Where do sex issues in my r/s stem from and what can I do about it?

[Libra]

Hi,

Well, this is a touchy subject.  For a second I considered making a new account to post anonimously on an anonymous site

I have a great r/s with my hubby. We both have our sensitivities, but we respect each other and try to give each other enough space and support.
There is only one area in our r/s that causes major stress, frustration and even anger, and that is sex.
I have been very reticent to post about this. We have been struggling with it for 20 years now. Staying with my MIL during renovations and sharing a bedroom with our children has only escalated the issues. We have talked about it recently, but we seem unable to understand one another, or to compromise.

Oh heck. Where to start...
Sex is not that important to me. I have seen it used and abused too many a time as a teen. I was not a victim myself. People used to call me the Ice Queen because I was untouchable, and that was fine by me. Maybe I am frigid, who knows. It is a fact that I can get by without sex for a long time, and not suffer from it. For me, sex is only ‘useful’ or ‘fun’ when I am emotionally and physically in a good place, and when there is a ‘connection’.  Yeah, that limits the amount of time I feel like having sex considerably 

My hubby is the opposite. He needs sex as an outlet. It is something purely physical he needs and wants me to share with him. I can understand that. But for some reason, I cannot freely give it.

And so we always go through the same cycle: he initiates physical closeness. I cramp up because I’m not in the mood. If he doesn’t get it from my physical reaction, I communicate it clearly, and he backs of reluctantly. But he won’t back off long, as his need is still there. The more often he initiates, the more I feel cornered. I push him away harder, and he gets more frustrated. The problem is that there is no middle ground. As long as he feels this need, he cannot just cuddle, or chat, or anything without getting all touchy feely. It angers me no end that he cannot just control a physical need and dumps this burden of ‘giving in’ on me. It feels as a constant invasion of my ‘space’. Then his frustrations bubble over and he starts guilting me ‘You never initiate sex at all’ (mostly true), ‘Why can’t you just let go and give me what I need?’ (I have no idea). This guilting makes me even more angry, and I end up feeling like a ‘thing’ instead of a partner.

I don’t understand what my problem is. I know sex is part of a relationship. Sometimes the sex is great, often less so, but I think that is also part of it. I trust DH, I love him, I know he respects me and would never hurt me. I simply don’t understand why I freeze up, why I can’t give, why it makes me feel ‘used’, why this is such a hot potato for me.

I don't know if this belongs here on the board. I don't know where my issues stem from. I feel misunderstood and cornered, but also selfish and guilty.

Thanks for reading this far...
Can others relate?

Libra.

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[zachira]

As a woman, know you are not alone in wanting more connection and less sex. You might want to check out the books of Diana Richardson, some of which are co authored by her husband Michael. She and her husband lead making love workshops and she is the first author I have read that makes sex about connecting with each other versus a bunch of techniques.

[No-One]

Hi Libra:
Congrats on being brave enough to start this thread!

Growing up, did you get any particular message from your mom about sex?  How about any message or preconceived notion about your parent's sexual relationship?

Sometime, parents can put a script in your head.  My mom made comments that led me to believe that she wasn't very enthusiastic about sex.  I, also, was told by my mom that if I ever got pregnant out of wedlock, I'd be disowned. 

Have you checked with your doctor about your hormonal levels?  Some women can run a bit low on the optimum levels, especially starting at perimenopause.

I agree with what Zachira said about women wanting more connection.  Little positive things that happen during the day (a hug, a kiss or some loving deed) can help set the stage for sex later.  Unfortunately, most men didn't get the memo.

Have you thought about a few visits to a sex therapist? 

 

[itsmeSnap]

Hey libra

What do you mean by "connection"? Do you have an example when things flowed like you want them to?

I have been on the other side of that and it can be frustrating not knowing "what's missing" (easy to fall into the "I love you, you love me, what's happening?" mindset), so having a way to "hint" him into what you need (closeness, connection) when he hints his physical affection needs could be something worth looking into.

