Once he got in my face and screamed over and over then he physically blocked me

[Ozzie101]

When he starts getting upset about anything, he will find a way to turn it around and get angry at me -- even if it's utter nonsense. I've noticed more and more that he asks my advice or wants me to make decisions for me. I think it's so that, if something doesn't go the way he wants, he can blame me. He's doing anger management therapy and keeps pressing me to go with him or trying to put the decision to go or not onto me. I'm resisting on both fronts because I'm sure he's really trying to get me to take the responsibility.

Your suggestions on how to end the conversation and react to his abuse and disrespect are good ones. The problem is, I have tried them before.

Once, when he was really worked up with something and got nasty, I calmly and firmly told him that the conversation wasn't going anywhere, he'd hurt my feelings and that I wasn't going to discuss it anymore right then. I then ignored him.

He got right up in my face and screamed over and over. When I walked away, he physically blocked my path twice.

Similar thing happened another time I tried to ignore and get away, using much the same language you suggest. Those both happened prior to this particular argument so, basically, I've stopped trying to end the conversations. It only makes him more angry and brings him very close to physical violence.

I'm sure there's something else underneath and, in calmer times, I'm usually able to kind of figure out what's really going on. In the moment, I'm usually too scared/panicked/struggling to keep up.

But I'll keep some of your advice in mind. Trying to get at the root of the problem in the moment might work? Though when I've tried the "This seems to really be upsetting you. What's really going on?" kind of approach, it's just gotten him more angry.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Randi Kreger]

It's good that you've tried these things. You have some experience. Trying them a few times means that you have collected data. It doesn't mean that they don't work.

Amytime you hold your partner accountable for his actions and act in a mature way and take care of yourself, EXPECT a "CHANGE BACK" action. This is also called a countermove.

Keep in mind when you are dealing with a pwBPD, you are dealing with a person with the emotional development of a 12-24 month old child. As with a child, you need to repeat the same thing over and over CONSISTENTLY EVERY TIME.

So what you're telling me, if I am hearing you correctly, is that you are in a situation where you have two chioces:

1. Be verbally and emotionally abused.
2. He will become physically violent and physically abuse you.

Do you feel these are your two options, or can you come up with any others? Do you have a family or a support system? Ask them for ideas. If what you are saying is true, you are experiencing domestic violence. Do you see any alternatives?

[Ozzie101]

Maybe I haven't tried them enough. You're right. Giving up after one or two times isn't necessarily a measure of it working or not. The fear of physical confrontation, though, makes me cautious to try things out multiple times. There have been times I've been able to be firm and he's backed down, but I really have to "read the room." It depends on his level of moodiness if he'll fizzle out or keep ramping up. The conversation I described was one where I felt like he might go over the top.

And, yes, I am experiencing domestic violence and am seeing a counselor for it. And I have a loving, supportive family, some of whom are aware of what's going on. But they don't really have any advice to give, since this is brand-new territory for them (as it is for me). I rely on my counselor for that.

He hasn't gotten physical. Well, blocking does count as physical, as does his breaking things, screaming in my face and saying things like "I really feel like hitting you right now." But he hasn't actually laid a hand on me. He swears he never would, but I don't know that I can really believe him.

[Randi Kreger]

If you don’t mind me asking, what does your therapist tell you about living with domestic violence? Does she tell you to leave or does she explore your options for leaving or something else?

[Ozzie101]

My therapist told me up-front that she never tells people to stay or to leave. That's always up to the client. Instead, she gives a safe space to process what's happening and gives safety tips and advice for whatever the client wants to do.

My H and I have had some very long, serious talks the last couple of days about what's been going on. It's actually pretty amazing that he's developing some real self-awareness through his therapy sessions. Twice now, he's had episodes where he's recognized what's going on and pulled himself out without my having to do anything.

Anyway, we set some "ground rules" -- even wrote them down -- for future serious discussions and arguments.

[Skip]

Once, when he was really worked up with something and got nasty, I calmly and firmly told him that the conversation wasn't going anywhere, he'd hurt my feelings and that I wasn't going to discuss it anymore right then. I then ignored him.

He got right up in my face and screamed over and over. When I walked away, he physically blocked my path twice.

Similar thing happened another time I tried to ignore and get away, using much the same language you suggest. Those both happened prior to this particular argument so, basically, I've stopped trying to end the conversations. It only makes him more angry and brings him very close to physical violence.

