How I stopped being so angry

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello everyone. I wanted to share with you how I stopped being so angry at my BPD mom, NPD dad (THAT was a harder one) and my partner with PD traits.

It was due to a woman named  Harriet Lerner, Ph.D. and her book the Dance of Anger.

It was easy to understand what she’s talking about, but it took years to really absorb and own it. I thought I would just let her explain it first.

It is extremely difficult to learn with our hearts, as well as our heads, that we have a right to everything we think and feel,  and so does everyone else. It is our job to state our thoughts and feelings clearly and to make responsible decisions that fall within with our values and beliefs.  It is not our job to make another person think and feel the way we do or the way we want them to.  If we try, we can end up in a relationship in which a lot of personal pain and emotional intensity are being expanded and nothing is changing. We are able to move away from ineffective fighting only when we give up the fantasy that we can change or control another person.  It only then that we can reclaim the power that is truly ours – the power to change our own selves and take new and different action on our own behalf. ~ Harriet Lerner, Ph.D.

So she is saying that:

1.  if you accept that you can’t change your partner, you can stop ineffective fights that go around in circles and circles and just maintain the status quo.

For me, this went hand in hand with realizing I was not going to change what my partner thought about me. I knew he needed to feel superior because he was so fragile. So I let him think negative things about me. I had tried to change his mind for years. Never did any good.  

I handled my anger in different ways, and eventually it seemed silly to have a fight with someone who WANTED to believe something bad about me and used EVERY example that came up to prove his point.

It was like fighting a troll online with someone of the exact opposite political pursuasion who would NEVER admit they were wrong. So what was the POINT?

I stopped being angry. Fights averted.
 

2. She is also saying that if you accept that you can’t change your partner, you can take back power you may have given them and spend it on your own behalf.

That's just what I did.

[Randi Kreger]

Hello everyone. I wanted to share with you how I stopped being so angry at my BPD mom, NPD dad (THAT was a harder one) and my partner with PD traits.

It was due to a woman named  Harriet Lerner, Ph.D. and her book the Dance of Anger.

It was easy to understand what she’s talking about, but it took years to really absorb and own it. I thought I would just let her explain it first.

It is extremely difficult to learn with our hearts, as well as our heads, that we have a right to everything we think and feel,  and so does everyone else. It is our job to state our thoughts and feelings clearly and to make responsible decisions that fall within with our values and beliefs.  It is not our job to make another person think and feel the way we do or the way we want them to.  If we try, we can end up in a relationship in which a lot of personal pain and emotional intensity are being expanded and nothing is changing. We are able to move away from ineffective fighting only when we give up the fantasy that we can change or control another person.  It only then that we can reclaim the power that is truly ours – the power to change our own selves and take new and different action on our own behalf. ~ Harriet Lerner, Ph.D.

So she is saying that:

1.  if you accept that you can’t change your partner, you can stop ineffective fights that go around in circles and circles and just maintain the status quo.

For me, this went hand in hand with realizing I was not going to change what my partner thought about me. I knew he needed to feel superior because he was so fragile. So I let him think negative things about me. I had tried to change his mind for years. Never did any good.  

I handled my anger in different ways, and eventually it seemed silly to have a fight with someone who WANTED to believe something bad about me and used EVERY example that came up to prove his point.

It was like fighting a troll online with someone of the exact opposite political pursuasion who would NEVER admit they were wrong. So what was the POINT?

I stopped being angry. Fights averted.
 

2. She is also saying that if you accept that you can’t change your partner, you can take back power you may have given them and spend it on your own behalf.

That's just what I did.

[itsmeSnap]

I think it's more about caring for the right things rather than the little details.

Simply not caring can indeed get you unstuck by not engaging, but then you're also not engaged.

It is so simple to leave that it is the default reaction of everyone that hears these stories, so much so that we have a "please NO RUN MESSAGES" on the board, people come here looking for someone that listens and understand that they don't want to give up the relationship.

Of course I understand we can't "fix" our loved ones, but does that mean we have to put them out to the curb? I think not.

So I let him think negative things about me. I had tried to change his mind for years. Never did any good.  

Again, we can't change them ourselves and we shouldn't put up with abuse. To just "let them" I think and it has been my experience with my dad, is also less than productive, it puts him in a "festering" position were everything gets worse and worse. When I've told him "this is not how things are" and he continues, I remove myself.

