Replacing the BPD label with Covert Narcissim

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Greetings,

I hope everyone is learning, growing, and getting better.

I don't usually get into discussions about proper diagnosis, or determining whether your partner or family has BPD, bipolar, depression, or a qualified diagnosis or not.  I know when people suffer, and I am learning all that I can on the way to improving myself.  

That said, I find it useful to have global distinctions. If I describe my wife as high functioning uBPD with waif and hermit traits, in varying degrees, I want that to convey a conceptual picture of what I am dealing with.  Some idea of diagnosis is very useful.

I discovered that my wife has several traits of the BPD diagnostic traits, and I can usually find five or more traits that would fit the defining characteristics.  But, there are usually something that doesn't fit.  For example, sex was always absent or bad.  I never got an infatuation stage with great sex used to hook me, or charm be back into the relationship.  Also, my wife doesn't have other addictions or impulsivity.  IT always left a little room for improvement.  The closest I had to an accurate description was from Lawson's Understanding the Borderline Mother book. My wife would fit a BPG hermit / waif (especially earlier in our relationship) and I'd be therefore the huntsman (also fitting).

However, I've heard the description of covert narcissism and it seems to fit better.  Sort of an inward narc, not the traditional personality of a narc that is outwardly abusive, but passive aggressive, internal, able to layer on projection and blame, and so forth.  And, I find I would fit with the partner as the empath with a heavy dose of "nice guy syndrome" especially as of a few years ago. A lot of the key marks of the covert narc and empath relationship seem to fit what I'm experiencing.  

I have found this new perspective useful as I strategize my healing and self care, as well as understanding and navigating around my wife.  I'm  looking for better understanding as always. I'm not suggesting we all replace the label BPD with covert narc, but, it might give another angle to explore.  

I first heard with term while exploring YouTube videos, many by Inner Integration and Vital Mind Psychology.

Any comments or similar experiences with not quite fitting the BPD box?

I think I'd like to see this conversation develop into something in the knowledge base if others have more thoughts on this.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Greetings,

I hope everyone is learning, growing, and getting better.

I don't usually get into discussions about proper diagnosis, or determining whether your partner or family has BPD, bipolar, depression, or a qualified diagnosis or not.  I know when people suffer, and I am learning all that I can on the way to improving myself.  

That said, I find it useful to have global distinctions. If I describe my wife as high functioning uBPD with waif and hermit traits, in varying degrees, I want that to convey a conceptual picture of what I am dealing with.  Some idea of diagnosis is very useful.

I discovered that my wife has several traits of the BPD diagnostic traits, and I can usually find five or more traits that would fit the defining characteristics.  But, there are usually something that doesn't fit.  For example, sex was always absent or bad.  I never got an infatuation stage with great sex used to hook me, or charm be back into the relationship.  Also, my wife doesn't have other addictions or impulsivity.  IT always left a little room for improvement.  The closest I had to an accurate description was from Lawson's Understanding the Borderline Mother book. My wife would fit a BPG hermit / waif (especially earlier in our relationship) and I'd be therefore the huntsman (also fitting).

However, I've heard the description of covert narcissism and it seems to fit better.  Sort of an inward narc, not the traditional personality of a narc that is outwardly abusive, but passive aggressive, internal, able to layer on projection and blame, and so forth.  And, I find I would fit with the partner as the empath with a heavy dose of "nice guy syndrome" especially as of a few years ago. A lot of the key marks of the covert narc and empath relationship seem to fit what I'm experiencing.  

I have found this new perspective useful as I strategize my healing and self care, as well as understanding and navigating around my wife.  I'm  looking for better understanding as always. I'm not suggesting we all replace the label BPD with covert narc, but, it might give another angle to explore.  

I first heard with term while exploring YouTube videos, many by Inner Integration and Vital Mind Psychology.

Any comments or similar experiences with not quite fitting the BPD box?

I think I'd like to see this conversation develop into something in the knowledge base if others have more thoughts on this.

[Cat Familiar]

I think the diagnostic criteria give us a helpful roadmap to make sense of behaviors that are inexplicable for emotionally healthy people. There is a huge variety of pwBPD and much comorbidity with other personality disorders.

My first husband, who I describe as BPD on Steroids, had aspects of NPD and APD. Though it’s been over 15 years since I last saw him, I still get calls from creditors who he’s bilked. Just yesterday I was straightening out a potential identity fraud where I suspected he had his wife attempt to impersonate me. I knew it was him because I got a letter addressed to me about a phone call I never made, but the telling part was a social security number that sounded familiar. When I looked at old tax returns, I discovered it was his.

