Part 2: That didn't take long...

[stolencrumbs]

This thread was split from part 1 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337211.0

I would say tell her.  Not a discussion or a debate.    Deliver a message you feel comfortable with.    Mostly for your sake more  than for a real hope of your message sinking in.

Keep it very short and to the point.  Run it by the folks here.  Expect invalidation.    Expect a flurry of hostility.

I would aim for delivering your message and not backing down in the face of hostility.    Obviously don't stand there and go toe to toe for hours.  5 minutes.   No more than 10.  

Understand the details that are important to you won't be to her.  

If your message is I have lot to think over,   I am going to focus on myself and I hope you continue to work on yourself.  I will be out of touch periodically.    Her first question is likely to be how can I get in touch with you?    Followed quickly by when are you going to be back?   Or what are you doing?

What do you think?

I like the idea of that. I'm not sure what details are important to me. I guess at this point what I want is some space and some time to think and process things. I think she will press me for details. She'll want to know what I need to process. I don't want to go down that hole. The whole point is that I need to process things. If I could just talk with her about them and identify them and articulate things, I wouldn't need the time and space. But that seems like an overly simple message, and also one I have already delivered.

And for some context that may or may not be helpful, these are the last couple of emails she sent, following the argument or whatever it was that happened yesterday.

_________________________________________________________
Right now being on the same team, having my my back and trying to be positive, supportive, warm, loving, kind etc. seems pretty important.  not dwelling on the anger but instead tapping into and nurturing good instead of bad, love instead of hate.  it really hurts. all the things that have been ignored and erased for so many years in my heart. that i am trying to make peace with.

you are my husband and you are supposed to be my friend, my rock, my lover, my partner in this life. if ever i ought to be able to lean on you and for us to find some good in US, it would be NOW.

oh well.

i'm not stewing in any anger or resentment. i made several comments during the week about positive things i'd realized while there. appreciation for you and our life. other things like that. i was -in the midst of the most horrible experience of my life- trying to find some positive and i shared that with you.  

i am trying very hard.
it really hurts how you have turned your back on me.

oh well.

i am sorry you are so angry. i guess i can just continue to be angry too. instead of us being kind and good and loving. trying to remember US and make a better life together. we can just be angry.
______________________________________________________________
it is fine. you feel what you feel and your feelings are valid. i feel what i feel and my feelings are valid. it is fine. you are entitled to feel wahtever you feel. whatever you feel.

i did not want to come home to an empty house and a disintegrating marriage. i did not want to come home to this silence. and loneliness. i thought we were going to try to make things better. to make things right. i'm sorry i misunderstood.

[boatingwoman]

Oh, she’s good. Her email is full of land mines.

I need to think on this a while.

[formflier]

I would be tempted to write back that we should follow therapists direction on discussing our emotions. 

That you will be a support to help her become healthy.

Best,

FF

[boatingwoman]

Right now being on the same team, having my my back and trying to be positive, supportive, warm, loving, kind etc. seems pretty important.

(It’s always all about me. You aren’t all about me now.  I’m mad)


not dwelling on the anger but instead tapping into and nurturing good instead of bad, love instead of hate.  

(I’m mad.  You need to see my good and ignore my bad.  You need to show me what I determine love is and If you don’t, there will be hell to pay)


it really hurts. all the things that have been ignored and erased for so many years in my heart. that i am trying to make peace with.

(I’m hurting. Instead of thinking about and coming to terms with the abuse and neglect that destroyed me as a person, it’s easier/more entertaining to create my continual chaos about you so that I don’t have to think about, relive or deal with the horror that happened to me as a child.  I need to suck 100% of you up for my fuel. Instead of letting the abuse destroy me, I will allow it to destroy you instead. Someone has to pay, and I have decided you will have to pay. I don’t want to deal with my past.)

you are my husband and you are supposed to be my friend, my rock, my lover, my partner in this life. if ever i ought to be able to lean on you and for us to find some good in US, it would be NOW.

(See above. Same explanation. She is afraid you see her real self now; Something has to be your fault so she doesn’t have to think about that either).

oh well.