But now he knows my point of view, and he gets to decide what to do with that info. He also wants to be close to me, but he struggles. So he decides to listen, we talk about something else, he knows we don't agree on that, he knows I won't change my mind, so he stops, I stop.

Another poster named Coldfish also has been coming here with a similar story about her partner. She sets the stage, tells him how things are, calls out his deflections, and leaves him be. She reports things get better, he realizes his mistake and tries to make amends.

Obviously it takes for the other person to want change, but I fear by using a hard and fast rule we can miss out or hold on to issues for way longer than we should.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this approach, are we talking about the same thing with different words? Obviously the devil is in the details, so feel free to comment back!

[Randi Kreger]

So that is what that "don't run" message meant. It highjacked my whole point. Sorry about not going by the guidelines.

I actually did not leave in the way most people speak of it. We are not divorced, and we have no plans to. We just live seperately. We spent Christmas together. I am his best friend. WHen I got cancer, I depended on him.

The reasons all those things are possible is that I'm not angry at him anymore. There was a time I felt the need to control what he thought about me. Now I don't.

And a big part of it was because of what I learned from The Dance of Anger, which is what I wanted to talk about.

Specifically, her concepts that:

1. We have a right to our thoughts and feelings. So do our partners, even if those thoughts and feelings are distorted by a PD. That is Thing One.

2. It's not our job to make them come over to our way of thinking. They're entitled to their own thoughts and feelings.  Thing 2.

3. It is our job to state our thoughts and feelings clearly and make our own decisions based upon that. Not their thoughts and feelings, although we acknowledge they have the right to have them. They are not wrong. They are just different. Thing 3.

I just want to know if I am talking to myself here or not. Are these concepts familiar or unfamiliar?

[Randi Kreger]

 @Steps31

A lot of times when people don’t let the anger out it comes back as depression or guilt

[Bnonymous]

I’m wondering what you think of the quote and if it might help you. I will say I had a lot of practice with this because of my parents. Does this seem like something moderately hard, hard, impossible, easy, etc?

To me, for the most part, it seems easy, in that I find it a natural and intuitive way to look at things. So I've been reflecting on it and trying to see areas where it may be harder/more complicated, and I think the difficulty is in examples where our partner's thoughts about us diverge in significant ways from how we see ourselves.

I think most of us want to feel visible to our partners (I know that's something which is important to me, personally). So, when their thoughts are, for example, "She's lying" when you're someone who is scrupulously honest or "She's cheating" when you're someone who has never been unfaithful in their lives and never would be, it can feel like being invisible. And such things can really undermine a relationship, I think.

Imagine, as an analogy, physical characteristics. Imagine if your partner kept telling you that you're gorgeous, but it later transpired that he was convinced that you were 5' 11" and brunette, when you're actually 5' 2" and blonde. You would wonder what it is he saw when he looked at you and you would know that his image of you didn't resemble what you saw in the mirror. You'd know that what he is calling gorgeous is not something you identify as your body.

This doesn't tend to happen so extremely with physical characteristics, of course. But (with everyone, but especially with people with BPD) it can happen when it comes to characteristics of personality, e.g. when you see yourself as truthful and faithful but he sees you as a liar and a cheat.

No one ever really sees us as we see ourselves. And no two people ever have completely the same view of a third person. This is just how it is to be human and unique. But, I think, for a relationship to work, there has to be some degree of overlap between our partner's view of us and our view of ourselves. If there isn't, then it calls everything into question - for example, when he says "I love you" but there is a vast gap between who he thinks you are and who you think you are, then what can he mean and who is he talking to? It is like a psychic equivalent of the imaginary man who says "you're gorgeous" to someone when he isn't aware of their most basic physical characteristics.

I still agree completely that everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and that we can't and shouldn't try to make our partners think and feel how we would like them to. I agree completely that it is vital to accept that we cannot change our partners.

But I question whether a relationship can truly work if there isn't some degree of harmony in how our partners see us and how we see ourselves. I think that is where it can get tricky. And maybe that is why people fall into the trap of trying to change their partner's views, because they feel like "If he can't see me, if he doesn't know me, then what's the point?" Maybe they do it when they feel a/ they love this person and want to be with them, and b/ they cannot be in a relationship with someone who doesn't see/know them? Maybe it is a futile but desperate attempt to resolve an insoluble dilemma?

