Confirmed that he is still talking to ex

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am so shaken right now.  I have been suspecting for the well over a year that my SO has been in regular contact with his ex since she walked out on her husband just over a year ago.  Of course, I am constantly told that I must "stop imagining things" and "stop making thing ups" in my mind.  Then there is the classic "why do you do this to yourself?"

I have another phone and number from which I have been monitoring when he is on a chat app.  I often see them on at the same time.  I've wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it's just way too often that he comes online, goes off and seconds later she's on and so it goes back and forth.

The weekend before last I was in the bedroom while he stood in the hallway.  I could see his shadow against the wall holding his phone.  I heard the familiar "pop" sound when a message has been send and then the second "pop" to indicate that it's been delivered.  So I checked her out and saw her coming online.  Shortly after I heard a message alert from his phone and she went offline and he came on.  This went back and forth 3 times.

That day he told me that he was going to meet some guys for a sport thing.  He always invites me with, but not on that day.  He just told me he will be going.  After the messages from her he suddenly said that he won't be going out after all.  I knew something was up.  He rarely has these get togethers anymore with these guys and won't say no when invited - least of all because he felt the 15 minute drive he often makes is too far!  I suspect he was going to meet up with her but that something came up and she had to cancel.

I haven't told him that I monitor their online activity.  However, I have asked more than once if he is still in contact with her and he swears up and down that he isn't.  Less than a month ago he went to an event where it was almost certain her family would be at too.  Even though I am part of the club that participated in the event, he did not want me joining him for it!  Took me a week or so before I confronted him and told him I know he didn't want me there because of her.  He lied and said none of her family were there - then I found photos on the event's FB of him with her father.  Three photos in total.  I know she was there even though she wasn't in the photos.  He then confessed a day after his denial that, yes, her father was there and he doesn't know why he lied.  I do know - he forgot he posed for photos.  Idiot.

Sorry this is long.  I always feel I have to give some background to show that I am not making things up in my mind as he keeps telling me.

Last night I didn't sleep at "our" home and I am not staying there tonight either.  He did come over for dinner here though.  When he got in his car to leave he checked his messages and what do I see?  Her photo icon 3rd or 4th in line of people he last exchanged messages with.  I know he realized he screwed up but hoped I didn't see.  He immediately grabbed my hand, looked in my eyes, smiled all innocently and was weirdly quiet.  Waiting for me to say something.  I then asked "what".  He replied "nothing, just love you".

So there it is.  He will tell me I am crazy if I confront him.  He always tells me I am crazy and have an over active imagination - but I know what I saw.

How do I handle this.  I feel I can't pretend I didn't see what I saw.  I know that before she got involved with my SO she had already had two affairs with married men - and those are just the one's we know about.  In other words, she is not conflicted about sneaking around with and having sex with married men.

As a side note.  Over a year ago I called her.  First and only time.  I asked her if she wants him and she was all "oh no, I wish you two love and light and all things wonderful!"  Well, I saw that he had chatted to her 3 days prior to my call.  When I called her I said it's about "John" (shall we say).  She asked "John who?"  I said "John Jones" and her pathetic response was "John ... Jo ... nes?  Uh.  Oh John Jones!"  Like really?

I've been suspecting for the past 3 months that his lack of enthusiasm about us moving in together (which was his idea) is linked to this woman.  Now I believe it more than ever.

How do I handle this?

[Perdita]

I am so shaken right now.  I have been suspecting for the well over a year that my SO has been in regular contact with his ex since she walked out on her husband just over a year ago.  Of course, I am constantly told that I must "stop imagining things" and "stop making thing ups" in my mind.  Then there is the classic "why do you do this to yourself?"

I have another phone and number from which I have been monitoring when he is on a chat app.  I often see them on at the same time.  I've wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it's just way too often that he comes online, goes off and seconds later she's on and so it goes back and forth.

The weekend before last I was in the bedroom while he stood in the hallway.  I could see his shadow against the wall holding his phone.  I heard the familiar "pop" sound when a message has been send and then the second "pop" to indicate that it's been delivered.  So I checked her out and saw her coming online.  Shortly after I heard a message alert from his phone and she went offline and he came on.  This went back and forth 3 times.

That day he told me that he was going to meet some guys for a sport thing.  He always invites me with, but not on that day.  He just told me he will be going.  After the messages from her he suddenly said that he won't be going out after all.  I knew something was up.  He rarely has these get togethers anymore with these guys and won't say no when invited - least of all because he felt the 15 minute drive he often makes is too far!  I suspect he was going to meet up with her but that something came up and she had to cancel.

