What Could Repercussions be of Insulting/Threatening Texts?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello everyone!

I have a question regarding something which occurred over the weekend with my oldest son.  Our youngest son was with a uBPD who broke up with him about 2 months ago.  They have been cordial to each other in spite of the fact that she told him she was leaving him for someone else, had cheated on him before and did not love him anymore.  I believe they are cordial because he is still fearful of her and her actions.  They were together for 5 years and have blessed us with our one and only grandson who is 3.

Our oldest son has always been the younger son's protector all his life, but they are grown men now.  My oldest son is like me.  We show our anger, wear our feelings on our sleeves and really don't take much $%#$ from people.  My husband and younger son (with the ex-uBPD) girlfriend are the same in that they are very laid back and it takes a lot to anger them.

The past 5 years have been holy hell dealing with the uBPD girlfriend and actually my son, who she has complete control of.  This drove my oldest son and I crazy, but especially the effect her absences were having on the children.  He was with the kids literally 90% of the time.  They would go for a few days at a time and not even see their mom.

I guess the pot just boiled over for my oldest son and he started texting her some very mean and vulgar things.  She works at a bar so he said he may just show up there when she was working, and she wouldn't know when.  He also tried calling her repeatedly and she would not answer.  She has now changed her phone number.  She told our youngest son that "his family scared the hell out of her."  My husband really has not had words with her.  I have  had a few arguments with her over the past 5 years, but no name-calling or vulgarities or threats.  Unfortunately these were in my oldest son's text messages to her.

I'm wondering if she has any legal right to ask that our grandson not be around our oldest son because of this.  Are there any repercussions that anyone can think of by him doing this? 

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

I have a question regarding something which occurred over the weekend with my oldest son.  Our youngest son was with a uBPD who broke up with him about 2 months ago.  They have been cordial to each other in spite of the fact that she told him she was leaving him for someone else, had cheated on him before and did not love him anymore.  I believe they are cordial because he is still fearful of her and her actions.  They were together for 5 years and have blessed us with our one and only grandson who is 3.

Our oldest son has always been the younger son's protector all his life, but they are grown men now.  My oldest son is like me.  We show our anger, wear our feelings on our sleeves and really don't take much $%#$ from people.  My husband and younger son (with the ex-uBPD) girlfriend are the same in that they are very laid back and it takes a lot to anger them.

The past 5 years have been holy hell dealing with the uBPD girlfriend and actually my son, who she has complete control of.  This drove my oldest son and I crazy, but especially the effect her absences were having on the children.  He was with the kids literally 90% of the time.  They would go for a few days at a time and not even see their mom.

I guess the pot just boiled over for my oldest son and he started texting her some very mean and vulgar things.  She works at a bar so he said he may just show up there when she was working, and she wouldn't know when.  He also tried calling her repeatedly and she would not answer.  She has now changed her phone number.  She told our youngest son that "his family scared the hell out of her."  My husband really has not had words with her.  I have  had a few arguments with her over the past 5 years, but no name-calling or vulgarities or threats.  Unfortunately these were in my oldest son's text messages to her.

I'm wondering if she has any legal right to ask that our grandson not be around our oldest son because of this.  Are there any repercussions that anyone can think of by him doing this? 

[Turkish]

There are no "Uncle's Rights." She can choose to cut off anyone she chooses to.  If you're asking about your younger son's custody time,  then that's none of her business, though she could go to court and likely get a TRO rather easily, especially since she has evidence.  I'm sensing that your younger son doesn't have a legal custody order yet.  Is he going to file or get her to agree to one? In California, you can file one with the court without going to court if both parents agree to the verbiage.

[Angie59]

What is a TRO?  Also, my son does have a 50/50 custody paperwork ready, just waiting for him to tell her about it and get it signed at his attorney's office, if she agrees to it, of course.  I don' t believe she will since he has an attorney and wants it legalized, and she is not the one who made it up, so that takes away her control - and she just won't go along with that! 

So, you're saying she could keep the child's uncle from seeing him even when in his father's custody?  Wasn't real clear. 

Thanks! 

[Angie59]

Turkish,

Just an added note:  My son is getting about 80% of a "verbal" 50/50 agreement the uBPD ex-girlfriend made up herself.  She does not value her time with her children and is very distracted by new boyfriend, clubbing, etc...  which is why my son has his child the majority of the time, which he likes and wants.  He's not presenting her with the paperwork because he says he "doesn't want to rock the boat" since they are getting along right now - my thoughts are he is used to, and still is, operating out of fear.  I get that.   It's just sad, and I feel he really needs something in writing. 

My oldest son will be devastated if he cannot see his nephew.  They are very close and I'm praying this does not happen.  He acted out of anger and I'm not defending his actions - but this has been a boiling pot for 5 long years and the lid just blew off for him.  What a mess!