[Bnonymous]

(Adding more thoughts as they occur to me... .)

Attempting to change our partner's thoughts is never the answer and would likely lead to frustration and pain. It is liberating to accept that this isn't our job.

Often, the answer is a blend of depersonalising and translating (usually this involves mentally converting their "you" statement into an "I" one). For example, if our partner says "You can't be trusted," then (instead of JADEing and attempting to convince our partner of our trustworthiness) we can depersonalise and translate this into "I cannot trust you" and then offer our partner understanding and support regarding how it feels to be unable to trust us.

Sometimes, it's more tricky, especially when it involves issues which cut to the core of our values and identities. A fictional example: Imagine you are a vegetarian who feels really passionately about it on ethical grounds, you've been committed to your vegetarianism for all of your adult life, you have been involved with vegetarian organisations and campaigning against the meat trade, many of your friendships were formed through this shared ideology etc. It's a central part of who you are. Your meat-eating partner says and believes "I know what you're like - the minute my back is turned, you'll be sneaking off for a bacon butty like you always do".

You might not be able to change your partner's thoughts about this. You might fully accept that they are entitled to their own thoughts. You may resist JADEing and feel liberated by not feeling you have to take it upon yourself to change their mind about you. But it would be very very difficult to have a meaningful and connected intimate relationship with someone whose view of you is diametrically opposed to your view of yourself in an area that is central to your value-system and identity.

The values you've talked about and quoted above are founded on respect for the autonomy and individuality of people. But our autonomy and individuality is undermined when we are not judged on our actions. An important part of being an adult human-being is knowing that we will be judged on the basis of our actions and our choices. When this is absent (as it often is in BPD relationships) it can be extremely difficult to maintain any kind of meaningful connection. I think this is sometimes the reason why people can become desperate to change their partner's thoughts (even though I agree that it is not our job to do this).

[Steps31]

What about the notion that the thoughts and feelings that come into our heads are not in our control, and therefore, as one blogger puts it "not even our business"?

Does this help make it easier for either side to not try to change the other's thoughts?

[itsmeSnap]

But I question whether a relationship can truly work if there isn't some degree of harmony in how our partners see us and how we see ourselves.

And maybe that is why people fall into the trap of trying to change their partner's views

I think that's the point Scarecrow1 is trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong): You have to realize when there is a disparity, and you take it for what it is.

My "contribution" would be: if you want to make it work despite that, you work with it, not against it.

3. It is our job to state our thoughts and feelings clearly and make our own decisions based upon that. Not their thoughts and feelings, although we acknowledge they have the right to have them. They are not wrong. They are just different. Thing 3.

From what I understand, this is sort of like you don't expect fire to keep you cool, and yet propane freezers exist  welp, thats way out there, my point is it takes some serious mind power and effort to figure out a system that works with whatever's naturally there, let fire be fire and you figure out a way to make ice out of it, if it makes any sense.

Also, fire can burn your house down if you let it, whether you're arguing/fighting with it, try to convince it or nag it not to  

I just want to know if I am talking to myself here or not. Are these concepts familiar or unfamiliar?

Not unfamiliar but hard to put our mind to it. I guess we sort of "get it" but it feels like not enough you know? kinda like "give up, there's no winning in this fight" and yet we try harder because "maybe you can't, but for sure I'll win!"

Mostly because how do we convince ourselves of thing 3: "They are not wrong. They are just different."?

Like bnonymous said, we see a discrepancy and we assume we are correct because "we see it right and they don't, they have a PD".

Thing 1 and 2 seems like we get it, we're having trouble with thing 3.

Hope that helps, keep us posted
 

[Bnonymous]

Like bnonymous said, we see a discrepancy and we assume we are correct because "we see it right and they don't, they have a PD".

I didn't say anything even remotely like that.  

Sorry, but I don't think that and I wouldn't want people to think that I did. I don't think right or wrong come into it and I would never think that my partner's having a personality disorder meant he didn't see things right - I think that would be hugely disrepsectful and dehumanising towards him and it's not an attitude I'd ever take.

[itsmeSnap]

I didn't say anything even remotely like that

Sorry about that.

