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Author Topic: It is how I feel that is the biggest challenge right now  (Read 549 times)
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« on: June 19, 2019, 09:20:48 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337242.0

So I talked with my T yesterday. It was helpful. I had the same experience with her I've had with a lot of people over the past few weeks. When I talk about how I feel about what happened and how it affected me and how I now see things, it's like I can sense people saying in their head "oh, you finally get it. It took you long enough, but you finally get it."

I guess at this point I am thinking seriously about getting a divorce. I'm going to talk to a lawyer and try to get my head around what that would look like. This was my T's suggestion, but I think it is where I am right now. She also thinks I should maintain strict boundaries right now, with pretty limited contact with my wife. We also agreed that I should not make any permanent decisions right now, but wait a bit for the more intense emotions to subside and see if I still feel the same way. So I guess all of that is my plan at the moment.

This is more challenging because my wife is now begging for me to come back home. The emails and phone calls are not out of control, and there aren't that many of them, but it is hard to hear her cry in a way that isn't screaming for hours and hours. She is still saying she's sorry (though not for anything specific), and promising that things will change. She still seems to be interested in changing because she wants to save the relationship, and not because she wants to get better, and that concerns me.

But really, it is how I feel that is the biggest challenge right now. She keeps saying to give us another chance, and I just think of how many chances I've given us for a very long time. And if there were any foundation of love and respect and kindness and mutual support left, maybe I'd be on board with giving us another chance. But all of that has been pretty thoroughly destroyed. And I'm really tired. And I'm really ready to live a different life, or to just live my own life.

Anyway, that's were I am right now. I'm going to continue to process things and think and reflect and try to be honest with myself about how I feel. And in the meantime I'm going to try to better understand what it would look like to end the marriage.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:51:29 AM by Cat Familiar » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 09:51:16 AM »


StolenCrumbs

I'm still getting to know you and your story. 

I realize your wife is not a fan of Therapists and such, yet isn't that the way to understand if she is serious. 

If she wants you to come home.  "That sounds important to you, let's discuss that at Xyz appointment"

Do you get that she is in a big "pull" phase because she see's you drifting away?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 09:53:42 AM »

"oh, you finally get it. It took you long enough, but you finally get it."

Many of us have been in your shoes. In retrospect, I don't feel like I ever had time to have an overview of my first marriage. There were few times when it was smooth sailing, and every time I was somewhat able to catch my breath, my former husband would create a new crisis.

I guess at this point I am thinking seriously about getting a divorce. I'm going to talk to a lawyer and try to get my head around what that would look like. This was my T's suggestion, but I think it is where I am right now. She also thinks I should maintain strict boundaries right now, with pretty limited contact with my wife. We also agreed that I should not make any permanent decisions right now, but wait a bit for the more intense emotions to subside and see if I still feel the same way. So I guess all of that is my plan at the moment.

It's good to know what your options are, in great detail. This plan sounds very well thought out.

This is more challenging because my wife is now begging for me to come back home. The emails and phone calls are not out of control, and there aren't that many of them, but it is hard to hear her cry in a way that isn't screaming for hours and hours. She is still saying she's sorry (though not for anything specific), and promising that things will change. She still seems to be interested in changing because she wants to save the relationship, and not because she wants to get better, and that concerns me.

She has had the shot which should keep the intensity of her emotions somewhat subdued for a few more weeks. This is who she is with medication. Do you think she would consent to being medication-compliant in the future?

She keeps saying to give us another chance, and I just think of how many chances I've given us for a very long time. And if there were any foundation of love and respect and kindness and mutual support left, maybe I'd be on board with giving us another chance. But all of that has been pretty thoroughly destroyed. And I'm really tired. And I'm really ready to live a different life, or to just live my own life.

Over time, these relationships can get so skewed that we lose sight of what is "normal". If you were to lay out the facts of your relationship, excluding the emotional component, and present them to an unbiased observer...

For years my wife has prevented me from living in the house I pay for. She texts and calls me repeatedly and demands that I appear at her whim. If I don't, she tells me I'm uncaring and heartless. She destroys objects in the house in addition to glass doors and tile countertops, and puts holes in the wall that I must repair. She demands that I come over and work in the garden and fix things. She hurts herself, has threatened suicide, and has started fires in the house. Though I love my job and the program I've developed, she has demanded that we move elsewhere and that I fix up the house to sell it. Even if I could get a comparable job elsewhere, I'm not sure I would be allowed to live in my office. I feel much better not being around her and being able to pursue my own interests and friendships.  
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 10:00:58 AM »

StolenCrumbs

I'm still getting to know you and your story. 

