Estrangment from stepchildren

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Some back story:

I have recently begun to realize that my husband of 9 years is possibly BPD. I would characterize his BPD as rather mild, but it is no less difficult to deal with. He has two children from a prior marriage, twins who are 14 years old, who up until last year, lived with us in a 50-50 custody agreement with his ex-wife. Due to (what I believe to be) his BPD, the children decided they no longer wanted to live with him and have been living with their mother, visiting us every other weekend. He was verbally abusive to them, and at times emotionally abusive as well. I completely understand their desire to live with their mother. We currently see them every other weekend. It has been an uneasy situation. For the most part, he controls his temper when they are around, and does not direct his anger at them. However, he is always demoralized before and after they come, and complains that he feels betrayed and abandoned by them, and feels little to no connection to them.

It has been an incredibly difficult year. The first couple of months after they left it was a lot of drama. We tried family therapy, but it became very obvious that the therapist would not allow my husband to do co-joint therapy with the kids until he sought out his own therapy. He started therapy but stopped because he did not trust the therapist. It was not a good fit. He felt that the therapist was judging him and had very little compassion or empathy for him. We then tried group DBT (with him in the parents group and them in the teen group), but he felt that it was worthless because he had no chance of practicing the skills since we did not see the kids frequently enough.

Last night his ex-wife came over and said that his kids no longer want to do the every other weekend sleepovers. They want to determine when and how they see their father. The kids have been in therapy themselves and now they believe that their self-esteem is suffering because of the current visitation. Essentially, the ex-wife said that they want to determine when they see their father. The kids feel that their father's decision to quit group DBT demonstrates that he is unwilling to change. They complained to their mother that they feel abandoned by him.

Both he and I believe that the only way forward is family therapy. We both believe that if we allow the kids to determine when they see their father, things will never get better. In fact, I think they will get worse. It will be strained and awkward when we do see them, and every painful interaction will just lead to the inevitable conclusion that they want to cut off all contact with their father. They feel abandoned by their father, and I can already see what will happen: the less and less they see him, the greater the chasm between them, and the greater the hurt they all feel.

So we are at a stalemate: they (the kids, their mother, the therapists) won't allow their father to do family therapy unless he sees an individual therapist, and he won't see an individual therapist unless they do family therapy.

I do not know what to do. I want my husband to go to therapy--for his sake. He is living half a life. He is miserable and unhappy and I don't understand how he would rather live in this miserable state than get the help he needs. He is on the brink of losing his children forever, and he feels that he is powerless to do anything about it. I told him that he has a choice--to see an individual therapist. I believe he needs to see someone completely unconnected to the family therapist that he can trust. I do not believe that things will get better with the kids until he starts to deal with his own problems. I do not know how to convince him of this.

What do I do?

[creampuff]

Some back story:

I have recently begun to realize that my husband of 9 years is possibly BPD. I would characterize his BPD as rather mild, but it is no less difficult to deal with. He has two children from a prior marriage, twins who are 14 years old, who up until last year, lived with us in a 50-50 custody agreement with his ex-wife. Due to (what I believe to be) his BPD, the children decided they no longer wanted to live with him and have been living with their mother, visiting us every other weekend. He was verbally abusive to them, and at times emotionally abusive as well. I completely understand their desire to live with their mother. We currently see them every other weekend. It has been an uneasy situation. For the most part, he controls his temper when they are around, and does not direct his anger at them. However, he is always demoralized before and after they come, and complains that he feels betrayed and abandoned by them, and feels little to no connection to them.

It has been an incredibly difficult year. The first couple of months after they left it was a lot of drama. We tried family therapy, but it became very obvious that the therapist would not allow my husband to do co-joint therapy with the kids until he sought out his own therapy. He started therapy but stopped because he did not trust the therapist. It was not a good fit. He felt that the therapist was judging him and had very little compassion or empathy for him. We then tried group DBT (with him in the parents group and them in the teen group), but he felt that it was worthless because he had no chance of practicing the skills since we did not see the kids frequently enough.

