Dealing With Disorder

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

During the relationship with my uNPD/BPD gf I was amazed by how each day was like Groundhog Day. On a Sunday evening she would be empathic and understanding (especially after an AA meeting) and then the following morning she would be the same angry, spiteful and unreasonable person I knew. After six months with her I was able to get her to look at her own behaviour by saying ‘we’ behave like this when we are emotionally upset. She had a habit of diagnosing everybody, especially me, as a Narcissist and would be unreasonable over any challenge to her behaviour. I started off as a bull in a china shop but ended up practising restraint and becoming more reasonable to compensate for her temper. I was essentially her caregiver.

She contacted me this morning asking to meet as she knows I have now broken up with my wife. I told her that I would meet her after my exercise class and she suddenly attacked me stating that I always expect her to fit around my schedule and I didn’t respect her arrangements. I pointed out that she asked to see me and my exercise class was during her working day. She told me where to go in an expletive laden message and promptly blocked me from WhatsApp. I know that at some point she will reinstate me and accuse me of blocking her.

I have not reacted in any way to her behaviour as I know any reply at all via another social media outlet will simply inflame the situation. I’ve come a long way since I first came in these boards when I was in an unhappy marriage, which I have only just extricated myself from, and I was involved with an uBPD woman. The more recent woman seems to be to have more NPD traits as she is so quick to rage and projects everything I say back to me with venom and a total lack of empathy.

Just wondering if anybody else has experience of NPD people and what the difference is with a BPD.

RF

[RomanticFool]

During the relationship with my uNPD/BPD gf I was amazed by how each day was like Groundhog Day. On a Sunday evening she would be empathic and understanding (especially after an AA meeting) and then the following morning she would be the same angry, spiteful and unreasonable person I knew. After six months with her I was able to get her to look at her own behaviour by saying ‘we’ behave like this when we are emotionally upset. She had a habit of diagnosing everybody, especially me, as a Narcissist and would be unreasonable over any challenge to her behaviour. I started off as a bull in a china shop but ended up practising restraint and becoming more reasonable to compensate for her temper. I was essentially her caregiver.

She contacted me this morning asking to meet as she knows I have now broken up with my wife. I told her that I would meet her after my exercise class and she suddenly attacked me stating that I always expect her to fit around my schedule and I didn’t respect her arrangements. I pointed out that she asked to see me and my exercise class was during her working day. She told me where to go in an expletive laden message and promptly blocked me from WhatsApp. I know that at some point she will reinstate me and accuse me of blocking her.

I have not reacted in any way to her behaviour as I know any reply at all via another social media outlet will simply inflame the situation. I’ve come a long way since I first came in these boards when I was in an unhappy marriage, which I have only just extricated myself from, and I was involved with an uBPD woman. The more recent woman seems to be to have more NPD traits as she is so quick to rage and projects everything I say back to me with venom and a total lack of empathy.

Just wondering if anybody else has experience of NPD people and what the difference is with a BPD.

RF

[Skip]

She contacted me this morning asking to meet as she knows I have now broken up with my wife. ..//.. I’ve come a long way since I first came in these boards when I was in an unhappy marriage, which I have only just extricated myself from, and I was involved with an uBPD woman.

What does this actually mean?  You marriage has been in turmoil for a while know, but neither of you have not moved out and filled for divorce in the past.

Just wondering if anybody else has experience of NPD people and what the difference is with a BPD.

Isn't her primary beef that you were not getting a divorce as you indicated when you and her met. That can create a lot of resentment in a women and suck all the oxygen out of the room in a relationship. I'm not justifying her behavior, just suggesting that the elephant in the room is this broken promise.

Wasn't she seeing someone else last time you were here?

Can yo give us a complete update so we can help you?

[RomanticFool]

The elephant in the room is no more. There are no broken promises because I told her not to contact me again when she announced she’d met somebody else. Then I received a message from her saying that she hasn’t really met anybody  but was just saying that to ‘stop me hassling her’ which wasn’t quite true.  In the meantime my wife and I have been talking as amicably as it’s possible to talk about breaking up. She has now moved out permanently.