[Randi Kreger]

for the most part, it seems easy, in that I find it a natural and intuitive way to look at things. So I've been reflecting on it and trying to see areas where it may be harder/more complicated, and I think the difficulty is in examples where our partner's thoughts about us diverge in significant ways from how we see ourselves.

I think most of us want to feel visible to our partners (I know that's something which is important to me, personally). So, when their thoughts are, for example, "She's lying" when you're someone who is scrupulously honest or "She's cheating" when you're someone who has never been unfaithful in their lives and never would be, it can feel like being invisible. And such things can really undermine a relationship, I think.

You are absolutely and totally correct.

It is one thing not to be known to your loved one. It is another thing to be thought of as completely the opposite of the way that you are.It is even more horrible.

For me personally, I would never choose to be in a relationship where I was invisible, not seen, and thought to be the exact opposite of what I was. I was not seen by my parents when I was growing up, and I could not do that. Not again.

To not be seen is the exact opposite of intimacy. It is not the lack of intimacy. It is taking intimacy and  tearing it up and burning it and bearing it deep where nobody can never find it again.

 When I say that you cannot control somebody else’s thoughts, I’m not saying that it’s OK that your partner views you in a way that is untenable to you. I am not putting a value judgment on it at all. You can’t control the way your partner thinks about you Whether it’s a big thing or a little thing, or an important thing or   an important thing.

I was busy making my point and I wasn’t taking the time to tell you that that doesn’t make it OK. Whether or not it is OK wasn’t part of the discussion right then.

I find it interesting though that your partner, from what I understand although I could be wrong, seems to find you to be the exact opposite of what you are. On two different things. That seems highly unusual.

 All you can do is demonstrate who you are and be who you are and know that Most people you care about and who love you know you and know exactly who you are.

If that is not acceptable to you, that your partner is completely invalidating you, then that becomes something you have to deal with.

[Randi Kreger]

But I question whether a relationship can truly work if there isn't some degree of harmony in how our partners see us and how we see ourselves. I think that is where it can get tricky. And maybe that is why people fall into the trap of trying to change their partner's views, because they feel like "If he can't see me, if he doesn't know me, then what's the point?" Maybe they do it when they feel a/ they love this person and want to be with them, and b/ they cannot be in a relationship with someone who doesn't see/know them? Maybe it is a futile but desperate attempt to resolve an insoluble dilemma?”

Yes, you are exactly right. For a relationship to be healthy, each person needs to feel Seen by the other person. When people describe the people that they are in love with, They often say things like, “he gets me.” He understands me. He knows me. And then, she accepts me the way I am.

Feeling known and feeling accepted Are essential for intimate and healthy partner relationships. When you don’t have those things, you’re going to feel uncomfortable and Unknown and like you always have to prove something and frustrated.

[Randi Kreger]

it would be very very difficult to have a meaningful and connected intimate relationship with someone whose view of you is diametrically opposed to your view of yourself in an area that is central to your value-system and identity.

The values you've talked about and quoted above are founded on respect for the autonomy and individuality of people. But our autonomy and individuality is undermined when we are not judged on our actions. An important part of being an adult human-being is knowing that we will be judged on the basis of our actions and our choices. When this is absent (as it often is in BPD relationships) it can be extremely difficult to maintain any kind of meaningful connection. I think this is sometimes the reason why people can become desperate to change their partner's thoughts (even though I agree that it is not our job to do this).”

I am dictating this on a tiny smart phone Very late at night. Please forgive my typos. I have been working really late because I have so much to do.

First, I have to say it was really cool to hear you say that it was nice To know that you don’t have to convince your borderline or narcissistic loved one that they’re wrong and you’re right. I was really hoping to hear something like that.

Secondly, I agree with everything that you say. Yes, that is the reason why people can become desperate to change the partners thoughts. They want that intimacy. They want to be known. They want to be loved unconditionally! Being loved unconditionally takes a great big pie in the face when the one thing you really pride yourself on is something your partner refuses to acknowledge.

My partner was absolutely convinced I had borderline personality disorder. His therapist told him that I had it. My therapists disagree vehemently. He didn’t care. He wanted me to have borderline personality disorder, and there was no way I was going to change his mind.

 The point was is that he could tell me how stupid I was for writing books about BPD and having it and not even realizing it. Stupid stupid stupid. So I would go on about my own therapist and what they thought and of course he didn’t care. He didn’t even take it in. He couldn’t listen. He had the ability to sit and have noise go through one ear and out the other and not retain a bit of anything he did not want to hear.