Last night his ex-wife came over and said that his kids no longer want to do the every other weekend sleepovers. They want to determine when and how they see their father. The kids have been in therapy themselves and now they believe that their self-esteem is suffering because of the current visitation. Essentially, the ex-wife said that they want to determine when they see their father. The kids feel that their father's decision to quit group DBT demonstrates that he is unwilling to change. They complained to their mother that they feel abandoned by him.

Both he and I believe that the only way forward is family therapy. We both believe that if we allow the kids to determine when they see their father, things will never get better. In fact, I think they will get worse. It will be strained and awkward when we do see them, and every painful interaction will just lead to the inevitable conclusion that they want to cut off all contact with their father. They feel abandoned by their father, and I can already see what will happen: the less and less they see him, the greater the chasm between them, and the greater the hurt they all feel.

So we are at a stalemate: they (the kids, their mother, the therapists) won't allow their father to do family therapy unless he sees an individual therapist, and he won't see an individual therapist unless they do family therapy.

I do not know what to do. I want my husband to go to therapy--for his sake. He is living half a life. He is miserable and unhappy and I don't understand how he would rather live in this miserable state than get the help he needs. He is on the brink of losing his children forever, and he feels that he is powerless to do anything about it. I told him that he has a choice--to see an individual therapist. I believe he needs to see someone completely unconnected to the family therapist that he can trust. I do not believe that things will get better with the kids until he starts to deal with his own problems. I do not know how to convince him of this.

What do I do?

[worriedStepmom]

Hi creampuff.  It's obvious that you care greatly for your husband and want to fix this, but you don't have the power.  It is in his hands.

I am stepmom to DS11, who has a uBPDmom.    Last year, my H got primary custody of SD11 and put her in therapy. Since she's been in therapy, SD has learned to set boundaries and to differentiate her needs from her mother's needs.  This has led her mother to feel abandoned and to fear that SD is being alienated.  Her mother has a hard time feeling connected if she is not in daily contact with SD, but SD feels pressured if she *has* to talk to mom on mom's schedule.

uBPDmom has demanded family therapy repeatedly.  SD's therapist does not recommend this.  The problem is not that SD and her mom cannot communicate well.  The problem is that her mom has a mental illness that is not properly managed, and SD does not have the coping skills to deal with it. This is not a problem that can be fixed together, because it is not SD's job to help mom manage her illness, and mom doesn't have the ability to teach coping skills.

In our case, mom demands family therapy because mom does not understand what the problems are.   She does not see that her behaviors are problematic - she thinks that if SD would only understand mom's reasonings and believe that mom truly loves her, then their relationship will be just fine.  This is a fantasy which is a product of her disordered thinking.

Our solution was to have SD work with her therapist to identify specific behaviors that she wants mom to change.  The T then relayed this list to uBPDmom.  He also sent the list to uBPDmom's new therapist, and my H wrote a letter to uBPDmom's new T to detail problematic parenting behaviors he had seen from uBPDmom over the previous 6 months.  uBPDmom is finally getting serious about working on herself, and her relationship with SD11 has improved a great deal in the last 2 months.

Your H has three options.
1) Go to court and force the children to visit according to the custody order.  Potential consequence: their mother demands a psychological evaluation of him and/or the boys' T testifies about whether the T thinks he is fit for custody.  He runs the risk of losing a great deal.
2) Find a new therapist and go regularly and actively work to fix himself.
3) Do nothing and wait for the boys' mother to agree to family therapy (which is unlikely to happen) and paint himself as the victim in the meantime.

[creampuff]

Thank you for the reply. It has helped me clarify my thinking.

The problem is that her mom has a mental illness that is not properly managed, and SD does not have the coping skills to deal with it. This is not a problem that can be fixed together, because it is not SD's job to help mom manage her illness, and mom doesn't have the ability to teach coping skills.

Yes, this is the problem as I see it too.

Your H has three options.
1) Go to court and force the children to visit according to the custody order.  Potential consequence: their mother demands a psychological evaluation of him and/or the boys' T testifies about whether the T thinks he is fit for custody.  He runs the risk of losing a great deal.
2) Find a new therapist and go regularly and actively work to fix himself.
3) Do nothing and wait for the boys' mother to agree to family therapy (which is unlikely to happen) and paint himself as the victim in the meantime.