I hadn’t contacted the new woman because I’ve learnt from the past relationship and despite having very strong feelings for her I decided that I’m not up for another ride on the BPD/NPD merry-go-round. So I am now single and emotionally fragile. I’m sharing on here to prevent myself from reacting inappropriately. I have tried to be as validating to the most recent woman as possible when she becomes emotionally dysregulated. She is highly intelligent and in many ways is a more typical presentation of a personality disorder than my ex.
The projection I witness is extraordinary and she knows a great deal about disorders and diagnoses everybody in site with NPD. I don’t know why she wanted to see me other than to know that I still care about her. I have wised up these last few months. I got tired of feeling lonely in my marriage and abused in the new relationship and so I took extremely painful action in extricating myself from all relationships.

As we have discovered on here, my own emotional reaction to provocation is not good. This woman is a first class trigger on just about anything I have ever confided in her and has weaponised sex. She told me today to go to Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous and wean myself off her. This is most likely projection on her part as she was pretty obsessive towards the end. This obsession would then be followed by apparent indifference and an out of sight out of mind attitude when she was with friends. She displayed object constancy issues and told me that when she isn’t with me she can’t feel my love and forgets what I look like. I adore this woman but am really wary now of this powerful neediness I have and question whether either one of us really loves the other or if we are in fact just filling a hole in each other’s psyche.

I am trying my best to get well. So please go gentle.

[Skip]

The elephant in the room is no more. There are no broken promises because I told her not to contact me again when she announced she’d met somebody else.

The elephant is probably still there. It's always a problem when we bring old baggage into a new relationship and that has surely shaped things. Your marriage won't cease to be an issue in any relationship until you are divorced for about 6-12 months... That's just the dating environment we are in. Don't be offended by that.

So... you are still talking.  

Do you want to cease contact? Do you want to fix this? Do you want her to cease contact for you?  Do you know?

Sounds like there is a lot of conflict right now... a lot of hurt.

[RomanticFool]

I don’t want to be in a relationship with somebody who has physically assaulted me, whatever the provocation she felt at the time. I don’t think her version of love is to do with looking out for somebody’s feelings in the way that she claims she does. It is self centred in nature and totally lacking any empathy or respect for my situation/emotional state. I am her emotional caretaker and any demands by me to look out for my own well being is met with anger and accusations of selfishness.

She is a remarkable woman in many ways, intelligent, attractive and loving but it is all conditional. Also every thought I have about her she thinks the same about me. She constantly  projects her own behaviour onto me.. She is great at arguing and as I said before is very clued up on Narcissism and so every NPD trait that she possesses will be projected onto me. She will ignore me all day and accuse me of silent treatment. She will organise something else to do on a day we had arranged to meet, deny we ever had an arrangement and then accuse me of gaslighting. When she physically attacked me she said I had been aggressive towards her. She constantly accuses me of talking to other women on WhatsApp when I am checking to see if she has left me messages. She tells me I am mean and nasty and then blocks me on WhatsApp...and so it goes on endlessly...I feel beaten up and upset daily but I miss her terribly.

She is clearly already at the devaluation stage as she immediately character assassinates me if I dare to challenge her on anything. On top of it all she sees herself as my victim and me as the aggressor. On a good day she will retract and may even apologise but it is short lived and the rage is never far away. With my own issues I am ill equipped to deal with this volatility but I am learning and I am proud of the fact I did not involve myself in an undignified exchange of bile today. No doubt she will accuse me of silent treatment despite having blocked me. She is a terror at times, wonderful at others. I have a strong feeling of what feels like love for her. She has weaponised sex and says I’m just using her despite endless reassurances, abstentions and discussions around the importance of showing care and consideration towards each other.

I’m sure it’s true that me being married has aggravated the situation but from what I’ve seen of her anger, it may actually have been a very short courtship had I been freely available to her.  She has no filter for the things she says to me, calling me a liar, untrustworthy and aggressive despite bending over backwards to be honest with her at every juncture, being there for her at times of stress and accompanying her on hospital appointments and caring for her emotional well being. I also reminded her that she physically attacked me something she now minimises and justifies. You cannot reason with Disorder but the longer I go on my journey the better I’m becoming at controlling my own issues. This stuff is very hard indeed especially when you adore somebody.