(I am so disappointed in you. Be warned)

i'm not stewing in any anger or resentment.
(Yes, I absolutely am. I lied, otherwise why even mention it)

i made several comments during the week about positive things i'd realized while there. appreciation for you and our life.

(You are my manservant and I’d like to give you a check mark in the positive column. This is a quarterly review, and you have passed.  Good job.)



other things like that. i was -in the midst of the most horrible experience of my life- trying to find some positive and i shared that with you.  

(It’s your fault. Everything is your fault. Going in to the hospital is the worst thing that every happened to me except that thing I can’t think about or deal with that makes me want to kill myself and set everything I have on fire. I don’t deserve nice things because I am a horrible person. You need to fix my life and make me better because I refuse to. I’d rather be crazy than to revisit what happened to me. I’m broken, so for the rest of my life, you will serve me and build me up. I have absolutely zero requirement to be nice to you or to be a partner to you.)

i am trying very hard.

(You are not doing what I want you to do. You are not trying hard)

it really hurts how you have turned your back on me.
(Me, me me me me me me me me. I have needs)

oh well.
(You will pay)

i am sorry you are so angry.
(I don’t care about your feelings)


i guess i can just continue to be angry too.
(Be warned. Dont mess with me)

instead of us being kind and good and loving.
(I have an excuse now to be mean)

trying to remember US and make a better life together.
(I have zero responsibility in making this happen)

we can just be angry.
(I like anger.  It’s my preferred mental state. Thank you.)

[Notwendy]

Boatingwoman said it well.

The short version : Victim.

Everything you’ve posted about how your wife sees this is from victim perspective ( on the Karpman triangle ). Victim is not responsible for her actions.

You are supposed to be rescuer. Rescuer aligns with her- this means supporting the illusion that she’s fine, this hospitalization was not necessary. She’s not responsible. You are supposed to forget anything bad that happened and assume things are good.

If you don’t go along with this - there’s only one role left and that’s persecutor.

You can’t take any form of victim perspective. There can’t be two victims.

How to avoid either role? Don’t act on the triangle. Keep your sense of reality regardless of how she sees this. You are not a mental health provider. You can not provide the help she needs . She set things on fire and cut herself. That’s serious. You called for help - not to be mean but because it was what she needed. That’s reality.

[babyducks]

oohhhh stolencrumbs,   you've been getting messages and listening to this kind of stuff for how long?    some of this is truly terrible.     it's a mess.    

Right now being on the same team, having my my back and trying to be positive, supportive, warm, loving, kind etc. seems pretty important.

what's missing in this statement?   a couple of things.    any suggestion of her being a separate entity.     any sense of her own identity or actions as being uniquely her own and not tied to you in some way.    any sense of responsibility for her own actions.    any thoughts about what she needs to do,   how she needs to work to heal.    what her actions are going to be or should be.     once again she is merging into an amoeba like oneness with you and then blaming you for not doing that 'correctly'.

what's valid in this statement and what's invalid?   I would say very little is valid.    if the opening line in her email was,   I know I have some work to do make our relationship, positive, supportive, warm, loving and kind this would be a whole different type of conversation.  

I would suggest you not accept the premise of this opening remark.    I would suggest you turn this right around and 'give' the responsibility for her healing right back to her.    

not dwelling on the anger but instead tapping into and nurturing good instead of bad, love instead of hate.  it really hurts. all the things that have been ignored and erased for so many years in my heart. that i am trying to make peace with.

really?   oh my.   well.       okay.   whose anger are we talking about here?   I read this as hers.   her perennial anger.     all the things that have been ignored and erased.    again I read this as her absolutely fragmentated self identity.    once along time ago a member here wrote a great post about remora fish.    really.   remora fish.    and how pwBPD are the remora fish of the human world.   they have to attach to other larger fish because they believe they can't swim on their own.   remora fish actually can swim, but spend their lives suction cupped to a shark or a ray because a shark can swim faster and that makes the remora fish feel better.   it's an interesting metaphor.

you are my husband and you are supposed to be my friend, my rock, my lover, my partner in this life. if ever i ought to be able to lean on you and for us to find some good in US, it would be NOW.

oh well.

a reminder of the obligation of a husband.    and part of the fog of manipulation.    she's reminding you of the obligation,  setting an impossibly high bar, expressing contempt and then dismissing you.     again what's valid or invalid in this?   simple question,  did you visit in the hospital?   did you drive to the hospital to bring her home?   did you discount your own feeling to spend the first two nights with her?   would you still be there if she hadn't began crying and asking you to leave?

