I don't feel like I have any idea what the right thing is at this point

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334537.30

I would suggest you turn the question around and look at if from the opposite direction.   What can I do that makes me feel like I have done the right thing.

'ducks

I like that way of looking at it. I don't feel like I have any idea what the right thing is at this point. I'm not sure about big picture things or day-to-day things. I don't know if this will make sense. I'm not sure it makes sense to me. I suppose it's an example of not knowing what to do.

So I'm sitting in a coffeehouse. Pretty normal place for me to be after work. I haven't communicated with my wife today. I emailed her yesterday morning. She emailed me at some point to remind me of a dentist appointment--they had sent a reminder postcard. I thanked her. That was yesterday afternoon. No communication since then.

The usual routine would be for me to email sometime today and ask to see her. I did not do that. I don't really want to see her. I mean, I would love to see her and just spend time at home with her and with the dogs, but I don't want all that comes with that. So I sit here and feel a little bit like a jerk for not trying to see her or talk to her or communicate with her in some way. But if I send an email, it won't be the right thing to say. And she is not currently emailing me, and I'd rather it stay that way. So I'm sitting here hoping I don't communicate with my wife tonight. That feels pretty bad to me. It doesn't feel right. But that's where I am. I feel like I haven't been able to think about anything for years. It's been threats and meltdowns and me trying to be there and trying to do things she's asked and failing and then more meltdowns and then more trying and then more and more, etc. I want a break.

On the one hand, that seems reasonable to me. My T tells me it is. She's told me it would be reasonable to take a month, but she recognizes that sounds crazy to me. And it does. Or not crazy, but wrong. What feels right is pretty much what I've been doing. I contact her, and I offer to be there, I offer to do things, and I wait for her to say yes or no. When she says 'yes,' I'm there. When she says 'no', I'm not. But that's what I've been doing, and not only does it not work, it makes her upset. It's me "not doing anything." So now that dynamic doesn't really feel right either.

She doesn't say this, but I feel like what she wants is for me to feel a certain way, and I don't feel that way. I do love her, but I do not feel particularly warm or loving towards her right now. I can *do* things even when I don't feel that way. I can shop and cook and clean and hang out with her and talk with her and do the things I can do. But none of that is what she really wants. Or she wants that, but she wants me to be doing those things with a different feeling behind it. And I don't feel that way. I don't think this is the worst thing in the world. I think part of the point of marriage is to keep people together even when they don't feel that way, because you're not always going to feel that. That's okay. I will feel that way, I think, if I can get a chance to. But those feelings have taken a real beating the past few years.

I think I'd feel like I was doing the right thing if I was acting out of a feeling of love instead of FOG. And I try to do that, but the thing that would be most helpful for me to do that is to have a break--to stop the pattern we've been in for years. To have something good, or at least neutral, between us to start to balance out all of the badness. I guess I'm trying to talk myself into the idea that the right thing to do is to do what I'm doing. To not contact her all the time. To not offer to do something everyday. To try to get a break. Because I'm no good in this relationship the way things are. If things are going to get better, I'm going to have to have a better mindset, a better approach, and feel differently than I do right now.

Still, that doesn't really seem right to me. And it drives me crazy that the person I most want to talk about this with, I can't.

That's long and rambling and I'm not sure it makes sense or really responds to anything, but there it is.  

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334537.30

I would suggest you turn the question around and look at if from the opposite direction.   What can I do that makes me feel like I have done the right thing.

'ducks

I like that way of looking at it. I don't feel like I have any idea what the right thing is at this point. I'm not sure about big picture things or day-to-day things. I don't know if this will make sense. I'm not sure it makes sense to me. I suppose it's an example of not knowing what to do.

So I'm sitting in a coffeehouse. Pretty normal place for me to be after work. I haven't communicated with my wife today. I emailed her yesterday morning. She emailed me at some point to remind me of a dentist appointment--they had sent a reminder postcard. I thanked her. That was yesterday afternoon. No communication since then.