I realize your wife is not a fan of Therapists and such, yet isn't that the way to understand if she is serious. 

If she wants you to come home.  "That sounds important to you, let's discuss that at Xyz appointment"

Do you get that she is in a big "pull" phase because she see's you drifting away?

Best,

FF

Yes, I get the "pull" that is going on. I guess at this point I'm trying to figure out of it matters whether she is serious. I hope she is for her sake. I'm not sure it matters for our sake.
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 10:10:54 AM »

I think it would be appropriate to tell her that her priority needs to be working on her mental health, because that needs to happen before any decisions can be made on the marriage.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 10:26:41 AM »

I guess at this point I'm trying to figure out of it matters whether she is serious. I hope she is for her sake. I'm not sure it matters for our sake.

If she was serious she will seriously consider what she is required to do to make that happen over the medium/long term rather than just sedate the burning current urge of feeling abandoned. I think serious sounds like "I understand that you need to keep your distance from me, I understand that I have done things which have understandably resulted in you feeling very hurt, afraid and traumatised. I have stuff I need to sort out on my own, only I can sort it out. I don't know if our relationship has any hope, I would appreciate greatly your practical and emotional support through that process, however would utterly understand if you could not offer that after everything that has happened."

She seriously wants you there and seriously wants the relationship back, but likely for selfish reasons with little ability to empathise with your position and past/current experience.

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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 10:54:47 AM »

Excerpt
She still seems to be interested in changing because she wants to save the relationship, and not because she wants to get better, and that concerns me.

I think you're right to be concerned about that. My counselor told me (when my H started therapy) to listen closely to what he said. If he made comments about going to therapy for me or for us, that was a red flag. The only way he can really and truly change and how the therapy can fully work is if he's doing it for himself. Because he WANTS to get better. Not just to hold onto me but to improve his life. I would think the same applies to your wife.
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2019, 11:57:35 AM »

I would absolutely not conflate whether she is serious and whether you are done or not.

These are two separate topics that should not be mixed.

Making one contingent on the other continues the enmeshed dynamic.    Which is not good for either of you.

If you are done,   you're done.   That's okay.    If you are not done,  that's okay too.   Making the decision based on her emotional state doesn't help you with yours.
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2019, 12:49:58 PM »

If you are done,   you're done.   That's okay.    If you are not done,  that's okay too.   Making the decision based on her emotional state doesn't help you with yours.

I'm in total agreement with ducks. People end marriages for far less than what you've experienced. And that's OK.
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2019, 01:17:04 PM »

I'm in total agreement with ducks. People end marriages for far less than what you've experienced. And that's OK.

I definitely agree. I'm trying to not do that. I don't think I've been honest with myself about how I feel or about how everything has affected me or about what I want in this life. I'm trying to focus on those things.
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2019, 02:42:16 PM »

SC, she doesn't have a choice about whether or not to be compliant with the medication at this point.

My h was on an AD for 3 or so years before he left -- and was still on the med when he moved out. During those 3 years, he would minimally try to make things better between us. He couldn't figure out how to do that, even though I had told him both verbally and in writing what I was looking for. A few months after he moved out, he stopped taking the AD because he said he felt better. His impulsivity increased, and he became more isolated.

He wants to move back in...  I reminded him what brought us to this point - he didn't deny it. Then I said we both need to be a lot healthier.

I've been actively working with medical and mental health professionals to address the problems that I have and that our daughter has. I'm focused on my own health and my daughter's at this point. What my h does isn't really a big part of my life anymore. For any counseling to be helpful, the person needs to want it for themselves. My h promised to be better, too.

One of the pieces of advice from the dv advocate world is that those who have a history of abuse need to demonstrate for an extended period of time (more than a year) consistently respectful and non-manipulative behavior.
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 06:00:06 PM »

I don't think I've been honest with myself about how I feel or about how everything has affected me or about what I want in this life. I'm trying to focus on those things.