Ozzie, you mention these two incidents... .how often does this type of elevated aggression happened in your marriage? When was the last time you experienced anything like this?

I agree with your observations. Fighting back or appearing passive aggressive rarely works. Most members report the same experience you have had - its incendiary - things often escalate. When a person is dysregulating and in drive, they are functioning with their reptilian brain. There is a extinction pattern... .and if not provoked... .they will return to baseline.

Three things I would consider.

1. People tend to have a pattern of escalation. After a while you see how it occurs. The best tactic is to do descalating things in this early stages. Different things work with different people, but something as simple as saying "what you are concerned about is important, I agree we need to deal with it. my emotions are really cloudy now... .why don't we take a break, have dinner, and talk afterward".

2. Have a safety plan and way to exit without any attitude if things advance past the early stages... .feign illness, or say you are getting to upset to helpful and need a few minutes, walk the dog, run to the store before it closes... .

3. Wait for a time of calm, just as you did, and try to work together on an way to handle future situations.

My therapist told me up-front that she never tells people to stay or to leave. That's always up to the client. Instead, she gives a safe space to process what's happening and gives safety tips and advice for whatever the client wants to do.

Absolutely. You know it is a bad situation, but there are a 100 complicating reasons and reasons not to leave. Having someone with experience help you sort these complex issues and sort you options is very important.

Impulsive, unplanned departures or reuniting are where the greatest injuries occur.

[Ozzie101]

I can really only think of three of these elevated, violent incidents. The last was in mid-December.

A lot of things are in the open now. I confronted him about his behavior and the verbal/emotional abuse. He's in full apology mode now. That coincides with his therapy sessions, where he's finally clicking with his therapist and getting a lot of insight.

We talked a couple of nights ago and set some ground rules for discussions and arguments. No serious discussions when there's been alcohol (he put it together that it ramps him up and his P said it can do that in combination with the medication he's on). A safe word to stop escalating conversations. Etc.

It's the most thoughtful and self-aware I've seen him in months. My T is encouraged. She'd told me to tell him that if he ever got out of control and I felt unsafe, I would call the police. I didn't have a chance. He brought it up himself and made me promise to call. He's pretty horrified about what he did and said. Some of it he doesn't remember (black-out?) but he doesn't doubt me.

Interesting situation, really. I'm encouraged, but remaining watchful and on guard.

[Randi Kreger]

 I just wanted to apologize if I gave you some bad advice. I really did not realize the amount of domestic violence that was going on. I am not an expert in domestic violence. There is a Venn diagram of people with borderline and narcissistic disorder and domestic violence, there is an overlap, but I am not an expert in where they all overlap.

I would definitely defer to the people who are experts in domestic violence. I think when normal diffusion tools that would work normally don’t work on a consistent basis, something more serious is going on. At that point, it’s time to pull out the domestic violence literature.

But I could be wrong. You and Skip have been working together for a long time you know better than me. I do have to say that in all of your descriptions I don’t see any narcissism or borderline although I’m sure it must be there. I just have not seen any in the description. I would just be interested to know how it fits in there.

Anyway, forget all of that. I’m just concerned with how you’re doing. It sounds like he is making some progress. Is this part of the cycle of abuse, or is he really getting better? Are you familiar with the cycle of abuse? I hope that that’s not what’s going on. And that he really is having some self realization. I didn’t realize he was also a drinker. Obviously that complicates everything.

I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. Borderline and narcissism is hard enough. Adding alcohol to that adds on another layer. Adding on domestic violence to that is ... .unthinkable.

. I’m so sorry. You know we are always here, and if I can help you at all With some more lousy advice please reach out!

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Randi!

I'm sort of figuring things out as they go along. We do seem to be making a lot of progress. Only time will tell if this is a genuine awakening and change on his part or if it's just the honeymoon phase (yes, I'm familiar with the cycle). I will continue to see my DV therapist to go over what's happening and I'm being vigilant. So far, though, no red flags.

Also, he checked with his ex-wife (they were married for 11 years, dated several years before that) and his best friend of 25 years (they were roommates for several years). Both said he never had episodes like the ones I described, though he did get angry and could get into circular arguments. His psychiatrist has theorized that the medication he was on at the time could have played a part since rages are a rare but possible side effect. He's no longer taking those meds.

As I said, time will tell.