The usual routine would be for me to email sometime today and ask to see her. I did not do that. I don't really want to see her. I mean, I would love to see her and just spend time at home with her and with the dogs, but I don't want all that comes with that. So I sit here and feel a little bit like a jerk for not trying to see her or talk to her or communicate with her in some way. But if I send an email, it won't be the right thing to say. And she is not currently emailing me, and I'd rather it stay that way. So I'm sitting here hoping I don't communicate with my wife tonight. That feels pretty bad to me. It doesn't feel right. But that's where I am. I feel like I haven't been able to think about anything for years. It's been threats and meltdowns and me trying to be there and trying to do things she's asked and failing and then more meltdowns and then more trying and then more and more, etc. I want a break.

On the one hand, that seems reasonable to me. My T tells me it is. She's told me it would be reasonable to take a month, but she recognizes that sounds crazy to me. And it does. Or not crazy, but wrong. What feels right is pretty much what I've been doing. I contact her, and I offer to be there, I offer to do things, and I wait for her to say yes or no. When she says 'yes,' I'm there. When she says 'no', I'm not. But that's what I've been doing, and not only does it not work, it makes her upset. It's me "not doing anything." So now that dynamic doesn't really feel right either.

She doesn't say this, but I feel like what she wants is for me to feel a certain way, and I don't feel that way. I do love her, but I do not feel particularly warm or loving towards her right now. I can *do* things even when I don't feel that way. I can shop and cook and clean and hang out with her and talk with her and do the things I can do. But none of that is what she really wants. Or she wants that, but she wants me to be doing those things with a different feeling behind it. And I don't feel that way. I don't think this is the worst thing in the world. I think part of the point of marriage is to keep people together even when they don't feel that way, because you're not always going to feel that. That's okay. I will feel that way, I think, if I can get a chance to. But those feelings have taken a real beating the past few years.

I think I'd feel like I was doing the right thing if I was acting out of a feeling of love instead of FOG. And I try to do that, but the thing that would be most helpful for me to do that is to have a break--to stop the pattern we've been in for years. To have something good, or at least neutral, between us to start to balance out all of the badness. I guess I'm trying to talk myself into the idea that the right thing to do is to do what I'm doing. To not contact her all the time. To not offer to do something everyday. To try to get a break. Because I'm no good in this relationship the way things are. If things are going to get better, I'm going to have to have a better mindset, a better approach, and feel differently than I do right now.

Still, that doesn't really seem right to me. And it drives me crazy that the person I most want to talk about this with, I can't.

That's long and rambling and I'm not sure it makes sense or really responds to anything, but there it is.  

[AskingWhy]

stolencrumbs, at this point, you are going to feel a number of different emotions and none of them is right or wrong.

Having a BPD partner is crazy making.  This is why often therapists can tell the difference between the pwBPD and the non.  This was the way with a marriage T who sided with my uBPD H.  She actually hollered at me when I expressed my anger and upset when my H dysregulated, raged and tore up the house.  (He only told her his side, and evidently it convinced her more than my side.)  

I understand the threats and meltdowns.  My H will have a bad day at work, or may not have seen (physically seen) one of his adult children (object relations, you know) that he is enmeshed with, and dysregulate.  (H seems soothed after seeing his children.  It's almost like he has been given a tranquiliser.)  Even after a phone call with one of his adult children, he is visibly more at ease and calm, and even content--like an infant given a toy or a bottle of milk to nurse on.  My H's favourite threat is divorce, usually inferred as, "I don't know what I am doing with you!"  "I hate you and don't want you in my life any more!" and so on.

I have found that disengaging works best when my H is like this.  He will rage and make threats, and I will say something calm like, "You want to trash the kitchen.  Fine, but do it after I make dinner."  It really take the wind out of his sails when I don't cry or respond with counter-rage.  The other day he pouted, "I don't want any dinner you make for me!"  I said, "Then go ahead and starve."  He'll leave the house and get into the car and drive away.  It really is like dealing with a bratty child.  