Hi stolencrumbs,

sometimes it takes awhile for awareness to develop.     

for me, what my experience was,   subconsciously I was noticing things.    things were affecting me.    my feelings were there but I wasn't very adept at paying attention to them,   and I certainly wasn't clear about what they were or what they meant.

there was violence in my relationship.   not as much as yours, but violence.   I made a very deliberate decision to put it behind me.   I made a choice to work my way past it.   I spent some time and energy on it.    as much as it surprised me then (and now still)   I could talk about it and feel comfortable about it but in certain situations,... when my Ex did a particular thing,   I flinched.   didn't mean to.   didn't want to.   but I still flinched.   just a reactive twitch.    my body was keeping score.  my body had a memory of distrust and fear.   

I also knew there were times where I should be vulnerable.  if I was in a committed relationship, there were times I should be honest and vulnerable.   I had a real problem with the vulnerable part.    I didn't like to lower my guard with her especially after a violent episode.    especially as we went to sleep .    those last 10 or 15 minutes before we drifted off,  for me,  it felt like I should be able to relax, be open, be comfortable and emotionally available.   I couldn't do it.    a big part of me couldn't allow that to happen.

that was my experience.   yours might be different.   I think for me I could intellectually understand much of what happened and why.    my brain could walk it's way through mental illness->eratic->dysregulated-> but my spirit, or my feelings, or my psyche or what ever you want to call it,... ran out of bandwidth to cope with out damage.    every time one of those episodes happened my psyche lost a little tiny bit more.    every cold cruel remark left a little tiny ding.   at the end of the day,  I couldn't counter balance the negativity enough to not be hurt by it.   

that really had nothing to do with my Ex or her illness.   it was more that things took a toll on me and I couldn't rebuild.    not without a period of peace and quiet.

 
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2019, 10:05:38 AM »



Your feelings are completely valid.  I would resist labeling them as a challenge, problem or any of that.

I'm hoping you can break things up into "buckets". 

Bucket 1:  Get sorted out what divorce would look like...work through lots of feelings over there.  No rush...ask lots of questions.

Bucket 2:  Be supportive of your wife's recovery AND be vigilant. 

At some point in the future you can evaluate the contents of each bucket and plan for the future.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2019, 10:06:38 AM »


Stolencrumbs

How are things going with you? 

FF
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 10:44:49 AM »

I'm good. I met with a lawyer last week. I've talked to my T a couple of times in the last week. I went home and talked with my parents and my brother. I've talked with friends. I want a divorce.

My wife appears to be doing pretty well. She is still on medication, and she has seen a new therapist. There has only been one "bad" night, and the texts and phone calls only lasted for about an hour, and then she was able to return to baseline.

I have talked to her about what I'm thinking and how I'm feeling. She is not hearing it. She is trying really hard to get me to come back home. She's making lots of promises about how different things will be, and how much she has changed. I don't know how much I believe it, or how much I believe those changes would last, but I also don't think it matters for me or for our relationship. The best version of our life is not a life I want. It was fine, and a year or so ago I would've taken it in a second. But it's taken me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that what I want matters, and that I don't have to just have a life that is tolerable.

I've spent most of our marriage defending her to others, making excuses, and trying to convince myself and everyone who cares about me that I was happy. I wasn't. Obviously the last five years have been awful, but the previous ten weren't great. I do care about her, and that is the only thing that really pulls me back. I don't want to hurt her. But the actual life we live together, even when it's good, is not something that is pulling me back.

I'm also realizing how much the last five years, and probably the whole relationship, has messed with my head. I need to sort myself out. Maybe that could happen in the marriage, but I doubt it. The patterns are well-established, and the grooves are deep. And right now, most every tie that bound me to my wife and our marriage has been severed. I'm sure I could forge ahead and try to make it work, but I don't want to, and I'm not sure why I would do that. I've been "conflicted" for a long time. I didn't really allow myself to think about or contemplate a life without my wife. That somehow didn't seem like an option. Now it is, and thinking about that life makes me excited about the future in a way I haven't been in a long time.

This is the hardest thing I've ever done. I suck at making decisions. And I hate hurting people, and I especially hate the idea of hurting my wife, even more so now that she is trying to pull me back. But I'm pretty sure this is what I want. 
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 10:57:19 AM »

But I'm pretty sure this is what I want. 

Pretty sure..or sure.

There is one way to find out if your wife has changed or will change?   That way takes time and observation.

