Aren't there some ethical issues there with the church that issues regarding the marriage are being discussed and at least one, most likely 2 parties to those marriages are being kept in the dark?

The light of day seems to generally be a good thing, especially in this day and age of (name your church scandal). 

I think you should give thought to approaching the clergy (are we talking ordained clergy here?) and ask if your marriage was indeed discussed and that you would like to be involved in the discussion.

I also get the vibe that these two (your wife and OM) are doing "semi-official" church functions... right?  Maybe being on committees and doing things like that... perhaps together.

Is that correct?

FF

If I were attending your church, I think I'd be creeped out by those two. It's impossible to completely hide it in the long run.

I worked in an office with a male boss. He was always pretty level headed and fair with all of us, mostly female co-workers. Married, had good boundaries but friendly. Then, a new female was hired and he changed. He seemed to distance himself from us and the two of them would "glance" at each other occasionally and we all knew it even though they tried to hide it. It wasn't just about him and her. It changed the dynamics between them and all of us. She wasn't "one of the gang" but was distant from us too.

I'd be willing to bet the other church members know more than they let on. I also think it creates changes in the relationships with others in the group. I wonder if anyone has left the church because of it. I'd be uncomfortable with them as group leaders.

Other church members have noticed something between the 2 of them and have said so to me. Not senior clergy but people involved in the activities my W gets involved in. It seems obvious to them. It's a small parish church and the senior clergy believe what they want to believe... .and what they want to believe is that they are just very good friends, both going through similar abusive relationship break ups and are there for each other in mutual platonic support for each other. There's a cause and effect thing going on here and they seem contented (because it suits) to believe effect rather than cause. It's far more appetising for them to believe a woman who on the face of things appears a perfectly respectable 'good' Christian, than someone whom they have had limited interactions with, who is male and who doesn't attend THAT church on a regular basis. Me being abusive and her being abused fits nicely into their 'model' of what abuse looks like. It shows a serious nativity on their part, however I am sure this is very common... .if you haven't experienced a unicorn, you likely don't believe they exist. We see on the boards all the time how BPD parents are able to make accusations and have authorities running around in circles for years investigating child abuse, and accusations of emotional and physical abuse which are unfounded.

CofE protocol stipulates that in the case of suspected abuse, no information is to be shared with the perpetrator or even get him/her to confirm the victims story. So you can see that from the Church's stance they're a bit bound by the 'trump' nature of the abuse claim to even loop me into any dialogue re other issues. I'm essentially shut out by that claim. Any attempt by me to raise awareness just validates the abuse claim first and foremost and little credence will be paid to an emotionally abusive man seeking to 'get his wife back in line.'

So... .I raise it to God and allow him to work his ways.   

You know me very well FF and you’re very right when it comes to my inaction about removing the muggle.

I spoke to the vicar at the time in mid 2017 (she has since left and been replaced), she seemed very keen to chat and very smiley and “you can only work on yourself”, but I got this feel when I was talking to her of “yeah yeah yeah, you’re trying to get me onside, tell me how things were, classic abuse play, I’ll grey rock you and tell you to do work on yourself... .you don’t have a clue what you’ve done to poor old enabler W.” Similarly when I’ve attempted to correct the narrative to others, I’ve got the same look... .“here we go, trying to twist stuff, correct the narrative, that’s what abusive people do”. So, frankly I’ve given up ‘correcting’, ‘enlightening’ ‘clarifying’ as ALL it did was further dig me deeper into my hole of looking, smelling and sounding like an abusove person... .because I was behaving like an abusive person would.

Also, the very start of that conversation is going to be a red flag for abuse... .“so how did you come across the knowledge of this private meeting to discuss private things between us, your W and OM?”... .“oh well I scraped her WhatsApp messages from the family computer”... .CONTROLLING... .ABUSIVE.

I have no cards, no chips and no credit. I have to accept my reality and work with that. Working with that in my mind means working with what I do have which is the ability to get my house in order, behave consistently impeccably and not be at all chaotic. She can’t do that... .

Conflict with someone that has a gun and proven she’s prepared to use it (to an extent... .we get to find out what that extent is) isn’t a fair fight when I have a water pistol... .so, the better route is Bruce Lee’s way... .the art of fighting without fighting. Every second she spends living a lie is another drop of acid bleeding through her own conscience.