We often talk about the bad "push-pull", but I think it has its rightful place in a relationship. He asks for physical, you ask for emotional. ask for it like he asks for it. Give a little physicality (doesn't have to be too sexual/romantic: a kiss, a bear hug, caress to the face, whatever works for you) when he gives you connection (here your example comes into play for what that means)

Its about finding a balance, it's a give and take. you both have unmet needs, great that you're working on it 

Unfortunately, most men didn't get the memo

True, though it works both ways I guess

For me at least, don't know about other guys/men, physicality isn't just about sex, its a way to be close (physically, emotionally), feeling good about it and yes, feeling connected. Happy interactions follow naturally from that, if not then I'm worried about "what's wrong" and things don't move as smoothly.

Its definitely a catch-22 

[Libra]

Zachira,

Thank you - as always - for your supportive reply. It helps to know other people understand what I am trying to say. 
I may indeed look into the works of Diana Richardson. Maybe I can find some time for that this summer.

 

Libra.

[Libra]

Hi No-One 

Thanks for replying! 

I cannot recall any instance of physical affection between my parents. We also never talked about emotions. I seem to struggle with both those things as an adult.
When my brother turned 18, my parents bought a book on sex and sexual reationships. My brother spent a couple of days in his room reading it, and then it was handed on to me. That was our sexual education.

I do struggle with hormone issues, but the sex issues have actually been there since the beginning. It is truly the only issue we cannot seem to solve and that keeps popping back up regularly.

Is it really just a difference in 'interpretation' between men and women? As a teen, I saw a lot of sex power-play. Women and young girls being conquered and then discarded. I have to say it didn't give me a positive connotation to sex. Add the instances where I was sexually initimidated myself (a pervert sitting next to me in the train when I was 19 or so, sliding his hands higher and higher on my legs; a teacher leaning in just too close beside you, leaning his arms on the desk on both sides, you stuck in the middle; a colleague at work joking that it's fun that I would kneel for him when I lean on one knee besides his desk to ask him a short question, ... ), sex has just become so laden with anger and resentment, and a feeling of unfairness. I guess this is a list most women can relate to...so why is it such a big issue for me personally? I can't even watch a movie where a woman is abused or unfairly treated simply because she is a woman. I get hyper emotional and I have to stop watching. I feel the unfairness, the inequality, and anger and sadness just rise up in me like a giant wave I can't control.

Okay, I don't know where all that just came from, but it is all true, and this mix of confused emotions are always there, just below the surface.

A sex therapist?   I've only just found the courage to talk about it here. I really couldn't talk about this to a person face-to-face. I guess it's till a huge taboo for me...

Thanks for making me think, No-one (I do not agree with the name, BTW ;-) )



Libra.

[Libra]

Hey Snap,

Thanks for joining into the discussion! It's good to hear the other side of the story.

I know my husband struggles with this issue just as much as me. It's not that I blame him. I do think there is a real difference in the way men and women value and process sex. Funny though, as a kid I was convinced men and women where equal and anything a man could do, a women could do as well. I was a real tomboy 

I can't really explain what I mean with connection. I think I need some kind of healthy mental balance, for starters. If I'm stressed out or physically not feeling well, I will NOT be in the mood for sex. I do not expect my husband to 'detect' this, I do expect him to respect it and back off, without re-initiating in the middle of the night, or the morning after, for example. Another example: When we have had a heated discussion about something, I need time to process on my own. My husband needs to kiss and make up. He needs the physical closeness to re-bond. I guess we just have a very different way of processing things.

Thanks itsMeSnap, for giving another persective.

Libra.

[Harri]

Is it really just a difference in 'interpretation' between men and women? As a teen, I saw a lot of sex power-play. Women and young girls being conquered and then discarded. I have to say it didn't give me a positive connotation to sex. Add the instances where I was sexually initimidated myself...

Is it different when you take the initiative and lead with your husband?