I have been through unspeakable crying jags at the pain H put me through over the twenty years of marriage (the rages and dysregulations, putting his children as priority and virtually ignoring me, etc), so my responses reflect my resignation that he needs disengagement and no drama.  No fuel for the fire, and it eventually goes out.

Be well, stolencrumbs.  Living with a pwBPD tests anyone's sanity.  

[babyducks]

Good to hear from you stolencrumbs.  I admire the way you keep chipping away at this in the face of some difficult circumstances.

I think sometimes rambling is okay.    It gets the confusion out on the table and helps move it out of the way.

I agree with AskingWhy.    pwBPD process life, the events of life, the function of living; in ways that are different from what we are used too.   and in ways that are vastly different from how we process life.    trying to pull that apart  and make sense of it isn't easy.    You've been entrenched in this behavior pattern for a long time. I suspect there is some conditioning at work.     You've had some moderate success recently in changing things and I think it's possible to build on that.

here is what I noticed in what you wrote:

So I'm sitting here hoping I don't communicate with my wife tonight. That feels pretty bad to me. It doesn't feel right. But that's where I am.

that makes sense to me,   it sounds like you want to communicate with the wife you hoped you could/would have, not with the wife who struggles to function in a relationship.  unfortunately both of those people live in the same body, and you are never sure who you are going to get.

here is what I think.   and wait for it, this is great wisdom through painful experience.   

feelings just are.   they are neither right or wrong.   neither good or bad.   feelings shouldn't necessarily be one way or the other.    feelings pass through like the weather, somedays sunny, somedays cloudy.    somedays they just show up and basically suck.     feelings just are.   kind of like a sneeze, they just happen.   what matters is what we do with our feelings.   how we act on them.   it sounds like you want to act on those feelings in a thoughtful and compassionate way.    remember that compassion can extend to you as much as to your wife.

I want a break.
On the one hand, that seems reasonable to me. My T tells me it is. She's told me it would be reasonable to take a month, but she recognizes that sounds crazy to me. And it does. Or not crazy, but wrong.
 ... the thing that would be most helpful for me to do that is to have a break--to stop the pattern we've been in for years.   

I think you are entitled to a break.   I think you deserve a break.    I am not sure that taking a break would equal feeling better.   I am wondering if you took a break, if the feelings you've stuffed for years would start to surface.   it's been years of focusing on her feelings.   changing that up is going to be awkward.  absolutely going to feel odd and uncomfortable.  so just to play with the idea, if you went to your wife and said "I need a break from this cycle of conflict.   I am going to take a month to think through what I want, what I can reasonably bring to our relationship, what my expectations of the future look like.."   how would that play out for you?    what would you do?    how would you fill your time?  what would your goals be for that month?   would you travel?   rent a vacation home nearby?   

no one can go and go and go and give and give and give without recharging their own battery.    what recharges your battery?

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

I think you are entitled to a break.   I think you deserve a break.    I am not sure that taking a break would equal feeling better.   I am wondering if you took a break, if the feelings you've stuffed for years would start to surface.   it's been years of focusing on her feelings.   changing that up is going to be awkward.  absolutely going to feel odd and uncomfortable.  so just to play with the idea, if you went to your wife and said "I need a break from this cycle of conflict.   I am going to take a month to think through what I want, what I can reasonably bring to our relationship, what my expectations of the future look like.."   how would that play out for you?    what would you do?    how would you fill your time?  what would your goals be for that month?   would you travel?   rent a vacation home nearby?   

no one can go and go and go and give and give and give without recharging their own battery.    what recharges your battery?

Awesome post, 'ducks. Totally agree with everything.

[Red5]

Quote by babyducks

... I agree with AskingWhy, pwBPD process life, the events of life, the function of living; in ways that are (far) different from what we are used too.  

