Haven't been in this position in a while

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Wow...she wants a divorce..and she means it...

Sigh.

So around midnight she wanted to discuss shelving options, I let her know I saw pathways to the options she wants...and we should discuss those steps when both at our best, because I need sleep and can't think straight.

She said she no longer wanted to live with me...wants a divorce...and she means it this time.  Is off sleeping somewhere else.

I figured I would be able to go to sleep...but apparently not, even though I'm dog tired.

Really frustrating.

FF

[formflier]

Wow...she wants a divorce..and she means it...

Sigh.

So around midnight she wanted to discuss shelving options, I let her know I saw pathways to the options she wants...and we should discuss those steps when both at our best, because I need sleep and can't think straight.

She said she no longer wanted to live with me...wants a divorce...and she means it this time.  Is off sleeping somewhere else.

I figured I would be able to go to sleep...but apparently not, even though I'm dog tired.

Really frustrating.

FF

[snappybrowneyes]

  I'm so sorry FF, I know hard that is. No advice at the moment, I just wanted you to know that someone cares.

[Cat Familiar]

Whoa, what happened?

From shelving options to divorce?

Do you think she will have forgotten about it by morning?

So sorry. See if you can get some sleep. Try the 4-7-8 breathing pattern.

With tongue on roof of mouth for entire exercise, inhale through nose for 4 counts, hold for 7, exhale through open mouth for 8. Repeat until you get sleepy.   

[formflier]

Gotcha..will try it.  

Yeah...she apparently is not good with temporary shelving in the pantry that can have the clutter all back under control in the morning.

She want to construct and install cabinet grade shelving just like she saw online "over the weekend"..it's so easy.

No seams..mitered joints.  

No plan..she'll just look at the pictures.

Of course something else, the temp solution, was agreed to yesterday..to fix another concern of hers.

Sigh...

FF

[loyalwife]

Wow. It's like being blindsided by a ship. So sorry she made such a ludicrous remark so late at night. It never makes sense, even if it is in the middle of the day. Just plain crazy talk. She may forget about it in the morning, or if you are like me, you prepare for her departure. My husband tells me he wants a divorce, move away, 'he's done', on almost a schedule. Usually when I expect it the least. So, her making these threats at midnight about shelves, is not unordinary, for a pwBPD.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head at the nonsense. The sad part is that it does effect us, and if you can't sleep then your health is being jeopardized. She's acting like a child that isn't getting her way. Have you talked to her about the divorce card? I recently had to let my husband know (when things quieted down), that the next time he takes off his ring, it's the end. In the past, he threw it into the grass (I retrieved it), said he threw it away (didn't) and every time he says he is done, he takes it off. It becomes a game they play. I put the boundary up, and you know what? I mean it.

So sorry that this happened.

[Notwendy]

I'm sorry FF.

It's hurtful to hear this. Sometimes though, in the heat of the moment, I think pwBPD say what they are thinking in that moment and these are hurtful things. It could be the frustration in the moment, or something she's been thinking about.

The two of you have both build up resentments. Your wife has been showing frustrations in other ways- things she has said. Wanting to join a church and you aren't on board, the money issues. Issues with kids.

I don't know what to really advise but I think one thing that needs to be cleared up is if she just said it in a moment of anger or if she's been thinking about is and making plans. If she says this is something she's been thinking about for a while, is it possible for the two of you to speak in a safe place- ie with a counselor you both can trust. Maybe not your therapist- that person is associated with you. She could feel ganged up on. It could be an emotionally charged discussion. I would start by listening to what she has to say to get an idea of what she's thinking.

An idea that has been discussed is that- if she wants it, you don't have to help her get it. She can take the steps on her own. But if she seriously does that, then you take steps to protect your interests.

Or, she just said it in the moment and it has no real meaning to her for the long run.

[Enabler]

Massively sorry to hear this monster has entered your marriage. The Divorce card is horrible. If there was ever a man who could stay super chilled and feel his way through this, it was you.

Who knows if this is directly linked to the shelving, or part of a general frustration. You are best placed to gauge and best placed to work out whether or not D is being used to get her own way in the pantry or not. If it is, could you let her come up with and control the solution. "lets decide on a budget together and you can roll with making it how you want it."