[Libra]

Hi Harri, 

That's a really great question. Yes, it does make a difference. It shouldn't though, should it? I have no reason whatsoever to mistrust my husband.
I used to rebuke almost every time, then reset my mind and try to re-initiate myself. I know that was very confusing for DH.
It's  as if I feel blindsided, rebuke, accept in my mind that this is not an 'attack' or has no 'bad intentions' but is innocent and natural and only then try to signal that I'm open for more. It makes me feel very selfish and controlling, and it's way too cerebral. I can't just let go and follow my physical signals and my emotions 

Okay, I'm kind of glad I posted about this, because I sense it's something I really struggle with. I still can't see a way out or a solution though...

Thank you, Harri



Libra

[Harri]

It shouldn't though, should it?

I don't know how 'should' fits into this honestly.  In a perfect world maybe?

Even though there is no overt sexual abuse in your background (right?), there was enough emotional abuse in your past to make trust an issue especially in areas of vulnerability like sex.   At least that is where my mind goes.  It might not be trust, it could be another issue.  Certainly nothing that has to do with your husband or even anything in the present.

It's  as if I feel blindsided, rebuke, accept in my mind that this is not an 'attack' or has no 'bad intentions' but is innocent and natural and only then try to signal that I'm open for more. It makes me feel very selfish and controlling, and it's way too cerebral. I can't just let go and follow my physical signals and my emotions.

I think this might be workable though Libra.  Is it just the initiation of sex where the issue is?  As in you need a lead in or a heads-up... a preamble of sorts?     Might that help?  I am not suggesting you schedule sex (Though some couples do.  Personally that would give me performance anxiety but whatever... )  Are you okay once things get going?

I still can't see a way out or a solution though...

Practice? 

Seriously though, keep talking this through.   

[Libra]

I don't know how 'should' fits into this honestly.  In a perfect world maybe?

Always strive for a perfect world, just don't expect it in return. Or is that too idealistic?  Or too pessimistic? 

(right?)

Right. My freeze/block reaction has made me wonder, but I have no recollection whatsoever of any overt sexual abuse.

You are right though, it might be another issue relating to my childhood, hence this thread. But what then? How can I link it to something in my past? If you look hard enough you can convince yourself of links that aren't really there. My mother does that all the time. I don't want to go down that same path.

Are you okay once things get going?

How nicely phrased. 
Yes, I am okay then. I know a preamble (had to look that one up ;) ) would not suffice.  It's like there is a mile high wall around me, and DH has to scramble over it again every time. There's no door he can knock on first. 

I think I have a knee jerk reaction to shove away, and then I can't let go of that state any more. After that I feel guilt and failure, but also great stubbornness (hence the Ice Queen as a teen?): I have no obligation, right? I am a free person with my own will! And so it easily becomes a matter of principal. Way too cerebral and defensive. Once I get that far it no longer matters whether I might actually feel like having sex. I get completely out of touch with what I am feeling. All I want to do is push away, and I feel trapped. 

I can't really explain it any better at the moment. I'm trying to understand, but I'm so out of touch with my feelings in those moments and I can't find the words to explain what is going on. Sorry. 

Practice?

Thank you for walking with me on this Harri,



Libra.

[Harri]

Always strive for a perfect world, just don't expect it in return. Or is that too idealistic?  Or too pessimistic?

Both.   How about "Always strive for a perfect world, but accept that we are all human"?

You are right though, it might be another issue relating to my childhood, hence this thread. But what then? How can I link it to something in my past? If you look hard enough you can convince yourself of links that aren't really there. My mother does that all the time. I don't want to go down that same path.

I agree that we can come up with all sorts of explanations that may not in fact be accurate.  Lots of things other than sexual abuse can result in problems with sex and an unwillingness to be vulnerable.   I think it is easy to look for a history of sexual abuse as it is an obvious answer, a lot of us do it, including me in this thread! 

There was a lot of instability in your home, little to no validation and even worse a lot of invalidating things were said and done.  You closed yourself off as a way to protect yourself right?   How do you change that? 