I haven't told him that I monitor their online activity.  However, I have asked more than once if he is still in contact with her and he swears up and down that he isn't.  Less than a month ago he went to an event where it was almost certain her family would be at too.  Even though I am part of the club that participated in the event, he did not want me joining him for it!  Took me a week or so before I confronted him and told him I know he didn't want me there because of her.  He lied and said none of her family were there - then I found photos on the event's FB of him with her father.  Three photos in total.  I know she was there even though she wasn't in the photos.  He then confessed a day after his denial that, yes, her father was there and he doesn't know why he lied.  I do know - he forgot he posed for photos.  Idiot.

Sorry this is long.  I always feel I have to give some background to show that I am not making things up in my mind as he keeps telling me.

Last night I didn't sleep at "our" home and I am not staying there tonight either.  He did come over for dinner here though.  When he got in his car to leave he checked his messages and what do I see?  Her photo icon 3rd or 4th in line of people he last exchanged messages with.  I know he realized he screwed up but hoped I didn't see.  He immediately grabbed my hand, looked in my eyes, smiled all innocently and was weirdly quiet.  Waiting for me to say something.  I then asked "what".  He replied "nothing, just love you".

So there it is.  He will tell me I am crazy if I confront him.  He always tells me I am crazy and have an over active imagination - but I know what I saw.

How do I handle this.  I feel I can't pretend I didn't see what I saw.  I know that before she got involved with my SO she had already had two affairs with married men - and those are just the one's we know about.  In other words, she is not conflicted about sneaking around with and having sex with married men.

As a side note.  Over a year ago I called her.  First and only time.  I asked her if she wants him and she was all "oh no, I wish you two love and light and all things wonderful!"  Well, I saw that he had chatted to her 3 days prior to my call.  When I called her I said it's about "John" (shall we say).  She asked "John who?"  I said "John Jones" and her pathetic response was "John ... Jo ... nes?  Uh.  Oh John Jones!"  Like really?

I've been suspecting for the past 3 months that his lack of enthusiasm about us moving in together (which was his idea) is linked to this woman.  Now I believe it more than ever.

How do I handle this?

[Bnonymous]

I'm sorry this is happening to you. I'm sorry you are being gaslighted about it - I know how hard that is. 

I am in a different situation. My partner was seeing someone else behind my back, dumped me for her a couple of weeks ago, and now, suddenly, I am the ex.

Coming at it from that perspective...

I think your best bet is to show him understanding that his past is an important part of him which you accept. I think, if you can do that, there is a better chance that it will stay in the past. "Your past is important. It helped bring you to where you are today and turn you into the man I love here and now. I know that I am your present and your future. But your past matters too and, if you have any unresolved issues or feelings about it, I want you to know that it's okay to talk to me about these."

I think that's the best way to go. But I recognise that I might be biased.

Do you trust that you are his present and future?

[Perdita]

Bnonymous, thanks for the reply. 

You know ... they broke up back in 2010!  How much time does he need to resolve things with someone he dated for not even 2 years?  Meanwhile we've been together for 6 (got together 3 years after it ended between them). 

After she left her husband he wanted to meet up with her.  I hated this because I knew he was still obsessed (he still denies it), but I agreed.  I told him that they are to go to some franchise coffee shop, that I want to know exactly where and when and he is to call me right before and right after.

He ended up taking her to a romantic beach front restaurant in the country.  The same one I had asked him a week before if he'd please take me.  He didn't call and refused to take any of my calls.  After their date - it was definitely a date! - he told me he thinks she is rediculous and not for him.  He said that I am the one for him.

About 2 weeks after this I decided, screw this, and couldn't resist checking his phone.  I listened to 2 voice messages he send her after their meeting.  The one right after he send me messages telling me that she's rediculous and I am the one for him.  In the first message he bloody told her that he admires her for walking out on her husband and that he is going to have to decide if he is willing to "put up with" me any longer or not!  He then went on to tell her that I have a "brain condition"!  What the heck?  There was also a message he send the following day sounding like a pathetic love sick teenager, telling her she's special and trying to sound sexy by singing part of a song! 

I have asked him again as recently as last week if he wants to leave.  If he wants to see other women.  All those kinds of questions and options.  He said no and denied having anything to do with her.  What a liar he is and she is no better.

What is worse is that the other day he send me a message that read "I love you. Thanks for always being there for me."  I felt then and still do that it was meant for her.  He never sends me messages like that.

[Bnonymous]

Ugh! 

Yes, he should be over it by now. But some people with BPD have great difficulty in letting things go.

