I can't trust my partner with a real estate decision

[snowglobe]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336115.0

Why wait?

If you are able to do it then...why wait?

I'll be frank here...control of a large sum of money is an important thing.  Not a good plan to use that as the first time to introduce a new concept into the relationship.

Best,

FF

I will consult the lawyer as to how to approach this subject in a way that protects my rights. Ff, the sadness is so overwhelming, that I can’t trust my partner with a decision that most of my friends who are couples have done many times. I’m concerned, reasonably, that he can “scr&w me over” financially. Maybe not intentionally, but as an impulsive BPD-ish act. I’m concerned he will look at the overpriced house, overstreatching our budget and then have a freak out two years into the house. I’m worried that this house will further trigger npd, pushing close others away from me. He can say something along the line “look, you live in a hut and I live in a castle” as a “joke” to. Friend. He really enjoys putting people down. When someone cuts him off or takes his parking spot, guess what he yells?. “Stay poor motherf$&ker!”. I’m shaking my head in sadness, grief and repulsion. I have some form of symbiosis of love, pity and fond memories we have shared (when he was idealizing me). It’s like having a terminally ill partner. You love them, but then this rotting inside of them that you notice hardens the soul  

[formflier]

Listen, I'm not sure it it's intentional...but there are several MASSIVELY IMPORTANT questions/issues that are you are not answering either way.  (or maybe you did in a roundabout way)

The paper you signed with your husband was drafted by who?  Reviewed by who?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I'll leave FF to advise you on real estate matters as I have very little experience with this and he has a lot.

For the dynamics of your marriage, yes, your H can basically scr#w you over if he wants to, either intentionally or through his impulsiveness. But the result is the same. I have seen this with my BPD mother. When you say "no" to her it sets her into victim mode. She isn't necessarily intentionally trying to hurt ( although sometimes she is)- she truly believes she is being persecuted and "fights" back with all her might- whatever that is. The target is- something I am attached to. As a child, it was my toys. As an adult, it was my father. She's trashed the house, broken items that were important to us. For your H, the threats involve your security and your financial security.

When she wants something she has to have it, or she feels we are victimizing her. I get where your H is coming from because she had to have the best of everything and my father was able to provide it to a point, and even went into debt borrowing for it. I get the living the high income life style with insecurity due to being over extended, but she bases her self worth on this external and so does your H and possibly your other family members.

This is why your H wants to buy your D the best car she wants, even if a 16 year old doesn't need to have a top model car. It's external and it shows the world what a good Dad he ( thinks  he) is, even if he's abusive to her when nobody is looking. This helps him to mentally erase what he does that she's ashamed of. He is likely to do this with the house too. He mentioned the kids deserve a better vacation than your mother is taking them on, he's not going to let the world see his family in a modest house.

FF and others can advise you on how to protect your share of the house sale as much as you can, or at least make it harder for him to get to, but I don't think he's going to not try to get it, as this isn't his pattern. At least don't make it easy for him, or for you to just give it up if he persists. The lawyer is a potential good boundary for both of you as you would have to ask him to give it up and this gives you time to think.

What can you do? Keep at your degree. One day, it will be you and your H at home and maybe your parents, but the kids will grow up. If you have some work experience by then, you may be able to reduce the fears of his threats to leave you destitute as you won't be.

[formflier]

And if your husband promises to not financially threaten you again...if he is sincere, he will sign lawyer papers for this sale that remove the "tool" of financial threats.

Notwendy is spot on..this is about the relationship.  He threatens..you give in.  He also wants to sell the house.

So...you agree to sell house if he agrees to give up the tool.  Sincerely agrees to give up the tool.

What would your life be like if it's one year from now and your hubby comes to you and says..."you must do xyz and sign abc or I will NOT spend money on our daughter...and all her hard work will go to waste..and it will be your fault because you would not xyz and abc".  (how many times have you heard that?)

Oh...darn..I failed to mention for the 1 year from now scenario that during this sale, he handed you control of the money and gave away his tool.  So..he threatens you, yet you have $20k (or a bigger number) sitting in an account that you control.

