Kitchen sink part 1

[snowglobe]

I’ve been away for while, as uBPDh’s behaviour has been relatively calm. It escaladed ten fold over the period of a week.
1. He is a adamant about selling our matrimonial home, claiming he wants to buy an upgrade without my parents moving with us. You might wonder why, we’ll, for starters my mother is histrionic/BPD, who herself recently went through splitting and moving out for two weeks. Second, because my parents work as buffers when it comes to boundaries and demands. He can’t do what he wants when they are around, such as yelling, cussing, breaking objects
2. Ever since the onset of his anorexia/obsession with weight, he became abusive verbally to the eldest d15. Calling her fat, obese, and demanding I put her in a Keto diet. He is also forbidding me to buy anything that isn’t Keto, regular pasta, cereal, bread are now forbidden for anyone to eat. Why, you may ask? Because he isn’t eating it. Anyone who isn’t a stick skinny with a six pack is deemed fat, disgusting and obese. Including d15. She is crumpled in stomach pain nightly, she says it stems from her being afraid. Anytime he is to speak to her is only to call her fat, incapable, stupid and useless. Why? Because she isn’t care taking him.
3. This morning he had a splitting episode, when he decided that because kids schedule doesn’t allow him enough time to work out, he will no longer drive them to extracurricular activities. Saying it as an ultimatum, you are on your own. He also demanded for me and my mom to start decluttering, and go get rid of any Christmas ornaments and Christmas tree, as he won’t allow it in his home?. my mother said that she will not allow him to through out things he didn’t pay for, and that they won’t be moving with us.one explanation I can find for this is the fact that my uBPDh never had celebrations and parties, and that holidays trigger him. He that as it might, he is trying to decorate everything, from the schedule, to food, spendings and living conditions.
4. I’m begging to have physical symptoms of distress from all this emotional abuse: random pains, fatigue, hopelessness, feeling out of control, extreme jumpiness, anxiety and night terrors. Things aren’t getting better, in fact, they are getting worse.
I took d15 to the family doctor today, I made him weigh her and take her height. As a competitive professional athlete she is below her bmi. I asked about Keto, he said it’s completly unnecessary. In fact, he recently did my uBPDh’s blood work, his cholesterol is high. I hope he recorded everything I told him. I’m also taking d15 to clinical psychology and hope she will relay everything that bothers her to someone. I need to pull the plug on this abuse

[formflier]

Hey...so...why have D15 around someone that says such horrible things? 

It's one thing if parents have a private discussion about a child's weight.  It's totally another to go up to a child and say all the  horrible things he apparently says.

I'm hoping others can come alongside here and help focus on what you should do/can do to stop this verbal berating of a child.

What does he actually say to D15?

FF

[snowglobe]

Hey...so...why have D15 around someone that says such horrible things? 

It's one thing if parents have a private discussion about a child's weight.  It's totally another to go up to a child and say all the  horrible things he apparently says.

I'm hoping others can come alongside here and help focus on what you should do/can do to stop this verbal berating of a child.

What does he actually say to D15?

FF

Let’s first focus on how he communicates with her on a daily basis. It’s a rare occasion, for him to speak to her period. Usually happens once a month, when he is in good mood. At best they exchange greetings. During the car rides he is either silent, or they listen to music. When he is speaking to her, it’s usually “what are you eating, oh, carbs?. As if you aren’t fat enough. Let me tell you what’s going to happen (at that point he turns to me, addressing me) she will gain weight, start loosing, her partner in competitive sport will leave her. Because she is a looser, she will let her school marks go, she won’t get into a college, she will be worthless nobody weighting a ton”. At this point I tell my d15 to go to her room and say we won’t speak to our children like that. He then loudly announces that he doesn’t give a bleep about her, in fact his only role in her life is to provide shelter and food. That he doesn’t love her anymore and his love is conditional. That she doesn’t make him happy and that he wants to live for himself.
When it’s during the car ride together, it becomes dangerous and abusive. With only one car and far distances we sit and listen to his berating, as she needs to get to her training camp. She is mostly shutting down her emotions, but when they appear, she cries and tells me how unfair it is. Through my constant intersection and attempt to minimize the impact she says she knows she isn’t fat or useless. Yet, “even if I was fat, I don’t want to hear that”.
Any suggestions what to do?
I’m thinking of involving several clinical psychologist along with our family doctor to give me enough ammo to protect her. I would love if children’s aid would get involved, although it could backfire as he may just walk out. Either way, the trauma that his behaviour is inflicting will be long lasting and uncertain of the effect

[formflier]

I like the idea of just walking out...both of you.  Neither of you should be aware of the nasty things that come out of his mouth. 