Enabler

[Cole]

Sorry you are dealing with this, FF. Looks like something many of us have been through.

What is you response to her threats of divorce? Is this something that happens often? Does it end in her getting her way? I used to deal with this threat often. By often I mean weekly. The last time she did, I filed for divorce. Funny how fast she changed her mind when the papers came. I have not heard that threat since.

Moral #1: A threat becomes immaterial when the target is OK with it.


I get the shelving thing. The most dreaded words in the English language are, "I saw this thing on Pinterest..." I have lived through the home-made Febreeze that ruined a couch, the vacuum bag solution for closet storage, and the no cut, no fastener book shelf (sound familiar?) With the book shelf, I gave her the keys to my truck and the Lowe's card and sent her on her way. She picked up the material, brought it home, messed with it for 4-5 hours, then returned the undamaged materials the next day. I don't think she had been on Pinterest since.

Moral #2: If you tell them an idea is dumb, they will hear that you are calling them dumb. Let them figure it out on their own. Then they can blame the person who posted it and you are out of the mix.

It seems counter-intuitive to treat an adult as a child. But pwBPD tend to act like children at times. So, we need to react as such without showing it and without being disrespectful or patronizing. Let them know their threats will not get them anything. Let them make mistakes and learn from them. It is a narrow path with steep cliffs on either side. But properly navigated, it gets you (and the pwBPD) where you need to go.


 

[formflier]

I suspect it was said in a moment of frustration when she wouldn't get her way.

I think two things would have "gotten her her way"

1.  "yes honey...I support you doing what is shown in the article you sent this weekend." (even though I don't think it's "accomplishable" this weekend...with what I know of tools we have on hand..etc etc"

2.  "yes honey...i'll stay up and talk about this as long as you like"

Of course there is background...and I totally support her getting the finished product she wants, exactly or pretty much like what is in the pictures.  

https://www.thecraftpatchblog.com/how-to-build-pantry-shelves/

That's what she wants...

This is what I have on hand...and could have been done (temporarily) last night.

www.rubbermaid.com/en-US/twin-track-hardware


This is what we had before and is what came with the house when we bought it.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/ClosetMaid-Close-Mesh-72-in-W-x-20-in-D-Ventilated-Pantry-Shelf-1396/100114022.

So...for a variety of reasons we wanted more hot water and needed a location to put a tankless hot water heater.

https://www.build.com/rinnai-rur199in/s1455523?uid=3417944&source=gg-gba-pla_3417944!c1713743721!a68780787524!dc!ng&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzr7xq7rK4QIVhK7ICh3UegLnEAYYASABEgKzW_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

We have been in agreement about putting it in the pantry, so it can be "inside" an outside wall for a long time.  That project finally came together in the last few days..again..she was totally onboard.

There was a hiccup at just over halfway in the install process and some lines had to be rerouted.  I didn't like the locations, they really didn't either, but it was end of the day..we'd solve it later.

My wife comes home and stomped around the house for an hour or so...then calmed down, then we had a conversation that I couldn't have asked to go any better...seriously...I couldn't imagine a better conversation.

We figured out we would move the heater from center wall into the corner to free up as much undisturbed wall space as possible and have all wall/floor penetrations in same place.  Eventually would could box the thing in behind louvers or something.

It's likely I'll have to pay a couple more hours of labor time, in fact my wife offered to pay for it...but bottom line we both were in agreement that the room worked better with the tank in the corner.

Yesterday the tank got moved and new water heater is working...(wireless controller so we can control hot water from app on our phones...not so much)  Rinnai is shipping a new controller today...I dumped several hours into troublshooting yesterday...it appears we have bad controller.

So..my wife gets home and we are discussing manual control settings of the hot water and what I should leave it at so kids can't get burned...I showed her several settings and we agreed on what was "too hot"...and left the setting there.

Somewhere...things went off the rails after that.  

Let me post this...and we'll try to figure out  (as much as possible)...what the heck happened.

FF

[formflier]

  You are best placed to gauge and best placed to work out whether or not D is being used to get her own way in the pantry or not. 

