The day of "next steps" discussion has arrived - need some help

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

After an year long battle in therapy sessions and DBT classes, my uwBPD has finally decided to talk about next steps of our relationship. D word has been floated around and she has not accepted the gravity of the problem yet. But looks like now she understands that it's serious. I need some help to navigate the discussion -
1. Is living separate without filing for divorce going to adversely affect the situation when I actually file for divorce (emotionally and legally)? My lawyer has advised not to leave marital home until legal custody papers are released to her
2. Any tips on how to navigate the discussion? I have read materials on this forum on how to detach. I have read Bill Eddy's book and I have knowledge on DBT techniques. I'm hoping to get out with as less blow out as possible (the ultimate dream we all want while leaving). I would appreciate any tips from real life examples

Appreciate all the wonderful advice from this forum!

[Toad17]

Hi all,

After an year long battle in therapy sessions and DBT classes, my uwBPD has finally decided to talk about next steps of our relationship. D word has been floated around and she has not accepted the gravity of the problem yet. But looks like now she understands that it's serious. I need some help to navigate the discussion -
1. Is living separate without filing for divorce going to adversely affect the situation when I actually file for divorce (emotionally and legally)? My lawyer has advised not to leave marital home until legal custody papers are released to her
2. Any tips on how to navigate the discussion? I have read materials on this forum on how to detach. I have read Bill Eddy's book and I have knowledge on DBT techniques. I'm hoping to get out with as less blow out as possible (the ultimate dream we all want while leaving). I would appreciate any tips from real life examples

Appreciate all the wonderful advice from this forum!

[MeandThee29]

My take:

#1 - Consult a lawyer. Indeed there are custody and abandonment laws that you need to understand although others may of course have insights specific to their situation.

#2 - Take this as an option, but I know of two local cases involving addicted parents with children involved where they staged it like an intervention with a mental health professional who acted as the heavy to say that promises, treatment, and therapy failed, so now divorce was the choice of the well partner. No more tries, just done.

Hopefully others will chime in.

[Toad17]

#2 - Take this as an option, but I know of two local cases involving addicted parents with children involved where they staged it like an intervention with a mental health professional who acted as the heavy to say that promises, treatment, and therapy failed, so now divorce was the choice of the well partner. No more tries, just done.

Hopefully others will chime in.

Thank you, MeandThee29!

[formflier]

If she wants to divorce..why would you leave the home? 

I got the vibe that you were not as onboard with divorce..right?

If I'm correct...a thing to communicate is that you will respect her decisions...but won't "enable" them.  She wants it...she owns it.

FF

[ForeverDad]

Divorce is a fact of life these days, not that it is inevitable but that it's more common than 50 years ago.  The domestic relations courts and the professionals working with courts are generally there to provide a structure for unwinding a marriage or relationship.  If there is a realistic hope that the relationship can be mended, that's what marriage counseling and therapeutic separation try to address.  It is up to each partner to decide how hard and how long to try that approach.

However, if the relationship can't be mended — remember that it takes both working together to make a relationship work and even then there are no guarantees— then it's time to Accept that reality.

Yes, you can try to avoid the worst of the blow-ups and incidents when it's time for the "sorry but it's over" news, but there are limits to how much you can do that.  At that point you need to prioritize what's most important.  That's your welfare and the children's welfare.  (They're connected, if your parenting is limited then that negatively impacts the children.)

One more factor to consider...  Be cautious what information you share and when.  With a change from repair to unwind you need to beware of sharing too much and enabling your spouse to sabotage needed outcomes.  Yes, you share child-related matters including schedules and news.  No, you don't share your strategies and approaches that could become sabotaged.

[Enabler]

Hey Toad17,

Can I clarify who wants is asking for the divorce?

I think it makes a difference as to the direction/tact you take.

FF's points are valid if it is your W that is batting around the D word, Foreverdads advice is good if it is you who thinks you have reached the end of the road.

Each route has inevitable and somewhat predictable consequences which you will needs EYES WIDE OPEN for.

Enabler 

[Toad17]

Thank you FF, ForeverDad and Enabler.