Another thing I find notable is that she almost sounds like a teenage girl when declaring love: ‘I love you so much’ or ‘I love you lots’  which will often be followed by a question like: ‘Is this what love is?’ or ‘Do other people do things like this?’ or ‘What do we do now?’ It’s like she is looking to me to learn how to behave. She will often then give me a detailed list of what love is and sometimes detail why she thinks I fall short. It’s like she is a woman in her head and a child in her emotional life. Very tough and confusing to deal with when in emotional pain myself or even when I’m not.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear RF-

I’m very sorry you’re so confused hurting so badly.  But in a sense, it’s almost a good thing that you and your W have separated, and that you’ve placed yourself on the detaching board.  You are also completely in control of contact from the AA girlfriend.  If you need to silence that, then silence that.  A big part of detaching is walking through the pain of missing someone...you know how that goes, and that pain will ebb.

Diagnosing “disorders” aside, harmful and hurtful behaviors cause deep damage to us, and we need to heal ourselves.  This is where we need to take control of ourselves.

Sometimes I stand alone in my belief that a physical attack is a “no go”, because I’ve been through that (more than once).  It’s a definite “no go” for me.  I pray it’s a “no go” for you, especially if she’s minimizing and blaming you for her actions. 

You, Skip and I have spoken a lot in the past...we know and understand your history.

You are seeing things pretty clearly in the here and now, at least in writing.  Are you reading your words?  They’re NOT for us...they’re for YOU.   You are very clear on GF’s behavior, and the damage to you.  You are stating “traits”; I don’t care about disorder labels right now, just the impact on you, RF.

In our past discussions, and they have been good and caring, we have so wanted you to heal and learn about you.  I have asked in the past for you to consider, not JUST consider, but to seek therapy.  I want you to get to the root of why you’re seeking out these type of women.

And RF, I’m not asking you to do something I’m not myself doing.  I’m in therapy trying to understand WHY I seek out men with PD’s.  Yea, I learned my H of 19 years also has strong NPD/BPD traits.  Yet I chose him; and then went on to choose BPDbf.  It’s helping.  It’s a process, and I’m not dead yet...

So please, RF.  Baby steps.  I’ve learned if I don’t take a different approach, nothing will change.  I HAVE to change how I see myself.  And from my heart, I believe you’ve got to change how you see yourself.  You deserve a love that embraces you.  Or nothing will change.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

Hey Gems,

Nice to hear from you again and thanks for taking the time and trouble to post. You have no idea how much a soothing word helps. I agree that it is a good thing that my wife and I have separated because our relationship was not fair on her. It was an extremely painful split and in many ways the guilt and shame about my behaviour increased when I saw her upset. That in turn has made me less inclined to tolerate abusive behaviour from the AA woman and I drew a very strong boundary which I knew she would kick into touch. I always felt I would end up alone and now that I'm here it's not as scary as I thought it would be but I am left with the pain of how I treated my wife. I also don't feel inclined to pick up with the new love because she is damaged and her behaviour is damaging my self esteem.

Two weeks into the relationship with the new love I told my wife about her and then backtracked. I knew that I didn't know her well enough to consider uprooting my life but it wasn't just that. From the outset I sensed her behaviour was not right. She was pushy and insensitive from the word go. Yes, she felt uncomfortable about me being married but there wasn't any real sense of empathy towards me regarding my situation, what I sensed in her was that she was going to get what she wanted, rather than we were going to have a loving relationship. I'm not sure how I sensed that, there was nothing overt at that stage, it was just her behaviour and emphasis on her needs. Because I was married I obviously made allowances for any bad behaviour from her on the grounds that she felt insecure. We love-bombed each other and things moved on very quickly. What I now feel about that relationship is that if I wasn't compensating for the fact I was married and trying to please her, I may have been more careful about my own love-bombing behaviour. I think me being married was extremely hard on her but it also made me overlook the red flags, though they materialised quickly enough and the physical attacks she made on me were just a couple pf months into the relationship. I agree with your boundary that a physical attack is a no go for you, it really is for me too. That is the main reason I am not going to pursue the relationship. Plus the disordered behaviour is going to make me miserable. I had enough the first time round with the previous gf. I am not going there again, however painful the split.