[ForeverDad]

Does anyone have texts, emails or recordings of her ranting or raging at the older brother?  That may offset any claims she makes.  It won't excuse what he said but may be a mitigating factor.

This may not be technically correct but there appear to two parenting patterns with BPD.   One is more common, where the pwBPD views the children as extensions of him/herself and in such cases court is more likely to be used as a weapon, particularly against the stable parent.  Less commonly mentioned here is another group, where the pwBPD seeks out other adult relationships, more likely to have a string of affairs and the children are peripheral to that parent's life and lifestyle.  Could she be among that latter group?

Maybe you all can hold your breath in case this all blows over as her attention is elsewhere?  Of course, meanwhile older brother (all of you!) needs to learn not to vent in any way that can be documented against him in case harassment or stalking allegations are filed.  Courts do take harassment and stalking seriously.  The longer nothing happens then the better it is all around.  Once it hits 6 months he can breathe easier, most courts seem to ignore incidents once they age out of being potentially 'actionable'.

It is very important that younger brother documents the level of parenting he does get.  It isn't enough to say "he always..." or "she always..." (by themselves vague claims will be ignored by the court as hearsay) without supporting docs (calendar, journal, diary, etc) that give details such as dates, times, locations, events, etc.  If he has 90% of parenting, then he needs to have records confirming that.  That will mean a lot later on since the level of parenting is a major factor if court gets involved.

TRO - temporary restraining order

About son's 50/50 attempt.  If it doesn't work and it goes to court he should forget about being the nice and fair guy.  He has majority parenting now and that ought to continue.  Problem is that most courts give default preference to mothers because, well, they're mothers.  He may think being fair will impress the court but it probably won't.  And the mother almost surely won't ever reciprocate his sense of fairness.

There's a saying here... The parent behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the parent behaving well seldom gets credit.

[Angie59]

Dear Forever Dad:

I am hoping that she is in your second description of parenting.  She certainly seems to fit that to me.  However, she is someone who will play dirty and get you back if you piss her off, so not sure which way she will go.  It really should not be taken out on my youngest son, (her ex-partner) as he is not the person who did it; his older brother did.  The vulgarities, insults, etc. were texts to her and her only - they never indicated anything about the child, so he isn't showing he is of danger to his nephew. 

I don't know how the court system works because I have never had to be involved in one fortunately.  I just don't want my family to be hurt even more than we have been for the past 5 years with all of the horribleness that went on. 

My youngest son is still afraid of standing up for himself.  I am helping him keep documentation on when he has his son and he has some corresponding texts as to when she was supposed to have him and asks for various reasons if he would take him instead because of something that came up, or something she has to do...  She does not use good judgment either in my opinion as a parent.  The first night the kids (she has a 5 year old girl from a previous relationship), spent with her at her new place, she had her new boyfriend also spend the night.  The 5 year old was asking my son about it the next day when she spent some time with him. 

I know none of this has to do with what I originally posted for.  Just giving you an idea of just a bit of how she is.

[Angie59]

P.S. to Forever Dad:

There are no texts, e-mails, or voice recordings of her with my older son or myself for that matter during past arguments because she backs down all the time.  She just sits there and doesn't argue back and gets very intimidated.  Then she gets back at you some other way.

[Turkish]

I remember your descriptions of her "phoning it in" as a mother (my words), and your son taking care of the kids while she neglected them while she had her dalliances.

It's frustrating, but his brother needs to back off. Your son needs to document, as FD says. Given her neglect, she might be open to at the very least joint custody, or more. His brother's involvement won't help as this is triggering to her and might result in she circling her wagons where previously she might not have. 

[Angie59]

I may sound like I'm repeating myself and I apologize ahead of time if I am.  My main concern is if ex-uBPD girlfriend has the ability or right to keep our grandson away from our oldest son due to his texts I talked about.

He lives with my husband and I which would mean he could not come to our house anymore. 

Also, at this time, ex-uBPD has not been told about the paperwork made up by my son's attorney which is asking for 50/50 custody, no child support.  I do not believe she will sign this; however, my son is more optimistic than that and thinks she will.  It doesn't matter either way because he has not told her about the paperwork and she believes at this time that they are just parenting according to a schedule she herself made up, but has yet to stick to! 

She also is very discouraging to my son about obtaining a lawyer - in the very beginning, and has reiterated this to him since then, that there is no reason to spend money on lawyers that neither one of them have and they can just do this themselves with the schedule she made up and work together on that.