Thankfully not all pwBPD are criminals. Or stupid criminals.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I agree that at some point we really need diagnostic terms.  Although I don't get stuck in definitions.  Before I read a sentence about Borderline Personality Disorder, I was the emotional equivalent of a shipwreck victim in high seas, at night, drugged, and frozen.  
After that first moment at which I started to read up on BPD, then the dawn came, the seas clamed, I straightened up, caught a breath, and started rescue swimming.  So, I know having some proper terminology is important.  I would like to give people another phrase to look into as they find there way, that being covert narcissism.

[Skip]

I think it helps to look at why we label these things at all... Some reasons are (over simplified):

Clinicians do it to understand outcomes and lock into evidence treatment protocols and an international effort to improve a knowledge base. Family members do it to gain perspective in relationship dynamics and find/refine tools. This is simliar to executives doing Myers-Briggs exercise so that the team can be more productive. Angry exs do it make go/no go decisions on turbulent relationships or cope with failed relationships.

As a general concern, I think too many people are caught up in this Internet frenzy to label people as narcissists. If you had a bad breakup 20 years ago, the person was bipolar. 10 years ago, BPD.  Last 5 years, NPD or Psychopath.  The general population went from "no awareness of personality disorders" to "every annoying person has a personality disorder". It's kinda crazy.

A second general concern,I think there is an growing business of unregulated life coaches and self published "self help" writers who are pushing their own theories to sell product.  So we have an established, peer reviewed clinical body of science, but more people prefer the ideas of an ex-hairstylist, or ex-personal trainer on youtube. We wouldn't let a self proclaimed surgeon ex-hairstylist, or ex-personal trainer remove our tonsils - but we don't need a PhD psychologist operating with peer oversight to attend to our mind.  

I listened to your two references and they were interesting. The technical guy seemed to be talking about "repackaged" basic attachment theory and differentiation (he called empath).

As for whether you wife leans toward being a covert narcissist or a person with BPD traits - both are possible. So are many others things.

    immaturity,
    short term mental illness (e.g., depression),
    substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
    a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),
    an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),
    a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
    a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
    any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

If you think narcissist fits better (convert narcissist), I'd explore it. I might explore these other things. I would do it with the primary focus of seeking tools that might be different/better.

In my experience here, I often separate NPD/BPD based on emotional volatility (BPD-ish) vs ego/pride fragility (NPD-ish).  I estimate (based on surveys) that only 30% of the members here have a partner in the clinical range (diagnosis) - the rest have traits. 47% have some traits of both - in those cases I look for the strongest leaning when picking tools.

So what do you think? Does your wife fit a NPD-ish profile more than a BPD-ish profile?

[SamwizeGamgee]

The whole idea of looking at NPD tendencies, and covert narc at that, is entirely new to my radar screen.  So, I'm just exploring perspectives.  Over all the past four years, I felt the BPD diagnosis category was most accurate.

In the end, I prefer the pragmatic application of the facts and feelings I am going though, regardless of labels.  If it helps, or works, it goes into my toolbox.

I also am carrying around the idea that although the past years were clearly abusive and rage-filled (BPD), the recent year has been much more high-functioning, even in the realm of non-diagnosable behavior.  This leaves me with a residue of thinking it was all my fault to begin with (not true), or she's getting better - which selfishly I don't want because having a mental illness to blame made the question of leaving or staying married more of raw survival.  I have not wanted to face the question of whether to divorce or not absent a diagnosis or active abuse.  My feelings long for a clearly articulated reason to divorce. Labels and definitions, diagnosis and prognosis would have helped that.  Then I have to face the reality and consequences of wanting to divorce a mostly-normally behaving woman - which runs up against my ingrained, but external, beliefs that marriage should not be broken.

[Cat Familiar]

I did marriage counseling with a psychologist for a year and saw only minor improvement in my relationship. Then I found this site a few years ago and things clicked for me. As I started to learn the tools, I began individual counseling with the same psychologist. She told me that my husband has a personality disorder, but she was not comfortable labeling it, either as BPD or NPD, but she had seen some definite signs of NPD. She believes that personality disorders are fluid and can encompass many of the varying disorders.

What occurred to me was that he saved some of the more vulnerable BPDish behavior for me, while in front of her, he could behave more NPDish, because it didn't threaten his masculinity the way it would if he exposed some of his more weird BPD behavior. Also BPD is a disorder that occurs within relationships, so that's why the outside world typically sees a different side of our loved ones.

If you want to divorce, that's enough of a valid reason without needing a diagnosis to justify it. We need to honor ourselves and if life with our partner is intolerable and we don't want to continue with the relationship, that is a perfectly fine reason to end it.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Skip - that’s true. It’s easy to fall in with the PD du jour in popular culture.  Mention your wife hasBPD symptoms, and get ready for eye rolls or “mine too!” Superficial responses. I think I’m facing a mix of PDs from my wife,  and kids now too. My wife’s brothers are easily observed as having distinctive NPD traits. Maybe there’s some comorbidity.