For example, our sense of femininity and being comfortable with it is said to come from our fathers.  When I was little my dad was not inappropriate with me himself but there was a lot of shame around my relationship with my dad thanks to my mom.  It had an impact on how I view myself, my relationship with men and also sex apart from the sexual abuse I experienced.  He was also distant and afraid of my mom.

It's like there is a mile high wall around me, and DH has to scramble over it again every time. There's no door he can knock on first.

So I am picturing a man (your hubby) putting himself in a trebuchet to get over your wall... sometimes he makes it and sometimes he doesn't.  Not helpful I know. 

[No-One]

Hi Libra:

No-one - I do not agree with the name, BTW ;-)

Thanks, Libra! I like to fly under the radar, LOL (incognito)

When we have had a heated discussion about something, I need time to process on my own. My husband needs to kiss and make up. He needs the physical closeness to re-bond. I guess we just have a very different way of processing things.

I think a lot of normal men (not BPD) like "make-up sex". The heated discussions can make them feel aroused.  I'm like you.  I'm not in the mood after a heated discussion.

When my brother turned 18, my parents bought a book on sex and sexual relationships. My brother spent a couple of days in his room reading it, and then it was handed on to me. That was our sexual education.   

I tend to think that most parents didn't discuss much sex education with their children. I think the older the generation of parents, the less apt they were to educate their children on sex. 

I cannot recall any instance of physical affection between my parents. We also never talked about emotions. I seem to struggle with both those things as an adult.   

  Emotions weren't discussed in our house either.  We weren't the huggie, kissy family, where everyone kept saying "I love you".  Parents tend to duplicate what they were used to growing up.

As a teen, I saw a lot of sex power-play. Women and young girls being conquered and then discarded.

I had the same experiences well past my teens.  It's the difference between men & women.  Men seem to like the thrill of the chase.  For most, once they conquer, they lose interest (unless they are truly ready to settle down).  Sadly, a lot of false statement can be made, just to conquer.  I've gotten past all that.  I was a slow learner, but I've put it all in perspective.  I guess the thing for you to explore is why you still have strong feelings about it.  Maybe you need to do some journaling about your feelings.  Is there someone you had a relationship with in the past that you might need to forgive? 

A sex therapist?  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) I've only just found the courage to talk about it here. I really couldn't talk about this to a person face-to-face. I guess it's till a huge taboo for me...   

How about starting with reading a book or two?  We are all a bit of puzzle.  I think we all have a bit of a personal journey to find out what makes us tick and what we like.

This book might be a place to start to explore your sexuality: "Come as you Are"

There are a lot of books out there.  You can do some Googling.  Here are a couple of book lists you might want to check out:
www.nymag.com/strategist/article/best-relationship-books.html

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sex-therapist-summer-reading-list-guides-0529135

https://centerforhealthysex.com/sex-therapy-resources/other-resources/reading-list/sex-therapy-books/

Start out with some books that are geared towards you.  Then, perhaps you could eventually read a book or two geared towards partners. At some point, you might be ready to bring your husband into some discussions that some books might prompt.

So, your homework is to find a book you like that is geared to your personal sexuality.  Let us know what you choose.

[Only Human]

Hi Libra!

I come from the Son/Daughter board but your post caught my attention as I could have written it myself.

I cannot recall any instance of physical affection between my parents. We also never talked about emotions. I seem to struggle with both those things as an adult.
 

Same here. The messages I received as a child about sex, I believe, have contributed greatly to my attitude toward it. "Sex was for making babies," "All men want is to get into your pants," and the list goes on.

I know you said you didn't experience any sexual abuse personally but what you wrote about the pervert on the bus sounds like sexual abuse to me and helped me remember a time when I was 16 and the roommate of the family I was babysitting for felt me up while I was sleeping. I pretended to continue sleeping and pretended to cry and he stopped. I felt a lot of shame about that, that I couldn't push him away, that I felt I had no right to protect myself.

