A very petty vent about something really insignificant

[Cat Familiar]

Next Sunday is my birthday. Typically what my husband and I do on birthdays is to let the birthday "owner" choose how to celebrate, whether we go somewhere or do something nearby.

Now my husband has made plans with his former boss, who will be coming to visit us for a couple of days while his wife is visiting family.

The original plan was that he would arrive on Friday and leave Sunday morning, which would still give me an opportunity to choose how I wanted to celebrate my birthday.

Today I find out that he will be staying until Monday morning. So not only do I have to entertain someone I've only briefly met once, the whole day will revolve around having a guest. 

If my husband could muster the strength to be direct, he could have mentioned that Sunday is my birthday and "Hey, let's stick to the original plan."

Now he's bummed out because my birthday is "ruined" and he's depressed. Am I supposed to comfort him?   

So what do we do? Pretend it's not my birthday, so we don't make his friend uncomfortable?

Thanks for reading my vent. I'm feeling better already. I'm just a little irked that I will be cooking and cleaning for a guest on my birthday instead of doing something fun.

[clvrnn]

Hey,

Forgive me if this a stupid question, but what would happen if you and your husband just went ahead with the birthday plans - obviously including the boss, but welcoming them along and making it clear this is something you do every year? Would that be possible?

[Baglady]

Hi Cat 

I think you have every right to be irked.  Your vent just reminded me that on my actual due date for my son (it happened to be on Christmas Day), I had to host dinner for seven of my in-laws visiting from out of town.  I protested loud and long about this fact (for once I wasn't my co-dependent, people-pleasing self!) but my voice was drowned out by my exBPDh and his family.  They wore me down.  I was exhausted from the whole event of feeling pressured to host and cook dinner at my most pregnant and then I went into a 27 hour labor (no drugs) before an emergency C-section (life and death) the next day.

Geez, no wonder I'm in low contact with all of them now...

Warmly,
B

[GaGrl]

I agree with planning an evening out, inviting the boss along.

You shouldn't have to entertain if your b-day is a great day.

I'd be OK with that, but then again...Mmy birth"days" usually last a week.

[Cat Familiar]

Forgive me if this a stupid question, but what would happen if you and your husband just went ahead with the birthday plans - obviously including the boss, but welcoming them along and making it clear this is something you do every year? Would that be possible?

Not a stupid question at all. Usually we go out on my birthday, but this is the first year that my birthday has landed on Easter. So in our little town, our favorite restaurants will be closed.

I think you have every right to be irked.  Your vent just reminded me that on my actual due date for my son (it happened to be on Christmas Day), I had to host dinner for seven of my in-laws visiting from out of town.  I protested loud and long about this fact (for once I wasn't my co-dependent, people-pleasing self!) but my voice was drowned out by my exBPDh and his family.  They wore me down.  I was exhausted from the whole event of feeling pressured to host and cook dinner at my most pregnant and then I went into a 27 hour labor (no drugs) before an emergency C-section (life and death) the next day.

What a nightmare, Baglady! That is just appalling! No wonder you don't want to spend time with any of them.

Thanks for the validation. 

You shouldn't have to entertain if your b-day is a great day.

I decided that I wasn't gonna entertain on my birthday. There's a horse show I'm interested in going to and I decided that I would do that and my husband and his friend are welcome to come along. (Unlikely that they will want to do that.)

At dinner I had a nice chat with my husband. I told him what bothered me was that I felt that he was more interested in accommodating his friend than looking out for my interests and it hurt my feelings.

I told him he could easily have managed the situation by merely saying that Sunday was my birthday and saying something like, "We'd love to have you visit on Friday and Saturday and that Cat has plans for her birthday."

The discussion veered into territory about how overly accommodating he is to try and appease others and how that's such a big part of his family dynamic.

I said that I have to really temper my directness so that I don't sound overly assertive with him and that directness can alleviate a lot of issues if you're upfront with people right from the beginning.

He decided to call his friend and ask him to reconsider arriving Friday night, as was the original plan.

We'll see how this all works out.

[Enabler]

Nicely handled Cat.

What did you learn from the experience?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I'm going to get on my soapbox a little about co-dependency. We speak here about the non having these tendencies but pwBPD have them too. PwBPD are concerned with how others perceive them. Since BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, they seem to cater to people who are not as close to them more than their intimate partner.

My H has a hard time standing up to the demands and expectations of other people. He gives in and then feels like a victim of their demands. He very easily says no to me. When it comes to his family, he will say yes to them and ignore my feelings.