What will your post look like?  How much sleep will you loose in the situation above?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Listen, I'm not sure it it's intentional...but there are several MASSIVELY IMPORTANT questions/issues that are you are not answering either way.  (or maybe you did in a roundabout way)

The paper you signed with your husband was drafted by who?  Reviewed by who?

Best,

FF

Ff,
He wrote me a promissory note, written by hand, I took a photo of him holding and note to show it was written by him. The realestate lawyer advised me that my uBPDh can’t take the funds out of his trust until he receives those instructions from BOTH of us, and both of us will sign on it. No, I don’t have anything else in place. In case uBPDh tries to play games, I have enough money to fully retain a family lawyer who will then ask for emergency hearing and psych evaluation. I will only resort to the freeze of the funds in case it gets ugly

[formflier]

So...since he is above board about making sure the promissory note is valid...he will of course be fine with signing a similar agreement drawn up by a lawyer...and have his signature notarized and witnessed.

I'm not familiar with using a picture of an agreement as a substitute for a notary.

2nd issue:  Have you discussed your plan for emergency hearing and psych hearing with the lawyer you plan to retain.  Do they believe it's feasible?  How many have they done before?

FF

[GaGrl]

I guess I don't understand the trust. You call it "his trust," but the lawyer is saying that he can't disperse funds without signatures from both of you. So is it a joint trust?

It seems to me that the trust would require both signatures to put a check into the trust -- whether it were individual (husband's) or joint. Once in the trust, it should require only husband's signature to take funds out -- if the trust is in his name only -- and both signatures if the trust is joint.

Are you depending on an un-notarized note to override an individual trust?

[Notwendy]

Please clarify this. Is the agreement this handwritten paper with the picture of your H holding it? Or do you have a legal document written up by a lawyer and the two of you signing in his presence. Otherwise this picture and paper you have are legally worthless.

Children, and pwBPD ( who have difficulty with emotions) can be motivated to behave in order to get what they want, and once they want it, their motivation is gone. They are motivated externally. You can get a child to do something because he wants a cookie. "eat your peas and you can have a cookie". Now, put the cookie in his hand first and try to get him to eat his peas. This is a normal stage for a child who can be externally motivated.

It takes a certain level of maturity to be intrinsically motivated by other things such as altruism, morality, wanting a long term reward like good health. " I will not eat cookies for dinner because this is not a healthy meal".

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. How does your H act when he really wants something? How does he act once he gets it?  If you think this paper he wrote is trustworthy, then why are you worried?

[formflier]

Perhaps I asked questions a bit out of order.

Have you taken the picture of the promissory note to the lawyer who will take legal action based on that note (if needed) and gotten the lawyers approval that you have all the documentation needed to successfully enforce the promissory note?

FF

[snowglobe]

Perhaps I asked questions a bit out of order.

Have you taken the picture of the promissory note to the lawyer who will take legal action based on that note (if needed) and gotten the lawyers approval that you have all the documentation needed to successfully enforce the promissory note?

FF

Not yet, Ff, I’m getting to it next week, as our house will begin showings.

[snowglobe]

Please clarify this. Is the agreement this handwritten paper with the picture of your H holding it? Or do you have a legal document written up by a lawyer and the two of you signing in his presence. Otherwise this picture and paper you have are legally worthless.

Children, and pwBPD ( who have difficulty with emotions) can be motivated to behave in order to get what they want, and once they want it, their motivation is gone. They are motivated externally. You can get a child to do something because he wants a cookie. "eat your peas and you can have a cookie". Now, put the cookie in his hand first and try to get him to eat his peas. This is a normal stage for a child who can be externally motivated.

It takes a certain level of maturity to be intrinsically motivated by other things such as altruism, morality, wanting a long term reward like good health. " I will not eat cookies for dinner because this is not a healthy meal".

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. How does your H act when he really wants something? How does he act once he gets it?  If you think this paper he wrote is trustworthy, then why are you worried?

He never “screwed me over” financially in the past, but based on the past 2 years I want to protect myself. The note hasn’t been legally notarized

[formflier]

Not yet, Ff, I’m getting to it next week, as our house will begin showings.

Have you both signed the listing agreement?

Does it worry you that you are showing the house and the "legal ducks" are not in a row?  What if you get "the offer you can't refuse"?