There is an important question about what you do with yourself while that time is ticking.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 11:01:12 AM »

The best version of our life is not a life I want.


 And I hate hurting people,

I do too, but I learned in 12 step co-dependency groups to include myself in that idea. Why are we so willing to hurt ourselves, allow others to hurt us, just to avoid hurting them?

We are also worthy of sanity and being with people who don't engage in hurtful behavior with us. We don't have to allow people who deal with their own hurts to project them on to others and hurting them.

You are not responsible for "hurting her". Yes, a relationship takes two, but it is a consequence that if  you abuse people, they don't want to be around you. Please take care of yourself.

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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 11:24:54 AM »

Pretty sure..or sure.

There is one way to find out if your wife has changed or will change?   That way takes time and observation.

There is an important question about what you do with yourself while that time is ticking.

Thoughts?

FF

No, I'm sure. And I'm sure that genuine change on her part, which I really hope she makes, wouldn't change my mind.

Notwendy:
Those are definitely questions I need to figure out the answers to. I don't really know how I ended up here or why I let all of this go on as it did for such a long time. I need to figure that out and understand that and make sure I don't do the same thing again.

And yes, there are consequences for treating someone badly. I tried really hard for a long time to make sure there weren't any. That was a bad idea, and it was also pretending on my part. There are consequences.
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 12:33:57 PM »


I'm glad you've thought this through and you are sure. 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2019, 04:17:14 PM »

And yes, there are consequences for treating someone badly. I tried really hard for a long time to make sure there weren't any. That was a bad idea, and it was also pretending on my part. There are consequences.

A few years ago, there was a banner at the top of one of the pages on this website that read "Facing the Facts."  So often those of us who have BPD partners have avoided doing that. for. years.

I was one of those. I kept hoping against all odds that my first husband would "see the light" and start behaving more reasonably and kindly. I finally had to give up when I realized what a toll it had been taking on me. And that was one of the best decisions I ever made.

It was difficult, but finding freedom from that oppression was worth it. We don't have to condemn ourselves to a lifetime of hell, just because we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Sometimes it seems that just by existing, we "hurt their feelings" because they project their despair upon us.
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2019, 07:48:15 PM »

Dear SC-

I am really happy for you.  Please stay out of the FOG - you most certainly deserve a clear path to your future.

Warmly,
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« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2019, 05:34:13 AM »

Yes, SC, it's a good idea to figure this out before you start dating again. I have read there's a chance of repeating the same patterns with someone else if we don't examine why. Best to emotionally recover from a separation before getting involved with someone else. I hear the same advice in the 12 step co-dependency groups I've attended.


 
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2019, 07:48:50 AM »

Hi Stolencrumbs

I'm good. I met with a lawyer last week. I've talked to my T a couple of times in the last week. I went home and talked with my parents and my brother. I've talked with friends. I want a divorce.

It sounds like you are carefully and methodically working your resources and considering your options.       I would recommend adding Bill Eddy to the list.    and some posts on the legal/family board here.     divorce from a high conflict person has it's own special challenges.

But it's taken me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that what I want matters, and that I don't have to just have a life that is tolerable.

this is a huge step from where you were a year ago.    I remember you posting about tolerating the conditions you experienced.    and that was what life was going to be like.     I commend you for doing the really hard work of looking at the reality,   facing the facts (like Cat said)    and fighting your way forward to better decisions and options.

 
I'm also realizing how much the last five years, and probably the whole relationship, has messed with my head. I need to sort myself out.

Yes it has.   Yes you do.  You have experienced a whole lot of abuse.    a bunch of trauma.    a ton of emotional upheaval.    when some one lives in that amount of stress, constant crisis, for that long weird things happen.   they are predictable and reversible but it will take a while to get used to the new normal.   what ever that turns out to be.


This is the hardest thing I've ever done. I suck at making decisions. And I hate hurting people, and I especially hate the idea of hurting my wife, even more so now that she is trying to pull me back. But I'm pretty sure this is what I want. 

I don't think it's necessary to be 100% sure right now.     any decision comes with doubts and uncertainty.    because this is such a big decision I strongly suspect your thinking will waffle back and forth a little.   that's okay.    it's too be expected.  for a while your aim has been to make better and healthier decision,   I think if you keep aiming in that direction you will be fine.