He has a relative who tends to drop in unexpectedly to stay with us and he always says yes. This isn't always a good time but if I protest, he tells me he just can't say no. He recently announced that the relative was coming and it was not a good time for house guests. I got upset and his response was "what do you expect me to do?".  Resigned to the fact that I had no say, I just didn't say anything. Ironically - for the first time- he actually thought about it and called them up to tell them it was not a good time. I was shocked actually as this was a first.

I get your situation Cat. I suspect it isn't just about the birthday but the pattern of seeing your H accommodate others and not you. This has irked me too. Eventually I saw it as something I have dealt with as well- a tendency to people please and difficulty saying "no" in general. Now, rather than take it personally, I encourage my H to stand up for himself when he can.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's how it all worked out:
My husband's friend has no problem driving up on Friday and staying until Sunday morning, so all is good in my world. 


What I had imagined happening if I didn't assert my preferences:
The two of them would have sat around the pool (which is too cold to open yet) and smoked cigars, drank cocktails, and talked shop about points of law, old litigations, people I have never met. And I would have been playing hostess (which I don't mind, any day but my  birthday.)

What did you learn from the experience?

I'm certainly getting a lot sassier as I get older. 

My husband dropped the bomb on me about his friend's change of plans after I'd been working really hard putting in new fencing in one of the horse pastures and grading the arena. I was tired and not at my best.

He told me how upset he was about it and how his friend just abruptly changed the plan, then asked me what I thought. I said that I wasn't happy with the situation, but that it was "OK" because I knew how much he wanted to see his friend, who he hadn't seen in a few years.

From there, he went into, "I'll just call him and cancel the whole thing then."  (BPD black and white thinking)

"No you won't," I told him. "If you do, I'll be upset."

From there, things sort of degenerated into him following me around the house like a puppy, trying to monitor my mood. At one point, he said, "You look upset."

I told him I wasn't happy about the situation. "Then I'm going to cancel, if you're not happy." he said.

"No you're not, you want to see him and it's just another day," I said. "Any way, you often tell me that you're not 'allowed' to have feelings. What do you think you are doing right now? Are you allowing me to feel the way I do?" I asked. "I'll get over it, but it will take an hour or two. OK?"

As we talked about it later, it gave me a perfect opportunity to say, "Here's how you could have completely avoided this situation: If you had said at the outset, 'Sunday is Cat's birthday, so Plan B won't work. Let's stick with Plan A.'"

Then I transitioned into talking about how his sisters' indirectness is so annoying to him and how that's such an ingrained family pattern. (I was pushing the envelope here, but I got away with it.   )

To get back to your question, Enabler, what I learned from this: 1. not to engage and "get into the weeds" (no--don't cancel, I'll be mad if you cancel)  and  2. just to develop a plan on my own from the outset (the horse show that I wasn't initially planning on going to because it's quite a drive)

If something like this happens in the future, I'd just throw it back into his lap. "You do whatever you want with your friend. I'm going to the horse show that day."

As it was, I basically gave him the structure, the words, the excuse--all things he, as an adult, should be able to handle regarding being assertive. (And he spent his working career as an attorney.  )

[Cat Familiar]

PwBPD are concerned with how others perceive them. Since BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, they seem to cater to people who are not as close to them more than their intimate partner.

I've always been bemused at how a pwBPD can be mad at me, then suddenly be absolutely charming with an acquaintance or a stranger, then immediately return to the grumpy face and voice tone with me.

My H has a hard time standing up to the demands and expectations of other people. He gives in and then feels like a victim of their demands. He very easily says no to me. When it comes to his family, he will say yes to them and ignore my feelings.

The thing that irritated me the most was how my husband felt so victimized by his friend changing plans and that his feelings were even "worse" than mine.    And I was thinking, "Who the  agreed to this change of plans?"

He has a relative who tends to drop in unexpectedly to stay with us and he always says yes. This isn't always a good time but if I protest, he tells me he just can't say no.

And who exactly does all the cooking, cleaning, laundry for this unexpected guest? I think I know the answer.

He recently announced that the relative was coming and it was not a good time for house guests. I got upset and his response was "what do you expect me to do?".  Resigned to the fact that I had no say, I just didn't say anything. Ironically - for the first time- he actually thought about it and called them up to tell them it was not a good time. I was shocked actually as this was a first.

  Progress. He's having some awareness of how this impacts you.