Yes...she didn't say this explicitly...but she wants 100% control and me to have zero say whatsoever.

There are also claims here and there that "she never agreed to this".."we never talked" (ummm...zero basis in fact for that)  And..now you guys know why old FF wanted to record things, signed things, get explicit emails saying "I agree (or disagree) with ...)

Sigh

FF

[formflier]

What is you response to her threats of divorce? Is this something that happens often? Does it end in her getting her way? I used to deal with this threat often. By often I mean weekly. The last time she did, I filed for divorce. Funny how fast she changed her mind when the papers came. I have not heard that threat since.
 

I didn't react to it...I'll post the emails that were flying around some...

She "hinted" at divorce once over the summer...I didn't bite and it never came up.  It used to be a weekly thing..certainly monthly until I realized it was BS...tools and all that.

FF

[formflier]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle

Just so you guys get by "broad thinking".

She can have the closet she wants...little chance she can have it quickly.

What I attempted, likely badly, to communicate is that I support an end goal looking something like this.

https://www.thecraftpatchblog.com/how-to-build-pantry-shelves/.

We don't have the same space, I'll have to look at this some today to see what I can design/consider.

There is a new nuance that I suspect she doesn't like of "having to" consider the water heater, being able to service it..etc etc.

FF

[formflier]

So our ceilings re vaulted I believe. I would measure height from the floor for the bottom shelf and then measure the rest of the heights for the rest of the shelves from bottom up. So if after the top shelf is on there is extra height above it that's great.

above was in one email chain

if my memory is right she showed me the pictures of what she wanted and I said it was doable, would take time and need to be thought through...(I didn't say no..or yes...)  I asked her what she liked about it (it looks nice) and I asked her for the biggest downside (and she said it wasn't movable).  She assured me she wouldn't change her mind...(after at least three mind changes in the prior few hours)

Please don't continue to put up the shelves in the pantry. Please take it down. I can put up shelves this weekend. I am begging you to take it down and let me do it the way it is in the link I sent you. I will buy the materials myself.

another email...with no response in between

Or please just put the wire shelving back up..

my reply

Let's take it a step at a time...and think it through... nothing is permanent.

However...if we want to install permanent shelving...let's take our time to think it through...

Also...let's only talk about permanent solutions when we are at our best

her reply

The pantry looks horrific. I am willing to  do it myself.  Why would you desire control more than allow your wife to have her pantry how she wants it? Do you not have the garage how you want it? Please ask (D22 name) what she thinks of what you are putting in the pantry. Please send (real estate friend of mine) a picture and ask what that will do to the value of this home. In the very least please put the wire shelving we already have back up.

my reply

Please...let's discuss the process of getting from here ..to a pantry that looks like what you want...when we are both at our best.  I need sleep...I would assume you do as well.

I am NOT doing anything permanent.

I see this step as a prototype.

I see pathways to get what you want ..they need to be thought through...

I'm pretty sure she came in the room where I was trying to go to sleep and tried to have a conversation at this point...and the divorce threat.

Note...all of this is just about midnight or so (couple hours after I turn into a pumpkin).  I knew better than to try and validate and all that.  My goal was succint...(hand out as little ammo as possible) (if you call that a tool)


her reply..  

Using screws to screw 1x2:s into the wall is no more permanent than the horrible track you are putting up.

another reply

Just like the track and plywood shelves in the laundry room aren't permanent? Tou and I both know once those nasty track and shelves go up they won't be coming down for years.

FF

[Cole]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle

Just so you guys get by "broad thinking".

She can have the closet she wants...little chance she can have it quickly.

What I attempted, likely badly, to communicate is that I support an end goal looking something like this.

https://www.thecraftpatchblog.com/how-to-build-pantry-shelves/.

We don't have the same space, I'll have to look at this some today to see what I can design/consider.

There is a new nuance that I suspect she doesn't like of "having to" consider the water heater, being able to service it..etc etc.

FF

So, let her design it, buy the materials, and build it. Support her and offer to help, but don't offer to do it for her. That way, she is in charge. And when it does not turn out the way she thought it would ("but it worked on line for a complete stranger!") she cannot blame it on you.