The result of this is she basically does not keep to the schedule, also throws her (not my son's) daughter into the mix as well, and to me it is just a ticket for her to do what she wants because she knows that she can get whatever she wants from my son.  I hate to say it, but she is right.  He does not stand up for himself because I believe he is still in the FOG and is very afraid of her reactions and retaliations so he is convinced the best way to go about this is to keep the peace with her and remain cordial.  There may be something to that; however, he has not even changed the passcode to his ADT system at his house, so she can see who comes and goes, go into his home whenever she wants, etc...  So no conversation about legal paperwork for custody, no changing the passcode to the house, no doing anything that may upset the apple cart. 

This is where we, as his family become so frustrated.  You can't make someone do something they don't want to do and we so badly want to see him stand up for himself.  He has practically raised her daughter for the past 5 years by himself as well as his own biological son who just turned 3.  He is keeping documentation of his time with the kid(s) and for the month of May it came out that he had the kids 78% of the time compared to her 22%.  I really don't see this trend changing. 

She clearly does not value the time she spends with her children.  We know that mothering is not her strong suit and we accept that - have read and received much info on this very website about BPD.  It is so scary to think that things may just go in her favor.  My son doesn't believe she will object to the signing of 50/50 custody - not sure why he believes this of her since she needs to be in control at all times.  I don't know why she would want more time since she does not seem capable or willing now to even meet 50%, but I do know she will do what it takes to get her own way and if she gets full custody (my nightmare) she will just do what she did to my son - eventually have them take care of the kids and go running around.  Problem is - not too many guys out there like my son who will put up with that, I don't think.

This has truly been one of the hardest situations I have had to face in my life.  It has been like one ongoing nightmare that I just don't ever wake up from!  I'm sure many of you can relate to that. 

[worriedStepmom]

That's terrific that he has started documenting.  It has to be a little eye-opening for him to realize that he has the kids 78% of the time.  (Note that many courts count time percentage as overnights only.)

Courts like to keep the status quo.  If he is taking care of them that much, it makes sense for him to ask for a 70/30 or 75/25 split.  (The standard, in my state, is about 60/40.  Other states may differ.)

Your son needs to tell his lawyer about the older son's outburst, and ask if there are any legal consequences to that.  We aren't going to be able to tell you what the ex may or may not be able to ask for based on that level of harassment.

How are you doing at disengaging a little bit from this and not push your son as much for a little while?  Have you thought about going to see a counselor?  It's obvious that this situation is paining you (as well it should), and it might help to see someone to talk out some of your frustration and fear.

And, if you can, encourage your son to see a therapist.  A relationship ending is difficult to deal with, plus he has two likely scared and upset little kids, plus he's got a crazy ex, plus he's got family pushing him very strongly to do something that scares him.  It would probably be good for him to go talk to someone, too - and that can also help him start to come out of the FOG.

[Angie59]

Hello WorriedStepMom!   

Believe it or not, it was not really eye-opening as to the amount of time that my son has the kids because this is the way it was (or even more so) when they were together.  I had offered to help him with the documentation in the beginning and together we had counted up the percentage - we did include only the overnights.  This is, what I believe, she is capable of.  She has full custody of her daughter (not biologically my son's but he has been with her since she was 4 months old, now 5 years old).  Since the split-up, in spite of the court orders for her biological dad, he has been taking his daughter for numerous days now.  It's baffling that the uBPD will demand upon others what she cannot do herself.  She is upset with him taking her more than the court dictated, yet she is not willing to take her much at all!  Rules for everyone else, no rules for her.  That's the way it's always been.

I am trying hard to disengage somewhat from all of this.  Unfortunately I suffer from an anxiety disorder and it causes me to ruminate on problems and upsetting things in my life.  I am taking a new medication for it as well as seeing a therapist, so doing what I can to help myself.  I have to as this has been the focus of my life for way too long and taking up way to much head space. 

I do understand that my son is still in the FOG and have empathy for him.  I just get frustrated because he is so easy-going and lax with things and she is so aggressive, I feel she will steam roll over him and that's one thing when they were in a relationship, but it is important that he get a little tougher now and be ready for the unexpected.  I also understand that he has to do things in his own time.  It's just been really hard to step away at such a crucial time that involves our grandson and his well being.  I just don't want his procrastination or lax attitude end up having a negative effect on his having the most time possible with his son.  He will end up being the innocent victim in this.

You brought up some really good points.  By the way, I live in Missouri so I'm not aware of what the laws are here regarding percentage of custody, etc...  The only source I have for learning is this board as well as when my son talks to his lawyer - another thing he procrastinates about!  So it has been frustrating. 

[livednlearned]

My main concern is if ex-uBPD girlfriend has the ability or right to keep our grandson away from our oldest son due to his texts I talked about.

I would separate out the legal stuff from the emotional piece.