I get your situation Cat. I suspect it isn't just about the birthday but the pattern of seeing your H accommodate others and not you. This has irked me too. Eventually I saw it as something I have dealt with as well- a tendency to people please and difficulty saying "no" in general. Now, rather than take it personally, I encourage my H to stand up for himself when he can.

Yes. I struggled through this issue myself. Now I really don't care if people think I'm a word that rhymes with witch. If they do, they probably wouldn't like me anyway, so why should I care about their approval?

Last night I told my husband "No is a complete sentence." It feels good to be able to have the confidence to say "No" and sometimes "  NO!" when I really want to.

Thanks clvrnn, Baglady, Gagrl, Enabler, Notwendy.  Y'all are awesome.     bpdfamily rocks   

[Notwendy]

That's a similar situation for me.

My H tells me to sit down. Then tells me relative is coming to spend the night tomorrow.

Then the victim speech: They caught me off guard. What am I supposed to do? ( save me ).

Can you not just say " this is not a good time for us to have company". It was.

What I did differently was also to not engage in debate over this- or else I would have become the persecutor in that triangle.

I just went about my business, but it was clear I wasn't happy. I was actually pretty upset to get less than 24 hours notice about an overnight house guest.

I did say " you can take guest out to dinner, just the two of you as I have plans that this conflicts with". But I didn't get into a drama triangle. I didn't say you can't have Guest here, just that I would do something else.

[empath]

Then the victim speech: They caught me off guard. What am I supposed to do? ( save me ).

Lol. How many times have I heard those exact words from my h? The most recent was this weekend...  Parents, family, business clients, church - all seem to take precedence over me and our children.

[formflier]

This seems like a success story, regardless of how it turned out.  Lots of processing emotions, thinking...and waiting for a better time to address things.  Then letting others process stuff.

At least in my relationship, my wife appears to think about things for a while (and I have no idea) and then she presses (really hard) for an emergency solution.  The old FF was all about trying to provide those.  New FF is no longer an "emergency responder".

I think it's particularly wonderful that you were able to tie your hubby's current actions to family patterns.  I'm really hoping he can find some insight there.  I'm sure it felt good for you to say.

FF

[Harri]

Cat, I am glad you handled things so well!

Happy Birthday!   

[Red5]

Happy Birthday Cat !
 
Red5

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Harri and Red5. Whew! It was an exhausting few days.

My husband's friend was his mentor when he began his career as a lawyer. Mostly he is a very pleasant guy, but he requires an extreme amount of attention, talks incessantly, and speaks in a very low voice, so we had to strain to hear him, particularly when in noisy environments like some of the restaurants we took him to.

Interestingly his former wife was a pwBPD and his FOO consisted of a father who abandoned the family, a mother who sounded like an enabler, and two alcoholic stepdads who beat him mercilessly. He described his current wife as someone who was really kind at times, then very critical and who treats him as though he's eight years old. (Perhaps another pwBPD who isn't as extreme as the first wife.) Those family patterns certainly can predict our choice or partners.

Late in the evening before my birthday, a different side of him showed up: imperious, critical, hypersensitive, judgmental. This happened due to my husband and me sharing skepticism about an issue that we belatedly discovered that he was really invested in. It came as a big surprise to both of us that he would suddenly turn into such a rude and arrogant azz about something so inconsequential in what was previously an interesting and lively conversation--that wasn't about politics, religion or topics that usually can be divisive.

I rather enjoyed crafting a good argument about all the untidy threads that didn't fit neatly into his paradigm, but it was surprising how he began taking it personally, particularly when I mentioned what I perceived as substandard coverage of the issue from his dearly-loved New York Times. That apparently was a line in the sand for him. When I mentioned the majority stake-holder of the paper and the name of the reporter I was criticizing (I'm very good at occasionally remembering trivia), it kind of outraged him because I don't regularly read the Times and he had mentioned that he spent two hours (?) every day reading that paper, yet he didn't know either name I mentioned.

Then the ad hominem critiques began and he kept demanding that I provide an alternate explanation. I told him I didn't have one, just that I was skeptical of the generally accepted conclusions. My husband introjected that it wasn't an evidentiary  hearing and that we needn't supply proof of our skepticism nor alternative theories. (I must admit that I rather enjoyed arguing the topic with a very good lawyer who was losing his cool.)

The next morning he admitted that he felt badly about using words like "you" --basically trying to intimidate me by insinuating that my thinking was faulty--but I wasn't having it the previous evening--it was merely an interesting intellectual exercise for me (that I wasn't emotionally invested in)--and I don't typically get an opportunity to debate things with my husband, because he does take it personally. After the mea culpa about using the ad hominem attacks, I just smiled and said, "I noticed."