I would like nothing more than to go into therapy. The only reason I haven't is that I've been heavily in debt ever since coming onto these boards. Therapy is not cheap and I've had to put my mortgage payments first. Now that my wife is no longer contributing and a divorce on the horizon, it may still be beyond my financial means to get help. I work freelance in the arts and struggle at the best of times. That is the only reason I haven't pursued therapy. I would have done it two years ago had I been able to afford it because I agree with you that I need it.

RF

[Skip]

I think it would help to try and step away from the emotion and inventory your situation accurately so that members can help.

Affair: Detached or in conflict. It sounds like the latter. You are here when the conflict escalates (mid-March, Mid-February, Mid-November, Mid-October, Mid-Sept). This is probably a better topic for the conflicted board. You may want to approach this as a conflicted relationship, not a past relationship (unless you are really ready to let go).

Her affair - did it happen? what happened?

Physical abuse - what happened?

Marriage: Ending or in chaos Your marriage has been in limbo for year and while there are very significant issues, it doesn't seem to rise to the level of contacting divorce lawyers.

You: Are your relationship skills stable or are you difficult on a day to day basis? You have a history of being very reactionary, passionate, volatile. How have you been to your partners on a day to day basis?

Lot's of moving parts, RM. I think it will help to lay them out so that it becomes clearer on what you can do to bring more emotional richness to your life.

[formflier]

How does further contact of any sort with this woman move you to a healthier place in your life?

I'm trying to grasp your "direction" or "thinking" for reaching out so we can give more relevant advice.

FF

[RomanticFool]

You: Are your relationship skills stable or are you difficult on a day to day basis? You have a history of being very reactionary, passionate, volatile. How have you been to your partners on a day to day basis?

I can be volatile. With my wife we both started off a bit volatile with each other but in the end found a way of being calm with each other.  When my significant other is calm I can go for years without any significant emotional upset.

However, when I become emotionally involved with people who are unreasonable my emotions go to a dark place. I have learnt not to react and have practised restraint during the last six months with the AA woman.

I look at past relationships and what I see more than anything is emotional pain. I've often had a chasm of loneliness and emptiness in my life and the early stages of some relationships have provided me with some degree of happiness. We all experience limerence in the early stages and sometimes it turns to love and sometimes it goes out as soon as the passion dies. I have rarely walked away from long term relationships. I have been dumped by just about every long term partner I've been involved with except my wife.

I pretty much know what my issues are. There is some abandonment fear and some emotional volatility and a great deal of yearning goes on in me. When I get involved in a passionate relationship and somebody who I am attracted to shows me love and affection I always fall for them heavily. What I have discovered is that the people who show that much 'love' and affection early on are usually damaged. There is my conundrum. I either end up crying into my coffee or bored. The latest woman was very aware of all of these issues and it was my hope that we could work together on ourselves and come to an understanding. Unfortunately she is too volatile and unreasonable. She thinks the same of me.

How does further contact of any sort with this woman move you to a healthier place in your life?

I'm trying to grasp your "direction" or "thinking" for reaching out so we can give more relevant advice.

There is no direction to my thinking. I fell for her and once again I have a broken heart. I cannot have a relationship somebody who is so in denial about her own behaviour and then projects all of her traits onto me. It is a real shame because I adore her and I think if I was prepared to be her caretaker we could have some wonderful years together. But I know too much about what her behaviours are and I know her anger is going to ruin it at some point down the line. I also know that my own reaction to her is going to trigger her.

I came back on here because I am in pain and I miss the physical and emotional contact of her. But I know she is not capable of real love or empathy and it's most likely going to end in disaster if I take up with her again.

I think I have come on here to stop myself from pursuing her. A few weeks ago I didn't see her for 12 days and I ended up sobbing down the phone to her. I need to avoid that for my own sanity and emotional sobriety. I am in a very dark and dangerous place right now.

[Skip]

From prior conversations, you've talked about having your own "BPD" tendencies - volatile relationships, emptiness, trust isssues, fear of abandonment, etc. Ultimately, you will need to address you as much of what fuels you in love and sex, destroys you. As you say,  "I either end up crying into my coffee or bored."

