Article my wife sent me this morning

[formflier]

Together in Bed, Apart in Soul
Four Steps to Spiritual Intimacy in Marriage

So, my wife sends me this article this morning.   What is a good or healthy response?

She sends me link and the following email.

Just sent you a good article...Together in bed, apart in soul.

Thanks for sending it, I'll put it on my reading list.  I've read a couple lately I've been thinking of sending your way, I'll try to get them heading your way later today.  Love, FF

The sad relationship patter for us is to increase "intimacy" around God/Biblical things leads to increased rocking and rolling in the relationship.  Less "intimacy" leads to a much calmer relationship.Thoughts?

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

If you were to put into practice the things laid out in the article, how do you see that playing out?

Do you think this is what she wants to try to start doing with you?

[formflier]

I know she does.  And it would go fine for a bit

Then..."FF is Jesus Christ"..."FF is not a Christian"..."FF is (fill in the blank)"

Weird applications of "do unto others".

Like...she does something around the house and I mirror it.  She goes ballistic and says I should treat her the way I want to be treated.  I say.."I'm fine with doing it your way..I was simply mirroring and applying do unto others."

"If you don't like (fill in the blank) shouldn't you do it that way to me, then I would mirror it back" (FF accused of heresy..misapplication of scripture..etc etc.

Basically...I know exactly..precisely the things that are blocking our "spiritual intimacy".  I'm open to working on those in an ethical fashion..she's not.

Yeah..that's complicated.  I'm wondering if I should send her something back asking her what she wants me to understand from the article..and see where it goes.

FF

[Skip]

Your response sounds emotionally unavailable and defensive. Is this how you feel?

[formflier]

Emotionally unavailable to be "religiously close" with my wife.   Yes..that's how I "feel". 

Defensive:  I certainly don't feel defensive about it.   I feel sad about it, since I do have fond memories of when we were close.

FF

[GaGrl]

Does your wife differentiate between "religious" and "spiritual"?

[formflier]

I'm sure she does.

She really wouldn't use those words.  "Biblical" is her go to word.  Very black and white.  If it's "Biblical" it's 100% great..all in.  If it's not, it's 100% bad...must be excised from existence.

That would work out if she would consistently go with a "plain reading" of the Bible.  When there is a dysregulation, she is the one and only judge of what's Biblical or not, regardless of what the text actually says.

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

How would you like to work on the things that are blocking your "spiritual intimacy"?

[formflier]

How would you like to work on the things that are blocking your "spiritual intimacy"?

 Be able to have conversations where I'm not called Jesus Christ, told I'm not a Christian, laughed at and listen to her use the Lord's name in vain when I ask for forgiveness.

I'm not in control of any of those things...therefore I focus on what I can control, which is limit my "spiritual intimacy" to people that have earned my trust to be vulnerable with...

FF

[Red5]

"Biblical" is her go to word.  Very black and white.  If it's "Biblical" it's 100% great...all in.  If it's not, it's 100% bad...must be excised from existence.

That would work out if she would consistently go with a "plain reading" of the Bible.  When there is a dysregulation, she is the one and only judge of what's Biblical or not, regardless of what the text actually says.

Formflier,

I been reading about 'talionic thinking' lately… you know, "black and white"… "rigidity in thinking"… pw/BPD will often default to this… my wife certainly does.

What Skip wrote up there…

Your response sounds emotionally unavailable and defensive. Is this how you feel?

Brother, careful with that… it got me, don't want that to happen to others…

"Rigidity"… rigid and uncompromising thinking... that's my wife… she's always been like that… and I fought her tooth and nail, down to the barbed wire… for years… wouldn't know a "tool" if I tripped over it… better late than never I guess.

More random "Red5 reading"… pw/BPD have to control, its part of their survival, we all know this, especially you Formflier… if they aren't allowed to control (boundary?)… then they pull out the flamethrower, of which you've mentioned before… and "whoosh"… scorched earth… ie' the "divorce card"…

… seems certain type model series pw/BPD have to always "win" and must always be right, and the judge, tax collector, and Officer of the Day… ie' talionic thinking (Old Testament Bible), rigid thought process, no compromise… which is reversed wired to "intimacy"… maybe this is all part of your Wife's mental circuitry… if so, all you have to do is study the schematics

…tough stuff Skipper!

We have all learned a lot from you Formflier… and I'm taking notes right now.

Red5

[formflier]

I try to "not be rigid" in many areas of my life, I struggle to understand how my life improves by "removing rigidity" from the "religious boundaries" I am using.

 I'm certainly not trying to force her to believe/act a certain way, I'm making firm decisions about the things I will be part of.  She can choose to come along, or not.