This is a very hard situation. He is gaslighting you terribly and that is likely to have serious effects on your confidence and mental health. It can get so that, even though we're not crazy when they start saying it, it ends up driving us that way (self-fulfilling prophecy style).

Do you have trusted people who know you both and can help keep you grounded and remind you this isn't all in your head? That can be really important.

[Perdita]

This is a very hard situation. He is gaslighting you terribly and that is likely to have serious effects on your confidence and mental health. It can get so that, even though we're not crazy when they start saying it, it ends up driving us that way (self-fulfilling prophecy style).

I swear it's only on here that people get what you just wrote above.  It's crazy making when you know things to be true but constantly gaslighted into doubting yourself.

Do you have trusted people who know you both and can help keep you grounded and remind you this isn't all in your head? That can be really important.

There is one woman, but I don't trust her.  She can swing from telling me he is a very disturbed person that I am better off without to telling me minutes later that I am being nuts.  Then she goes back to telling me about all the trouble he caused in her previous relationship due to his emotional instability. 

The above said. This woman did tell me a week ago that my SO was in contact with his ex several months before she left her husband and that she and her then bf had a massive argument due to phone discussions her bf and my SO were having late at night about how he can sneak around with this ex. 

Truth is I feel I have no one I can lean on and talk to.  This board has been my only outlet over the years.  I feel so alone and isolated.

[Bnonymous]

There is one woman, but I don't trust her. 

Then, my advice is, don't talk to her about it. Talking to someone you feel you can't altogether trust can be worse than not talking to anyone. It can end up fueling the self-doubt.

Truth is I feel I have no one I can lean on and talk to.  This board has been my only outlet over the years.  I feel so alone and isolated.

Then keep talking to us. We're here and we get it. I completely understand how alone you must feel at the moment (I feel that too) but you're not alone - we're here and we're listening and we get it.

[Perdita]

Bnonymous, thank you for that. 

I agree about that woman.  I constantly question her motives and her interest in our r/s.  Sometimes  I think she wants us to break up because she blames my SO for the failure of her previous r/s.  I think he did play a part, but the thing is she blames everyone.  My gut tells me she wants revenge and I will just be collateral damage.

Once again, I see my SO and his ex are both online right now.  :-(

[AskingWhy]

Perdita, I am so sorry this is happening. You must be indeed heartbroken.  Your SO is having an affair.

It's common for pwBPD to triangulate others into their twisted notions of relationships.  My uBPD does this with his adult children, especially his daughters.  It becomes a perverse version of Electra complex on steroids. He talks to them on the phone or in person with a sappy, syrupy voice.  Sometimes he will actually show up at their workplace (one works in a restaurant), wait to be served and talk to them for a moment, and then just longingly gaze at them.  It's very creepy.  When he talks to them, he goes into another room and starts the sappy talk like they are mistresses.  

I suspect pwBPD need validation at all times, and when they have split their partners black, they run to others for validation.  My H regularly splits me black, then goes to his children to complaint about me.  It's very unhealthy.  One D actually called me to blast me for "mistreating and abusing" her father!

Keep your wits about you and understand it's nothing you did to cause your SO to go to this woman.  I know it's shattering to your self confidence.  (Imagine having your own SDs as your H's mistresses.  I was devastated when they demanded he choose between them and me.)  Be strong and start determining boundaries.

[Bnonymous]

Your SO is having an affair.

I don't think any of us can be sure of that, askingwhy. It's a possibility and something Perdita may perhaps need to prepare herself for emotionally. But it's not a certainty. It seems pretty certain that her SO is talking to his ex and lying about it. It sounds likely that he was, indeed, planning to meet up with the ex and may be doing that. But whether it's actually a full-blown affair or not is anyone's guess at this stage.

What's your gut feeling on this, Perdita? Do you think it's an actual affair?

[Perdita]

It's common for pwBPD to triangulate others into their twisted notions of relationships.

He has been pulling the triangulation thing from the get go.  Of course, it took me an entire year to even figure out that he has BPD and even after that it still took a long time to truly understand how they operate.


 

My uBPD does this with his adult children, especially his daughters.  It becomes a perverse version of Electra complex on steroids. He talks to them on the phone or in person with a sappy, syrupy voice.  Sometimes he will actually show up at their workplace (one works in a restaurant), wait to be served and talk to them for a moment, and then just longingly gaze at them.  It's very creepy.  When he talks to them, he goes into another room and starts the sappy talk like they are mistresses.

That will probably sound to outsiders like you are jealous and all that "lovely" stuff people assume that don't have a clue.  I can totally picture it though.  Mine would probably do the same if he had kids.  