I'm the one who wants Divorce. My uBPDw is trying to paint me as a bad person who is sabotaging the relationship. We had a long no win conversation yesterday. Instead of deciding on the next steps, she kept steering the conversation on how bad I have become. The blame game just didn't end at all. The conclusion was that I should decide and let her know what to do next. She doesn't want to change a bit of her habit to make marriage work, but keeps me accountable for all the things that are going wrong. In her mind "I'm the one starting this storm, so I better fix it". Now her game is to blame me for all the storm she will stir up when we go through Divorce and say "you started it, this is on you".

Looks like I just have to bite the bullet and take the hard route of abandoning her. I wanted to have some conversation which is in the best interest of my child. But she is putting all burden on me to file/ask for Divorce and pushing me towards it, so that I can be painted as a monster and she is the victim. It's so hard.

[formflier]

OK...

If her "bad" behaviors were cut in half...would you still want to divorce?

What ages are your kids?

Have you consulted with an attorney yet?

FF

[Toad17]

If her "bad" behaviors were cut in half...would you still want to divorce?

What ages are your kids?

Have you consulted with an attorney yet?

My primary concern is her inability to accept the bad behavior and her unwillingness to take help. If she showed any signs of accepting the problem, I wouldn't divorce. We went through DBT skills for 3 months and she concluded that she already knew most of those skills! I had started the divorce process 6 months ago but when she said she would take DBT classes, I decided to not file the papers. I had hopes that things would change. But I was wrong.

My kid is almost 5 years. I have consulted an attorney. I'm yet to talk to an immigration attorney because we are not US citizens, but our daughter is a US citizen. This will make my case even more complicated.

[kells76]

Hey Toad17;

Is living separate without filing for divorce going to adversely affect the situation when I actually file for divorce

we are not US citizens, but our daughter is a US citizen. This will make my case even more complicated.

Good questions to be thinking of ahead of time.

Have you looked up member "suisse_chilipep"'s (I think) posts? He's in sort of the inverse situation, IIRC (US citizen in foreign country) and has also been dealing with the question of separation vs divorce, with kids involved. Let me know if you can't find his posts.

I'm yet to talk to an immigration attorney

You might know this already, but you don't have to retain one right off the bat. Try talking with 2-3 in initial consultations (which may range from free to a hundred bucks or so, depending on where you are). In fact, back when I was calling around to find an atty, the first thing the receptionist on the phone would do was cross-reference DH's name & xW's name. Basically if Mom had even chatted on the phone with an atty, we couldn't have used them. Works the other way, too. Just a point to bear in mind.

The atty we ended up using was actually kind enough to do a free 30 min phone discussion with me, before we even came in. So, while it may seem daunting to Retain A Lawyer, hopefully this helps you know that you can ease into it, $-wise, and can just get some info vs making an "all or nothing" decision about a L.

[formflier]

  If she showed any signs of accepting the problem, I wouldn't divorce. We went through DBT skills for 3 months and she concluded that she already knew most of those skills! 

What would a "sign" of accepting the problem look like?

How did the DBT classes get stopped?  Was it classes or with a therapist?

FF

[Toad17]

Have you looked up member "suisse_chilipep"'s (I think) posts? He's in sort of the inverse situation, IIRC (US citizen in foreign country) and has also been dealing with the question of separation vs divorce, with kids involved. Let me know if you can't find his posts.

You might know this already, but you don't have to retain one right off the bat. Try talking with 2-3 in initial consultations (which may range from free to a hundred bucks or so, depending on where you are). In fact, back when I was calling around to find an atty, the first thing the receptionist on the phone would do was cross-reference DH's name & xW's name. Basically if Mom had even chatted on the phone with an atty, we couldn't have used them. Works the other way, too. Just a point to bear in mind.

The atty we ended up using was actually kind enough to do a free 30 min phone discussion with me, before we even came in. So, while it may seem daunting to Retain A Lawyer, hopefully this helps you know that you can ease into it, $-wise, and can just get some info vs making an "all or nothing" decision about a L.

Thanks Kells76. Yes, I have been reading "suisse_chilipep"'s. It was recommended on a different thread. I spent whole day last week to shortlist 5 good attorneys in my area based on review. I'm yet to do the initial consultation with them to decide on a permanent attorney

[Toad17]

What would a "sign" of accepting the problem look like?