Though it was a good excuse to get him out the door the next morning, I was too tired to want to go to the horse show after staying up late the previous evening and he lingered until almost noon before he finally got on the road to return home.

The upshot of his visit was that it was a highly bonding experience for my husband and me as we shared our thoughts after he left on Sunday. We were both emotionally exhausted by his visit and so incredibly surprised at his behavior, but we were completely on the same page with our reactions, so it was a lot of fun to talk about it with each other.

[Cole]

Happy Belated Birthday, Cat! I am glad things worked out.

This year, Mrs. Cole's birthday fell on a Saturday when S had a camp out, D had volunteer time at Church followed by a school dance which W was helping to plan and work as a chaperone, and I had just got back in town from a business trip late the night before. 

Our solution was to celebrate her birthday the following weekend when we had no other plans to interfere and it could truly be all about her. I took her birthday shopping (sorry, ladies, I just don't get the Vera Bradley thing) and we went to dinner. She had a wonderful birthday that way.

Maybe this is a good option if it happens again with visitors or holidays falling on your special day?

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Cole.

In retrospect, it was an interesting visit with my husband's law mentor. My husband is having three simultaneous "feet of clay" experiences with people who formerly were mentors. One is running for office and he has been extremely negatively impacted by her campaign ads. And another is a language teacher who he is noticing has a tremendously entitled attitude.

I'm glad that he's becoming aware of people who he formerly put on pedestals now having flaws, and is able to see this as a positive for himself--that he's become more observant and that everyone has issues.

[formflier]

How has your hubby noticing these things impacted your relationship with your hubby?

I've got to ask...and I'm really hoping you can share more details about the "argument"/discussion that went off the rails.

I've had similar experiences where a person was "highly invested" in a subject and I was only mildly interested, yet I wasn't going to move my "opinion" for their benefit.  Especially when their reasoning seemed flawed or highly emotional.

I'm getting the vibe that's kinda what happened here.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Glad you had this experience with your H Cat. Not to burst a bubble but stay aware of times you feel bonded over a mutual person or situation you disagree with. At one point I looked back and realized that my H and I spent a lot of time discussing someone else, or some situation we are critical of. I wondered if it is easier for us to be "on the same page" when there is a third entity and saw a possible triangle.

It is difficult for us to be on the same page if it is just the two of us. Sometimes I think he has to argue for the sake of not feeling controlled or enmeshed by me- like he can not just agree. I don't expect him to agree with me on everything but sometimes he'll go for the details that aren't of major significance. If I say it's approximately 15 minutes drive and it happens to be 12 or 13, he will bring that up. "NO it's not 15 minutes away, it's 13." Leaving me thinking for goodness sake, just let this go. Sometimes I think if I said the sky is blue he'd argue it was green. Maybe it's both. Two different perspectives but he has to argue it.

If we are both directing criticism at a third party or situation, then I think he is able to direct the argument elsewhere. Perhaps if he hears me be critical of someone else, he doesn't "hear" it ( when it isn't happening ) when he's talking to me. When he's talking to me, he "hears" criticism when it isn't there.

I became sensitive to the triangle when I observed my parents seeming to be bonded when they were both angry at someone else. I then recognized our tendency to do this, and so I have consciously cut back on it. I think it is natural to do this sometimes, but I am wary of the dynamics now. What I wish for is for us to feel bonded in other situations, and try to be less emotionally hurt by his initial reaction to something I say. Once he argues, he often settles down. By then, I was once upset too, but now I see it as how he manages it- he has to argue. He can't just go with the flow, but once he gets it out, he then can settle and talk more.

[Cat Familiar]

How has your hubby noticing these things impacted your relationship with your hubby?

I think he's starting to become more emotionally intelligent. He has been seeing a psychologist every couple of weeks and he seems to be enjoying the sessions. I've noticed that he's not as emotionally reactive as he once was and that he can "reset" more quickly.

I've got to ask...and I'm really hoping you can share more details about the "argument"/discussion that went off the rails.

It falls under the category of "Things where we're supposed to believe the official narrative" when for me, the accepted "truth" has a lot of logical holes. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I'm quite comfortable sitting in uncertainty without needing an alternative explanation. I know that the public is not informed in great detail about a lot of issues for a variety of reasons, but I can't accept on faith things that don't make sense.