This is the staying  board, so I’m going to be specific again and say that I am still very friendly with my partner and we are not divorced but living separately. I simply found that I could not live with somebody who desperately needed me to be inferior.

The funny thing was is that of course the thing that really defines somebody with BPD is fear of abandonment. And I was the one who finally had to say, listen, I need to live by myself. That’s the only way this marriage is going to work. And of course somebody with BPD would never be able to do that. But of course he didn’t know enough about BPD to appreciate that.

Thankfully, living apart has made it so he has had to realize that I really am not the source of his problems and that he has had to face the fact that he has to solve his own problems by himself.

So now when we are able to interact, things are very good between us. I needed to grow up and learn how to do things myself without depending on somebody else, and he needed to learn how to deal with his own stuff. So it’s really helped both of us grow.

[Turkish]

Talking about my ex,  my T told me this a few years ago, "she's an independent entity, free to make her own choices,  no matter how foolish you think they are." I think that this applies to feelings as well. 

I was the target of much shaming.  My BPD mother wasn't so overt,  but telegraphed disappointment that I hadn't done more wth my life. 

I think it's good to realize what belongs in whose court.

[Notwendy]

I get what you are saying. I didn't read Dance of Anger but I came to a point where I realized that I really don't have the power to change someone's thinking- they choose to think what they want to think. All the JADE can't change that. It helped me to stop circular discussions and also trying to correct accusations.

I think we can add the idea of projection here too. PwBPD tend to project their bad feelings on to someone and that also distorts how they see them.

I think not buying into distorted thinking is not the same as being disconnected. It's about having boundaries on our own self image. If someone thought I was 5'10" when I'm not, all that thinking doesn't change my self image. I know I'm not 5'10".  If I start to JADE and try to convince them I am not 5'10" then I buy into their distorted thinking in a way. If it isn't true, there isn't anything to explain.

I've felt an odd sense of being manipulated by my H at times to do things. Not in the sense of abuse but being manipulated to do things the way he wants them. I've written about how he refused to help with dishes. You'd think this wasn't a big deal but I would get the sense that he somehow enjoyed me being in servitude. This is different than being in service to someone- genuinely doing something caring. It felt more like as long as he didn't do dishes, he was setting things up so he could feel "superior" to me. He didn't do these tasks because he was "superior" and I had to do them ( someone has to !) My BPD mother does this a lot as well.

In our marriage there were conflicts over money and purchases. His clothes had to be better than mine. His car is better than mine. He spends more money on himself than I do on my personal purchases. My BPD mother does this too- has to have the most, the best of everything. It's been an odd feeling as my H is not like my mother in most ways- but I would emotionally pick up on these behaviors and it didn't make sense to me. It seems petty to argue over some of these things, but what I was picking up was a sense of being manipulated. It wasn't about the dishes. I do them all the time. It was about being manipulated to do the dishes and other things.

Like you, I'm not angry. I am grateful I don't need to feel superior to someone to feel OK about myself. I don't want a special car- just a safe decent one. It never occurred to me to need to have nicer clothing than my H has- if I had them I would want him to have them too. During most of our arguments, it felt like a competition- with him winning. I went into my marriage wanting to be a team, but felt more like his employee.

I'm still married but what it took for me to stop feeling angry and stop JADE was to not buy into this thinking and hold on to my own self image. I'm not less than, or superior to, anyone and if someone else needs to think that, it doesn't change my own self image.  

[Randi Kreger]

Yet another person told to validate somebody who is abusing her or him. Yes. Please abuse me some more. I can certainly understand why you feel like abusing me.  It must feel good to threaten me. Perhaps it makes you feel powerful and strong.

Would you believe that it’s possible to put your foot down and have your own way? You may think that only your partner can do that. But you can too.

I had a partner and I thought only he could do that. He had this rule that he wouldn’t use the silverware that we got during the wedding because we had to save it for special circumstances. But he was an introvert so we would never invite people over. But I wanted to use the good silverware. So we had a drawer with two sets of silverware, one for me and one for him.

Then we redecorated the kitchen. I wasn’t going to put two sets of silverware in the drawer. To my astonishment, when my partner insisted that we do that, my voice raised up and just said no!  I am not having to sets of silverware! I knew this was a dumb thing in the beginning and I was sick of coddling him. To my surprise, he backed it down.