…and in ways that are vastly different from how we process life.    

*Trying to pull that apart and make sense of it isn't easy!    

You've been entrenched in this behavior pattern for a long time.

I suspect there is some conditioning at work.  

 

I am also experiencing this currently… trying to make sense, and struggling to communicate with my uBPDw… right now, her 'language' of communication is anger… as in its all my fault, the whole marriage and relationship, being eleven years… but still I try, and I attempt to use the tools, and to "stop making it worse"… in order to lay some groundwork, to perhaps one day start to make it better.

hang in there Stolencrumbs,

Kind Regards, Red5

[stolencrumbs]

I think you're right, 'ducks (and this was a point I think Enabler made as well), that I have a  hard time accepting how different my wife is. I have a hard time labeling her as BPD. In part this is because there is no diagnosis, and I am not qualified in any way to make such a diagnosis. A lot of things seem to fit, but what do I know? I might be wrong. Maybe she doesn't have a personality disorder at all. Maybe if I had found some other support community for some other illness, I'd start seeing her as having that, too. I don't think that's the case, but I don't know. I think the tools here are good no matter what, but I am reluctant to put that label on my wife based on my say so, and that does probably keep me from accepting what might be the reality of the situation.

I'm not sure about the idea that feelings aren't right or wrong. I'm not sure how important this is, and I don't want to get too caught up in it, but on the face of it, that doesn't strike me as being quite right. To take an extreme example, if I felt pleasure when others were suffering, I think that'd be wrong. Feeling that would be wrong. It's not appropriate. It's not the right emotional response. I think it makes sense to talk that way. I don't think my situation is quite as simple, but it does make sense to me to think about what the right way to feel is, or what the fitting or appropriate emotional response is.

This is probably not surprising, but I don't think I have any idea what I'd do with a month to myself. It's telling that my initial reaction to reading that was to think about how mad it would make my wife. So yeah, I don't really know what I would do. I'm not sure what I want. I should probably try to figure that out.

[formflier]

  that I have a  hard time accepting how different my wife is. I have a hard time labeling her as BPD. In part this is because there is no diagnosis, and I am not qualified in any way to make such a diagnosis. A lot of things seem to fit, but what do I know? 

Hey Stolencrumbs,

"Accepting" is something we all struggle with.  I certainly still do.  I was blessed with a period of relative calm many months back and started to "slip" with reminding myself that my relationship functions very differently than "most" relationships.

Recent events have..unfortunately...reminded me that I (we) have different "rules".

Reading your post also reminded me of something I haven't been diligent about lately.  For a long time I would say "pwBPDish traits" as opposed to "pwBPD".  You make the point really well..."how do you know?"   

I'm blessed to have a very seasoned psychologist (PhD type) helping guide me through this.  She often encourages me to focus on the "traits" that I see and leave the diagnosing to her.  Luckily she has spent enough time with my wife that she has her figured out.  Oh...her other saying is "diagnosing is for insurance companies"...people are much more complex than a label. 

Think about it for a minute.  How many combinations of BPD traits can you get to "make the cutoff for BPD".  I don't know the answer..but it's a lot.

I would encourage you to use the appropriate tool for the behavior you see and don't be shocked when behaviors change.  Reach in your tool bag and pull out a different tool.

Last thought:  Don't be shocked if you find that you are having more time with your feelings as you get better with tools.  Appropriate use of tools will calm things and get you more space.  More space gets you more time with your feelings...many of which can be uncomfortable.

I'll finish by endorsing Babyducks suggestion of time away. 

Early on in my "BPD journey" I would avoid alone time.  Now I actively seek it out.

Stolencrumbs...you are on the right track.  Keep up the good work...the hard work of sorting through those feelings. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I have a  hard time accepting how different my wife is. I have a hard time labeling her as BPD. In part this is because there is no diagnosis, and I am not qualified in any way to make such a diagnosis. A lot of things seem to fit, but what do I know?

