Coparenting vent... or am I missing something here?

[kells76]

SD12 is almost 13, so a year or two ago I gave her a "body book" because she said she didn't have one at Mom's. Last year I showed her where the pads were, and I'm sure Mom had similar conversations at her house.

So I'm doing laundry the other day and it's clear that SD12 has started her period, but didn't mention anything to DH or me. Moodwise she seemed fine and was doing all her normal stuff. Kids get picked up at the end of the weekend and I asked DH if SD12 had mentioned anything to him, which she hadn't. I asked if Mom had said anything to him either and Mom had not. So, I'm imagining that SD12 started this weekend, and Mom doesn't know, so I texted her a heads up -- "Hey, did SD say anything to you... .?"

Surprise, she had already told Mom (so this is at minimum 2 days ago... .if not multiple weeks?), but Mom texted back that "SD12 didn't want me to tell you or DH until she felt ready" and that "Mom was sending a bag of supplies with SD12 to our house".

Something about this got my ire up. I'm struggling with how similar Mom's verbiage is to YEARS ago when she would be all about "asking the kids if they wanted to tell us something" or "respecting the kids' trust" or "you shouldn't push them if they don't feel ready", all that kind of stuff that seems like it sounds good. So it's hard for me to deal with the times when Mom is seeming like a great supportive mom but there's something underneath it all that smacks of excluding DH and I from parenting so that Mom can be the supportive parent.

And is it crazy of me to think that Mom is kind of hanging SD12 out to dry by not telling DH and I so that we can support her at our house? Am I missing something?

Sigh... .

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hey kells76,

At a minimum I would say that SD12’s mom’s actions show her implicit inability to understand that these are the small seeds that grow into a large plant of division in the future... .or it’s a purposeful manipulation to gain SD12’s approval.

I don’t know what kind of communication you have with her but I might try openly letting her know this by email. Give her the benefit of doubt and inform her that this isn’t okay.

Don’t know... .maybe someone else has a better idea.

Good luck,
LAT

[worriedStepmom]

That sounds very similar to what happened in our house, down to the stepmom-gets-to-explain-the-facts-of-life-and-puberty-because-uBPDmom-won't.  I figured it out when uBPDmom actually sent a bag of pads to my house with SD.

In your case, mom was wrong to keep it a secret from you.  Mom isn't going to change.  All you can do is be very vocally supportive to SD when she's with you.

In my case, it's no use talking to uBPDmom about lack of communication, etc, because she doesn't believe I have a right to exist in her daughter's life, and she has severe body issues and wouldn't ever talk about something like that with my H, nor would she encourage SD to do so.

So when I saw the new pads I sat SD down and we had a long talk.  I made sure she understood what was happening to her body (we've had that convo a few times, but now it's real!).  I made sure she knew where the pads were and how to use them and dispose of them.  We talked about other varieties of sanitary products that we could buy and let her try.  We talked about how to let me know when she needed more supplies.  I talked until she stopped blushing.

We have conversations every month or so about sex and hygiene and puberty (some with her, some with her listening while I talk to D13 or S9).  Embarrasses the heck out of her to acknowledge any of this, but I'm determined that eventually all the kids will be matter-of-fact about bodily functions.

D13 is at that point, and is comfortable discussing with me and with her stepmom.  SD11 has a ways to go, and I think that is in large part due to conflicting messages from her mom (both about trusting me and about her body).

[kells76]

Thanks LAT -- I might pick DH's brain and see if he thinks calling her out on it would be worth it.

Back when the kids were seeing their T, Mom was a lot more receptive to working together (I think the T cleverly framed it as "good moms work together, and you're a good mom, right" though not that explicit). T wrapped up for SD12 a year or so ago, and then at some point in the last year Mom met up w/ DH to talk scheduling, worked out the whole schedule for the year, then told DH "I'm afraid you're going to abuse the kids" because Mom heard some accusations from DH's unhinged sister. Coparenting went pretty parallel after that, despite the T talking Mom down. I think Mom is getting used to the "old ways" again where she just did what she wanted and "forgot to tell us about stuff". I don't know what the leverage would be to encourage her to communicate more -- we're not planning on going back to court (I hope), so IDK if it's worth it to build a "paper trail" of noncommunication.