Option 2 is the best, but how do I convince him to do that? I do not think he will go to court. He knows that he will lose. I also do not see 3 happening either.

[worriedStepmom]

It's hard to convince anyone who isn't ready to see a therapist that it is time to go, and it's much harder with a disorder like BPD, because it is ego-syntonic (meaning their actions align with their personality).

My H has encouraged his exW to seek out therapy for a long time, but she never went more than a few sessions before quitting.  She spiraled badly after H got primary custody and someone in her life pointed out that H's court documents pretty much alleged that she was an unfit mother.  After about 6 months, she finally realized that H wasn't going to agree to family therapy, he wasn't going to agree to give her more time, and he wasn't going to agree to fire SD's therapist.  

Right about that time, SD's T told uBPDmom very very clearly that she was the problem in this relationship.  A month later, uBPDmom checked herself into an intensive inpatient program for depression.  I'm not sure whether they gave her good meds or managed to say something that resonated with her, but she's been seeing a new therapist since then and she's been more stable. There's still lots of crazymaking, but she's definitely trying.

Does your H recognize that there is a problem with his behavior?  Can you see the problematic behaviors?  How badly does he want to see his sons - is there an overwhelming need to see them, or is he on the other end of the spectrum where he wants to walk away to make the pain lessen?

[ForeverDad]

One perspective I've learned from court is that it does not try to fix a poorly behaving parent.  Maybe it will go so far as to order Anger Management if things get dicey, but that's about it.  Court deals with "What Is".  Maybe the person will get the message eventually, maybe not.

In general, that's what we have to do too, deal with "What Is".  Though we can't fix the person, we can still give support if the other person is truly making the effort to improve.

Do you think the kids would do better with shorter weekend visits?  Do you think the kids would be agreeable to continue with the alternate holidays schedule if they do cut back on the alternate weekends?  I'm thinking that you could help turn a downside (less frequent or shorter visits) into an upside (focus on making the time they do visit as enjoyable as possible)?  I'm thinking... trips to parks, hikes, river canoeing, campgrounds, amusement parks, ball games, etc would help make their time around dad less of a stress on the kids, especially if some of their friends came along too.  That way dad gets to be around them but they'll be less likely to feel they're 'stuck' with dad.

[Panda39]

I know you are looking for solutions to fix this situation and I'm going to throw out another one that you might not like.  That is to let this go and respect the kids choice to see their dad when they choose. No one is saying they never want to see their dad again, only that they want to determine what that looks like.

I'm on these boards because my significant other has an undiagnosed BPDxw and they share 2 daughters both adults now D22 & D18. But back in 2015 when they were 14 & 18 their mother did some really bad stuff that really hurt/damaged both girls and at that time D22 essentially went no contact with her mother and D18 went low contact (this creates it's own set of problems).  What my SO and I have done is support the girls in their choices to see/not see, text/not text, talk to/not talk to their mother.   

These relationships between a BPD Parent and their kids are complicated you might consider reading some of the posts on the Children of BPD Parents Board to get another perspective...the perspective of the kids.

I also recognize that for you to take this position it will likely cause problems because folks with BPD often think in black and white terms so if your not with him, you are against him.  However, I just thought this option should be put out there too.

Panda39

[creampuff]

My husband recognizes that he has problems, and he has great shame about the harm he has inflicted on them. So much so that I worry it is part of the reason he's so resistant. He has been to therapists in the past, and generally is not averse to therapy, but he does not trust the current therapists (I say therapists because they have an individual therapist and they have their group DBT therapist.) It is mostly because he felt judged by them and made him "the problem" when he sees that the whole family is dysfunctional. They do not see him as a person but rather as "the problem" to be fixed.

Truthfully, I feel like I am the only one in this family ( and I include the kids, their mother, and my husband) who wants to resolve things. And I am done. I cannot make people want to work out their problems. I am tired of being in the middle too. I am the one who plans the weekend trips and events and I'm just exhausted from it all.

Would the kids be better with shorter weekend visits? Hard to say. The truth is that I do not believe that they want to see their father at all. He has made many overtures to them that they have spurned. I believe we are in what John Gottman would call "negative sentiment override," where even positive interactions are seen negatively.