I'm not familiar with the children's aid thing, but I would say that avoiding car rides if he is going to be nasty is in order.  Choices are important here.

If you are nice...we will be with you.  If not..we won't.  Simple concept.

Do you have a recorder app on your phone?

Here is an important point...how many other issues were you worried "he might just walk out"?  And...he is still around..right?  (what does this tell you?)

FF

[snowglobe]

I like the idea of just walking out...both of you.  Neither of you should be aware of the nasty things that come out of his mouth. 

I'm not familiar with the children's aid thing, but I would say that avoiding car rides if he is going to be nasty is in order.  Choices are important here.

If you are nice...we will be with you.  If not..we won't.  Simple concept.

Do you have a recorder app on your phone?

Here is an important point...how many other issues were you worried "he might just walk out"?  And...he is still around..right?  (what does this tell you?)

FF

I have a recorder, didn’t think of it. I will as d15 to start recording next time it comes out of his mouth, in case we happen to be in the car. In fact, this decision not to drive the kids works out fine, at least she won’t have to listen what bleep she is. I will have a conversation later on with her, and will try to follow up as well. Ff, wht happens after the rant. Let’s just say for the argument sake he starts with it again, we both walk out, so we then carry on as if nothing happened? WhT if he continues every time he sees me/her? What if he acts upset/wounded? Or do we remain distant until he comes down?
There have been many other issues as you recall, he hasn’t left yet...

[boatingwoman]

The goal is for your daughter to drop 185 pounds by getting rid of him.

You can’t shield her or get her to deal with this abuse in ways that won’t harm her.  He is harming her.  He harms her every time he interacts with her.

It is harmful. Would you choose her or him? It may be getting close to having to make that choice.

[snowglobe]

The goal is for your daughter to drop 185 pounds by getting rid of him.

You can’t shield her or get her to deal with this abuse in ways that won’t harm her.  He is harming her.  He harms her every time he interacts with her.

It is harmful. Would you choose her or him? It may be getting close to having to make that choice.

My choice is always in favour of the children I bore, the fact is that unless he is a physical threat to them, or I can prove without any doubt that he is emotionally abusing her, guess what? He will still have access to her, unless she will choose otherwise! Additionally, I will loose control and protection I now have when the matters go out of hand. It’s easy to see black/white, but life is a grey shaded area. She still loves her dad, regardless of his behaviour towards her. We had this conversation today, she hopes he will turn a corner and get healthier. All I can do is minimize the impact and involve appropriate authorities, which I have. This is a safe place to share with the community, a kinder tone with more specific suggestions is much appreciated

[Notwendy]

Does she have a counselor to speak to?

My BPD mother also has food issues. Constant dieting and then binge eating when nobody is around. She's elderly now, but has always been slim and pretty up to her later years when her erratic eating caught up to her. Still, she can diet and lose a significant amount of weight when she chooses.

Looking back, I see that she projected her own food/size  issues on to me. She started when I was about 10, telling me I needed to lose weight and encouraging me to diet. She also got my father in on it too- telling me I should lose weight. It's horrifying to think he agreed to it. I was not overweight.  I was an athletic kid, and didn't look like the pencil thin fashion models I thought I was supposed to look like. This took a toll on my own self esteem and I started to have dieting issues. I wanted to please my parents and believed if only I was good enough, slim enough, somehow enough for them, they would love me. I also had a distorted idea of my own body. I thought I was huge and ugly. Looking at pictures of myself as a kid and teen, I was never big and I was pretty too, but I couldn't believe it about myself.

As messed up as your H is about your daughter, parents hold a significant position in a child's heart. How a father treats the women in his life- mother, wife, daughter, sets the example of how a daughter expects to be treated in relationships. I had a lot going for me- but I had no self esteem as a teen. I didn't think I was lovable or deserved to be cared for. I was actually well liked at school by my peers but I couldn't internalize it.