This "momentum" has disaster written all over it.  I hope it's not the case.

Are the lawyers handling the real estate closing the same lawyers that you will use to enforce agreements (when your husband breaks/challenges them)?

Who will represent you?

Who will represent your husband?

FF

[formflier]

He never “screwed me over” financially in the past, but based on the past 2 years I want to protect myself. The note hasn’t been legally notarized

Either this is untrue or your prior posts about how he financially treats you up to this point are untrue.  

Snowglobe, I'm not trying to antagonize you, nor am I trying to "push" you into the camp of defending your hubby.  Reality needs to be dealt with.  Before we can help you deal with that..we need to understand reality.

I would hope this doesn't devolve into semantics about "well..he mistreated me financially but didn't screw me over...he tricked me financially but didn't "screw me over"."

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I know for myself as a child who experienced contradictory behavior from a BPD parent - loving and amazing at times, verbally and abusive behavior at others, I tend to minimize the bad behaviors. "it's not that bad". Meanwhile, if others could hear me speak about what happened, they'd be cringing. I know it is hard to look at the situation squarely. I don't think your H is a bad person all the time. Few people are.

This isn't about splitting hairs- whether he screwed you over on paper money, or withheld necessities from you when he wanted to control you. The bottom line: your H uses money as a form of control. You and your family depend on him financially -therefore, he controls you. This is something he likes to have. Any financial independence on your part is not going to sit right with him. He would want control of all the money unless you have a solid legal way to protect your part in this deal. This picture and written paper is not a legal document.

[Enabler]

Don't fill the money funnel with cash until you know where the pipes go!

My W has tried to sell the house 3 times now without a financial order (attached to divorce) in place. Without this she is perfectly within her rites to spend carte blanch AND THEN negotiate capital allocation based on remaining assets and her 'needs'.

Legal documentation is for EVERYONE'S protection, including his... and the kids. It's utterly reasonable.   

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe- I'm not picking at you, I know how hard it is.

As much as boundaries are important, we have to consider what is possible for us to uphold and also what "cost" we are willing to pay for upholding those boundaries. There is usually some cost to them. When we give in - it's because the cost was too high for us to take.

Each time we set a boundary, and the other person raises the ante to get the boundary to go down, and we give in, we reinforce their behavior. The behavior works for them.

You set a boundary to not sell the house. Now you are selling the house and have this "new" boundary, but this is a sliding hill and if you accept his paper and picture as enough, I don't think it will hold up.

To get some of your own power, you need to diminish your dependence on your H and protect that. I like the idea of going for your graduate degree. If you need to protect your share in the sale of the house, please get solid legal documents from a lawyer. The picture/note is not going to hold water in this pattern with you and your H>

[formflier]

Don't fill the money funnel with cash until you know where the pipes go!
 

And..where you can "force" the money to go...vice have a "free for all".

FF

[Cat Familiar]

He wrote me a promissory note, written by hand, I took a photo of him holding and note to show it was written by him. The realestate lawyer advised me that my uBPDh can’t take the funds out of his trust until he receives those instructions from BOTH of us, and both of us will sign on it.

Being married to a lawyer, my  go off thinking about a handwritten promissory note accompanied by a photo. Even well-crafted legal documents can be challenged in court.

You are putting a lot of faith into him behaving well. Didn't you mention that he basically bankrupted you a few years ago by frivolous investments?

So you're putting your house on the market, but you haven't bought anything and you don't want a rental. It seems that you're playing with fire here. What happens if your house quickly sells with a short escrow? You've got a lot of moving parts that all have to fall in place perfectly. And you are putting a lot of trust in your husband's hands even with needing dual signatures.

What if he forges your name? And it's his trust, not a joint trust?

[formflier]

You are putting a lot of faith into him behaving well. 

Exactly!

When what you should do is have a lawyer think through how to accomplish what YOU want ASSUMING your husband behaves badly.

Then...if he behaves well...it all still goes well.

If he behaves bad..you have a decent chance at getting a good outcome.

Right now...you are likely to have a DISASTER!

FF

[snowglobe]

Have you both signed the listing agreement?

Does it worry you that you are showing the house and the "legal ducks" are not in a row?  What if you get "the offer you can't refuse"?