Thank you too WSM for the pep talk -- I think SD's mom is open about body stuff at their house, but perhaps on the oversharing side. I suspect the dynamic explaining why SD12 didn't have a "body book" there might be the "you don't need anyone/anything besides me" dynamic? I.e. "You don't need to tell DH & kells76 anything, I'll protect your secret; you don't need a body book, because you have me to talk to; you don't need to know where the pads are at DH's house, I'll dole them out to you" etc.

I need the reminders to go out of my comfort zone for the kids, because even though Mom in a way covers the bases, it's just one side of the story.

I'm trying to use the "tools", you know: having low expectations for Mom, remembering that "you can't argue with crazy", trying to be pleasantly surprised by cooperation & not unpleasantly surprised by uncooperation, etc. And yet, this caught me off guard.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hey kells76,

I think worriedstepmom’s idea is also a good idea to accompany a direct communication with SD’s mom.

I’m in the midst of the divorce process now and so I’m dealing with my stbexBPDw in a slightly different light. It may be different post divorce. However, I’ve noticed that stbexBPDw has been increasingly sowing these divisive small seeds with our 3 children with small comments. I’m much more actively responding to these in the moment and by email and/or messages.

Unfortunately it takes these direct communications for her to diminish these behaviors (don’t think she’ll ever stop) because otherwise they just continue. I’m not sure if she does them on purpose or quite possibly it’s just part of her ingrained disturbed persona. Whatever the reason direct calm communication to my stbexBPDw helps my situation.

My guess is that everyone is different in their response and maybe your DH will have a better feeling on this.

I just read the book Don’t Alienate the Kids that I really found to be a useful read regarding this subject. In fact I wasn’t being as proactive at intervening when she makes similar comments etc but after reading the book it made me realize that I could be worsening my long term situation with the children by not learning a more effective direct communication with stbexBPDw.

Good luck,
LAT

[kells76]

So I left a note for SD12 (we didn't have a chance to actually talk together since the last weekend) just giving her some info on how to count forward to predict when her next cycle would be, and saying that if she already knew all that, it was great, because it meant she was getting good information. I said I was there for her if she wanted to talk or not talk or write a note. I'd let DH know I was leaving her a note; he said he did see her read it and then stuff it in her backpack (she didn't want him to know what it was about, which is fine). I kind of feel like I need to keep my interactions with Mom parallel to my interactions with SD12 (i.e. the way I interact with SD12 is independent of whatever I do with Mom).

I talked with DH about what to email Mom, because I think my feeling of not wanting to do it is attached to the reality that nothing I say to her will probably "get through". (recall the fun revelation of how apparently Mom & Stepdad think of me as an "emotional child"). DH's experience has been that if you want anything done for the kids, you just have to do it.

So, what I would want to say & get through to Mom is that when she either asks SD12 if SD12 "wants" Mom to tell us what's up, or when Mom volunteers to "protect SD12's privacy", Mom is, whether she sees it that way or not, sending a message to SD12 that SD12 won't be taken care of at our house. That message undermines our ability to coparent and heightens SD12's anxieties. Moreover, imagine if we had some sort of road trip or long drive or event planned for that weekend, and we didn't know what was up with SD12. We could be far from supplies and she would be uncomfortable, unprepared, anxious, and bearing the brunt of Mom's failure to communicate.


OK, none of that is going to get sent. So what I'm thinking instead is not even trying to "get" Mom to see anything... .in fact, not even talking about how "I've thought about it and I want to try something different; I'd like us to communicate with each other about these big things going on for SD12, because she does better when we do". I think Mom would just be like, "Well, relationships are built on trust, and I do communicate with you, I bend over backward, if she doesn't want to talk to you then I respect her choice... .blah, blah, blah".

I think instead I might just email saying "Here's the brands of pads we have at the house; if you want to coordinate so that SD12 has what she likes at both houses, let me know some specifics and I'll pick them up." So, just acting and informing instead of asking and waiting.

Of course, I guess there's the option of saying nothing to Mom and just checking in with SD12, but to me that seems like starting to go down the same road as Mom.

Any thoughts from the group?