But for now, the question is how to find an emotionally stable place.  As you say, you are in a dark place and that is not good.

You hung in on the last affair long after it was enjoyable for you... the was months of pain and yet, you couldn't let go.

What do you think you can do? What do you think you don't have the  willpower to do?

[RomanticFool]

I don’t understand the question about willpower. I think I’ve done everything I can to achieve emotional sobriety. I just need to avoid disordered people.

As far as BPD goes, I doubt very much whether any therapist would diagnose me. I don’t really have an unstable self image which is the crux of the disorder. I have a bit of emotional instability but in all honesty it has only reared it’s head in a traumatic way when I got involved with disordered people. I think if I meet somebody healthy who doesn’t try to provoke me in unreasonable ways, I am pretty much a chilled out person.

Given my knowledge of the AA programme, my increasing awareness of my own foibles and an insight into what a disordered person looks like, I would hope my future will include a healthy woman for a change. I think some of my past volatility in my youth was definitely drinking related but also the abandonment fears have always been present.

I have shown a lot of restraint over the past six months in the face of extreme provocation. I think it’s always important to look at my own behaviour which I do constantly. However, it is also crucial that the next person I get involved with doesn’t have the same emotional instability that I’ve exposed myself to during my last two affairs.

I would like to address why I keep getting drawn to women who are incapable of selfless love and why my co-dependency makes me feel so soulless and bereft.

[formflier]

I have shown a lot of restraint over the past six months in the face of extreme provocation. I think it’s always important to look at my own behaviour which I do constantly.  

If you are showing restraint...and  also you realize you shouldn't be in relationships with disordered people...and also you realize she falls somewhere in that category of disordered...and also you had a hard time being away from her at the 12 day point.

I'm struggling to wrap my head around this and see this as "restraint."

What am I missing as I examine this?  

FF

[RomanticFool]

Form flier,

I’m talking about restraint in terms of not reacting to provocation, especially when she physically assaulted me and in the face of constant aggression from her and then projection that it’s me who is aggressive.

The further restraint I’ve shown is not to pursue a woman I’m crazy about because I know she is bad for me.

[formflier]

Form flier,

I’m talking about restraint in terms of not reacting to provocation, especially when she physically assaulted me and in the face of constant aggression from her and then projection that it’s me who is aggressive.

The further restraint I’ve shown is not to pursue a woman I’m crazy about because I know she is bad for me.

Can you have restraint in having contact with them?  Have you tried?

Listen...let's suppose you stick around for a month or to and focus on expanding the restraint you express you have to all areas of your life. 

If that happened..what do you think your life would be like?

FF

[Skip]

She then took issue with the notion that she has been pressuring me to end the marriage and suddenly erupted into a rage. It scared the living hell out of me as she physically attacked and caught me in the face with her hand. To be fair to her I think she was trying to grab my chest but her hand went into my face instead. Her rage was like nothing I've experienced and she screamed at me to get out of her house.

I've seen her get upset in this way twice before but not to the extent that happened yesterday. Neither has she been physical with me before.

You have mentioned the physical attacks in almost every post. This is seems to be a big point right now. Can you tell us more about the physical attacks?

In reading your posts, this sounds more like in-relationship conflict, not a separating of ways. The marriage and trust is now a huge sticking point that lies behind the conflict. Permanant damage is starting to set in.  On the marriage front, recovery sounds impossible at this point, tensions are higher, but there is no divorce in process... and your heart has never been in it.

You sound convinced that the problem is your primarily your partner's mental health and disposition... but you love her... and so you push onward.

Everyone is frustrated. Yet, you are not actively pursuing divorce. Why?

There is a reason.

Remember the three-legged stools discussions we had back in 2017. The problem with affairs is the neither partner represents a full "package" or someone you could build a life with... it only works as a threesome... take one leg away, the stool falls. There is something valuable in each you don't want to let go of. There is a problem with each and a reason you don't fully commit to one.

Think about it, RM. There has been infidelity in your marriage for most of its duration. Your and your wife did not have a complete relationship. And your latest affair partner is someone you met at AA who, from the beginning, you thought had mental issues and who thought you had mental issues... and it does not stand as a complete relationship.