I suspect pwBPD need validation at all times, and when they have split their partners black, they run to others for validation.  My H regularly splits me black, then goes to his children to complaint about me.  It's very unhealthy.  One D actually called me to blast me for "mistreating and abusing" her father!

This is something I find extremely hurtful and difficult to deal with myself.  If people only knew the emotional pain we go through then maybe they would understand how much worse it is when we get blamed and accused of such nasty things.

He called to say goodnight a while ago.  He knows I know even though he is pretending not to know.  He asked me if something is wrong.  I said I am fine. He knows though.  It actually wouldn't surprise me if he saw the ex after work.  I did see them both online right before he went out for coffee. 

Ever since her divorce they are constantly running into each other at a coffee shop.  Of course, it is always just by chance!  Right before she left her husband my SO came to me and told me he has something to tell me and that he doesn't want me hearing it elsewhere.  Then he told me that "purely by chance" he and his ex ended up parking next to each other at a shopping mall!  By chance?  Yeah right.  I bet someone spotted them and he was scared I'd find out so he rushed to tell me first and tried to make it sound like it was just a coincidence.

On Saturday morning he went to the coffee shop.  By 4pm he was there again.  He invited me to join him.  Something he has never done!  He clearly thought I would say no, because once he saw I was getting ready to go he suddenly told me he is meeting "the boys" and I can't go.  Well, he meets those "boys" every single day of the week for coffee!  I am convinced he went to meet her.

[GaGrl]

It sounds like an emotional affair, at the least.

[Perdita]

What's your gut feeling on this, Perdita? Do you think it's an actual affair?

Bnonymous, he has always justified other women by saying "as long as I am not f ing them, there is nothing wrong with me taking them out."  That right there says a lot and no matter how I try to explain to him that it is disrespectful and hurtful that he has contact with women he finds attractive and lusts after, he will still not give a damn and tell me that it's my problem. Trying to explain the dangers of forming emotional attachment with other women is over his head (he pretends so).

As for this woman, he swears she is in a r/s and the thing herself told me that way back when we spoke.  Actually, she echoed him big time in everything she said. Both of them are strangers to the truth which is why I can't believe a word out of their mouths.  I asked him what if she weren't in a r/s?  Would he be with her then.  I can't even remember what he said.  Word salad.  I have even asked him more than once the past few weeks if he wants to see other people.  He made a big show of being offended.

What I do know from emails between them and hand written letters of hers, is that their sex life was lousy and something they always argued about probably more than anything.  To be blunt, he thought she saw it as this huge favor she was doing  him and basically just wanted to lie on her back the whole time.  

The past month he has twice shouted at me that I need to earn more money.  He has always known that I earn enough to just get by and take care of what needs to be.  He on the other hand has a good salary and is extremely wasteful with money.  His ex is an only child and her father is a very wealthy man.  We all know the type of woman.  Living in a big expensive house of her "own" by age 20, driving the best cars etc.  All paid for by daddy.  She has no post high school qualifications, because daddy takes care of everything.  A bored spoiled rich girl with no apparent purpose from what I can tell.  

The fact that my SO is now taking to shouting at me and resenting me for not earning more is a big red flag to me.  He knows how hard I work and how I want to be able to not just scrape by.  He knows this is a sensitive issue for me and the reason I actually didn't want to move in with him, but he said it's not an issue for him.  I have spend all my savings on the house to make it nice inside.  He has broken things that I've had for many years that he knows means a lot to me and has had an "oh well" attitude.  He has ruined various items I've bought.  I've asked him if he wants me to move out and he says "no" but then acts like an ass.

My gut is telling me that he could kick me out at any minute if she asked him to.  

[Bnonymous]

The fact that my SO is now taking to shouting at me and resenting me for not earning more is a big red flag to me.   

.

I'd trust your intuition on this. You know when something is "off" or when something that may seem small taken in isolation has huge significance in context.

My gut is telling me that he could kick me out at any minute if she asked him to. 

It must be awful to feel like that. I'm so sorry. 

How are you responding?

When I knew my ex was seeing someone, I tried to talk to him about it. This was met with gaslighting and angry denials (as is happening to you now). So... I gave up and started withdrawing self-protectively. I actually became quite cold and stand-off-ish with him.

Thing is, I think, in his head, the two weren't linked. I think, in his head, it was "I've started seeing someone else, AND, B doesn't want me anymore anyway" like these were two completely unrelated facts.

I think it's possible that he would not have ended up dumping me for her if I had reacted differently (though, of course, I'll never know for sure).