I cannot answer this question for you in a post. I answered it in a book and I’m afraid you’re going to have to get a copy of the book one way or the other. The essential family guide to borderline PD.

There is a good reason it took three years for me to write the essential Family Guide to the borderline personality disorder. It was as hard as hell. So the first thing that you need to do before you try to set a boundary is go through step number two, which is figure out why you are stuck.

If you are having trouble setting a consequence because you are afraid of losing the relationship, because of fear obligation and guilt, or for any other reason, you need to work through that first. That is all explained in the chapter of EFG “getting unstuck.” That is tool two.

Then you need to learn how to communicate with your narcissist. That is three. Except with a narcissist, you can’t be wishy-washy. You need to be firm. I don’t have this in EFG, but I recommend when you’re setting up a consequence, use the BIFF method that Bill Eddy pioneered which is brief, informative, friendly, and firm.  He has articles and a book about it.

Then finally you get to the chapter on setting limits and the setting limits planning process. In this process, you imagine all the things that could happen when you set the limit and you planned contingencies for anything that could happen.

Don’t let yourself be intimidated into anything. This is as Much your thing as it is his or her’s.Your financial future is at stake. Only do what you think is best.

[Skip]

With any of these things, I think it is important to be sure we have not slipped into something unhealthy in he process of trying to improve our situations.

Stage Three Most people find conflict and contempt to be stressful and react to such conditions by entering the third stage of breakdown, characterized by partner's increasingly defensive behavior. Men in particular (but women too) become hardened by the chronicity of the ongoing conflict, and may react even more acutely during moments when conflict is most heated by becoming overwhelmed and "flooded"; a condition which is psychologically and emotionally quite painful. Over time, partners learn to expect that they are 'gridlocked'; that they cannot resolve their differences, and that any attempts at resolution will result in further overwhelm, hurt or disappointment.

Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I think most of what you are suggesting here is described in Gottman's third and forth stage of relationship breakdown. This is a not about improving or rehabilitating a relationship - its more about protecting yourself and being resigned to it things break down. From what you say, it sounds like your relationship is in these later stages that Gottman writes about. A lot of people on the "Conflicted" board are in this stages, too.

THE DANCE OF Anger A Woman’s Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships Harriet Lerner, Ph.D.

She was trying to change her husband’s thoughts and feelings about the workshop and his reactions to her going. She wanted him to approve of the workshop and she wanted him to want her to go. In short, she wanted him to think and feel about the workshop as she did. Of course, most of us secretly believe that we have the corner on the “truth” and that this would be a much better world if everyone else believed and reacted exactly as we do. But one of the hallmarks of emotional maturity is to recognize the validity of multiple realities and to understand that people think, feel, and react differently. Often we behave as if “closeness” means “sameness.” Married couples and family members are especially prone to behave as if there is one “reality” that should be agreed upon by all. It is extremely difficult to learn, with our hearts as well as our heads, that we have a right to everything we think and feel—and so does everyone else.

I went to Lerner's book and looked at at the paragraph prior to your quote (posted above). I think, in that section of the book, Lerner is talking about the importance of self-differentiation.

Self-differentiation, for anyone not familiar, was first introduced by Murray Bowen MD, whose ideas are the basis of Family Systems Theory.

There are two aspects to self-differentiation: intrapsychic differentiation and interpersonal differentiation. Intrapsychic differentiation is when we can tell apart our thoughts from our emotions. In other words, it’s self-awareness. On the other hand, interpersonal differentiation is when we distinguish our experience from the experience of people we are connected to.

Lerner is talking about the second (interpersonal differentiation). Her case example (highlighted) is similar to yours. You want you husband think and feel about BPD as you do. He refuses. You have labeled him as "stupid, stupid, stupid", withdrawn and moved out.