I'm not a lawyer -- no one here is. This is my best guess at what would happen: Legally, she would have to first get a custody order and it sounds like she doesn't want to be involved with lawyers and courts. Then, once the custody order was in place, she would have to file a motion to modify it. Courts where I live hate this kind of stuff. There would probably be a wrist slap that made everyone feel silly for bringing it in front of a judge. Stuff like this clogs up the court system where there are real issues (DV, child abuse, child neglect, etc.) going on. From what you describe, it sounds like she is conserving her energy to party and hook up. It takes a lot of effort to follow through on court actions and she's not even trying to get the basics covered.

Also, when my ex sent threatening texts and emails and voicemails, he didn't say how he was going to hurt me, or with what object. Law enforcement basically shrugged.

And not to minimize the verbal threats/texts -- he definitely has to cool it, even if he feels 5 years worth of provocation -- but if he did end up in front of a judge and said, "Wow, am I ever embarrassed that I lost my cool like that. I was feeling protective of my bro and since then I looked into some anger management classes blah blah blah." The judge would probably say, Cool -- don't do it again. I don't want to see your lot in here again.

On the emotional side, given your son's ex BPD traits, it might be good to let this incident blow over a bit before giving her any papers. The more the ignores her own custody arrangements, and the more time your son gets, the more status quo develops, which will make it easier if she decides to fight things out in court.

The other stuff, with pass codes and your son's codependence, are tricky. It's his life, as hard as it can be to watch all that suffering and doormatting, only he can grow his own backbone.

The best you can do for him is to build him up -- point out where he's knocking it out of the park. People in BPD relationships get really beat down.

For now, maybe suggest, "Hey, what do you think about waiting until this texting episode blows over a bit before serving papers? It might have a more positive outcome if she has had a chance to get regulated, and it seems to take her a while to return to baseline. She is really agitated right now. What are your thoughts?"

"You're handling this really well. Sucks that your brother did what he did, I can understand if you're irritated. We want to help you get a good outcome so let us know how we can support you, and keep everyone in grandson's life."

Something like that?

[ForeverDad]

Courts like to keep the status quo.  If he is taking care of them that much, it makes sense for him to ask for a 70/30 or 75/25 split.  (The standard, in my state, is about 60/40.  Other states may differ.)

My court started us out with 78/22 in her favor, then 50/50 two years later, then 75/25 in my favor nearly 6 years later when it addressed her continued disparagement of me.

From my story you can see that my court was reluctant to make big changes to the existing arrangements.  I had to keep going back until the conflict and obstruction reduced.  It took 8 years in steps to go from my 22% time  to 75% time currently.  So strange that even with all the documented problems she demonstrated over the years, she currently has more time (25%) than I had at the start and that was only because I was a working father.  Well, court's a judicial system, not a justice system and not based on fairness either.

... The goal is to not let ex chip away at it or intimidate you into gifting pieces away.  Remember, appeasement not only doesn't work, it will make ex feel your boundaries are weak and incite ex to press even more.  If your ex is entitled as are many ex-spouses described here then... Odds are mediation, when attempted, will fail, at least early i n the case, ex will probably still have a sense of entitlement that early.  Odds are that you'll need a Custody Evaluation.  Your lawyer may recommend a Psych Eval but that may not be enough if it's only testing, you need someone to test and interview multiple times so ex is less likely to fool the professionals.  Besides, a test only reveals certain mental issues, not how they impact parenting and the children.  That's what a CE can do if you select a perceptive and respected CE.

My court was reluctant to make drastic changes to our order.  As my lawyer described it, court doesn't want to upset the child.  (I asked back, what if not making substantive changes upsets the child?)

[Angie59]

Just wanted to say thank you for all of your responses.  There is much wisdom and great advice on this board and I really appreciate the support I have gotten through you.

At this point, I agree that letting things blow over and just keeping calm and letting things unfold as they have been regarding my son's time with his son is probably the best thing to do.  I plan to continue to keep helping my son with the documentation and giving him support.  I remind myself that other family members, including myself, were not in this relationship and do not know what he endured being with his ex-uBPD.  She never openly had arguments or devaluing of him in front of us and never argued back with us when things got heated between us; however, we did unfortunately see her lose her cool with her daughter and it was horrible.  So it just gave me some insight as to what she probably did put my son through as well.  Very demeaning, raging and uncalled for. 

We had a neighbor of our son's tell us that she heard her yelling and came outside to see what was going on.  Her daughter, around 3 at the time, had vomited in the car and instead of comforting her, since this usually scares most kids, she was yelling at her for getting sick in the car.  The neighbor said she felt so sorry for the little girl as she was crying and looked scared. 

My biggest problem is I want her to have her day of reckoning.  I want her to be held accountable for her actions, especially those toward the kids. 

Somehow, I doubt I will ever see this day.  I can only hope. 

Oddly, there is also a small piece of me that knows that people that have been hurt, hurt others.  I feel a little bit sorry for her because I don't believe she is truly happy in her life and may never be.