But I have been wishing for a time machine. I have been wishing I could go back and ask myself "Right, okay, so this is happening now, what do I want to happen next and what's the best way to go about moving towards it?". Because I have a lot of regrets that I didn't do this. Hindsight, hey?

You may feel that this is it for you now anyway. You may feel that he's crossed a line that you don't wish to come back from. Or you may want to be with him anyway. It is very very hard to step back and ask ourselves these kinds of questions when we're in the middle of the hurt and confusion and the gaslighting phase. There are no right or wrong answers to them. But I think it might be a good idea to try and work out your answers.

[AskingWhy]

Bnonymous, he has always justified other women by saying "as long as I am not f ing them, there is nothing wrong with me taking them out."  

Perdita, your SO is so wrong.  

My H is constantly thinking about his children, especially his Ds.  I already stated they are like mistresses.  It's called emotional incest for a reason.  All day long he gets phone calls from them, each and every day, plus many texts.  

There is nothing wrong with being in friendly contact with adult children, but going overboard is.

Gagrl called it an emotional affair.  An affair is an affair.  Period.

[once removed]

What I do know from emails between them and hand written letters of hers, is that their sex life was lousy

how long have you been monitoring them, and to what extent?

what have you found that bothers you the most, and why?

[Perdita]

But I have been wishing for a time machine. I have been wishing I could go back and ask myself "Right, okay, so this is happening now, what do I want to happen next and what's the best way to go about moving towards it?". Because I have a lot of regrets that I didn't do this. Hindsight, hey?

I'm not sure a time machine will help you much.  In the 6 years I've been with SO I have tried so many different angles myself.  Yes, there has been some progress.  In the early years he sure didn't give a damn about me.  Honestly, he didn't.  If you read my posts from way back you'd see the hell I've been through.  I've never experienced anything like this before.  I think it is natural to think "what if I had done this instead of that".  Yet, in my experience, the BPD person just ends up pulling a whole new trick every time you think you've had a major break through.  

It is very very hard to step back and ask ourselves these kinds of questions when we're in the middle of the hurt and confusion and the gaslighting phase. There are no right or wrong answers to them. But I think it might be a good idea to try and work out your answers.

He said something unexpected on Sunday when we were arguing after I packed up much of my stuff.  From out of the blue he said he is tired of people playing on his feelings.  I tell you, I felt like slapping him so hard for that!  He is the emotional manipulator playing the victim.  I even told him that it's strange how he is always the victim.  He then from out of nowhere said that it's not his fault.  That nothing is his fault and that it's not his fault that his mother has never been happy (his father cheated on her with a woman half his age and walked out on their family).  He even went on about how he is tired of hearing his mother say "if it wasn't for you".  This came as a surprise to me.  I know she is still upset with her ex H, but I have never heard her put my SO down.  In fact she's always telling him he's her beautiful baby boy, hugging him and baking for him.  I feel he resents his mother for his father cheating instead of putting the blame on his father. Now he seems to have thrown me in with his mother somehow.  So odd.

[Bnonymous]

The FOO stuff is interesting.

on Sunday when we were arguing after I packed up much of my stuff. 

Can you tell us more about that? (Or link me to relevant threads if you've already talked about it and I missed it).

[Perdita]

how long have you been monitoring them, and to what extent?

what have you found that bothers you the most, and why?

Once Removed, I started light monitoring about 16 months ago.  I'd sometimes let weeks go by without checking if they are online at the same time.  Then I'd watch a bit, then stop for a while.  It's only since August that I have been monitoring them more, but really only over the past 6 - 8 weeks that I've stepped it up and started checking almost daily if not daily.

What bothers me is that I can see she isn't someone that uses the app much.  When I see she is on and he is on and they go on and off together, then that bothers me.  He use to send me messages during the day and call me to tell me how his day is going.  Now he rarely does that and when he does he keeps it so short.  I always say that if your SO stops talking and confiding in you then they are sharing those thoughts with someone else.  

What really bothers me though is that he has started to go out when it makes no sense and out of the usual for him.  In other words, I am seeing him saying he is off to the coffee shop at new times and then I check and I see them online back and forth before he goes.  Sometimes I see them online together first for a while and then he says he's going for coffee.  