Why even concern yourself with a diagnosis? You can pay attention to observable behavior. Much of what you see is as obvious as whether she's left-handed or right-handed. Some of it is less obvious, such as being introverted or extroverted.

These labels are more for our convenience, so that we can organize our thoughts and understand the behavior from a more compassionate perspective. Having a theory that our partner might have a personality disorder can help us comprehend why our communication is ineffective with them, when it's often so effective with everyone else. We can learn how to speak in ways that are more in tune with how they see the world and by doing that, we can greatly improve our relationships.

I might be wrong. Maybe she doesn't have a personality disorder at all.

Whether or not she has a personality disorder, she has made multiple suicide threats, destroys dishes, puts holes in the wall,  doesn't permit you to live in your own house, and begs you to relocate elsewhere, regardless of whether or not you have a job.

This doesn't strike me as an emotionally healthy person, so it really doesn't matter if you label her as having BPD or not. Normal people do not engage in the type of behavior that you describe.

This is probably not surprising, but I don't think I have any idea what I'd do with a month to myself. It's telling that my initial reaction to reading that was to think about how mad it would make my wife. So yeah, I don't really know what I would do. I'm not sure what I want. I should probably try to figure that out.

You've been so focused upon trying to satisfy her wants, which are unquenchable and all over the map, that you've forgotten how to meet your own needs. Perhaps it's time to learn how to do that again.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi stolencrumbs,

I have followed your threads but haven't replied because you are getting such great advice from the big leagues here with 'ducks, Cat, andFF

I understand what you are saying about feelings being right or wrong. I know that in my r/s with stbxuBPDh, I never knew if I was having the "right" emotional response or not...the FOG got in the way of my ability to ascertain my own feelings and determine if they were "appropriate" or not.

I know it doesn't feel right to hope that you don't have to communicate with your wife sometimes. It doesn't feel right because of the "ideal" picture that most adults have of how a r/s should be. It feels wrong that you would dread communication with the person you married and promised to love and cherish for the rest of your life. But I think that not wanting to communicate with a person who has consistently drained you of every ounce of mental, emotional, and physical energy is absolutely an "appropriate" and "normal'' response to that situation. And I get it.

I also understand what you mean about wanting to have a motivation of love instead of the FOG. Sometimes, in these types of r/s, I think the FOG works because the love is there. It may not be the warm, fuzzy, in-love type of love feeling, but it is there- you show care and concern, because you love, and you show it in action (because love is action, not just feeling) and even if you are motivated through FOG, the love is still there. You are just worn out, and that is totally understandable and expected.

    Hugs to you,

Redeemed

[babyducks]

I absolutely believe that you are the ultimate authority on where you go after work and where you sleep tonight.   You are the final decision maker.    Not only is it up to you to pick and choose what is the right  thing, only you can.

In the spring the grass grows by itself.     You may not know what you want to do with a month on your own right now today.   I think that's because your not currently in an environment that allows the grass to grow.    You are living in the dead of winter.    It's hard to believe there is grass under all that snow.     I am sure that as you make changes that allow you to flourish what you want,  what feels right to you will come to the surface.

True,  none of us can diagnosis your wife.  We can look at the actions and behavior.   Your wife is verbally,  emotionally and physically abusive to you.      She is violent.  Her violence jeopardizes the items and things she is responsible for.    Her coping mechanisms are maladaptive to the point of being dangerous..   her ability to regulate her emotions is very low.    Her executive functionality  (problem solving and decision making skills ) is under developed.     Cat is right.    On the spectrum,  that is highly dysfunctional behavior.    The label is a convenience to frame the conversation.

It's okay to grieve the relationship we thought we were having.    The relationship we hoped to have.   To mourn all the wit and wisdom and personality that gets lost under the mental illness.