Ephesians 4:1-3 (Listen)

4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Enabler

I'm not suggesting you "correct" or any of that.  I'm suggesting a conversation to "clarify" if what you believe happened/is happening... .is true.

There may or may not be a time for correcting.


How is noticing something of a "family computer" abusive? 

There is a more minor "thread" in your posting of accepting things as true that don't seem to be true when I start digging. 

It would be one thing if you bought a hacking tool and installed spyware on a device that was "hers"... .but... anything on a "family computer" is fair game.


Another example of stating something as "fact"... .that just isn't so.


 And again. 

You have chosen to do this.  You don't have to.

FF

Define success please.



I'm not either, although I lean very much towards it's not.  Like many things in life "it depends"... life is complicated... just like this situation.

That being said... .look at what just happened (consciously or unconscionably)... .the argument just shifted.

Before the messages were PROOF of abuse... .now the debate shifted to is it invasion of privacy.

I would advise to move away from these sideshow debates. 

You know... you have proof. 

"Enabler... .how do you know."

"I got on the family computer and saw messages."  (that's it... .no JADE... don't tell them about her breaking in your phone or other details.)  Family computer... you saw it.

Just the other day I read a dear abby about a daughter that share a computer with Dad.  Texts came up on computer proving an affair.  Then... she read more texts that were on the computer.

Dear abby didn't get after her or even mention "invasion of privacy".



Compare this to "success" above... .tie all this together please.


So... .don't fall for her projection.  Not really needed to talk about it.  In fact I would advise you not to.

Stick to what you know.





Yep... .so... which way is up and which way is digger deeper.

Seriously... .

I don't think that all these years of "enabling" an affair and "enabling" a church to "look the other way" has helped anyone.

Again... maybe I missed the "success".

Sorry man... not trying to beat you up here... .but trying to step by step walk through this mess with some rational thought.

FF

Empath, I don't resent her Church work, it's a good thing. I have been fully supportive of it practically and picking up other work that doesn't get done as a result. I resent the hypocrisy of it for sure. I have copies of some of the communication. I have shared some of this stuff with people and it seems like it just rotates back to "Well, but you were abusing her, and having that is evidence of your abusiveness". I want to ask people "what does that 'abuse' look like?" and maybe that should be my tact going forwards. I'd imagine it sounds something like this "She's afraid of you".

FF,

Success - this is a shifting benchmark but strictly speaking my constant definition of success is "Unimpeded access to our children, adequate financial resources to make a new life for myself and not have onerous ongoing financial liabilities towards her, children who are emotionally strong enough to not be broken by my W's disorder. My own mental health to be in order." Note there is nothing in there about my W, this is something I have way less control over. My success was more based on what I wanted to avoid, which was being divorced, having parental alienation  and having no resources with which to rebuild my life... .anything else was better. I count her going from "I definitely want a divorce" to "I've arrived at divorce and I realise my life is going to suck" as a small win. There's even talk of going to see friends together for a weekend in the coming months. I also count the fact that I'm probably the least anxious about my situation I've been in 7 years, I feel less confused even though the situation itself has become more confusing. I have an awesome relationship with my kids, which is now diamond solid.

Success was not - getting my wife to stop having an affair, getting the church to believe that she was having an affair, getting other people to believe that I was not abusive to her... .I think I would have counted these things as success points for me in 2016 but actually... .should I really measure success on things I cannot control in the slightest. I showed her the evidence I found on our PC in May16 and said "Do you think this appropriate communication with another man? I can't control you but I think you should think about what you're going to do about this." I spoke to the vicar Apr17 and said about the communication and the affair, she didn't attempt to do anything, or if she did it was unsuccessful. I told and showed friends the evidence and the affair May16-May18, they just said "she's not having an affair, she just doesn't love you, move on." I told her parents and her sister about the affair Sep16, they didn't want to listen and would just say things like "you didn't mean to abuse her!"... .I just can't base success on these things.

I don't know if you have experienced the same thing, I guess you have given your BC conflict... .but I find it astounding how quickly church folk abandon their Christian values in favour of suggesting we should all seek "happiness". The number of people who come up to me at the end of church services, pray with me and offer support, then quickly follow this "support" up with, "sometimes you just have to move on and get out"... .really? Really? Is that what we just heard the vicar say? Is that whats in the bible? Is that the extent of your commitment to your spouse? Maybe we should turn round to your husband or your wife and let them know that when things get tough you're going to be running out the door... .shall we do that now? I am appalled by how fickle people are.