Yes, this is a very illogical and inefficient approach to a project; completely opposite of your military training. However, once she learns that you are there to support her but not to clean up her messes, it will benefit both of you.

[PeteWitsend]

How often has she threatened divorce?

I honestly don't think pwBPD realize how serious it is, and how often the NON may have fantasized about not being married to them.

And in my experience, if they feel like you won't actually follow through with it, they'll recklessly threaten it without realizing the finality of it, like a kid playing with a hand grenade.

In my own case, we nearly got divorced once (Fall 2017), and both saw lawyers, but she begged me not to do it, and so we tabled it & agreed to work things out.  She promised to work on herself, but a week later was blaming me for the whole thing, without any accountability for the things she said and did to precipitate it. 

After we reconciled, uBPDXW started using the divorce threat more casually after that.  I guess she figured since I had stayed, I wouldn't ever actually leave her, and she could add threats of divorce to her "toolkit" of nasty things to say and threaten me with. 

(of course when I actually moved out and filed for divorce after a big fight, and her telling me divorce was the only option & urging me to move out, she couldn't believe it was happening, and then "re-wrote history" to the story that we had a happy marriage until one day I just went crazy and moved out, and she can't understand why...)

[formflier]

So, let her design it, buy the materials, and build it. Support her and offer to help, but don't offer to do it for her. That way, she is in charge. And when it does not turn out the way she thought it would ("but it worked on line for a complete stranger!") she cannot blame it on you.

Yes, this is a very illogical and inefficient approach to a project; completely opposite of your military training. however, once she learns that you are there to support her but not to clean up her messes, it will benefit both of you.

If the water heater wasn't in there..I'd do this.

There is a "function" that affects everyone in the house...and is around a $4k investment that needs to be considered/designed for.

Plus...there is a relationship thing here that (knowing me)...I'm not going to compromise on.

She asked me to relent when she saw something going on that she didn't like...and I relented and we have a better heater install as a result.

I've asked her to relent on a "permanent" solution (lets talk about it first)..and she says no..she wants a divorce.

The ol..."I'll do stuff to you that you don't like...but nothing can be done to me that I don't like"

FF

[formflier]

A few notes.

No...I don't have the garage the way I want it.  Guess who took control..changed things while I was gone...and then has been blaming me for low production, things not working well in there after she put landmines everywhere in a "shop"...and continues to do so.

Note:  With space we have...I'm not going to "win" that battle..it is what it is and I don't engage or "fight" about it.  I get done what I can..with what I have.

Yes..there is history of shelving in the adjoining room (laundry room).  She wanted shelving fast...and got it.  She wants nice shelving in there.  I want nice shelving in there.

It takes time, focus and money. 

It's come up a couple times and she has explicitly said she DOES NOT want to move forward on laundry room upgrades..so I dropped it.  I have plenty else to do.

Again...time, money, quality...

FF

[Enabler]

Okay. She has asked you to step out. Your wealth of experience is NOT wanted. She has claimed this as her thing. She wants to get down and dirty with power tools, let her.

She will soon realise that a project like this requires planning and preparation. Going to the store to buy sheets of MDF is the easy bit, cutting it to size and straight is the next biggy, realising that you measured incorrectly is the next hurdle, then finding out that you have to assemble the shelves in the correct order so you can slide bits around the supports is another... then painting it.

How would you treat one of your kids if they said "I'm going to fix the car, leave me alone"? Have some faith in her, do not offer your advice and let her think it through. The project appears simple enough and totally doable. The downside I reckon is $200 of sheet material, assuming she scraps the project completely... realistically it might be $50 of additional sheet material when you have to recover the project. 100% support her, if she pulls it off, AWESOME.

Enabler

[formflier]

Enabler..I get the thought.

The better analogy is "Dad..I can land the plane...you go in the back and I'll handle this."

If no water heater or impact on future projects (that we've both agreed on..furnace, filtration, humidity upgrade)

You mentioned figures...we're playing around with $4kish water heater and about the same $4-6 furnace.

True..everything can be fixed/undone..done right...but as a finance guy it's important to accurately understand the financial risk that is being take.

My wife can cover the MDF...she can't cover the rest.