[stolencrumbs]

This is a bit unrelated, but not really. I sincerely appreciate the perspective and support y'all have given me here. I've always been a figure-it-out-by-myself kind of person. That obviously wasn't working for me. The time and thoughtfulness y'all give to a complete stranger is...I don't know. It restores faith in humanity.

And I think you're pretty good at doing what I'm going to ask you to do, so I probably don't need to ask. But if at some point you start thinking "this guy should stop complaining. his wife is right, he needs to step up. he needs to do more for her. he needs to show her more kindness and compassion." Or something along those lines. Please tell me.

I am getting on board with the need to think more about what I want and need. I'm getting warmer to that idea. But in my real life, what I hear is my wife, who is clearly hurting, telling me I need to do x, y, or z. And sometimes I just can't, but then I get a few days or weeks that aren't terrible, and I think, "okay, I can do that. Let me try again to do those things." On some level I see that that is the pattern, and that's what I've been doing for a long time, and it doesn't work. But I'm still pulled towards that.

So I'm trying to not do that so much. I'm trying to be less reactive to both her good and bad feelings. I'm trying to be more thoughtful. I'm trying to do what I need to do to come at all of this from a better place. But I also worry a lot about tipping over into coldness or callousness or indifference. And I don't want to do that. And I'm clearly not a reliable judge of such things. So if I veer in that direction and need a kick in the pants, please give it to me.

[Cat Familiar]

If I could make a wish, I would wish that the BPD partners of people who post here could have some minuscule amount of the kindness, compassion and helpfulness that you show your wife. Even a tiny bit of those qualities would make life so much more pleasant and tolerable for so many.

You are so accustomed to doing the lion's share of kindness and support in your relationship, that it doesn't even occur to you to see what is returned to you in kind by your wife. And I suspect it isn't much, if any.

You are at serious risk of burnout for all that you do and the little (or nothing) that is returned. So I think it's time for you to attend to your own needs. Even if you desire to continue to support your wife in the way you have been, you still need to take care of yourself in order to do so.

[GaGrl]

In terms of burnout...

What percentage of energy is your wife putting into your SHARED relationship? What percentage of that shared relationship do you anticipate she will fuel in future? (i.e. when life returns to "base')

What level of physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional energy do you have to maintain your side of the equation?

[formflier]

  show her more kindness and compassion

 

 I'm trying to be more thoughtful. 

You can do both.  What if in your thoughtful time you "thought through" how to "better express" kindness and compassion for your wife?

Then...realize that boundaries apply.  Let your wife have her opinion on whether or not you are expressing kindness and compassion.  Let you have your own opinion of that as well.  Think about how to be confident that you both can have different opinions.



FF

[stolencrumbs]

So, I have not seen my wife this week. This may be the longest we have not seen each other ever. No meltdowns that I'm aware of, no endless emails, etc. We have emailed, but they have been more thoughtful and not endless spinning out of control. There have been a few instances of emails trending in that direction, but shortly after, she has sent emails apologizing for getting upset. She has told me that she is doing a lot of work to try to let go of the past. I'm not sure what work that is, but things are definitely different. I'm sure changes I have made have influenced that, too. I've been glad to have a bit of break from the constant crisis.

The not-so-good thing is that I think she is basically trying to detach from me. She has more or less told me this. Even without the meltdowns, her underlying message is the same--I need to do more to show her that I care about her and the things that matter to her. If I don't do that, she is "moving on without me." Stepping back, this makes sense to me. If the really bad feelings come from being in a close relationship, then one way to get rid of them is to make that relationship not close. I have seen her do this with friends and family. It seems like the choice she is presenting is (a) you stop making me feel bad in this relationship or (b) I'm not going to be in this relationship. (a) doesn't really seem like a viable option to me. I can try to do better, but she is also going to need to do some work in that department, and I don't see an indication that she is willing to do that, or even aware that there is work to be done.