I share this because I can imagine how your D feels with your H speaking to her like that, and I hope she can get some outside support through counseling. She may appear to be OK. I did. School, friends, were my safe space and nobody suspected what went on in my home. I had good grades, friends, but the outside appearance didn't reflect the toll on my self esteem from the untrue criticisms I was hearing from my parents.

[snowglobe]

Does she have a counselor to speak to?

My BPD mother also has food issues. Constant dieting and then binge eating when nobody is around. She's elderly now, but has always been slim and pretty up to her later years when her erratic eating caught up to her. Still, she can diet and lose a significant amount of weight when she chooses.

Looking back, I see that she projected her own food/size  issues on to me. She started when I was about 10, telling me I needed to lose weight and encouraging me to diet. She also got my father in on it too- telling me I should lose weight. It's horrifying to think he agreed to it. I was not overweight.  I was an athletic kid, and didn't look like the pencil thin fashion models I thought I was supposed to look like. This took a toll on my own self esteem and I started to have dieting issues. I wanted to please my parents and believed if only I was good enough, slim enough, somehow enough for them, they would love me. I also had a distorted idea of my own body. I thought I was huge and ugly. Looking at pictures of myself as a kid and teen, I was never big and I was pretty too, but I couldn't believe it about myself.

As messed up as your H is about your daughter, parents hold a significant position in a child's heart. How a father treats the women in his life- mother, wife, daughter, sets the example of how a daughter expects to be treated in relationships. I had a lot going for me- but I had no self esteem as a teen. I didn't think I was lovable or deserved to be cared for. I was actually well liked at school by my peers but I couldn't internalize it.

I share this because I can imagine how your D feels with your H speaking to her like that, and I hope she can get some outside support through counseling. She may appear to be OK. I did. School, friends, were my safe space and nobody suspected what went on in my home. I had good grades, friends, but the outside appearance didn't reflect the toll on my self esteem from the untrue criticisms I was hearing from my parents.

Wendy, I’ve contacted two providers to see who she will be more comfortable with, both child clinical psychologist. We have these discussions pretty often when I explain to her just how mentally ill he is. I don’t diet, I don’t weigh myself, I speak to her about her body goals, I do the opposite of what unpdh tells her. I also understand that she will internalize it to some degree, as he is her dad after all and she loves him. As long as her body is functioning as it should, other people’s opinions of her don’t matter. What concerns me, is he is setting the bar of how a man would treat her. This thought propels me to do something. This morning my uBPDh and I are going to family doctor to get his blood work results, I will bring up d15 and hold him accountable. This will be uncomfortable, but at least I have it on the record and uBPDh will be held accountable. He will be mad, but he isn’t stupid and will be aware that I won’t stay quiet. Hopefully involving many different health professionals will be decreasing this behaviour.

[formflier]

  Let’s just say for the argument sake he starts with it again, we both walk out, so we then carry on as if nothing happened? WhT if he continues every time he sees me/her? What if he acts upset/wounded? Or do we remain distant until he comes down?
There have been many other issues as you recall, he hasn’t left yet...

Great question.

This is where you worry about you and daughter.  Not him.

So..the appropriate tool is a boundary.  Your (and her) ears go somewhere else. 

Please do not stick around and try to "explain" to him that you are doing the right thing.

"We won't listen to insults..."  (short and to the point)



FF

[formflier]

Additionally, I will loose control and protection I now have when the matters go out of hand. It’s easy to see black/white, but life is a grey shaded area.

Hey...it's been a while since we have talked about "illusion of control" over your husbands actions.

I suspect this is another place where you incorrectly believe you have control over him.  Please focus more on having control over yourself...and by extension have some control over your daughter.

When you get time..I think it would be good to make a list here of what you think is black and white...and what you think is "grey".  I suspect that we can help you consider different points of view on this.

FF

[Notwendy]

So I'll play devil's advocate here- why do you have to go with your H to the doctor? He's an adult. He can eat or not eat what he wants. The consequences would be his health. Why not let him deal with this? It's between him and his doctor. With you in the mix, bringing it up, it becomes a Karpman triangle.

The only true victims here are the ones who depend on adults to protect them. Every one else has choices ( albeit difficult ones) but the children don't. They are dependent on their parents.