 

i'm not stewing in any anger or resentment. i made several comments during the week about positive things i'd realized while there. appreciation for you and our life. other things like that. i was -in the midst of the most horrible experience of my life- trying to find some positive and i shared that with you.  

I'm writhing in shame but I am going to point out how much better a person I am than you are.   in the midst of my horrible experience I shared positive things with you.    like the drowning person who pulls the life guard under the water... she can build herself up by pulling you down.   she's saying see how I am the better person?    and oh btw... she absolutely is stewing with anger and resentment... that's why she mentioned it.

i am trying very hard.
it really hurts how you have turned your back on me.

oh well.

you turned your back.   you were hungry and asked if she wanted something to eat.   she said no but you were going to go get something to eat anyhow  you abandoned her.   you were going to put your needs ahead of hers.    

i am sorry you are so angry. i guess i can just continue to be angry too. instead of us being kind and good and loving. trying to remember US and make a better life together. we can just be angry.[/i]

stolen crumbs you are probably one of the least angry people I can imagine.   this is pure projection.   with a heavy dose of blame and guilt.    again with the us and the we, not two separate people with distinct personalities but only what we can be TOGETHER.    the remora fish and the shark.
______________________________________________________________

it is fine. you feel what you feel and your feelings are valid. i feel what i feel and my feelings are valid. it is fine. you are entitled to feel wahtever you feel. whatever you feel.

this one I am not sure about.   I can't tell if she is giving you permission to have your own feelings.   or acknowledging you have them.   at least in this one she does seem to recognize that you are two different people.    if I was going to answer any of these this would be the one.    

i did not want to come home to an empty house and a disintegrating marriage. i did not want to come home to this silence. and loneliness. i thought we were going to try to make things better. to make things right. i'm sorry i misunderstood.

again this seems a little bit (very small amount) better to me... and I could craft a response to this.   at least she is using I statements... and she leaves the door open with the we were going to try and make things better.    she does fall right into victim mode again at the tail end though.

did you answer any of this?  

'ducks

[GaGrl]

O hear the final statement more as " I did not think I would have to come home and have to do any further work on myself. "

Think of the five stages of grieving -- Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.

Where are you in moving toward an acceptance of your marriage. I hear clearly "Anger."

But are you really past that and at Depression moving into Acceptance? It's OK to feel anger within a larger stage of Depression, especially when it's been suppressed for so long.

[I Am Redeemed]

it is fine. you feel what you feel and your feelings are valid. i feel what i feel and my feelings are valid. it is fine. you are entitled to feel whatever you feel. whatever you feel.

I sense fear in this. Fear that you don't feel what she wants you to feel. I read this as she is more or less saying things she doesn't really believe (your feelings are valid even if they are separate from hers) and trying to sound convincing (to you and to herself, maybe) because her actions don't line up with this. She says "whatever you feel" the second time because she is worried that your feelings would hurt her if she knew what they are; I also think this is "fishing" to get you to reassure her. 

Coming from a person for whom feelings equal facts, this takes on a deeper meaning than what it seems to be at face value. IMO, anyway.

[AskingWhy]

You could tell her that it’s your house and you will be staying in the basement.  If she acts up, breaks things, sets a fire or whatnot, call 911 and send her back to the hospital. Sooner or later she will learn bad behavior equals hospital, and if she doesn’t like it enough and she is in control of herself enough, that will all stop.

I have to agree with boatingwoman.

Boundaries are what are needed with your W.  pwBPD are very much like small children and will try to push boundaries.

I get the impression you are also being gaslighted, SC, and this is another tactic of pwBPD.

[babyducks]

Old timers here say "validate the valid"  and "invalidate the invalid".    Or sometimes talk about finding the validation target.    although it's been a while since I have seen that.     what's that mean?     you want to aim your validation.  not scatter it about indiscriminately.