I have continued to try to do things she has asked, and that I am comfortable doing. I have asked to see her, I have asked to listen, I have offered to help with things, and I have proposed working on projects at the house. She also asked me to find a relationship book or exercises that we could do together. I did that, and I did my part of the first exercise, which was about acknowledging the things I've done to contribute to problems in the relationship. So I don't think I'm doing nothing, but whatever I'm doing doesn't seem to be what she wants me to be doing.

And I'm aware that that very dynamic is part of the problem--me just doing whatever she wants me to be doing. Anyway, I am, again, not sure what I want or what I should do. If detaching is what she needs to do in order to not feel suicidal, then I'm okay with that. I don't have any confidence in the alternative plan of me just not doing anything to upset her. I big part of me wants to just go over there and do whatever I possibly can to make her feel loved and cared for. But an equally big part of me worries that this would just put us back on the roller coaster when I inevitably disappoint her or upset her. She is not currently destroying the house or threatening to kill herself, and I'd like for that to continue, even if it is without me.

[formflier]

There is a counterintuitive thing that sometimes rears its head in BPDish relationships.

The closer a couple gets the more dysfunction and the more "distance" or "detached" they become, the less dysfunction. 

I've certainly seen this played out in  my relationship.  Do you think it's playing out in yours?

How do you feel about your answer?

FF

[stolencrumbs]

There is a counterintuitive thing that sometimes rears its head in BPDish relationships.

The closer a couple gets the more dysfunction and the more "distance" or "detached" they become, the less dysfunction. 

I've certainly seen this played out in  my relationship.  Do you think it's playing out in yours?

How do you feel about your answer?

FF

Yes, that it what is seems like, at least on her end. And it doesn't actually seem that counterintuitive to me.

It makes me sad to imagine her not feeling anything towards me. I see this with other relationships she has, e.g. with her mom. It's pretty crushing to imagine being on the other end of that, and she seems to be telling me that is what is happening. On the other hand, she certainly seems to be more stable, and I'm all for that. I would very much like for us to figure out how to make our relationship work, but I'll take distance right now over the kind of dysfunctional relationship we've had.

[formflier]

It makes me sad to imagine her not feeling anything towards me.


 I would very much like for us to figure out how to make our relationship work, but I'll take distance right now over the kind of dysfunctional relationship we've had.

Two big things I would hope you can ponder for a bit.

One challenge:  Please don't think her feelings are a "void" or "nothing".  Granted we don't know exactly what she feels, yet we generally know that she has some sort of problem regulating her emotions.  So...it's likely that she feels close...then far..then back again with a speed that would make your head spin.  (this is a big simplification for teaching purposes but I hope you will consider the impact of this)


Making your relationship work.  What do you observations up to this point suggest will help your relationship work?

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Two big things I would hope you can ponder for a bit.

One challenge:  Please don't think her feelings are a "void" or "nothing".  Granted we don't know exactly what she feels, yet we generally know that she has some sort of problem regulating her emotions.  So...it's likely that she feels close...then far..then back again with a speed that would make your head spin.  (this is a big simplification for teaching purposes but I hope you will consider the impact of this)


Making your relationship work.  What do you observations up to this point suggest will help your relationship work?

FF

I guess I've never really experience her being "far." I've been hated for sure, but this seems different. It feels like she is aiming for nothingness, or numbness towards me. I also haven't seen her switch from that with others in her life. Again, I've seen her go from loving to hating in a nanosecond, but once she's done, she seems to be done. That seems to be the long-term coping strategy--just shut it all down. I worry that's what's happening.

I'll have to think more about what I think making it work looks like.

[Cat Familiar]

She has told me that she is doing a lot of work to try to let go of the past.

What about the past do you think she is trying to let go of?

Even without the meltdowns, her underlying message is the same--I need to do more to show her that I care about her and the things that matter to her.

What are the things that matter to her?