The only victim here is your D. What your H does to his body is his business. It's his choice to do this.

Yet the focus is on your H, his health, his bloodwork, his diet. None of these things are things you can control. It's his hands bringing food to his mouth.

It's good that you are doing what you can for your D in the situation you are in and also that you are role modeling healthy body image habits for her. But she's still internalizing both parent's behaviors and seeing what/who you focus on.

What if you instead role modeled the boundary that your H is a grown man and his health is between him and his health care provider?

[snowglobe]

Ff,
I plan to hold myself accountable and implement a very firm boundary regarding the weight and food discussions with uBPDh. I will secure therapy for d15 to help and process those things. Additionally, you have brought to my awareness my own pattern of thinking. I believe, that as long as I’m there with uBPDh and the kids, I can protect them from his behaviour, wrath. In reality...

[formflier]

  I believe, that as long as I’m there with uBPDh and the kids, I can protect them from his behaviour, wrath. In reality...

Done properly..you can.

I do this in my house

When my wife goes off the rails...I shoo kids off to their rooms until things calm.  I used to try to "reason" with my wife.  It would make thing worse.

Once she is deprived on an audience...the "flame" burns out pretty quick.

So...it's good you are around because a child versus 1 disordered parent isn't very good odds.  A child with a healthy parent...making healthy choices for/with them has much better odds of becoming a healthy..emotionally stable adult.

FF

[snowglobe]

So I'll play devil's advocate here- why do you have to go with your H to the doctor? He's an adult. He can eat or not eat what he wants. The consequences would be his health. Why not let him deal with this? It's between him and his doctor. With you in the mix, bringing it up, it becomes a Karpman triangle.

The only true victims here are the ones who depend on adults to protect them. Every one else has choices ( albeit difficult ones) but the children don't. They are dependent on their parents.

The only victim here is your D. What your H does to his body is his business. It's his choice to do this.

Yet the focus is on your H, his health, his bloodwork, his diet. None of these things are things you can control. It's his hands bringing food to his mouth.

It's good that you are doing what you can for your D in the situation you are in and also that you are role modeling healthy body image habits for her. But she's still internalizing both parent's behaviors and seeing what/who you focus on.

What if you instead role modeled the boundary that your H is a grown man and his health is between him and his health care provider?

Wendy,
UBPDh had requested for me to go the doctor’s office with him. He is afraid of doctors and doesn’t trust them. Today was a strange day. When we arrived, the doctor proceeded to tell him that due to his Keto diet and small consumption of food (he eats once a day and measure’s every single calorie) he has a high count of uriage acid (possible gout), his cholesterol is higher then the norm, his white blood cells count is through the roof. UBPDh kept on interrupting the doctor, when he was saying that he is at risk for heart attach and kept on inserting his comments about you tube videos he watched in benefits of the Keto. The doctor kept on making the eye contact, finally, he abruptly stopped uBPDh and told him that he needs to repeat his blood work. We have been his patients for over 10 years, only last year did I finally let him know what behaviours uBPDh exibits. The car is out of the bag and uBPDh’s erratic behaviour can’t be concealed. I was contemplating on going back to the doctor to see what I can do, but I’m afraid that the only option would be involving authorities, it won’t go well with uBPDh.

[snowglobe]

Do these tests now constitute that he is at high risk to his health?

[formflier]

it won’t go well with uBPDh.

Has anything you have done that is "healthy"..."gone well" for uBPDh?

Has anything you have done which has eventually resulted in more calm "gone well"?

All that being said...I don't want to distract from Notwendy's point or question about letting adults be adults...

What role did you play at the doctors office today?  Did you ask doctor what diet he recommends?  Did you ask the doctor what your hubby can do to improve his mental health?

If your purpose was to "know" the dysfunction that went on...well...what are you going to do with that?

FF

[formflier]

Do these tests now constitute that he is at high risk to his health?

I thought he had been at "high risk" for as long as I've heard about him? 

Didn't the doctor make this point? 

FF

[Notwendy]

I think you can play a protective role to some extent. In the case of divorce, they would still have contact with their dad and probably without you around.