 I view the first longer message as 97% invalid.  and I am wondering if you are too?

you've spent about 5 days in your own home in the last year while patching numerous holes in the dry wall.   you are supposed to magically return to team work and supportive positive warm loving actions with no feelings of anger or discomfort.     that's not reasonable.    that's not reality.   that's not valid.

she's made several positive comments this week about things she realized and that evens the score.  that makes it all right.    that makes it better.  she said positive things about you.    there.    this statement is still all about her.   see what she did.    she's explaining (again) how her behavior should impact yours.   I am doing what I am doing because I expect you to do something.    would you call that manipulation?   is that valid?

she's trying very hard?    is she?   cooperating with the doctors by honestly recounting what her life is like?   telling them what medication she is on or how much she drinks?  trying the medication?   communicating freely and openly with you about appointment times and medical treatment?    and have you really turned you back on her?  have you walked away and refused to take phone calls, emails or text message?       what part of that is real?   what part of that is reality?   what part is invalid?

I see a bunch of invalid statements in the first message and I would get out my big bad invalidation boots and stomp all over them.   I wouldn't be gentle about it either.   maybe that's just me being a jerk but my reply would read something like this:

There is a lot of work to be done (work - generic, neither her work or your work or both of you but just work.  no details)   before things will be positive, supportive, warm, loving, and kind.   (let's reflect reality the way it actually is)   I can support you going to the intensive outpatient clinic for the next 8 weeks by (boundaries: firm specific detailed and with limits) by taking the dogs on Tuesday and Thursday after work and cooking dinner on Wednesday.  Until I have a better idea of what the intensive outpatient treatment consists of I won't have unproductive conversations that go no where.    (i.e. stop dumping your crap all over me, take it to the doctors)

obviously those are my words and are just meant to illustrate a point.   I find myself in agreement with those upstream who are suggesting you push back, carefully and with thought, against these blanket invalid comments.   

if you validate the invalid,  you make it worse.    if your wife becomes upset and starts to scream and cry, blaming you and making everything your fault, and she tells you to leave, or you leave hoping she will calm down you validate the invalid.   your wife says 'SC it's all your fault,  you've upset me again'  and you leave... it validates that yes it's all your fault, you are somehow to blame and if you leave (remove the problem) she will calm down.   I'm not saying to stay in the face of a dangerous howling dysregulation.    When you leave invalidate the invalid.    convey the message that you leave because of your reasons,  not hers.

'ducks

[babyducks]

it is fine. you feel what you feel and your feelings are valid. i feel what i feel and my feelings are valid. it is fine. you are entitled to feel wahtever you feel. whatever you feel.

i did not want to come home to an empty house and a disintegrating marriage. i did not want to come home to this silence. and loneliness. i thought we were going to try to make things better. to make things right. i'm sorry i misunderstood.

so in this second message I do find a little more to work with.    I do see a little more that's valid.   she recognizes that you and her feelings are different.   that's valid.   she recognizes she is coming home to an empty house and a disintegrating marriage.   that's reality.   there was a brief hope that things could be made better.   also a reflection of what's honestly on the table.

my reply would look like this:

I'm glad you recognize that my feelings are different from yours and just as valid.   Just as it is up to me to work through my feelings using healthy approaches I hope you continue to work through your feelings with the intensive outpatient clinic.    I don't think any of this is fine.    I think this will be a long process as we sort things out.    I will help you by supporting where and when I can.   Still each of us is responsible for our own progress.

hope some of this helps.

'ducks

[formflier]

I'm glad you recognize that my feelings are different from yours and just as valid.   Just as it is up to me to work through my feelings using healthy approaches I hope you continue to work through your feelings with the intensive outpatient clinic.    I don't think any of this is fine.    I think this will be a long process as we sort things out.    I will help you by supporting where and when I can.   Still each of us is responsible for our own progress.

 

This is wonderful reply.  I'd like to suggest just a tad more at the end

"for our own progress in with issues between us"

What I like about this message with this part added at the end is that there is strong "individuality"...boundaries.  What I hoped to add is a suggestion at the end that there is still an "us" and to point without blaming that those things are keeping you apart.