[worriedStepmom]

I think the communication to mom needs to come from your husband and not directly from you.  It's one thing for mom to deflect that 'you have to build that relationship of trust' with the stepmom; it's quite another to say that to the other parent who has a legal right to information about his child.

My H and I frequently disagree on when he needs to push back on uBPDmom, with him ALWAYS falling on the "don't talk to her, it does no good" end of the spectrum.  Sometimes I can present another way of looking at it, and he will send a response.  In cases like this which involve "female problems" you might be able to sway your H because he most likely seriously doesn't understand why this could have been a problem.

[kells76]

I think the communication to mom needs to come from your husband and not directly from you.

I have no problem with that 

DH is getting better at feeling like he has legs to stand on when talking with uBPDmom. Typical story... .SD10 was having trouble in school, and finally burst in to tears about it to DH one night. DH talked to Mom then sent an email to SD10's teacher. Apparently that's all it took for Mom to FINALLY go back to the provider who assessed SD10 for LD's 2+ years ago to FINALLY get what the actual diagnosis was.

I guess I'm struggling to figure out "what good will it do" for DH to call Mom out on her non-communication. Like I mentioned, we don't plan to go down the legal route again (hopefully), so this isn't exactly a case of "get a paper trail". And with the kids not seeing their T right now, there's no T to work with. And we all know that it will likely go in one ear and out the other with Mom. So I guess ultimately it's about our own integrity?

I do think DH got why it was a problem that Mom didn't tell us, though -- that it would've been SD12 most negatively affected.

[kells76]

Edit: I mean, ultimately, I KNOW "what good it will do" -- it's what we think is best for the kids. But you get what I'm wondering, right?

[worriedStepmom]

I get it.  This is why my H never wants to engage.

My personal test  -
a) am I wanting to send this message from a place of love for SD (and ONLY that)
b) if I were dealing with a non-PD person who made the choice uBPDmom did, would I feel that I needed to send this message?
c) Would a reasonable outsider looking at this situation decide that I should have sent this message?

H adds: d) is it likely that uBPDmom is going to have an absolute fit? If so, abort

[livednlearned]

Do you think some of this is about feeling left out?

Mom is mom to SD12 and this thing (typically) between moms and daughters leaves you feeling like an outsider to such a big moment?

You do all this work above and beyond the call of duty, you're a step mom who goes the extra mile, keeping SD rolling forward despite nuttiness multiplied. Yet something this big happens and you are left blind-sided.

It would be understandable to feel mad that you aren't in some way acknowledged.

It surprises me all the time the ambush pain of being the always emotionally stable and grounded step mom. No one seems to be giving me any trophies... .

[kells76]

(Hi LnL, good to hear from you again! Hope things have been going OK for you)

Is this about "feeling left out"? Maybe... .yes and no?

Yes: I feel left out of having info that would help DH and I support the kids -- a sense of "How am I supposed to be helpful and supportive if I have no idea what's going on?" I think I'm experiencing feeling "set up" by Mom (even though she probably did not consciously do things that way) to be "high and dry" and out of the loop on SD12.

No: I don't think I'm in it for the trophy (which is good, because I don't think anyone makes one saying "Stepmom Of The Year"   ). I don't think it would change what I do if Mom never says Thank You or It means a lot that you care about my daughter. I don't think my motivation for emailing Mom is to get kudos from her. I think, as far as I can tell, it is about "maybe we should share info so the kids have what they need here".

More thoughts: So when we were working with the kids' T, she (T) was interested in "upending the narratives" about the 4 adults involved; narratives that the kids, especially SD12, had internalized. Mom was supposed to be more of a "supportive cheerleader" for the kids (versus, now that I think about it, perhaps a focus all on Mom?), Stepdad was supposed to model "following the rules and directions", I forget what DH's was, and I was supposed to be an assertive presence in the kids' lives, taking more of a mom-style role at our house (versus fading into the background).

Although it's been a while since we've seen the T, I guess those directions stuck with me. Like, when in doubt, make an effort to be decisive, assertive, and a presence for the kids. TBH, it's uncomfortable for me! It's easier for me to just fade into the scenery. This probably comes from a childhood of absorbing feeling not important. So I feel like if I'm in a position with regards to the kids where "I could do A, or I could do B, and I'm not sure which is the better choice for them" (like going to Mom's "art show" or not), because of what the T recommended, and because I feel like I should push out of my comfort zone, I feel like I should do the assertive thing. In this case, sending the email and speaking up.