I totally see how the argument gets shifted back to being about me rather than her or them... .but then that's how this works, she's not responsible for her feelings and actions, so all things do come back to me. Whilst I am doing things (anything she can twist to be 'abusive') she is able to push things back to being my fault (in her mind and the minds of others)... .whilst I do nothing she no longer has that outlet and the burden sits with her and she can no longer shift the guilt to me, and I am sure that other people are starting to see this now. My biggest Enabling has been to allow her/the church/our friends an excuse to look at me rather than her, I've been a wonderful distraction with my accusations and talk of PDs. My silence and natural kindness is FAR FAR more powerful.

Enabler

That would be a natural follow up question. Or saying something like I'm not sure how printing something off of a shared computer could be evidence of abuse.

I understand the resentment toward the hypocrisy of the church. In my case, there were several layers of people who didn't take a stand when they should have and even when there were legal obligations to do something. Some of that story is that the people who were willing to say something were cut out of the decision making process. I know because one of my friends was cut out.

You mentioned a semi-local leadership decision regarding your wife's pastoral assistant role. Is that on a diocesan level?

I would encourage you NOT to look at this through the lens of BPD... shame... and that kind of language or thought.

That people may or may not be ashamed of their actions is not the point.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions about what people decided to do based on results (putting your wife forward).  My advice is to remove assumptions and ask Christian leaders to clearly take a stand about how their values influence their decisions.

I would suggest you do it in writing and ask for a written response. 

Instead of making accusations, list out what you see as the facts and say this has raised some questions you would like clarified.

such as

"Given the evidence of an illicit relationship presented to the church, it makes me wonder about the value statement the church is apparently making by putting forth X as (whatever the title).  Please clarify.

I'm glad you clarified the second church issue.  So... they essentially go and sit in the pews and then go do their thing... .no leadership... right?  They are just part of the crowd?

Does church 2 know that your wife is leadership at church 1? 

Which church was involved with the "knock it off" conversation? 

Are both of these church's the same denomination?  Do they have the same "boss".  (pardon my ignorance here... .Baptists don't do church hierarchy... .it basically stops at Deacons/church vote.)

So... .I'm learning much more about Enablers story. 

Why does the family not attend church together?  So... .Sunday evenings... .wouldn't the family go to church together?  Why not take your kids and go to church... sit with Mommy... .let OM figure it what he is going to do.

A distant second would be not being available for childcare on Sunday evening.

Do you kids know about OM?

New information here... a lot to ponder.

FF

That's correct as far as I know.

I don't know if church 2 knows about leadership role at church 1. Church 2 made the 'pack it in' call which was described by OM like being "told off like a little school boy". I've been to a Sunday morning service once but never been in the evening with her (and him). Both churches are church of England so 'report' to the same diocese Bishop. However, the 2 churches are at polar opposite ends of the evangelical spectrum, one being a sleepy village very traditional church (church 1) and the other being a very charismatic modern church (church 2). Church 2 has a flavour of interpreting the bible as you wish, and how you feel, which kinda played into the 2 of them making their own pick n mix interpretations and inferring meaning from scripture. The talk I heard was very powerful and emotive, however, and maybe I wasn't in a good place given I was aware of the 'relationship' when I went there with W, OM and his W and family, but I took umbrage over the speakers point which said "Science doesn't attempt to understand the why, only the how, only God can explain the why." I thought this was a bit of a dangerous comment to make on a Sunday morning, since people have been having the science vs religion argument for years and I'm not sure this chap was overly qualified to make that philosophical call. 

Long story, I go to church 3. The church we were married in and all 3 of our kids were Christened at. W unilaterally decided 3.5yrs ago that she wanted to go to church 1 (local) for the kids as they had friends there. I didn't like the conservative vibe of that church, nor did I like the parishioners who seemed to be more keen on polishing the church artefacts than making people welcome. Church 3 know EVERYTHING and have been very supportive/challenging over the last few years, I suspect that church 3 has spoken to church 1 as they are in neighbouring parishes. Church 3 were very surprised about the pastoral assistant role and lack of intervention by church 1.

Church 2's Sunday evening service runs from 18:30-21:15, my kids are 10/8/5 so they need to be in bed way before that. TBH, not sure they have much interest in it either. 