Said another way...there is a hopeful message there.

Now...this may be "too much" and I certainly wouldn't want your wife to latch onto that part to the exclusion of all the rest.  Basically..if possible...give some hope at the end.

I'm also curious if you have responded.

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the insight and advice. I have not responded to any of these emails yet. Last night was not good. We had emailed about doing some work at the house, and for a variety of reasons, that didn't happen. At about 7:00, she started texting me telling me I was cruel, why did I even come see her in the hospital, I'm her husband, stop ignoring her, don't erase her, why am I doing this to her, etc. Then she started calling. I did not pick up. Then back to texting. Then she said she was going to drive to my office. This was at about 10:30. I wasn't there, and I have no idea if she actually drove down there or not. That was the last I heard from her. Probably 50-60 texts and 15 phone calls. I think I responded three different times over the 3+ hours saying I did not want to talk tonight and that we could talk tomorrow. She just kept saying "no" to that, then back to the list above.

Will think about how to respond. I like the idea of pushing back on some of it a bit. Or stating what I see as the reality of things. That's not something I normally do. I also want to emphasize support for her getting treatment and getting healthy. I do support that 100%.

At this point I'll also have to navigate the fact that I am not doing work at the house today. That is always a trigger for her. Agree with 'ducks that the message needs to be short, clear, and concise. It's not going to be received well.

[stolencrumbs]

oohhhh stolencrumbs,   you've been getting messages and listening to this kind of stuff for how long?    some of this is truly terrible.     it's a mess.

 

Um, years and years. I really appreciate the perspective on these emails from everyone. They are, by comparison, pretty tame. It is helpful to see how others perceive them. They definitely feel manipulative, and she is more or less always in the victim role. I don't think I've really picked up on the enmeshment before. That's helpful to see.

I'm very tired of navigating it all. I say the line from War Games to myself a lot--"the only winning move is not to play." I'm trying very hard to not play the game anymore. It's definitely uncomfortable, but I feel like I've made a lot of progress and have some momentum and I'm trying hard to not lose that.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear SC-

I’m so sorry, really sorry.   Our people here have given such good advice and insight , you’ve got that right.

You’ve worked so hard all these years to meet the bottomless “needs” of this woman, when she wouldn’t take a step to help herself.  And it appears she wants this pattern of your lives to continue.  Only now, your eyes are a LOT more open to some of the true manipulation.  Good.

She didn’t do what she did... cut herself and set a fire because you have “marital” issues, because you’re a “bad” husband.  Please keep that in mind.  You can respond to her contacts when you feel like it, in The way you feel.  But you don’t need to respond word for word to what she says.  In fact, probably better to just state where YOU are right now.  That way you’re not moved to validate the INvalid. 

I hope and pray you will take the space and safety you deserve to heal a bit and strengthen yourself.  To find out which path you do want to take for your future.  Perhaps talk with your T and friends and us here more in-depth about the feelings YOU are now just recognizing in yourself. 

Part of your personal safety, at least in my mind includes NOT sleeping in the basement where the person upstairs likes to play with fire and there may be no safe exit for the basement dweller.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[babyducks]

I'm very tired of navigating it all. I say the line from War Games to myself a lot--"the only winning move is not to play." I'm trying very hard to not play the game anymore. It's definitely uncomfortable, but I feel like I've made a lot of progress and have some momentum and I'm trying hard to not lose that.

you have made a lot of progress and gained momentum.     I am glad to hear that you don't want to lose that.

much of this is about learning from new and uncomfortable angles.    it means embracing a new mind set.    and changing thinking can be very uncomfortable.    it can also be exhausting.    I found it took me a lot longer than I could even imagine to rework some of my old patterns into new ones that served me better.

hang in there.   

[GaGrl]

You have made significant progress -- that is evident. And I'm sure you are tired -- physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

When are her parents coming? You need some respite care.