FF

[Red5]

I try to "not be rigid" in many areas of my life,

Good SOP (standard operating procedures), what do they say about "plans"… that they never survive the initial contact with ____. I too try not to be so rigid as well these daze, although that was a hard lesson for a former Marine to learn, & still learning that one.

I struggle to understand how my life improves by "removing rigidity" from the "religious boundaries" I am using.

… "religious boundaries" = morals, which are part of the operating software of our (your) boundaries… the old "go-nogo" checklist.

I'm certainly not trying to force her to believe/act a certain way,

None (the Non) of us ever are… we wont ever "change" them, volumes have been written in regards to this...

I'm making firm decisions about the things I will be part of. 

Another tough one I had to learn, and I'm still learning… I read today… it you are in the "no contact zone", ie' your pw/BPD has you "black"… being "rigid", and "uncompromising"... and isn't speaking to you, then by all means!... go about the plan of the day… don't sit there and dwell, and pine for them… get 'busy', and turn-to... with the business of day to day life… set the example, and live "well".

… eggshells & landmines… "all ahead slow".

Red5

[empath]

FF, I'm not sure that there's a "good" way to respond to the article because it comes from the assumption that the partners are people of "good will" as one of my friends described. Have you described the boundary that you have around religious matters to FFw?

[formflier]

Not in as much detail as I have here...because, even after promises to listen...overtalk starts happening and it's off to the races. 

I did "confront" her in great detail about the last time I asked for forgiveness and her response was laughter and using the Lords name in vain.  She kept repeating that she didn't laugh.

I did let her know that until we reconciled from that event our "religious intimacy" would be limited.

Her "modus operindai" would be to act like that was dealt with and forgiven...and therefor I'm not allowed to bring up a forgiven item or some other smoke and mirror thing.

So...long winded answer to say she is aware my "distance" is because of her action/words.

FF

[empath]

Her "modus operindai" would be to act like that was dealt with and forgiven...and therefor I'm not allowed to bring up a forgiven item or some other smoke and mirror thing.

It doesn't sound like it was "dealt with" -- but, she probably wouldn't agree with that.

I suppose you could remind her of the boundary.

[GaGrl]

FF, do you consider your marriage, as it stands today, to be a Biblical marriage?

If not, would you say that to your wife, or would that be explosive?

[formflier]

Not really. 

On the "big issues" she does "respect me" and "backs down" (big issue like are you going to hold a public "trial"/"confessional" for D13)...I stated my religious grounds for not doing it and shut it down.  She did relent.

I would say we are 30-40% of a Biblical marriage (trying to stay away from black and white..yes or no)

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, rather than you have a calculated response, what if you asked her to sit down with you and explain what the article means to her?

I think Skip put it correctly- Your response sounds emotionally unavailable and defensive. Is this how you feel?

I can relate to this, and I am not in a Biblical marriage by the way your church denomination practices it. But I have also read religious material that describes issues in a secular marriage or marriage in other religions/denominations in Biblical terms.

Spiritual intimacy can be experienced as emotional intimacy. That is universal to romantic relationships. The opening paragraph of the article- not being able to agree on things. The statement : she has her Bible study, I have mine. The article isn't discussing a marriage with a person with BPD. It's an issue for some marriages without it as well.

What I think this comes down to is vulnerability. You can't be vulnerable with her, and for reasons that make sense. Without vulnerability, emotional intimacy is hard to establish. I also think a pwBPD is not able to be emotionally vulnerable either- and this is part of the push pull/control. When she feels too vulnerable, she pulls back, lashes out.

The "Jesus" comment, the "you are not a Christian" comment is, IMHO, word vomit, and once the words are out and she feels better, it is as if all is OK. She feels OK, she assumes you do too. These comments are her own pain- so she chooses words that are painful for you. They aren't meant to be blasphemous, but hurtful. The Bible is a sensitive subject for the two of you. You sometimes "fight" through Bible verses and religion because it is sensitive.

My H has said similar hurtful things but he doesn't choose religion as it isn't the issue we have the most difficulty with. Yet, the words have been equally hurtful in that they address issues that matter to me. My mother has chosen the most hurtful things she could say on behalf of my now deceased father to me- because she knows he was very important to me and it is probably the meanest thing she can think of in the moment. I don't believe your wife's comment about Jesus was about Jesus- but a hurtful comment to you. Yet, it is almost impossible to get an apology for these types of comments. When they are made, the person is in victim mode, and truly feels they are deserved. Once it's done, it's emotionally over for them, or they feel shame for them and want it all to be forgotten.

I will fully admit to being less emotionally vulnerable and defensive due to these kinds of words from my H. It is difficult to hear these things over the years and not feel defensive. It was an MC who helped me to not add meaning to them and this has helped me to not take them personally. In turn, this has helped the relationship.