They know OM, they haven't been told what I know about the inappropriate relationship. However, they are not foolish and see what they see. I have told them in no uncertain terms that I do not like OM, because he has made some accusations against me and said that I was abusive to them (kids). He has come up in conversations about how to avoid people you don't get on with, how some people are just rotten and they are best left to be poisonous away from you. I have said to my W that "I do not want ANY of my children to spend ANY time with that man, because I find him morally reprehensible, manipulative and he clearly has certain warped views about me." Thus far my W has respected that after the event that prompted me to make that statement.

FF, I do not see the merits in attempting to sabotage something that is important to my W... .the pastoral work. I am very very sure that God has his hand in this work and she is being put to good use, but also that through this work she is being exposed to things that are likely to enlighten her to her own issues. For example, the pastoral assistant role is primarily in a local women's prison. Prisons are riddled with people with emotional control disorders. She is confronted by less fortunate mirror images of herself weekly, confronts people who are suicidal, self harm and heinously depressed. I know her own personal experiences offer her a unique insight into these individuals struggles. She goes on mental health courses, she goes on courses about DV and emotional abuse. I believe that God is not only working to use her, but also to enlighten her... .and me.

A reoccurring message she received time and time again was to "Sanctify herself for Gods work". I think she took this (as a pwBPD would) that she needed to sanctify herself of me. With an inability to self reflect, and having a starting narrative of I'm perfect/I can't be wrong the message must have meant to cleanse herself of the bad things in her life i.e. me... .NOT... .OM, heavy drinking, bad language, selfish behaviour, passive aggressive behaviour, impulsivity, hypocritical lifestyle, emotional neglect of the kids, excessive socialising and HER CORE SHAME. from what I can see, she has done EVERYTHING to sanctify herself, other than sanctify HERSELF. She can't, it's too painful for her. 

Hope dies last... .but I believe that it's becoming harder and harder to ignore the more I detach from the rollercoaster and SHOW her what love looks like to the kids and others.

Enabler

She is equivalent to a deacon in the CofE church. She does deacon like work in Church 1, and in a local prison. She is on the parish council which deals with administrative things related to the churches activities. So technically 2x roles, 1x leadership/support function, 1x pastoral care and guidance role in prison.

I need to consider your points. My current thinking is around her pastoral work being 'good', so unlike the robber, even though it is in essence hypocritical when seen in parallel with her life away from church, including OM. No one is without sin are they? She is searching for meaning and finds meaning in her Christian work, this is good (in my opinion). Her ability to control her behaviour adhere to the bibles teachings outside that work is something else. I am sure that somewhere deep down she knows what she is doing is inappropriate since she's been told and goes to great lengths to conceal it... .would shining a light on it make her more likely or less likely to stop, I think less likely to stop and more likely to feel justified in her classification of me as abusive. There's an interplay between her secular life and her Christian life where she is neither all one or other thus picks instruction from one or the other depending on what suits her narrative.  Someone will tell her what she wants to hear so she will gravitate towards that. She will be judged more harshly as she 'should' know better, and she 'should' know this, and I believe she does know this, but these are the consequences she has to bare.

Enabler

I do see this investment yes.

I invest(ed) in it because feeling = fact. She feels and therefore tells other people that I am abusive. Other people encourage this narrative without questioning "what that looks like?" or "why might he have said that?" or "what were the circumstances behind that?" For the most, people can say what they like and there's little in the way of consequences, especially when it appears that almost all of them are nice as pie to my face, including her parents... .I for one couldn't imagine being at all friendly with my daughters abuser. Other peoples advice, which she is very responsive to, is based on her emotional expression of the facts... .most people don't differentiate between facts and emotional depiction of peoples perception of facts... .that's what the courts are for. Different people cry over different things at a very simplistic level.

My T questioned in my first session why I used the term abuse, he found it grossly unhelpful. I do not believe I have abused my wife or my kids in any sense of the word. But it's not what I believe or don't believe that is going to determine whether or not this D keys pushed over the proverbial cliff... .but at the same time I am not in control of that other than ensuring I don't put myself in a position where any of my behaviour could be construed as abusive, controlling whatever else she believes I do. I like my new way of operating, it's way way way more centred and less chaotic and I feel minimal desire to rescue.

Enabler

So... .has this worked?  She now tells people you are not abusive since you have made this change?

FF

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