Do you think (honest question), that it is possible to have a selfless-love under the circumstances? 

[Enabler]

Hey RomanticFool,

I wonder if I can lob another couple of words into the mix... DISTRESS TOLERANCE... Most people see distress tolerance as an inability to handle bad things, however I would argue that it also includes inability to miss out on enjoyable things that aren't good for us. A classic example being FOMO (Fear of missing out).

From what I have read about your posts, as much as you can tolerate the distress of physical violence you can't tolerate the distress of missing out on a potential romantic moment... and no, I'm not just referring to you getting your end away, I'm likely talking about someone buffing your ego. Can you tolerate the distress of seeing through these 'sweet nothings' and romantic manipulation to see these peoples behaviours for what they are. Is this any different from a impulsive spender being unable to walk past a shop without buying a 'bargain' or a drinker being able to pass a pub without having 'a swift half'. It requires DISTRESS to adhere to the personal values we say we believe in, it is DISTRESSING when an attractive woman offers it on a plate but we know we shouldn't because we're married.

Distress doesn't just need to be a person threatening us, or a situation resulting in us feeling sadness. Lust and greed can be just as distressing.

Enabler

[RomanticFool]

Thanks for the input guys. I'll address your points here.

Can you have restraint in having contact with them?  Have you tried?

Listen...let's suppose you stick around for a month or to and focus on expanding the restraint you express you have to all areas of your life.  

If that happened..what do you think your life would be like?

I am restraining myself from contacting the AA woman. It's hell believe me because I want her. I'm going to find out what my life will look like.

You have mentioned the physical attacks in almost every post. This is seems to be a big point right now. Can you tell us more about the physical attacks?

In reading your posts, this sounds more like in-relationship conflict, not a separating of ways

The physical attacks shocked me which is why I keep mentioning them. I haven't been punched in the face since school days and for it to be a woman who did it shook me to my core. They occurred during an argument about her constantly referring to me as a Narcissist and I pointed out that her own behaviour was expressing rage, not mine. She erupted and attacked me physically. It happened three times. The first two times she hit me in the chest and one of the punches ricocheted into my jaw. The third time she punched me square in the face. Each time around her insistence that I am a Narcissist and me verbally defending myself. As I mentioned before, she diagnoses anybody she has an issue with the same way. I found it aggressive and frightening. I have never experienced that in a relationship before.

The marriage and trust is now a huge sticking point that lies behind the conflict. Permanant damage is starting to set in.  On the marriage front, recovery sounds impossible at this point, tensions are higher, but there is no divorce in process... and your heart has never been in it.

Just to clarify, I am not seeing the AA woman. She tried to make contact and then blocked me. I have now blocked her on all forms of communication. I don't want that darkness back in my life. Yes, the marriage was a huge issue and I agree that permanent damage had set in. My marriage is over. We will be getting divorced in due course.

You sound convinced that the problem is your primarily your partner's mental health and disposition... but you love her... and so you push onward.

I think I had a big part to play in it too. I kept the relationship going because I fell for her and I could see that she was getting distressed due to me being married. In the end I decided not to keep pursuing her because it was going from bad to worse. I have come on here again so I don't break my resolve. It's not easy because I still want her.

Everyone is frustrated. Yet, you are not actively pursuing divorce. Why?

There is a reason.

As I said above, we will get divorced. I need to catch my breath with everything and get some emotional sobriety.

Remember the three-legged stools discussions we had back in 2017. The problem with affairs is the neither partner represents a full "package" or someone you could build a life with... it only works as a threesome... take one leg away, the stool falls. There is something valuable in each you don't want to let go of. There is a problem with each and a reason you don't fully commit to one.

I will never forget the three legged stool. It was a major part of both the affairs I had. I didn't want to let either one of these women go. I miss my wife but in the end I couldn't bear what I was doing to her and so I bit the bullet and let the marriage go.

The thing about commitment is interesting to me. I spent twelve years with my wife and was never fully committed because we never had a strong physical attraction. The AA woman seemed an ideal partner when we first met, but it soon became clear I'd have to be her emotional caretaker and I'm not equipped to do that.