My husband's friend was formerly in private practice, but then spent much of his career as a government attorney and seemingly is very invested in the "official narrative".

He took my skepticism as an indictment of people who work in the public sphere, and it wasn't that at all. Both my parents were government employees and I wasn't criticizing individuals who work in that capacity, rather I was noting that the public often doesn't get the "real story" of events, especially ones that have national security implications.

I've had similar experiences where a person was "highly invested" in a subject and I was only mildly interested, yet I wasn't going to move my "opinion" for their benefit.  Especially when their reasoning seemed flawed or highly emotional.

I'm getting the vibe that's kinda what happened here.

Bingo 

[Cat Familiar]

Not to burst a bubble but stay aware of times you feel bonded over a mutual person or situation you disagree with. At one point I looked back and realized that my H and I spent a lot of time discussing someone else, or some situation we are critical of. I wondered if it is easier for us to be "on the same page" when there is a third entity and saw a possible triangle.

Definitely there was a triangle. On the positive side, during the discussion, my husband had my back, not that I needed him to, but it was obvious that his friend was behaving badly and trying to undermine my self-assurance as a way of winning an argument. But it had the opposite effect. When it became apparent that he was using ad hominem attacks, it made me even more centered and all my high school debate team skills reemerged, after many years of dormancy. In addition, the mansplaining was amusing and that was part of my motivation to continue my participation.

Upon reflection, I think it galled him that this uppity woman with no legal training was going toe to toe with him. He now serves in a judicial capacity so he's used to a hierarchical status and I wasn't having it.  

I don't argue or debate my husband, though it would be fun because he's very quick-witted and one of the most intelligent people I've ever met. However his emotional intelligence is sub-standard and he quickly gets upset, defensive, and feels criticized if I have a different opinion. So I've trained myself to quickly back off when I see he's beginning to get triggered. I've learned to catch it so early by looking at his face, his body language and hearing a change in his voice. When I catch it before his amygdala has hijacked his intellect, he can quickly return to status quo and the dysregulation will be headed off.

If we are both directing criticism at a third party or situation, then I think he is able to direct the argument elsewhere.

I think he was appalled that his former mentor behaved in such a churlish manner, especially since we had wined and dined him for days and were a rapt audience for his incessant conversation.

Granted, after he returned home, we perhaps discussed him in far greater detail than was warranted, but it wasn't in a mean-spirited way. I think for my husband it was a wake-up call that perhaps some of these people he had formerly idolized were merely people like him with flaws like all of us have.

I questioned whether he was always like that, if perhaps dementia was in play since his arguments were so weak, or if he had merely gotten carried away with playing the role of judge and being so invested in "the system". It also occurred to me that he had felt so disempowered as a child from being physically and emotionally abused by step-dads, that perhaps he is over-compensating and fearful of losing his power as he ages.

It's always nice when we have moments where we feel that our BPD partner fully understands us, but too easy to presume those moments will last and carry over into other contexts. And yes, my husband started derailing when I had our contractor friend over a couple of days later to do some repairs. (I can be assured that he will dysregulate over household repairs. He doesn't have a clue how to do any of that himself; lots of things are beyond my pay grade so I will hire people to do them and wait for the fireworks. Sometimes it's just a sparkler; other times it's a cherry bomb.    )

[formflier]

The more I've been around government I say this to people.  A healthy questioning of government is a good thing.

Government should be open.  Most "national security" stuff is a bit overblown (IMO) although I get that most of the people doing that are doing it with the right motives.  Better to be safe than sorry...so they "hide" stuff.

I also have personal knowledge of government investigations being "shams" where the investigation was ordered to "find" a result to support the political climate of the day.  I wasn't at tailhook, but had to sign a statement under oath saying that I wasn't there.  I personally knew guys that were there...and knew they had evidence that would somewhat disprove the "victimhood" of many of the "victims"...the obviousness with which the government dismissed this evidence was disgusting.

I'm not arguing that tailhook was a well behaved bunch...I'm sure most of the stories are true.  I'm more focused on the "victims" that got lots of attention based on "what happened" to them, when the truth was more "what they willingly participated in or demanded to be part of"

I'm sure there were some true victims there as well.

Still ticks me off...

FF

[JNChell]

Happy Birthday, Cat. Belated. Sorry for that. It sucks to try and describe what’s bothering us to a person that can’t hear it. I hear you. I’ll also say that this place is what it is because of folks like you.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, JNChell. Right back atcha!