'ducks
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 12:56:38 PM »

So it's been about a month. I still plan to get a divorce. I have hired a lawyer. I have the papers. I have told my wife this. I have not filed yet. I'm not exactly sure why. She asked me to press "pause" and go to a T with her, which I did. We've been a couple of times. I feel the same. The T seems to get that I am not working to make the marriage work. My wife does not get/accept this yet.

My wife continues to be more stable. She has stopped taking one of the medications (the anti-psychotic) she was given while in the hospital. She has continued to take the other (the anti-depressant.) She expresses regret for things she's done, and she has apologized, though they are never very specific. She has asked me to come back and live at home. She asks me that pretty much every day. I have not. I'm not doing that. She still says lots of things that seem like big red flags. There aren't explicit threats, but she says that she doesn't know how she survives every day, and that nothing matters if we aren't together. She has also more or less explicitly said that we are a unit, not two individuals. There is just an "us." She seems to think this is sweet, and the way things should be. I think I used to think that. I now see it as one of the big problems we had.

Most of that is irrelevant, because I'm not basing my decision on reading tea leaves. I hope she continues treatment and therapy. I try to encourage and support her in ways that I can, but that is really hard to do right now. We're just not on the same page, and it's hard to be there or be friends with her when what I want is a divorce and what she wants is for me to come live at home. I haven't really figured out how to navigate that. We do fine with small talk, but eventually the conversation turns to our future, and I feel like I just keep saying the same thing over and over again. And she responds in the same way. She cries, and just says "no, we're not doing that." I guess part of what I've been waiting on to file is for her to, in some way, accept that that is what is happening before she gets served. I'm increasingly feeling like that isn't going to happen, and that I'm not doing her (or me) any favors by waiting.

I'm continually surprised by how much this relationship has affected me. Even now, I am in the FOG a lot. I mean a lot. I feel a tremendous amount of guilt and obligation, and I always worry about what she might do and how she might react. I'm better at not acting on that, and better at recognizing it. But, man, it's amazing how much of my life was and is governed by that, and how I only saw bits and pieces of it.

I think I'm still moving forward, but I also feel like I'm a bit stagnant, and getting used to whatever this new normal is instead of moving forward to the new normal I want. I am moving into my own place, so that's a pretty big thing.

I still hate the idea of hurting her, and it feels exceedingly strange to think about and move forward on things because they are what I want, and are what I think are best for me. It's hard to not hear her voice in my head telling me how awful I'm being. On some level, I know that isn't the case, but that voice can get loud. I have a lot of wonderful people supporting me right now and helping me keep things in perspective. I really appreciate all the advice, support, challenges I've gotten here, too.

Sorry that rambled a bit...
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2019, 03:20:50 PM »

Making such a huge life change is a complex matter, so have patience with yourself. It truly is shocking when one realizes how much adaptation has been required to sustain a highly dysfunctional BPD relationship. Unwinding all the self-compromising behavior takes time and self-forgiveness.

It’s one thing to have compassion for a very emotionally damaged partner, but we also need to have compassion for ourselves, for trying so hard to make an intolerable relationship work.
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2019, 08:10:35 AM »


It’s one thing to have compassion for a very emotionally damaged partner, but we also need to have compassion for ourselves, for trying so hard to make an intolerable relationship work.

There is a lot here to reflect on. 

Do you think filing for divorce would help your wife understand you are moving forward? 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2019, 10:49:51 AM »

There is a lot here to reflect on. 

Do you think filing for divorce would help your wife understand you are moving forward? 

Best,

FF

I honestly don't know. My sense is that she is just not going to accept that that is what's happening. Ultimately, it will happen whether she accepts it or not, but I'd sure prefer her to be on board with what's happening. And maybe she is, but just isn't telling me. I don't know. Our conversations about it have been very strange. I've been clear and direct about what I want for over a month, and the conversation always ends with her saying "we're not going to do that," or "that's not going to happen." She also says she doesn't understand what's happening. She says that a lot. I suspect she will react the same way to being served with divorce papers.

I also worry about what happens if she does accept that we are going to get divorced. I know that's not a reason to not move forward, but I do worry about what happens--to her, the house, the dogs, etc.--when she understands that we are getting a divorce. She has been more stable, but I don't think it'd take much to tip the scales the other way.



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