FF

[Enabler]

I'm a finance guy as well, and sometimes I let 'the finance' squash other peoples desire to be 'creative'. For example, my delayed gratification is so honed I don't think I'm even capable of being spontaneous and impulsive... and actually, there is much joy to be had in being spontaneous and impulsive. Letting go of this IS GOING TO HURT YOU and will cause you a great amount of anxiety, BUT, your starting gate is that she is going to stuff things up, neglect to think about said plans and COST the family (you) money... What if she doesn't?

If it does cost you money or if it does disrupt the plans... change the plans.

She wants control, let her have control. Not to be sexist but she may well deem 'the Pantry' as her domain. Stand back, go out in fact, let her do it and to hell with the consequences. I don't see this as enabling her, she has to do the leg-work, she has to take the risk of it going badly... to take the prize of it going well. 

I taught my W how to use a jigsaw last summer so she could make props for church. She cut into a very expensive garden table... but I'm sure she learnt something from it. Mehhh the garden table.

Enabler

[formflier]

We can't finance/insure the downside in the "transaction".  

I'm fine with letting her do "most" of it...but I simply can't/wont be a good financial steward and walk away.

There is history here..."you should have told me".  

Remember the "car incident"..."I didn't properly inform her".

I realize my course is not "in line" with the bpdfamily or "best way" to let them figure it out themselves...

The part of this is the downside...and her known propensity to discount those downsides...then rewrite history.  If it "was just" a pantry..I completely agree with you guys and can't imagine I wouldn't take the path you guys recommend.  I'd probably recommend it myself.

FF

[formflier]

Update:

from her soon after she got to school.

Please don't continue putting up those shelves in the pantry. Please either let me do it or PLEASE put the wire shelving back up.

My reply (and I realize I'm not anywhere close to my best...it's what I could come up with quickly)

I certainly won't continue with anything until we can come together on a way forward.  I have some thoughts that I will try to put together in some coherent fashion after I get woken up.  Bottom line..I hope we can go out (hopefully while D13 at dance) and find a way forward together.

Love,

FF

She now seems to at least see this as a dichotomus issue, vice "only one way".

FF

[Enabler]

I have a tendency to be a bit black and white in my thinking regarding 'the downside'. Is it likely that she would damage and render valueless the heating system? I guess what I am asking is, is the downside $5k or is the downside a repair?

I fear you are pushing for partnership behaviour with a person who has wavering abilities to demonstrate partnership behaviour. I don't think she has faith that you will deliver what SHE wants but instead deliver a compromise, which she doesn't want.

Can you see a way of acting as a coach here rather than rescuer or perpetrator? Could you work with her and specifically say "I want to act as a coach here to help YOU achieve what YOU want". You can be her tutor and lacky. She controls the direction and she controls what input she wants from you... you help to ENPOWER her.

Our £1500 garden table is still just as good at being a garden table... it just has a little war wound 

Enabler 

[formflier]

$5-10k downside and potentially making it so some projects can't happen as she/we want them to.

We have limited options to vent the upcoming furnace project without great expense (removing a deck would solve venting issues).

We don't have 5-10k at the moment for the downside...that would put us in a real bind.

Just got off the phone with P...she has given me some pointers for way forward.  Back later today..

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Is there a way that you can say, "We need X amount of clearance to be able to service the water heater, should we need to disassemble it and remove it from the wall?"

I've built decorative shelves (after seeing photos of expensive shelving units that were out of my budget) and lined a closet with cedar. It amuses me to think of letting her do it herself. I think it could be a really good learning opportunity and certainly can teach follow-through skills. 

[formflier]

Is there a way that you can say, "We need X amount of clearance to be able to service the water heater, should we need to disassemble it and remove it from the wall?"

 

Perhaps...but if I try to start drawing lines..."here and no further", that seems like it would be a challenge to her.

As opposed to finding something we can "do together"...where I might be able to nudge and suggest, vice saying "you can't" or "this won't work".

FF

[Fian]

I realize my course is not "in line" with the bpdfamily or "best way" to let them figure it out themselves...