How did the DBT classes get stopped?  Was it classes or with a therapist?

FF

Thanks FF. One clear sign of accepting the problem would be to start applying DBT lessons and willing to work on the marriage without blaming everything on one person (me).

DBT was couple session tuned just for us with a DBT therapist. We did it for 3 months. Every week there was some homework to do. For example: appreciate each other for small things, apply XYZ skill, etc. She wouldn't apply the skills or do the homework. I did my part. She was basically attending it for the sake of doing it. After paying close to 2K, I stopped it.

[formflier]

 
So..that would be a clear signal you could give to her.

Have a DBT therapist say you are compliant with therapy or we will divorce.

That's kinda what she indicated last time..right?  But she didn't follow through.  Do I have that right?

FF

[worriedStepmom]

The drawback to therapy - and especially DBT - is that the person truly has to want to change.

If your wife does not acknowledge that she is at least part of the problem, then it doesn't matter how much therapy you insist she go to or comply with...if there are any changes, they will only be temporary, and then she'll revert once you stop watching her so closely.  Because she genuinely doesn't think she needs to change.

It sounds as if you have tried, but you can't be the only one trying.

[Toad17]

Have a DBT therapist say you are compliant with therapy or we will divorce.

That's kinda what she indicated last time..right?  But she didn't follow through.  Do I have that right?

I gave clear signal 6 months ago. I said we don't have a future and I brought the topic of separation. I told her that DBT is the only thing that can save our marriage. She agreed. So my entire Divorce process took an U-turn and I didn't pursue it. I was truly hoping that the classes would make significant impact. They do make an impact if we realize that we need to change. I feel that fear of abandonment cannot be used to push someone and motivate them to take DBT. It might work for some people with BPD but it didn't work for my wife.
She has played "let's talk" game few times and has used Divorce card couple of times, and asked me to go find someone if I'm unhappy (really!). But then she acts like nothing happened and it's business/silent treatment as usual for weeks. DBT therapist warned her to not use Divorce card if she doesn't mean it. It's this cycle that actually pushed me to start thinking of Divorce in the first place.

[Toad17]

The drawback to therapy - and especially DBT - is that the person truly has to want to change.

If your wife does not acknowledge that she is at least part of the problem, then it doesn't matter how much therapy you insist she go to or comply with...if there are any changes, they will only be temporary, and then she'll revert once you stop watching her so closely.  Because she genuinely doesn't think she needs to change.

It sounds as if you have tried, but you can't be the only one trying.

You are absolutely right, worriedStepmom. I couldn't agree more. My wife never acknowledges that she is at least 1% of the problem. She is 100% correct/perfect. I have consulted three BPD specialists in my area and they all agreed that her symptoms match BPD. They all recommended DBT. Now I have lost the last hope to save my marriage and the burden is on me to initiate the Divorce.

[ForeverDad]

At least you tried, and more importantly, you tried smartly.  That is to your credit and you can assure yourself that you did a lot to attempt repair of the marriage.  Most of us members who arrived here, from my perspective, concluded DBT hopes were simply too late to help since they were already separated or divorced.

[livednlearned]

Looks like I just have to bite the bullet and take the hard route of abandoning her.

In my experience, people with BPD feel abandoned all the time. She abandons her own sense of self.

I only say this because the act of divorcing someone with BPD is about protecting yourself. You are taking the hard route of protecting yourself.

My pwBPD feels abandoned when someone doesn't respond to a text immediately. Or someone closes a door. Or drives away. Or walks out of the room. Or has a "weird" look on their face.

I did not abandon my ex, I began to care for myself.

Sometimes when you begin to take genuine care of yourself, the other person changes. Your challenge may be figuring out if that change is too little too late, if she does respond to genuine changes in you.

[formflier]

Sometimes when you begin to take genuine care of yourself, the other person changes.  .

This is happening..very slowly yet undeniably, in my relationship.

There is another thought that usually goes with this process.  That you give your pwBPD the "space" to care for themselves and change.  Basically stop overfunctioning for them and let them decide between blaming (externalizing) or experiencing cause and effect of their own actions/words.