It's the knowing and still being lied to and told I am crazy and imagining things.  He even tried to get me to see his dr recently!  I said no.  I know him.  He wants me to see his doctor and then he wants to tell people "see that, she's not well in the head."  Sounds over-the-top, I know, but he has really gone out of his way over the years to paint me as insane.  The astonishing thing is that people believe him.  They don't see me losing it and such, but they take his word for whatever he tells them.  Yet he is the one on all these pills, and abusing drugs and having public temper tantrums during which he kicks and throws things.  Of course, he doesn't do this when family and friends are around.  I see it and so does everyone that happens to be in the shop or whatever.

[Bnonymous]

What really bothers me though is that he has started to go out when it makes no sense and out of the usual for him.  In other words, I am seeing him saying he is off to the coffee shop at new times and then I check and I see them online back and forth before he goes.  Sometimes I see them online together first for a while and then he says he's going for coffee. 

This is probably a silly question, but I assume you continue to check after he goes out to see if she's offline during that time?

It's the knowing and still being lied to and told I am crazy and imagining things.  He even tried to get me to see his dr recently!  I said no.  I know him.  He wants me to see his doctor and then he wants to tell people "see that, she's not well in the head."  Sounds over-the-top, I know, but he has really gone out of his way over the years to paint me as insane.  The astonishing thing is that people believe him.  They don't see me losing it and such, but they take his word for whatever he tells them.

That sounds horrific! My dad used to do this to me when I was a teenager - it's a very difficult thing to live with and come back from.

[Perdita]

The FOO stuff is interesting.

Can you tell us more about that? (Or link me to relevant threads if you've already talked about it and I missed it).

We've been arguing for a while now.  In fact, it escalated after he went to that event where her family were at.  He says she wasn't there, but he also said none of her family members were there until he realized that those pics of him with her dad were on FB! I kept quiet about it for, I estimate, about 2 weeks before he was shouting at me one morning and I told him that he lied about that and that I know.

Over the past 10 days things just got gradually worse.  Like I mentioned earlier, he disrespects my possessions and seems to enjoy it and does nothing to try and make it up to me.  I got tired of constantly picking up after him, doing his laundry and ironing, cooking and cleaning etc.  I stopped doing all that a week ago after doing it for 3 months and him taking it for granted.  He got upset about having to wash the dishes last week even though there weren't many on account of him living on McDonald's as I stopped bothering to cook. I basically stopped caring because he doesn't care about the domestic stuff and because I am exhausted.

I told him a week earlier that I don't feel at home, that he hasn't helped me settle in and despite him owning a truck he helped move next to nothing of mine whereas I packed up his entire previous house for him and did back breaking work - with no thanks from him.  I told him I feel I am simply camping out in someone else's house.  Nothing is organized in my closet because he hasn't helped me put in shelving.  I struggle to find my things.  

He goes out every day after work with friends and some nights.  Meanwhile I am at "home" just wandering around because the hobbies etc that I'd usually keep myself busy with aren't there.  I am bored and lonely in the house.  When I first told him this, he said he will do what he can to help me settle in and feel at home.  Then next thing he has a don't-care attitude about it again.  As if he has forgotten all about our conversation.  

Even when he is at home he just rolls one spliff after the other and goes and sits outside to smoke.  He doesn't read, or work on his laptop or engages in any activity when he is home.  He eats, showers, smokes and smokes some more and sleeps.  He will smoke until what time at night and gets angry when I go to sleep without him.  Then he wakes me at 6am because that's when he wakes up.  On Sunday he was a total ass again and I just lost it when he left to go to a weed plantation.  I started packing up.

[once removed]

I started light monitoring about 16 months ago.

did these occur during that 16 months:

What I do know from emails between them and hand written letters of hers

About 2 weeks after this I decided, screw this, and couldn't resist checking his phone.

It's the knowing and still being lied to

is he denying that he speaks to her?

[Perdita]

This is probably a silly question, but I assume you continue to check after he goes out to see if she's offline during that time?

Yes, I have because I want to be sure.  She's not on the chat app often.  Rather I should say, she not on often unless he is on. After I saw him check his messages tonight and realized they chatted today, well, there's no denying it anymore or trying to explain it away as I've done in the past.  Something very similar happened in August.  He swore they never speak and it was a lie.  He swore up and down recently as well and yet there's the truth right in my face tonight again.

That sounds horrific! My dad used to do this to me when I was a teenager - it's a very difficult thing to live with and come back from.

It is very rough, isn't it?  As you said, very hard to come back from.  I feel my name's been dragged through the mud while he just breezes on through life. :-(

[Perdita]

is he denying that he speaks to her?

Once Removed, yes he denies it completely.  He tells me I make things up in my mind and that I end up believing myself.  He likes to ask "why do you do this to yourself?"