It's just hard for me to think that the right-er thing to do would also be the more comfortable thing to do.

[livednlearned]

I don't think anyone makes one saying "Stepmom Of The Year"   ).

can you imagine that award show  

More thoughts: So when we were working with the kids' T, she (T) was interested in "upending the narratives" about the 4 adults involved; narratives that the kids, especially SD12, had internalized. ... .I was supposed to be an assertive presence in the kids' lives, taking more of a mom-style role at our house (versus fading into the background).

Interesting. It kind of reminds me of Games People Play (a book about transactional analysis). The author says we shift between egos states (child-parent-adult) and that people play games because there is a payoff that reinforces a person's basic existential position.

Who knows what game mom might be playing (T seems to be asking you to be the "adult") On this topic at least, it seems like mom is operating from a child ego state (keeping secrets from adults). If she were in parent state, I would expect her to tell you how SD12 got her period and direct you to do xyz, like you were the child.

as far as I can tell, it is about "maybe we should share info so the kids have what they need here".

I guess the question is whether the game set up is for you (parent) to scold mom (child), in which case she wins because you walk into the parent role trap she set for you.

Usually when I feel exasperated by BPD type behavior, it's because I can feel there is a game and I'm stumped how to tap out. I feel set up and have to work hard to find the phrasing or response that allows me to come out as the adult.

It seems like you are already there kells76. The matter-of-fact response "We have these pads at the house, etc." signals that you are in the know and working matter-of-factly to move forwarded and are not activated by the secretive coy way mom handled this.

[kells76]

I haven't emailed anything to Mom at all.

It wasn't hard to figure out the brand of pads so we picked up some of those too. It's basically like the grocery store aisle under the bathroom sink now!    SD12 due again this weekend with us, so I'll carry some stuff in my backpack for her too.

I guess it's hard to trust that I'm making the best possible decision by not working with Mom on this. The upside is that not engaging does deflate whatever drama/sense of importance she might have wanted. The downside is that I'm still questioning whether it's best for SD12 (soon to be SD13... .)

It would be possible to meet with the kids' T again, I think -- just to lay it out. Though Mom does receive notifications of all appointments. I could try asking for a phone consultation.

Maybe I need to just pat myself on the back for doing the best I can. Hard to do.

[ForeverDad]

I wasn't going to comment, but... .since both parents know SD is growing into adulthood then what need is there left to communicate?  I mean, something new?  Something productive?

[kells76]

Hi FD;

what need is there left to communicate?

I guess there was the "what" of what needed to be communicated and also the "how".

The "what" / "content" of what needed to be communicated ultimately got communicated. True, it was because I was doing laundry, not because Mom let us know. But yes, one way of looking at the situation is that if you bracket everything else, then what needed to be communicated did get communicated.

I think what I was struggling with was the "how" of communication, which is related to what LnL brought up -- it felt like the same "game" that Mom used to (still does?) play, of information being power to her. And it bugs me that it's like as soon as the kids' T isn't "managing" Mom, she goes right back to her comfort zone of "the kids feel safe telling me things, and don't want to tell you things until they 'feel ready' to". So, instead of doing our task that the T set us of "communicating more for the kids", she's not doing what the T said to. Because of my personality, it really grates on me when the situation is that we all had our really specific tasks, and how hard is it to do the ONE THING the T said we should, you have one job so do it, etc, etc. *end of vent*

So the issue was/is maybe more like -- is it worth it for DH to address Mom's lack of communication with her? FD, I might agree with you that it would be fruitless for DH to harp on "you should have told us about SD12 and her needs" because that horse has left the barn. But the bigger issue of "how" is still out there. And there's really nobody putting a check on Mom's behavior any more. So is it better for the kids that DH brings up communication with Mom? Even though she likely won't change? I guess it's kind of a "personal integrity" question at the end of the day.

[livednlearned]

I have a similar issue with SD21, kells76. It's passive-aggressive one-upmanship where I'm getting a metaphorical elbow to the throat. To engage her tit-for-tat is to lose.