I think that with time, I may be able to convince him to go to therapy, but I do not think making it a stick to beat him into submission will work. I am currently reading, "I'm Not Sick, I Don't Need Help", and on Wednesday I'm seeing my own therapist to help me cope with all of the stress.

Currently he is more on the other end of the spectrum--he would rather walk away and make the pain lesson. I know him, and I know that he will suffer no matter what.

[ForeverDad]

A side question, how is your relationship with him?  Do you have a counselor too to help you keep an objective outlook?  Of course, the peer support here is excellent too.  I ask because most of us got into — and stayed in — our relationships longer than many others would have done so.  We're people whose good qualities of caring, helping and supporting can be used and abused by someone with serious acting-out disordered perceptions.  We can help and support but if we stray too far into fixing territory we can get too enmeshed in the no-win scenarios.

[livednlearned]

He is on the brink of losing his children forever, and he feels that he is powerless to do anything about it.

He likely feels powerless, period. The mandate to get individual therapy might feel like control, so he pushes back because it protects him from experiencing overwhelming shame (for reasons he may not understand).

He may not be ready.

I would let him experience what happens next when he makes the choices he does (including not doing anything) since the alternative is only likely to make him dig in his heels further. 

[worriedStepmom]

I would let him experience what happens next when he makes the choices he does (including not doing anything) since the alternative is only likely to make him dig in his heels further. 

This is all that you can do.  You can't educate or reason your husband into getting help for himself, because he does not think he is the problem.  From what you say, he will dislike any therapist he sees, because a competent T who knows the whole story will focus on what your H can fix, not on the changes that H wants to see others make.  This is very very common with individuals with BPD.

My SD11 tells me often that she feels really sad for her mom, because she knows that her mom is in a lot of emotional pain.  I tell said that I am sad for her mom also...as well as sad for SD, because it is hard to love someone who is in pain and know that you can't make them get better. 

In that vein, I do feel for you, because you are in an impossible place.  You love a man who is creating chaos for himself and has no ability to recognize that - and whose actions have harmed his sons.  You also love two boys who need to protect themselves ... but that method is further hurting the man you love. 

I'm very glad that you are seeing a therapist for yourself.  Your only real power in this situation is to create and enforce boundaries around yourself from any damaging effects of your H's emotional mood swings.

Does he treat you the same way he treats his sons?  Verbal and emotional abuse?

[creampuff]

Foreverdad: How is my relationship with him? Most of the time it is good. I would describe his BPD as rather mild.  When he dysregulates, most of the time I can handle it, unless he triggers me, which is why I'm going to see a therapist. He is not verbally abusive or emotionally abusive to me, because I will not tolerate it, and when he gets pissy, I call him on it. He almost always apologizes to me. Our fights are actually fairly minimal, and about stupid and petty things. But they are always about my triggers. He can be manipulative, however, and I have been fairly good at confronting his manipulations. Last night, when we were discussing things, he reminded me that I had sent the therapist an email that he didn't want me to send. he believes that the email prejudiced the kids' therapist. I told him, "please don't throw that in my face. What's done is done, and there is no going back from it." He said, "but you haven't apologized for it," and I said, "because I do not believe what I did was wrong. You may disagree, but I'm not apologizing for something that I do not believe was wrong."

And I agree, WorriedStepmom, that he will probably find reasons to dislike his therapist. His ex-wife basically said as much in our meeting with her.

I have thought about talking to the kids myself. I understand what position they are in. I think they are feeling that if their father loved them enough, he would get the help he needs. But we all know that we cannot "make" anyone happy. We cannot give others a will to live, or a purpose to live. We all know that that has to come from within ourselves; that it cannot be external. It is a very difficult lesson to learn. My mother was depressive and suicidal for a good decade, and has struggled with mental illness on and off for 30 years. I was 19 when things got really bad. I thought back then that I was responsible for her happiness. I've learned otherwise.

Livedinlearned: He does feel powerless. He admits as much. And when he tries to portray himself as the victim, I try to remind him that he has a choice, even if he doesn't like it. I agree that perhaps he has to live with the consequences for awhile and see if anything changes.

Ya'll  have been super helpful, thank you.