FF

[Toad17]

At least you tried, and more importantly, you tried smartly.  That is to your credit and you can assure yourself that you did a lot to attempt repair of the marriage.  Most of us members who arrived here, from my perspective, concluded DBT hopes were simply too late to help since they were already separated or divorced.

Thank you for the support, ForeverDad!

[Toad17]

I did not abandon my ex, I began to care for myself.

You are right about taking care of ourselves. I started doing it one year ago. I was not having a choice because the stress started affecting my health severely. I rekindled my hobbies and stepped up diet, exercise. But my wife uses this to blame me - "you just care about yourself and not me.. you leave me alone to go to gym.. you do things on your own". She has come to terms now that this is the new lifestyle I have chosen. I always offer her the choice to join me if she likes it. But she never does.

[Toad17]

Basically stop overfunctioning for them and let them decide between blaming (externalizing) or experiencing cause and effect of their own actions/words.

I have stopped over-functioning but that has made our relationship stale. It's just weeks and months of silent treatment and living like two roommates who only discuss on essential needs and end up in no-win arguments most of the time. This has been happening for over an year. This is definitely not the married life I wanted to lead.

[Enabler]

Hey Toad17,

What do you hope the outcome of a divorce is going to be, including how you will interact with you child?

What do you think is a probable outcome knowing what you know about your W and BPD of a divorce, including how you will interact with your child going forward? It's also worthwhile considering your child's probable experience of the divorce and life after the D.

The two are likely very different. I think it's very important to be conscious of the likely outcome when weighing up the merits of continuing to try and trying different approaches vs exiting the relationship.

One thing that struck me was that the DBT training seems like it's been a bit coerced. I'm not suggesting you held a gun to her head to do, but her motivations for doing the training seems like it might be to appease you, rather than an attempt to take a different path. It doesn't surprise me that she's not invested in putting the tools to action and maybe just saw the sessions as a way of appeasing you. Another thing that I noticed is that you are influencing change. "She has come to terms now that this is the new lifestyle I have chosen" She didn't like it to start with but you have taught her that you are not going to change. What other areas of your life/relationship could you influence... silent treatment... passive aggressive behaviour... victimhood behaviour? I mean seriously, what have you got to lose here?

Enabler

[livednlearned]

I rekindled my hobbies and stepped up diet, exercise. But my wife uses this to blame me - "you just care about yourself and not me.. 

That's great you're making yourself a priority. 

I found the next step harder, which was to not allow myself to feel guilty.

And the next step even harder. That while I wished my ex would allow himself to feel about himself the way I was learning to feel about myself, I also had to detach from any hope that he would catch up with me.

[Toad17]

What do you hope the outcome of a divorce is going to be, including how you will interact with you child?

What do you think is a probable outcome knowing what you know about your W and BPD of a divorce, including how you will interact with your child going forward? It's also worthwhile considering your child's probable experience of the divorce and life after the D.

The two are likely very different. I think it's very important to be conscious of the likely outcome when weighing up the merits of continuing to try and trying different approaches vs exiting the relationship.

One thing that struck me was that the DBT training seems like it's been a bit coerced. I'm not suggesting you held a gun to her head to do, but her motivations for doing the training seems like it might be to appease you, rather than an attempt to take a different path. It doesn't surprise me that she's not invested in putting the tools to action and maybe just saw the sessions as a way of appeasing you. Another thing that I noticed is that you are influencing change. "She has come to terms now that this is the new lifestyle I have chosen" She didn't like it to start with but you have taught her that you are not going to change. What other areas of your life/relationship could you influence... silent treatment... passive aggressive behaviour... victimhood behaviour? I mean seriously, what have you got to lose here?

Enabler

These are some excellent thoughts, Enabler. I hope to have 50/50 custody. My primary goal with my child is to have much stronger bond and show her how life outside craziness looks like. It's very hard for me to predict her reaction to the divorce. Her nature of going to the extreme ends makes me think I should predict the worst. I'm reading the important books in this area to absorb more knowledge.