I felt the same way when mine were little. Yet, my situation is thankfully milder. My H would not say these thing to the kids. What he had was a short fuse and resented any form of helping with the kids. He was great on family outings as long as I was there to feed, diaper, take care of their needs. Our relationship issues were mainly between us and at times, I felt I was taking the brunt of it for the kids. The kids needed to be kept secure.

But they saw it. They also saw me being a doormat and that concerned me. Kids learn from both their parents. I believe my father's presence was a protective factor but a confusing one as he'd both act loving to me and then turn on me in an instant to placate my mother. Ironically, I married into a similar pattern- a man with Jeckyll Hyde behavior towards me. My father was a role model for co-dependency.

I don't think there's a right or wrong to the decision to stay or leave but one has to assess the whole picture and also the extent of potential danger to anyone. My situation was not physically dangerous but not emotionally good for me. I got to the point where I felt I had to address my own co-dependent behaviors. However, the kids were older at this point and didn't need as much hands on parenting. When they were little, it was basically survivor mode to meet their needs which I did because I felt they deserved better than to leave them with a resentful parent for long.

I think maybe the best one can do is to minimize the impact as much as possible and get the kids into counseling but I don't think it is possible to completely shield them from the chaos. I also think they will figure things out. 15 is young and pretty savvy.

[babyducks]

In my opinion those test results do not rise to the level of high risk.     

It's been my experience that doctors assist people who want help.  And don't rescue people who won't accept help.

[boatingwoman]

Did you meet your goal of bringing up dd15 and how she is normal and healthy? Did you meet the goal of having the doctor explain this to DH?

ETA: I thought I read this was a plan, but now I don’t see it, so ignore this if it doesn’t apply.

[snowglobe]

What if you instead role modeled the boundary that your H is a grown man and his health is between him and his health care provider?

Wendy,
It took a few days for me to process and dig deeper into this. With me going to every single doctors appointment with him for the past 18 years, taking responsibility for his physical health, I felt like I was abandoning him. Then, I realized that he is an adult male, who makes otherwise decisions alone, without my help or involvement. It’s certainly feels nice to be cared deeply by someone, I know he enjoys my attention and displays of commitment, he explicitly stated this. Yet, this level of care was motivated internally, to make sure I earn points with him, and maybe then he would see that I’m irreplaceable (low self esteem). By allowing him to to be an adult, not only do I remove any/all responsibility for his health, I also show him that if you want me to be nice,  you need to be nice.

[snowglobe]

Has anything you have done that is "healthy"..."gone well" for uBPDh?

Has anything you have done which has eventually resulted in more calm "gone well"?

All that being said...I don't want to distract from Notwendy's point or question about letting adults be adults...

What role did you play at the doctors office today?  Did you ask doctor what diet he recommends?  Did you ask the doctor what your hubby can do to improve his mental health?

If your purpose was to "know" the dysfunction that went on...well...what are you going to do with that?

FF

Whenever I try to meet my needs met without his aproval it ends in a conflict. Whenever I disengage in a non threatening manner (not leaving physically), going to another room, staying with kids, being busy, after three days he wants to talk about breaking up that we are different people and he sees no future for us. With impending sale of the house and transition, which I’m quite concerned with, because he is unpredictable, I’m feeling demotivated. He is acting rude, abrupt, yet expecting me to fulfill his wants such as moving to another house and selling this one. Ff, how do I behaviourally retrain him to consider my needs? I have been following you for a while, I like transactional model of the relationships you have established. You want me to clean the basement? Be nice. You want me to sign the papers, allow me input regarding the selling agent. You want me to sign mortgage and purchase agreement, allow me to have an input for what I want in the new house.
What role did I play at the doctors office? Several:
1. Indeed to show him what I have been telling our doctor for the past 1.5 years. That went really well, he now sees it and assured me that he will be watching closely. In case I need to sign a protective order, seek temporary conservation of assets or children, I know he will testify, he saw it.
2. I got the confirmation through his blood work that what he was trying to brainwash down my throat is complete bogus. This “pseudo Keto” is nothing but a glamorized anorehia nervosa.
3. Protective shield for the children, next step would be requesting a sign document with doctors recommendation regarding the kids diet (no Keto is necessary for their normal dev-Ment) should BPDh still continue pushing for it.
4. Asking what the results mean, uBPDh didn’t give me or himself a chance to ask further questions, so I went back. The answer is pretty simple: stop eating so much meat product, take cholesterol medication and start healthy eating hygiene.
Ff, this behavioural pattern is non other then addiction, it’s in the same family. It’s just more socially accepted form. No, he isn’t snorting coke, but he is depriving himself of nutrients and runs around in mania phase daily. Constantly stating that “he has so much energy, he wants to shout from a rooftop”. The family doctor checked for any substances in his blood, he is clean. This is simply dopamine in his brain. 