This "momentum" has disaster written all over it.  I hope it's not the case.

Are the lawyers handling the real estate closing the same lawyers that you will use to enforce agreements (when your husband breaks/challenges them)?

Who will represent you?

Who will represent your husband?

FF

We have both signed the listing agreement that takes in effect next week. I’m concerned about a purchase of the new home, as “the unknown” isn’t legally secured.
The lawyers we are using isn’t the one who would enforce the agreement, this one is simply processing  the sale agreement and holds the money until we get another home. UBPDh doesn’t have a family lawyer, I have consulted one in case BPD emerges

[snowglobe]

Either this is untrue or your prior posts about how he financially treats you up to this point are untrue.  

Snowglobe, I'm not trying to antagonize you, nor am I trying to "push" you into the camp of defending your hubby.  Reality needs to be dealt with.  Before we can help you deal with that..we need to understand reality.

I would hope this doesn't devolve into semantics about "well..he mistreated me financially but didn't screw me over...he tricked me financially but didn't "screw me over"."

Best,

FF

Ff, perhaps you are correct about the later statement, I’m getting a tunnel vision. Everything I have shared with the forum in the past stands true. I can’t seem to remember any malicious financial transaction, but unpdh does control me financially

[snowglobe]

This isn't about splitting hairs- whether he screwed you over on paper money, or withheld necessities from you when he wanted to control you. The bottom line: your H uses money as a form of control. You and your family depend on him financially -therefore, he controls you. This is something he likes to have. Any financial independence on your part is not going to sit right with him. He would want control of all the money unless you have a solid legal way to protect your part in this deal. This picture and written paper is not a legal document.

Yes, all correct, I’m going to a lawyer early next week to seek further counsel. I won’t sign any sale agreement until that is in order

[snowglobe]

Being married to a lawyer, my  go off thinking about a handwritten promissory note accompanied by a photo. Even well-crafted legal documents can be challenged in court.

You are putting a lot of faith into him behaving well. Didn't you mention that he basically bankrupted you a few years ago by frivolous investments?

So you're putting your house on the market, but you haven't bought anything and you don't want a rental. It seems that you're playing with fire here. What happens if your house quickly sells with a short escrow? You've got a lot of moving parts that all have to fall in place perfectly. And you are putting a lot of trust in your husband's hands even with needing dual signatures.

What if he forges your name? And it's his trust, not a joint trust?

Cat, in 2007 he made a very risky investment on a stock market and lost it all. The proceedings from sale will be in “lawyers trust”, not in my uBPDh trust, as we agreed to buy as soon as we sell

[babyducks]

The proceedings from sale will be in “lawyers trust”, not in my uBPDh trust, as we agreed to buy as soon as we sell

I've never heard the term 'lawyers trust'.     Is this a discretionary trust?   or a form of a custodial trust?     the type of trust it is, matters in the event of a dispute.

[GaGrl]

Of is it simply an escrow account?

[formflier]

I suspect it is the escrow.  I've heard many lawyers use the term "trust" for those accounts.

Not sure what the proper term is.

Snowglobe,

Do the lawyers you have picked understand your concerns about BPD...getting psych evals and the other things you have posted here?

After they have accurately reflected back your concerns what professional advice have they given you?

FF

[babyducks]

If the money from the sale of the house is held in the real estate attorneys escrow account, what will keep your husband from pressuring you to release some or all of the money to him?

Getting psychological evaluations and legalitarian competency exams is quite difficult.     The bar is set very high and it takes quite a long time.    Even when all parties involved are cooperative.    Getting my mother with Alzhemiers legally protected took years.

[formflier]

    Getting my mother with Alzhemiers legally protected took years.

There was mention earlier of asking for an "emergency" hearing... and if I remember right it was related to an evaluation.

What are your lawyers telling you the timeline will be when you file for the "emergency" hearing.

How does that timeline match up with the closing of your current home and the closing of your next home?

FF

[formflier]

  what will keep your husband from pressuring you to release some or all of the money to him?

I think the photograph of an un-notarized promissory note is supposed to handle this.

FF

[formflier]

Snowglobe,

What's going on in your world?

FF