My partner was absolutely convinced I had borderline personality disorder. His therapist told him that I had it. My therapists disagree vehemently. He didn’t care. He wanted me to have borderline personality disorder, and there was no way I was going to change his mind. The point was is that he could tell me how stupid I was for writing books about BPD and having it and not even realizing it. Stupid stupid stupid. So I would go on about my own therapist and what they thought and of course he didn’t care. He didn’t even take it in. He couldn’t listen. He had the ability to sit and have noise go through one ear and out the other and not retain a bit of anything he did not want to hear. This is the staying  board, so I’m going to be specific again and say that I am still very friendly with my partner and we are not divorced but living separately. I simply found that I could not live with somebody who desperately needed me to be inferior. ~ DGale

I believe Lerner is saying that  this is not the most emotionally mature way to handle this. Gottman says that things like this relationships demise. Bowen (and Lerner ) suggest that a more constructive plan would be to look within and seek to be strong enough with your own identity that you are able to function in a world where others don't always agree with you.

This is very different than a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection.

[Randi Kreger]

I have a different take on stupid stupid stupid. I think that what she meant was that HE  thought that SHE was stupid stupid stupid for thinking that she didn’t have BPD herself. If she had been stonewalling and angry herself, then the first post  about how she overcame anger wouldn’t make any sense.

She wasn’t calling him stupid. She was perfectly happy to be in the relationship. She wasn’t stonewalling at all. She was still yearning  for an intimate relationship and talked about it in therapy session is up until the end.

Despite his reluctance to have a normal relationship full of normal things, and his insistence on putting her down at all times, she was still very loving, compassionate, and attempted to be physically affectionate. I’m not sure if this meant she was a good person or simply clueless.

 She still treats him with love, compassion and affection.  Again, either she’s a good person or just clueless. 

The relationship didn’t stonewall. He did.

[once removed]

randi, im a little confused. why do you think scarecrow1 "begged to be intimate and was in therapy session after therapy session for 15 years."

[AskingWhy]

Scarecrow, "Dance of Anger," is a great book.

I have read many books, including Randi's, and they are all helpful in understanding how BPD works, but how our interactions can help or hinder a R/S.

My means of dealing with my uBPD H when he dysregulates is to ignore him and make light of his tantrum.  I literally walk away.  As such, I am married but emotionally uninvolved.  I know he splits his children white while I am always black.  I am reviled and blamed for H's misfortunes, while his adult children, raised by his uNPD X W and all in both BPD and NPD spectra, are praised and adored, and he spends thousands of dollars in gifts while they emotionally abuse and blackmail him.

These are my coping mechanisms.  I have my own hobbies, interests and friends and don't need my H for validation.  I know exactly where I stand in the R/S and why my H is the way he is.  (His F was likely uNPD and his M was an enabler.)

[truthbeknown]

this is a very interesting thread and i'm dealing with some of these issues right now.

I'm in a new relationship (7mo) and conflicted because in a short period of time my partner has demonstrated that she is quick to anger and gets emotionally dysregulated when she feels criticized.

If I thought it was just me then I would know that I was being inappropriate in my responses to her but I have seen her "punish" and "stonewall" people in her family and in work situations to get what she wants.  She even told me it works. 

Here's the "FOG" factor for me.  When she comes down off her high horse she realizes that she was angry and is sorry for that.  She makes some realizations about her family dynamic etc. that may have shaped her in this way.  She is looking into things like Oriental medicine to help with her "liver fire" and most times she feels bad when I retract a little to recover. 

Why do I retract? I simply get so overwhelmed by being painted black that I go into a PTSD because I was married to someone who started out fine but then after a traumatic event showed BPD tendencies and painted me black.  So I'm afraid that being in a long term relationship with someone else who can't regulate emotions will just complicate my life and I won't have anyone to support me in my plight with my ex (who still alienates my kids due to distortions about me). 

So as I read the comments on this board I'm conflicted because I love my partner when she is not in "rage" mode but I also am struggling to balance because I want to learn to take care of myself and being with someone who can switch personalities so quickly over the smallest disagreement or sign of disappoint scares me. 

Last rage was over me asking her a question about how she communicated with her boss.  She seems to be very paranoid about the worst in people and now in me when she feels like someone doesn't support her perspective 100%.   

Pulling back a bit is the only way to avoid 2 hour conversations where they just go in circles and she tells me how unsupportive i am despite practically spending all my free time with her.  I would happily spend all this time with her but now it's starting to feel like i'm investing too much in her (probably because after she splits me it feels like why spend some much time with someone who can turn on you in a dime and project that you are doing that to them!).

I do search for the grey's in most situations so the topic of stonewalling and letting go of anger is interesting.  I think there may be a happy medium?