[snowglobe]

I thought he had been at "high risk" for as long as I've heard about him? 

Didn't the doctor make this point? 

FF

UBPDh tried to argue and refute every point, at the end stating that the doctor has old school training and that he knows better through “YouTube videos and the health and wellness websites he had been reading”. He says that the doctor is not an authority for him and he will continue doing what he thinks is right. I refuse to engage if it’s not related to kiddos. In fact, after a sleepless night I realized that I don’t have to be involved and the boundaries is what can and will protect me. I plan to start walking away every time conversation goes into weight, food, calories area. The only way I can minimize this on me is through not engaging. I’m afraid he will reject me if I do that, but then what has he been doing all along?

[snowglobe]

I think you can play a protective role to some extent. In the case of divorce, they would still have contact with their dad and probably without you around.

I felt the same way when mine were little. Yet, my situation is thankfully milder. My H would not say these thing to the kids. What he had was a short fuse and resented any form of helping with the kids. He was great on family outings as long as I was there to feed, diaper, take care of their needs. Our relationship issues were mainly between us and at times, I felt I was taking the brunt of it for the kids. The kids needed to be kept secure.

But they saw it. They also saw me being a doormat and that concerned me. Kids learn from both their parents. I believe my father's presence was a protective factor but a confusing one as he'd both act loving to me and then turn on me in an instant to placate my mother. Ironically, I married into a similar pattern- a man with Jeckyll Hyde behavior towards me. My father was a role model for co-dependency.

I don't think there's a right or wrong to the decision to stay or leave but one has to assess the whole picture and also the extent of potential danger to anyone. My situation was not physically dangerous but not emotionally good for me. I got to the point where I felt I had to address my own co-dependent behaviors. However, the kids were older at this point and didn't need as much hands on parenting. When they were little, it was basically survivor mode to meet their needs which I did because I felt they deserved better than to leave them with a resentful parent for long.

I think maybe the best one can do is to minimize the impact as much as possible and get the kids into counseling but I don't think it is possible to completely shield them from the chaos. I also think they will figure things out. 15 is young and pretty savvy.

Wendy,
You pretty much summed up my reasons for staying. As long as we have been together, there have been different challenges presented and I was trying my best to overcome them in the name of keeping kids mental health intact. With his absolute hatred towards d15 (she is very much alike with him) I’m reasonably concerned that this can become an out of hand situation. Our son who is on a spectrum takes everything literally, for him, any word or statement made is written in stone and may affect his long term. I understand that it may appear that I’m taking on a martyr role, but the way I see it is I’m doing this for another 8 years and then I will have a choice.

[snowglobe]

In my opinion those test results do not rise to the level of high risk.     

It's been my experience that doctors assist people who want help.  And don't rescue people who won't accept help.

Thank you ducks, he certainly doesn’t want to be helped.

[snowglobe]

Did you meet your goal of bringing up dd15 and how she is normal and healthy? Did you meet the goal of having the doctor explain this to DH?

ETA: I thought I read this was a plan, but now I don’t see it, so ignore this if it doesn’t apply.

I have briefly discussed d15 well being at uBPDh’s appointment requested more tests for the stomach pains. Again, for uBPDh the doctor is not an authority and upon leaving the office he claimed that the doctor didn’t properly calculated her bmi?. According To him, if she doesn’t look like Victoria secret model she is obese.

[formflier]

What does "impending" sale of the house mean?

Isn't your signature and consent needed?  And..you've said no..right?

A comment about "transactional relationships".  It's not a goal..it's more of a tool.

Simply a way to calm things that seems to work for me.  Once stability is around, perhaps things can happen that move our relationship to a better place. 

Perhaps another way to look at it is I "leave the door open" to healthy behavior.

She is "bad"...I go do something else.

She is "good"...we do things together.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

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