In terms of following different approach to establish new rules, I have thought about it. First of all, I personally feel that I'll be subjecting her to lot of emotional abuse if I follow stricter rules. Even if she has done the same, I don't feel it's right for me to do the same. Second, I don't want my daughter to see that type of dynamics and grow up in an environment where silent treatment is the norm. It's OK for me to stay separate and show how the world looks like in "normal" way. It's hard for me to live in a place where there is no physical or emotional intimacy. I'm not going to look for it after Divorce. I know there will be several years of healing needed. But I have an urge to lead a meaningful life rather than spending all my energy to "change" someone!

[Toad17]

I found the next step harder, which was to not allow myself to feel guilty.

And the next step even harder. That while I wished my ex would allow himself to feel about himself the way I was learning to feel about myself, I also had to detach from any hope that he would catch up with me.

Good one! I'll try to prepare as much as I can. I do anticipate lot of guilt. I'm yet to imagine the "catch up" part. To be honest, I don't know how that feels like. It must have been hard on you. Good to know that you have moved past the phases and you are stronger than ever!

[worriedStepmom]

My primary goal with my child is to have much stronger bond and show her how life outside craziness looks like. It's very hard for me to predict her reaction to the divorce. Her nature of going to the extreme ends makes me think I should predict the worst. I'm reading the important books in this area to absorb more knowledge.

My D was almost 5 when her father and I separated, and she needed therapy.  She was acting out (only with me) and had constant stomach aches.  A year and a half of play therapy gave her the skills she needed to work through her feelings and learn to soothe herself.

My H divorced his uBPDex when their daughter was 2.  His reason was much the same as yours - to show her what a normal, healthy home could look like.  (In fact, when we were engaged he told me that my role as a stepmom was to demonstrate that not all women/wives/moms are reactive and crazy.)  When she turned 10 and H filed for primary custody because uBPDex's behaviors were causing SD anxiety, H finally told her that he divorced her mom because he wanted to allow SD and himself both a safe space to be themselves because mom was always going to be mom. (SD had been asking "why" for several years and her mom said she didn't know, and H told her she wasn't old enough yet).  I thought she'd be devastated, but that sharing actually brought them closer together, and I think it made her transition to living with us easier.  She understood that he would do whatever it takes to protect her.

You are doing the right things.  Divorce is traumatic. It's hard and it's stressful and emotionally sometimes you just want to break down.  But in the long run, you and your daughter will be better off, and hopefully your wife will also be happier.

[Toad17]

My D was almost 5 when her father and I separated, and she needed therapy.  She was acting out (only with me) and had constant stomach aches.  A year and a half of play therapy gave her the skills she needed to work through her feelings and learn to soothe herself.

My H divorced his uBPDex when their daughter was 2.  His reason was much the same as yours - to show her what a normal, healthy home could look like.  (In fact, when we were engaged he told me that my role as a stepmom was to demonstrate that not all women/wives/moms are reactive and crazy.)  When she turned 10 and H filed for primary custody because uBPDex's behaviors were causing SD anxiety, H finally told her that he divorced her mom because he wanted to allow SD and himself both a safe space to be themselves because mom was always going to be mom. (SD had been asking "why" for several years and her mom said she didn't know, and H told her she wasn't old enough yet).  I thought she'd be devastated, but that sharing actually brought them closer together, and I think it made her transition to living with us easier.  She understood that he would do whatever it takes to protect her.

You are doing the right things.  Divorce is traumatic. It's hard and it's stressful and emotionally sometimes you just want to break down.  But in the long run, you and your daughter will be better off, and hopefully your wife will also be happier.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm glad to know that there is some silver lining. I'll explore the therapy option for my D when the time arrives.

[Enabler]

Sorry to be a party pooper. I think it’s important to give you a balanced view of the outcomes and avoid cheerleading. In some circumstances life will be better for you and for your daughter, for some life won’t be better, especially not for your daughter. As confusing as it is for you as an adult to comprehend your Ws behaviours, think what damage it does to a young mind... if you can’t comprehend what that looks like then read some posts on the children of parents with BPD board. Similarly read more posts here for what coparenting and divorce process looks like.

If D is the route you wish to take, don’t go looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow you’ve painted.

Enabler