Think about it, RM. There has been infidelity in your marriage for most of its duration. Your and your wife did not have a complete relationship. And your latest affair partner is someone you met at AA who, from the beginning, you thought had mental issues and who thought you had mental issues... and it does not stand as a complete relationship.

Do you think (honest question), that it is possible to have a selfless-love under the circumstances?

When you put it like that is does sound absurd that I was expecting the AA woman to behave in a stable way. Had I been single, emotionally calm at all times and completely loving towards her, I'd still have had my work cut out to make the relationship work. However much the situation was not ideal for love to flourish, I believe our dark sides would have clashed in the end anyway. People with inner rage issues are not easy bedfellows. As the song goes "when a tornado meets a volcano..."

I wonder if I can lob another couple of words into the mix... DISTRESS TOLERANCE... Most people see distress tolerance as an inability to handle bad things, however I would argue that it also includes inability to miss out on enjoyable things that aren't good for us. A classic example being FOMO (Fear of missing out).

From what I have read about your posts, as much as you can tolerate the distress of physical violence you can't tolerate the distress of missing out on a potential romantic moment... and no, I'm not just referring to you getting your end away, I'm likely talking about someone buffing your ego. Can you tolerate the distress of seeing through these 'sweet nothings' and romantic manipulation to see these peoples behaviours for what they are. Is this any different from a impulsive spender being unable to walk past a shop without buying a 'bargain' or a drinker being able to pass a pub without having 'a swift half'. It requires DISTRESS to adhere to the personal values we say we believe in, it is DISTRESSING when an attractive woman offers it on a plate but we know we shouldn't because we're married.

Distress doesn't just need to be a person threatening us, or a situation resulting in us feeling sadness. Lust and greed can be just as distressing.

This has blown my mind a little. I've never thought about distress tolerance before and it rings a massive bell. I think fear of missing out for me is connected to low self esteem. I meet women who I consider to be incredible in many ways and I instantly feel that I've lucked out by the fact they find me attractive and plunge in. When it all goes wrong I can't let them go. This has been the pattern of my life. What I'm most fearful of missing out on is the company and sense of well being I get with the person. Sex also is a powerful pull but it is secondary to the idea that these women appear to be my soulmates. Perhaps it is simply ego buffing, I don't know. But cuddling up to somebody you find beauty in seems to be a great reason for living. The best moments of my life have been the snuggles, closeness and sense of empathic connection rather than the sex. I am always shocked at how quickly it seems to go to the dark side after such incredible closeness. Perhaps with a disordered person I am mistaking neediness for love. Perhaps the same with myself. But it sure feels amazing to be in love/limerence with a beautiful soul.

I did used to attend Sex And Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA) and got alot of identification with others, though I didn't like the slight weirdness of the organisation. I find AA much better recovery. I have long thought that my behaviour in the early stages of relationships is addictive in nature. It just seems that something that feels so amazing cannot possibly be wrong. I guess junkies say that about heroin too.

Lust and greed...I guess they're the same things. I'm greedy for love.

[Skip]

A cause of a lot of your frustration is the marriage. What is holding you up from filing for divorce? That would seem to be the best for both of you.

[Enabler]

Okay, the next 2 words, DELAYED GRATIFICATION. This is a life skill that children develop. The old test of telling a child they can have 1 sweet now or they can have 10 in 5 minutes time, he older a child gets the more probable they will wait the 5 minutes for the greater gain. It’s takes DISTRESS TOLLERANCE  to OBSTAIN and avoid the temptation to take the 1 sweet now, rather than have to wait a laborious amount of time for the 10. You seem to be dazzled by the flashing lights and although have a high degree of the curtainty with regards to the outcome, you are unable to stop yourself... be that just for a warm cuddle... and I say ‘just’, I’ve not had any intimacy for 2.5yrs and can still remember the awesomeness of a warm cuddle... and other things. Could I have gone to seek it elsewhere? Hell yeah. Has it taken an enormous amount of tollerance of distress? Hell yes.