It seems like most of the proposed solutions is to let her have her way after throwing a divorce threat.  Maybe that is the right approach for something that isn't that important, but maybe it is bad to let her having her way after making a threat?  It seems like it may encourage more divorce threats if she realizes she can get what she wants if she makes the threat.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's the rub. My ex-husband and I would do projects together, but he was always in control. I always had to defer to his expertise, when in reality, he didn't know much more than me. It made for a very frustrating experience because we never were "co-equals".

It wasn't until I divorced and started working on my own house as it was being built. Then I had the advise of professional contractors who told me what the parameters were and what was and wasn't possible. I did a lot of different jobs, using my labor to keep costs down. I discovered that lots of things I was quite good at were parts of the project that I really didn't want to do (insulation, painting) and other things were quite fun (texturing sheet rock).

There was no drama and it was fun to learn tips from professionals. I now do a lot of maintenance and repair (my husband is clueless on all this stuff) and I can talk "contractor language" fluently. Participating in building projects has been a wonderful experience. I'm now aware of how much time and effort go into projects and I can pick and choose what I want to do and what I want to hire out.

Can you have a contractor specify exactly what the clearances need to be for your water heater (love those on-demand heaters BTW) and then you have no input where your wife can blame you for anything.

I think it would be a fabulous opportunity for her to realize how much work it takes to do what she envisions. And then the results are entirely hers, for good or bad. If you let her do this on her own, I can see how in the future, she would either let you alone with projects you want to do, or be a much better partner if she was participating with you.

[formflier]

  It seems like it may encourage more divorce threats if she realizes she can get what she wants if she makes the threat.

I agree with that..and actually it would appear I spoke hastily when saying "my way" wasn't  the "bpdfamily way".

There are several points of view here...but having threats be successful isn't a good one.

Case in point:  She stomped around the house for an hour about the original location of the heater.  She calmed..I did some calming emails and said some neutral things.

Then...she asked me to come into the pantry..she was completely calm...we had a great conversation, and even then..I didn't give her an answer...I said let me put together an email to the installers...and let's talk in a couple of hours after I've thought about it more...I won't send the email until we've talked again.

She was happy with that.

Another great convo that evening..email sent...water heater moved...things much better.

Kind of like "ending training with a horse on a high note".

Me walking away and handing her control after a divorce threat sets a bad precedent.  I "feel" like hunkering down until she is reasonable...yet I know that's not a good plan (so I won't do what I "feel" like doing).

My hope and Ps advice was to keep lines of communication open, help her feel listened to...and grab the first way forward that seems "workable"

Two problems

1.  What do we do "right now" about the pantry stuff that has taken over eat in kitchen.
2.  Long term thought through plan to get you a great looking pantry, like what is in the pictures.

FF

[formflier]

Here's the rub. My ex-husband and I would do projects together, but he was always in control. I always had to defer to his expertise, when in reality, he didn't know much more than me. It made for a very frustrating experience because we never were "co-equals".
 

Here is the frustrating part for me.  My wife "technically" knows better, so there is hope that with calmed emotions...this gets to a better place.

Quickly.  I've flipped about 50 houses in my day and still have 8-9 (I'd have to count) still hanging around my neck (shows how I "feel" about them right now...give it a month..it will be better)

The house I made the most money on as a percentage and I'm still making a killing because we hold the mortgage was bought and fixed up based on her recommendation and plan...

I saw pics but she went and did it all with me out of the country (did it means the evaluation and inspections) so I kinda bought it "sight unseen" but she had been in the house several times.  She didn't miss anything...and really knows what she is doing, although hands on leaves something to be desired.

ie...she gets it that a certain area should take a couple days work and can ballpark the expense, and she "can" do the work..but she gets frustrated easily and doesn't enjoy it.  I enjoy the work.

That was at early stages of BPD showing up.

Anyway...her line about "all you have to do is screw on some 1x 2s (or whatever it was"...she knows better...she was likely "inviting" me to argue with her about "all you have to do" to minimize the work and portray it as "i just didn't want to"

I didn't bite.

Generally...she handles education (and I defer to her expertise) and she defers to me on building matters, although I defer to her on color, texture and all that...I only step in when I'm like..."yeah...that's not going to be up to code".."strong enough.." whatever..


FF