[I Am Redeemed]

Do you think when she says "the things that matter to her" she is talking about how she wants to move somewhere else and wants you to upheave everything to do that with her (for her)?

[stolencrumbs]

Do you think when she says "the things that matter to her" she is talking about how she wants to move somewhere else and wants you to upheave everything to do that with her (for her)?

Yes, that is explicitly part of what she means. I need to demonstrate my commitment to moving. Other things--I need to be working on things at the house to (a) get it ready to sell and (b) make it as nice as it can be while she is there. And I need to be working on repairing our relationship. For her, this seems to mean physical intimacy, making her feel like she has a voice, that she is not invisible, that I am trying to meet her needs. There aren't a lot of specifics on what exactly that involves.

On what she is trying to let go of, a lot of it is stuff associated with moving--not having a job, moving away from friends, being a town she doesn't like, and forgiving me for doing this to her. I assume that's what she means. She is working on forgiving me for all the ways I have hurt her, mostly by moving here, but also by staying here and not doing all the things she wanted me to do while we have been here. These are just the flip side of things she wants me to be doing now.

She says she is working to forgive things that have happened, but does not want to go forward with a life where those things continue to happen.

[formflier]

She says she is working to forgive things that have happened, but does not want to go forward with a life where those things continue to happen.

This is a comment that if properly nudged might move things to a better place. 

What is SHE willing to work on?

FF

[stolencrumbs]

This is a comment that if properly nudged might move things to a better place. 

What is SHE willing to work on?

FF

I agree, but what is the proper nudge? My experience is that any suggestion that *we* need to work on things is not received well.

[Cat Familiar]

Have you thought out what would be the ideal relationship you would like to have with her?

[stolencrumbs]

Have you thought out what would be the ideal relationship you would like to have with her?

I don't know. I've probably thought more about what an ideal relationship for me would be, but that's not necessarily what an ideal relationship with *her* would be. I probably need to think more about what kind of relationship is possible with my wife, and go from there. I would take the relationship we had before things got so, so bad. There were problems then, too, but I think if I had known what was going on and had some of the tools to respond better, things could've been improved. I don't know how to get back to anything like a baseline at this point.

I met with the new T (she has been briefed by old T) for the first time this morning. I like her well enough so far. I'm hoping that it's actually good timing for a change. My wife seems to be in withdrawal mode, which has definitely changed the dynamic, and has given me more time and space. So maybe having new eyes on the situation at this moment will be helpful. She is encouraging me to take that time and space, continue to try to focus on myself, do what I am comfortable doing, and not "chase" my wife as she withdraws. That still doesn't feel right to me, but I'm giving it a go. 

[Red5]

...but I think if I had known what was going on and had some of the tools to respond better, things could've been improved.

I don't know how to get back to anything like a baseline at this point.

Don't we all Stolencrumbs, don't we all my friend.

She (New T) is encouraging me to take that time and space, continue to try to focus on myself, do what I am comfortable doing, and not "chase" my wife as she withdraws.

This is good advice imho, my coworker and I were talking this morning, about how a bad relationships drains you (think batteries)… at some point the "glow light" don't burn no more… we have to keep finding ways to recharge our batteries Stolen… otherwise, its no good, and neither are we to anyone else.

I'm struggling with this right now myself.

Kind Regards, Red5

[formflier]

  That still doesn't feel right to me, but I'm giving it a go. 

Good for you.

"Push/pull" can be a frustrating dynamic to work through.  Especially the "push" part, since most of us don't like being pushed away.

The generally accepted "proper" response to getting "pushed" is to not resist.  If you dig you heals in she is likely to push harder.  If you show that you are ok with space and she can push...she will likely feel more in control and eventually stop "pushing".

Same thing when she starts "pulling" you back in.  Don't rush towards her...let her be the one "pulling".  Letting her understand you won't resist..nor will you "rush towards her" will likely help her "calm" and "get to neutral".

Hang in there...

FF