The words are hurtful if we let them be but we can work on this. I started with the "pink elephant" idea- substituting that for the insult. What if your wife said you were a pink elephant instead of her comment? You'd let that roll off your back. If we are able to not be emotionally reactive to the comments, and not let them hurt us, it helps with our ability to be emotionally available. Your wife may still want this, even if her capacity to do it isn't great.

[formflier]

And...to make sure we are apples to apples..., you husband gathered your children and explained to them that you were a pink elephant...and all the bad stuff that goes with that.

These things happen when we become "emotionally close" around religious issues, when we are NOT emotionally close, I can't think of one time crazy things like this come out of her mouth regarding religion.

I completely agree that soon after the things came out of her mouth it was likely over for her..for that moment.

Switching gears.  I let her know I wanted to listen to her thoughts about the article, particularly what was meaningful to her.  I also sent her a podcast I recently found powerful.  She hasn't responded.  (I sent this last afternoon/evening).  She seemed particularly "remote" last night.

This morning she was particularly clingy, lots of talking about how teachers are out to get her..."stack" her classroom against her.  As I was in the other room gathering some things to put in the dishwasher I heard her say "Yep...kick me out of the house and get back to doing whatever you want."

I entered the room...saw it was only my wife, and continued on with the prior conversation, which she seemed happy to do.

Twighlight zone...BPD zone..whatever.

FF

[Notwendy]

FF- he has not ever done that, thank goodness and I don't think he would. He's conscientious about triangulating with the kids. The issues are mainly between the two of us. He says hurtful things to me in the heat of the moment, but leaves them out of it thank goodness. He has sometimes mentioned them as a hurtful comment, but he doesn't say things in front of them.

The kids are a bottom line for me. Having grown up with a BPD mother, this is a deal breaker for me. One of the reasons I feel our marriage is workable is that he is good to the kids.

Full  blown BPD mother does this. She pulled me aside many times to tell me bad things about my father, also painted me black to him, and to anyone else she wanted to say things too. She has also taken my H aside to try to badmouth me to him. She's tried it with my kids, so my approach has been to not ever let her be alone with them. Now that they are older, they know about BPD and so this doesn't really work with them.

I don't know how I would handle it if my H did this. I don't think I would be married to him but if I did choose to stay, I don't know if I could control it either. Having grown up with this though, I don't know if it was as damaging in the long run compared to keeping my mother's issues a secret. By my teen years, I could see her behavior was not normal, and neither were the things he said to me. I could see how my father behaved. He was a good man. Yes, there were issues with co-dependency, but he role modeled good values. I think your kids will see that you are an upright person over time no matter what your wife says. Yet, I also know that these comments can be damaging in some cases- so I would remain concerned too.

[formflier]

So...while I miss the emotional closeness with my wife, especially around Christian things, it is undeniable there is  correlation between "closeness" and acting out. 

I would go so far as to say "causation".

I don't control what my wife says, but I do "get a vote", in essence I "control" (at least 50%) the emotional closeness regarding Christian things...our "Christian relationship".

So...in a sense I "control" the amount of crazy religious things my kids are told, many of them about me.

Therefore, since my wife is not interested in controlling herself..working on herself, I choose a pathway of less religious crazy for my kids.

I think that gives them the best chance of getting to adulthood and forming an independent relationship with God in a healthy way.  (I get it sadly the deck is stacked against them...I'm trying to make as much lemonade with the lemons I have).

FF

[Notwendy]

From your posts about what your wife says, I think she does invite God/Bible into your marriage as a third party on the Karpman triangle. It makes sense that a person who has dysfunctional relationships would also have a dysfunctional relationship with God.

So you have good reason to minimize the Bible talking in your home, as it also includes statements that you don't condone. On the other hand, your wife could still want spiritual intimacy. People want what they want, but that doesn't mean you provide this with her if it isn't something you think is a good thing to do.

I won't suggest you change your ideal of a Biblical marriage. I think people have the right to choose their set of religious beliefs ( as long as they are legal  ) but there are other arrangements of religious marriages. Not all couples talk about the Bible together. It would be nice, but perhaps it is too emotionally laden a topic. For me personally ( and that doesn't mean you or others)- living it is better than speaking it. I uphold my marital vows- try my best to live according to the values as stated in the Bible- how we treat others, being trustworthy and set an example for the kids.

I don't know a lot of couples who are perfectly spiritually matched but they still make it work - because they can make other things work too. I find it difficult to discuss anything emotional with my H. It's as if he is triggered by the emotion I display or tone of my voice. Even if I am not discussing him, any agitation or distress on my part triggers his anger. He has to stop it, stomp it out. I think it makes him uncomfortable so he gets angry. To me that's adding hurt to the situation, but I try to see the larger picture. It's not me, it's how he feels when he's with me and I'm upset about something. It's worse if that something is him.