The emails I found years ago by chance when I had to go through messages for him and yes, I admit it, once I found them I printed them out and read them at my leisure.  It confirmed so much yet at the same time revealing a lot of lies on his part about that r/s.  It helped me in many ways.  She was still married at the time and had a kid.  I didn't feel the need to monitor anything and he wasn't on that app back then.  I did, however, monitor his search history because I discovered that he was going to her FB 4-5 x every single week and this went back years.

His phone I did check in the past 16 months.  That's when I found those voice messages to her telling her I am brain disordered and that he needs to leave me and stuff along those lines.  That is why I started monitoring them on that app.  I haven't actually checked his phone for messages and calls.  I am scared of getting caught out.  He deletes stuff anyway.

[Perdita]

Update.

He came over this morning before work and kept asking what went wrong last night and saying he has no idea and I need to tell him.  I said hey what makes you think anything is wrong? He kept pretending then finally he said "I guess you saw her name on my chat". 

He then went on to say that she's a client and needed a phone number. A number she should bloody well have had herself! He went on to lie by telling me that only he could help her. Bollocks.

Lies all of it.  He asked me why I am so insecure and said he did nothing wrong.  Yet guess what? He deleted their messages!  If it really was all innocent and work related then he would have kept it and showed me.  This is the first I have heard of her even being a client. I don't believe she is as I have done temp work for his company that involved me going through the files of every single client. She wasn't one of them.

Then before leaving he tried pulling a suicidal guilt trip on me as he walked away. I felt like calling after him and saying that I can't care less. He pulls that every time I catch him out as a way to try and make me feel bad. No longer works.

[Bnonymous]

Hi Perdita,

I've clearly missed things you may have talked about in earlier threads, but it sounds as though you have moved in to his place, you have given up some hobbies and outside interests to be able to do so, and you have little social support - is that correct?

You are in a set of circumstances that make you quite dependent on him, but he is leaving you to your own devices a lot of the time, will not talk things through with you openly, and tries to gaslight you and label you as crazy for doubting him - is that right?

On the other hand, you said something about making enough money to get by, so you do have a job or business and some financial independence. That's something positive. I won't ask what you do, for privacy reasons, but is it something that gets you out and in contact with others? Is it something you enjoy? Does it bring a sense of purpose or fulfilment? I'm just thinking about what you have (in terms of circumstances) that doesn't depend on him, because I think it's going to be important to hold on tight to anything like that to keep you on your feet while the room lurches and rocks like you're on a boat.

Then before leaving he tried pulling a suicidal guilt trip on me as he walked away. I felt like calling after him and saying that I can't care less. He pulls that every time I catch him out as a way to try and make me feel bad. No longer works.

I'm glad you didn't actually do that. Often suicide threats are just a way of expressing the intensity of emotion (like no other way to express it seems BIG enough). Sometimes they can be manipulative moves. But sometimes they're genuine. And it can be impossible to tell which is which.

Remember, once when the Boy Who Cried Wolf yelled "wolf!", there actually was a wolf.

I would take him seriously but also continue to refuse to be manipulated by it. Have a list of helpline numbers to hand. Call his doctor. If he says he's going to do it imminently or has a plan, call emergency services. These sorts of things.

[Perdita]

I did just that last year, called his ex psychologist, when he threatened suicide. She called him, he told her I was making it up. I told her I have the proof, messages.
 Then he gave me hell for callung her. I asked him what he expected me to do when he makes these threats. That time it was also because I caught him out. It's a way to keep me in my place.

The reason I can't pursue my artistic hobbies is because I need him to help me move those things. It's literally a 8 minute round trip but he carries on as though it will takes weeks out of his life. A few weeks ago he threw a horrible tantrum about this that really scared me.  He was like something demonic that time. This in turn has left me feeling hesitant about moving more of my belongings.

[Bnonymous]

Is there anyone else you could get to help you move the things? Could you hire a "man with van" or similar?

Sorry, I get that this misses part of the point. I get that he should want to help you and support you and encourage and nurture your individual talents and interests. And I get that it's a red flag that he doesn't, even more so that he had this rage (what happened there, what did he do and say?)

It's just that your not having your art/hobby supplies matters in itself too. I don't want for you to lose the things that bring you joy and fulfilment and a sense of self. Or feel that you need to wait for him to bestow them on you. If there is any way you could pick up your supplies without his help, take it.

[Enabler]

I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread so apologies if I repeat or contradict others advice. My advice is DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO INDICATE YOU KNOW ANYTHING... yet. I might be too late for this. It would seem that he lies, wholesale, likely about a lot of things.

What I am going to suggest is about 'truth management / reality management'.