I’d like to point out that I’m not making a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ judgement here regarding affairs, it’s horses for courses as far as I’m concerned UNLESS that is that someone is acting out of their inability to stop themselves. Let me put this another way, cocaine is pretty great, I mean some people think it’s the bees knees... actually quite a few people do. Some people are able to treat it like champagne, they sniff a bit here and there as and when they are out on a night out... BUT, if they’re out with the kids they know it’s not in their best interests to partake, even if there’s a bit going round and they reeeeeeeeeally fancy some. They control it, it doesn’t control them.

Is your inability to delay gratification for the greater good (arguably rebuilding your marriage) caused by your inability to tolerate distress? FOr what it’s worth I believe this is HUGE... GLOBAL EPIDEMIC PROPORTIONS. Secular culture trains us to live lives that are shallow and empty filled with instant gratification, you’re certainly not alone my friend. Marriage, kids, peace and stability all require HUGE amounts of distress tollerance and delayed gratification, why? Because they all involve placing other people’s needs in-line if not before your own... and sometimes that means missing out on some really really fun stuff, like naked cuddles.

You see alcohol, drugs and excessive spending as ‘bad’ and therefore you have gone to seek treatment for them, but the root cause ‘poor distress tollerance’ is also playing havoc with you inability to moderate consuming what you call good. Food is good, eat too much and eat too much of the wrong stuff and it can kill you.

Enabler

[formflier]

As I said above, we will get divorced. I need to catch my breath with everything and get some emotional sobriety.
 

Why?

If the marriage is over and you will get divorced how does catching your breath help?

How does emotional sobriety help?

If your wife is ready to go and you are ready to go, wouldn't it be wise to let the lawyers sort it out "SO THAT" you can start to get emotional sobriety?

Think about that for a minute.  What will you do when you are "unattached" to anyone?  What will you do when you can fully give yourself to someone new?

FF

[RomanticFool]

Formflier,

It’s the way we want to do things. My wife doesn’t want a lawyer involved.

[Enabler]

FF, it can be done this way in the UK... Legal mediators, individuals doing the petitions for divorce. Relatively simple but for being emotionally challenging. This is the route my W is currently taking.

Lawyers tend to be more decisive but burn cash like crazy.

Enabler

[Skip]

As I said above, we will get divorced. I need to catch my breath with everything and get some emotional sobriety.

I get that. You are i emotional crisis with the affair partner and haven't cleared that hurdle.

Here is the message to you.

I think now, you can see why everyone encouraged you to either commit to your wife or start the divorce after your last affair... and not jump into another relationship and carry that baggage in.

It is done. This is not a criticism, just a recap. Learn from where you have been,

Can you avoid not repeating? Can you take the time to make a transition.

1. The divorce is going to take time. 2. After it is final, it will really help to get into a divorce recovery program. They will help with the loss transition, with the acclimating yourself to a single life/income, and they will help you rethink your values and give guidance on how to date healthy. 3. There is some work that you need to do personally as it related to values, character, etc.  You've lived a very deceptive life for a long time and have a lot of years of dating mentally ill people. 4. When dating, a lot of "healthy" people will avoid anyone not at least a year out of their marriage. They don't want to be the rebound as those have high failure rates. 5. Dating these days and in your age group can take 6-12 months to find someone you can be serious with and that wants to be serious with you - older women are not naive.

So you are looking at a 3 year transition, if you go the healthy way. In that transition, there is a period of alone time.  There is also a period of light dating where you don't have the rapid accent into a questionable relationship based mostly on sexual attraction/need.

You asked about "healthy".  This is a that map.  Dating is harder in your age group.  The percentage of wounded/broken people is higher.  The time to turn this around is not months, but a couple of years.

See why it is important to get the divorce process started?  It's step 1.

[formflier]

It’s the way we want to do things. My wife doesn’t want a lawyer involved.

I wasn't referring to lawyers or no lawyers.  I was referring to starting or waiting to start after (fill in the blank).

As far as "catching your breath".  I would suggest catching it this weekend.  Then Monday morning move forward towards your new life.  What does moving forward look like?  What practical step can you take on Monday?


See Skip's last comment about getting started.  I would add a comment about keeping momentum going so you can get done with divorce and start a different path.

A path without entanglements, deception and "reasons" for (fill in the blank).


FF