It takes me a lot of thinking and usually some discomfort to shine light on the behavior skillfully. If I show that I'm emotional then I lose the game.

It's also frustrating to describe the issue to someone because the moves are shadowy and sensed below the radar. It's never the thing, it's the stuff below the thing  

It sounds like biomom is willing to throw SD13 under the bus to score a point against you.
And you want to figure out how to deal with these moves when they happen again, which they will, even if you don't necessarily tackle this one head-on?

[kells76]

And you want to figure out how to deal with these moves when they happen again, which they will, even if you don't necessarily tackle this one head-on?

I think that's pretty close.

There's a new "opportunity" to figure out how I want to communicate with Mom: SD10 has been in one dance class, but her friends are in another one elsewhere. She saw them perform the other day and mentioned to us that she doesn't want to do her current class any more, but wants to do this one that her friends do.

On the one hand, I don't like the idea of "jumping" every time SD10 wants to do something different. I'm not sure that would really help her with building "distress tolerance" (i.e. maybe it's OK to not do everything your friends do) or with sticking with a commitment.

On the other hand, it would switch her dance class from one of our nights to one of Mom's nights. Fine by me   I think SD10 needs a lot more time with DH and Mom hasn't really been pushing to make that happen.

So, there's an opportunity for me to email about this (versus DH -- when it comes to dance, that is one thing where it's usually me coordinating with Mom). And I am already seeing it as a "win-win". I just don't want to get pulled into playing a game or being stuck in roles with Mom in this exchange. And as with SD13, I don't want to have information used as leverage for Mom's feelings of control.

Maybe we can workshop emails here? This is what comes to mind first:

"Hi SD10's Mom;

SD10 mentioned the other day that she's interested in doing New Dance Class instead of Old Dance Class. "

and then I'm not sure whether to go to with something like "let's figure out what will work for her" versus "let me know what you think so we can coordinate"

I doubt Mom will at all say anything like "What do you think, kells76?" or "I think she should stay, but we could be flexible". I fully anticipate some word salad about "well she already told me she didn't like Old Dance Class and I think she's too busy and the new one would work as long as you take her if that's what she really wants" -- something both inscrutable and about Mom's previous knowledge of all this.

I guess I am looking for some workshopping help on sending an email that both cracks the door as little as possible to Mom's behaviors, but also is a good "practice zone" for me being assertive and having integrity. And this "win win" situation seems like a good practice area.

Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you are ok with the outcome either way?

Why not just, "SD10 mentioned she's interested in doing New Dance Class instead of Old Dance Class. Do you have any thoughts either way?"

[kells76]

Ah, so simple  sometimes I really need other eyes on things!

Yeah, I'd be OK with it either way. If she stays, then she's learning to stick with commitments -- and we'd get to dance together, which is special. If she switches, then it'd be on Mom's nights, and she'd get more time with DH.

I'll talk with DH and send something short. We'll see what Mom does with it.

[kells76]

72 hours since I sent

"Hi SD10's Mom;
SD10 mentioned recently not wanting to do Dance Class any more. Do you have any thoughts one way or the other?
Thanks;
kells76"

Must not be important! 

We'll see if she brings it up at exchange today, or if she has Stepdad say something. Otherwise, I anticipate a reply only if I follow up, probably saying she was "just so busy".

Clearly this is bugging me, even though I struggle with feeling like it's small potatoes compared to what other members are dealing with. One thought/feeling I am working with is "Oh my god, just WORK TOGETHER, how hard can this be?" Another thought/feeling I am having is that Mom is probably in a double bind -- I suspect she didn't like how SD10 did this activity in "my zone" as it were, but she may also not want to "legitimize" me as on equal turf with her by replying. And she may want SD10 to stop also to save $, but if she "senses" that I am OK with SD10 ending, she might want to keep her in Dance Class, just to... .IDK, have some power.

Lots of ifs. I may need to work on still seeing this as a win-win: I had integrity by trying to work together, I'm OK if SD10 stays in Dance Class or quits, I have no further responsibilities to "make" Mom communicate. So I can work on just expressing a lot of how I'm feeling here on the boards, and then letting go for a while. Thanks for listening... .