.  I said we had agreed to discuss it at a later time and I would not discuss the matter.  She said "you have to give me an answer it's the right thing to do and you are being selfish.  I handed her the keys and said goodnight I and I would Uber home and walked away.  She drove up next to me and apologized and said "I won't discuss the situation any more please forgive me and get in the car so we can finish the date.  I said I do love you and forgive you but my decision is final and I'll see you later.  I walked into the mall and shopped and bought some jeans and then went to the movies by myself.  I Ubered home later and she was watching TV with our teenager.  We greeted each other warmly and said nothing of the incident that evening.  So she changed her raging into persistent issue discussion but has now ceased that because she know's I will not be lured in. 
My final issue:  How can I ever trust she is being upfront and honest and not just acting to get her needs met?  It's difficult for me to describe, but at times I feel like she is smiling and saying all the right things on the outside but so angry about everything down deep.  The other day we were having a good weekend and nice morning when we ran into our pastor at church.  He is a close friend so we have shared about the crisis going on in our marriage.  We were holding hands and when he saw us he said I'm so glad to see you two holding hands and being here together.  Immediately my wife said some very negative comments about our relationship and me.  Our pastor seemed caught off guard and  shared some struggles with his family and teens.  Finally they both looked at me and I said "I think we had a great weekend and it's good to be here".  Then my wife and I sat together and she was all sweet and kind. 
So will it ever be strait from the heart or am I expecting too much?  Should I just be thankful she is able to change her behavior and enjoy the act of kindness she demonstrates?
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2019, 02:28:55 AM »

inhismercy, it's good you are understanding that your W's "dysregulations" are not your fault.

I also recommend your reading the other "eggshells" book, "The Essential Family Guide To Borderline Personality Disorder."  This expands understanding pwBPD and more on why they are the way they are.

Your W appearing "normal" in public and abusive to you is common. pwBPD have no identity, and are chameleons, often assuming a persona depending on the company or if in public.

Welcome to the board.  Please read and learn.  What you are going through is very painful, but understanding the behaviour is a "disorder" is helpful.  My own uBPD H can be very verbally abusive with divorce threats, name calling, insults and personal attacks and other verbal abuse.    You are not alone.  I learned not to cry or respond (not easily done, to be sure) but also not to rage back.  Doing either is a response, and you need to learn to disengage and not give fuel to the drama.
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