Thanks for being brave enough to post about this.

~ OH

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Libra!
Thank you for opening this discussion. I'm not sure I can give you any advice, but maybe sharing my experience can help in some way. I have had two long term relationships in my life. The first was to a non (10 years) and then my ex-dBPDh (9 years). In both there were issues with intimacy and sex. Growing up, we never talked about anything intimate in my family, not even feelings, and my parents never showed any affection for one another.

In the first relationship (with the non), we started pretty hot and heavy, but after we got married it was like a switch in my head flipped and I struggled with what "good girls" do and don't do, traditionally. I don't have a religious background, but this really hit me hard and I struggled with myself to overcome it. All kinds of situations where sex would naturally be expected, such as Valentine's Day or after a romantic evening, I just froze. It helped me when I was the one to initiate, and I would do it more often than I felt like as I knew that once we got going I would usually enjoy it, or by doing it that would awake the arousal more. Then we struggled with infertility and that really killed the mood for me. I wished we had talked to someone professional about it. Not necessarily a sex therapist, but just a marriage counsellor who could help us communicate about it.

With my ex-dBPDh, the sexual spark has always been there, make up sex was a big part of it. The problem for me was that it quite early on we lost the intimate connection. He didn't look me in the eyes or connect emotionally, which in the end I found difficult. I would still have a really strong attraction to him, though, and still do.

So in a way I've experienced both sides of the coin. For both it has helped to look inside and try to find out where my issues stem from, like you're doing here. With my first husband, it felt overwhelming to go see someone because neither of us had ever seen a therapist and it just wasn't done in that culture/society. With my ex-dBPDh I've lived in another country and have done a lot of individual therapy, so I would have liked to see someone together with him, but in truth our lack of intimate connection were due to BPD, my ex wasn't able to forge a true intimate connection and would use sex as a way to re-connect after a fight (which was all about passion and very little intimacy) or to calm down when he felt too tense (again passionate, but not intimate).

Do you think it's an intimacy issue (emotional closeness) or a passion issue (physical desire)? Or both?

For now, is reading books or websites a help for you?
There's the OMGYes website, it's a sex education website for women and has good reviews. Maybe that could be a way to get to know yourself better?
I don't think there's a quick fix, but by being open and finding material and ways to explore can help. I'm going to ask an awkward question, but since we're in this discussion: Do you like "solo pleasure", if you know what I mean? Feel free to not answer if it's too intimate.

[Enabler]

Hey Libra,

A couple of questions that sprung to mind...

How do you feel about being naked in front of your husband, not in a sexual way, just in a general prancing around way?

When he initiates sexual intimacy is your gut reaction one of 'stop taking advantage of me', and if so do you feel like you're letting yourself down as a woman being submissive to a man?

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

I've had some of these same questions that you're asking yourself too. As a younger person, I was very sexual when I'd begin a relationship, then I'd get bored over time and it seemed more like work than fun. With a new relationship, the excitement returned for a while, but then the pattern repeated.

As I've gotten older and my hormone levels have dipped, sex just doesn't have the same interest level as it once did. Oddly enough, my husband is the one who has put the brakes on our relationship. I think he's felt too vulnerable after he fully exposed his BPD side.

But I understand what you're talking about. In my previous marriage, sex was always a fraught topic. I wasn't sexual enough for my husband and just being accused of that regularly made him even less desirable than he was.

I think part of the issue is that it becomes cerebral rather than physical when we get blamed for not being "enough". I think it's normal that people have different levels of sexual needs and sometimes we marry a person who is quite different from us.

I know that I could pretend to be interested, start doing it, and then the actual interest would occur, but it made me feel like I was a prostitute because by that point in my marriage, I disliked my first husband intensely, for many reasons.

I'm glad that you're happy with your relationship other than with this issue. I agree that perhaps seeing someone for sex therapy could help. Don't worry. They've heard everything imaginable. They won't judge you.