So, we can argue over paint colors, or where to retire someday, or anything and if it's emotional to me- it's a set up. Religion is an emotional topic in your family.

I've known couples of different religions, couples of same religion when one is more devout than the other and wants to do more - while the other one doesn't. I suspect these situations have conflicts, but I think their ability to resolve these conflicts depends on their own abilities to resolve any conflicts- communication and emotional regulation skills. Your wife doesn't have good emotional regulation skills. You are the one to bring this to the marriage. It isn't this one issue. It's how you resolve all issues.

[empath]

FF, recently, I recognized that the point where things started going downhill quickly with my h was when he became more involved in leadership at church. That was when the threats of divorce started and the increasing physical violence. He triangulated the church leadership and his parents against me - the people he could get an audience with. It's part of the reason that I knew I needed to stay away from his church.

I miss being able to share that part of my life with him; it's hard to be a grey rock in that area because it is such an important part of my life.

[formflier]

My P says exactly the same thing...that FFw tries (and does) triangulate with God.  Then she tries to "weaponize" scripture (putting God in the persecutor role I would guess).

The sadness for me is I have many years of really fond memories of closeness.  I want that to return, yet clearly understand the downsides to trying to get it to return, when FFw is not the least bit introspective about her own part in this.  "not the least bit" might be a bit strong, but certainly there is no consistency.

FF

[Red5]

I think Skip put it correctly- Your response sounds emotionally unavailable and defensive. Is this how you feel?

I will fully admit to being less emotionally vulnerable and defensive due to these kinds of words from my H.

It is difficult to hear these things over the years and not feel defensive.

It was an MC who helped me to not add meaning to them and this has helped me to not take them personally. In turn, this has helped the relationship.

I discussed this with "T" (Major Tom) last week… and he said;… "you went into survival mode Red, that's what you needed to do at the time, she did not give you much choice"…

Hmmm, "survival mode" {is} "emotionally unavailable"… that's a two edged sword, either way you go with it.

Red5

[I Am Redeemed]

You know, now that I think about it, any time stbx and I would try to study the Bible together, or do a devotional or watch a biblical marriage sermon or attend a biblical marriage conference, whatever, it seemed that he always had the unspoken agenda of getting me to "get it"; whatever "it" was, he thought that I was the one who needed to learn it so I could treat him better. He would take things that "we" learned and use them against me later to point out how I was falling short, was a hypocrite, etc. Never turned the mirror on himself through the Word.

Instead of it bringing us closer, it just added more weapons to his arsenal. The triangulation with God makes sense. He only brought God in when it supported his perceptions of me being wrong and him being right.

[Red5]

He only brought God in when it supported his perceptions of me being wrong and him being right.

My uBPDw (separated) has told me numerous times… (quote)… "you can take your (autistic) Son to Church as much as you like, but it will never make up for how you've treated your wife"… (end-quote).

She also… is not the least bit introspective about her own part in this, "not the least bit"…

I continue to try and "fix" me… sometimes I think she is right, I dunno, I seem to be running out of railroad track these days.

I hope and pray that you do get back to (real time) really fond memories of closeness with your Wife one day Formflier… I follow you closely here, you've a lot on your plate my friend… "quite frankly" sometimes I don't know how you seem to manage it all, wow!… 'Salute' !

Kind Regards, Red5

[Notwendy]

I think it comes down to intimacy- of any kind. Talking about spirituality is a kind of intimacy.

I was trying to talk to my H - not about anything intimate, but talk. I found myself feeling frustrated. I was speaking, he was answering in one word sentences and not initiating back.

He is uncomfortable with any kind of close speech and if I am talkative, he shuts the conversation down with his lack of response to block even the possibility I might get into that.

I stopped trying years ago. Yet, I think he still thinks I will do this. He can go on an on about politics, the weather, the news. But deeper conversation and the wall comes up. I just happened to be in a talkative mood. His response- he had stuff to do, isolated himself in his home office.

Like you FF, I find we get along much better when I don't try to have a deep level of verbal intimacy. When I do, it makes him uncomfortable, he shuts down and I feel frustrated from trying. That doesn't mean he doesn't want it though. He has said " you don't talk to me anymore" "you don't show interest in me" but things go more smoothly in the family when I keep a distance. Also, each time I try, it doesn't work well. It usually ends up with him getting angry and me feeling like an idiot for trying again (and getting the same results).

Not that I like it, but if we are to get along together, it's better.

[Cat Familiar]

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