There is a huge inclination to take evidence and show and tell, say "I found this, you're doing this". What tends to happen in my experience is that your pwBPD will just adapt their behaviour. It won't stop the behaviour, it will just mean that it takes another avenue. At the moment, you know about this mode of communication and you can continue absorbing information. Start your surveillance. Take note (and I mean literal notes) of where he says he is, what he's doing and who he's with. Try to tally together data all the while being conscious not to rouse his suspicions and alert him to your suspicions. Put 'evidence' back where you find it, take photos of things rather than keep them and always make sure that it's 100% safe to search before looking, I have been caught out a number of times when my W has returned because she'd forgotten something.

Whilst you are re-adjusting your reality (horrible process), read the following book:

Love Must be Tough - Dr James Dobson
https://www.amazon.com/Love-Must-Be-Tough-Marriages/dp/141431745X

It's a Christian book but really could be applicable to anyone in a relationship with someone committing infidelity.

This is a one shot thing... you get one chance. Having a clear irrefutable dossier of evidence will give you confidence to make unilateral choices and stonewall any gaslighting dead in its tracks. This will be one of the biggest, if not THE biggest boundary you will ever have to mark out.

Enabler

Enabler

[Ltahoe]

Perdita

This is hard and ridiculous at the same time. Him talking to is ex should be a big no period. At the same time it’s sad that you’d have to resort to tactics of monitoring, and suspicioun. Honestly I can be pretty cynical when it comes to things like this. Really I don’t buy it when he says he’s just communicating, why even communicate in such a manner. If he’s not having an affair my hard blunt reality tells me one is in the making. His comments about being able to hangout with other woman as long as he’s not having sex with them is also ridiculous. You have someone with compulsive issues hanging out with the opposite sex in a very questionable way to begin with.

I also feel you’re stuck because now anything you do(minitoring) will come off as you being a controlling person. Enabler is also right if you continue to monitor you’ll have to keep your emotions in check. Any premature mention or clues of the monitoring will have him thinking of ways to circumvent the situation. If you’re seeking for something in particular I wouldn’t mention anything until it’s verified or unverified. I do hope things get better for you.

[Perdita]

Is there anyone else you could get to help you move the things? Could you hire a "man with van" or similar?

The problem with this for me at the very moment is that I am now scared about moving in any more of my things because I am thinking I might be out of there again soon the way things are going.

Sorry, I get that this misses part of the point. I get that he should want to help you and support you and encourage and nurture your individual talents and interests. And I get that it's a red flag that he doesn't, even more so that he had this rage (what happened there, what did he do and say?)

He will complement me on my work and tell me that I am so creative and talented etc.  Yet it's been three months and he won't help me get everything there and setup.  He has to still sort a whole lot of his own stuff out to and just isn't doing it.  I've had to do so much in and around the house that he really should have been doing as the man.  Yes, gender roles are supposedly old fashioned.  I do still expect the man to be doing certain things around the house.


The rage thing was while we were in his truck.  He was upset because a new friend called and agreed to go out with him that afternoon.  He and I were already on our way to some shops to pick up very specific items for the house.  He went nuts, saying he could be home charging his camera for the outing with this guy but is instead driving me around.  I said, hang on, you are the one that told me you have to head to the office on a Sunday and that I must come with and make it all one trip.  Then he started banging his steering wheel and shouting that I always do this to him.  That is such a load of bs.  95% of this r/s is about him and what he wants to do and when he wants to do it.  Yes, that's bad of me but I have found it easier to just go along.  So there we were in his truck when he went into this very bad rage.  Shouting, banging the steering repeatedly on/off and racing through traffic like a mad man, putting his head out his window and shouting at other drivers numerous times along the way.  I kept telling him to stop it, to go straight "home" and forget about making the stops at the 2 shops (actually right next to each other) where I needed to pop in.  Yet he kept shouting that "you'd like that wouldn't you?"  I honestly was in fear of an accident the way he was carrying on.  It wasn't just "normal" racing, but very aggressive.  He insisted on stopping anyway, then insisted that he'd get the items and I must wait in the car.  When he got back he threw the bag with the items to my side and just kept on raging all the way back.

It's just that your not having your art/hobby supplies matters in itself too. I don't want for you to lose the things that bring you joy and fulfilment and a sense of self. Or feel that you need to wait for him to bestow them on you. If there is any way you could pick up your supplies without his help, take it.

I don't want to lose those things either.  Before moving in with him I was alone a lot.  Really a LOT.  I was never bored however because my hobbies and interests always kept me occupied.