[stolencrumbs]

So I had a conversation with my wife on Saturday. It went way longer than the 5-10 minutes it should have, but it never really went off the rails and I mainly kept saying the same thing, which is that I do not want to move back home at this point, that I need some time and space to think, reflect, and process things, and that I hoped each of us would focus on taking care of ourselves right now. She did some catastrophizing, cried a lot, and since then has sent me a number of emails telling me how wonderful our life can be, promising me it will be wonderful, sending me old pictures of us, telling me how much she loves me, and telling me how sorry she is (though there are no specifics here). She did at one point say something to the effect of "who we are is SC (my name) and SCw (her name). That seems to point to the enmeshment that I hadn't really picked up on before--that we are fundamentally defined as a unit instead of two separate people. Anyway.

This is all new, and not something she has said to me in a very, very, very long time, if ever. So I'm skeptical. It still feels manipulative, just in a different way, and it's still not at all respecting what I said I needed right now. So far I'm sticking with what I said to her. It's much easier for me to do that when she is just screaming at me. I'm definitely feeling like a jerk at the moment, and a few months ago, I would've jumped head first back into this.

But I feel like something broke the night I called 911. Like I had been hanging on by a thread for a long time, and then that thread just broke. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. I do know that the image of my wife that I can't get out of my head is the image of that night, with blood on her arms and smeared all over her face, burnt spots on the rug, razors laying around, broken dishes all over the floor, holes in the dry wall, dogs barking, and her just staring at me with dead eyes. I feel like that should have activated some compassion in me, but it just didn't, and it doesn't. I just get hit with an overwhelming sense of WTF? What are you doing? What am I doing? What are we doing? What is this life we're living? Just WTF?

I don't know if or when her parents might come. I think the plan was to come this week, but I have not heard. I moved up my appointment with my T and am seeing her tomorrow. Hopefully that's helpful.

[I Am Redeemed]

It sounds like the shift has come because she feels like she is losing power over you. When you stayed out of the house because she wanted you to, she still had the power to pull you back and forth as she pleased, counting on your feelings for her to allow her to do this.

Now, you have changed. You actually want space from her, because of the relentless amount of maintenance she requires, and that is triggering the abandonment. Hence the "I love you, I'm sorry (generic blanket apology), who we are is SC and SCw (together, no identity without that), here's some pictures of us to evoke sentimental feelings in you and make you feel guilty for distancing yourself from me/us."

It's no wonder something broke in you, SC. It's not like the incident the night you called 911 was out of the blue. It was building up for a while, and yes, I imagine you have reached the point where you are running out of empathy and compassion. It is much easier to have empathy and compassion when someone is struggling but trying. It's much harder when that person is abdicating all responsibility, blaming, manipulating, and ignoring the impact on you. Patience can run out when it is constantly tested.

I am glad you will be seeing your T. I hope you realize, also, that if your wife truly means the things she says (we can have a wonderful life, I'm sorry, etc. ) that she will take the necessary steps to focus on her mental health and treatment, and respect your need to do the same.

[Gemsforeyes]

I don’t know , SC... it seems to me that now, after all this time, all of her painful actions the toll has really hit you.  And hard.

Every broken dish, hole in the walls, broken window was aimed at you... and somehow you managed to go there and robotically “fix” those things.  But the blood, the image of the blood.  She really cut “you”.  It felt so personal this time.  Her punishment went too far.  At least that’s how I feel that perhaps you feel, but maybe you cannot yet say.  Not every image CAN be erased, forgiven and forgotten.

Sometimes “I’m sorry” is just too hollow and empty. 

If she has ANY question remaining of WHY you would call 911 that night, then it was manipulative, to again punish you.  For what, I have no clue.  Until she accepts the danger and responsibility of all her actions, there’s nothing there for you.

It’s not a “we” or “us” problem.  Please take care of you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[sweetheart]

The ‘WTF’ moment sounds to me like you finally saw just how seriously unwell your wife actually is. That’s a positive SC.

I remember your posts talking about not wanting to involve outside help, saying that you would not find this a helpful option.

Often, certainly in my experience, acute mental illness forces our hand, and we can no longer collude with the dysfunction, it just becomes too out there crazy.

Another way of thinking of your WTF moment, is as an ‘aha experience’, where there has been a distinct emotional shift inside you, allowing the FOG to clear.

[Cat Familiar]

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