@Cat - I think the height of my enlightenment, when I evolve and thoroughly work out myself will be when I can say that I’m getting divorced because I want to.  End of sentence.  End of reasoning.
As flippant as it possibly sounds to anyone, for me it will represent decades of struggle and growth. And an unbelievably debated and considered decision.  And, dismissing all labels and diagnosis, if I feel like explaining a reason, I’ll simply respond “health issues.”

[Notwendy]

I think there are overlapping traits between the PD's and also a spectrum. There are also co-morbid behaviors such as substance abuse, eating disorders and other behaviors that could be destructive to a marriage such as infidelity. But not all people with PD's have these behaviors.

I think the decision to divorce or not is not over a label but the collection of behaviors and how severe they are, along with personal boundaries. For some people, infidelity isn't a deal breaker. For others it is.

I choose the tools because they are helpful to me not due to a label. I also looked at family dynamics and how they influence me to choose a romantic partner and how I interact with them. I have a severely BPD mother who is the poster child for all the criteria, along with some other very serious behaviors that to me would make me think about divorce, but my father did not want to do that. It's a personal choice for everyone.

In my marriage, I have dealt with traits of what can look like covert NPD or some BPD ish behavior but not anywhere near diagnostic or like my mother. For me, the situation is exponentially better and workable, but our interpersonal issues were a challenge to me regardless. The common denominator to both these relationships is me- and my own contribution to dysfunction from the behaviors I learned growing up. These I can change. I can learn the tools. If this helps with both relationships, then it isn't about the labels, or what labels, or any labels someone else has, but what I can do to improve my relationships.

[Old Quaker]

Also BPD is a disorder that occurs within relationships, so that's why the outside world typically sees a different side of our loved ones.

Such a simple but profound statement...  I never thought of it that way.

[Teno]

I have found this new perspective useful as I strategize my healing and self care, as well as understanding and navigating around my wife.  I'm  looking for better understanding as always. I'm not suggesting we all replace the label BPD with covert narc, but, it might give another angle to explore.  

A term that my T used was narcissistic injury as he did not want to label my SO(upwBPD) as such. You can only change how you react. It helped me look outside of the PD labels and into myself and how I get hooked in. In the last while I've stumbled onto self differentiation and the Bowen family systems theory. I do find the labels useful as I can respond accordingly or at least try.

Just hearing your SIL saying my sister is a golden child and are use to getting her own way: Yes I'm not imagining things. My SIL did not label, but it came from a place of understanding. She was just happy to hear someone else talking about the labels without reacting.

I would say labels are just a tool and to help us communicate better.

Great topic, Thanks for posting

[Skip]

Good perspective, Teno.   

[zachira]

The labels and diagnosis have helped me to understand that there are dysfunctional behaviors that are characteristic of certain disorders and made me realize I am not crazy to feel so uncomfortable with the behaviors of my family members with BPD and NPD. I recognize the labeling and diagnosing can be harmful when it is used to pigeon hole a person. Whatever the label and/or diagnosis, everyone is an individual, whether it is covert narcissism or something else, so this needs to be taken into account when trying to deal with anybody.

[formflier]

but we don't need a PhD psychologist operating with peer oversight to attend to our mind.  

Great topic. 

My PhD psychologist would be in the category of Cat's, where they believe in fluidity.  She is also a fan of describing things as an "injury".  That helps me develop empathy and compassion for how a situation came to be.

It also gives me determination to stop "injuring" people (specifically my kids) in the same way.

The labels (my wife is more PPD) give me broad perspective and help me understand what will likely happen if I ignore her "injuries".

Telling my wife she is wrong is a big deal.  I put "bubble wrap" around that part of her and only go there when needed.  If I do have to go there...band aid approach...rip it off and quickly get to healing.

Most things can be handled by moving away from dichotomous thinking (right/wrong).

The PPD label helps me understand that if I invalidate my wife/ignore her injuries, her mind will go into overdrive and start "connecting dots" and "creating theories" to explain uncomfortable things. 

There is a way to deal with theories that don't "feed" them, yet also doesn't invalidate her..tell her she is wrong.

Last thing.  I don't at all want to suggest SamwizeGamgee is at "fault".  Just as strenuously I would argue that he did have a "role to play" and one of the ways he stops playing that role is to divorce.  That could explain a lot of the improvement he has seen. 

Again...very different than "fault".  Many of these "disorders" play out in the context of a relationship, especially the "higher functioning" ones.

Keep up the discussion.  I'm very interested in conclusions you come to SamwizeGamgee. 

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Skip writes: In my experience here, I often separate NPD/BPD based on emotional volatility (BPD-ish) vs ego/pride fragility (NPD-ish).  I estimate (based on surveys) that only 30% of the members here have a partner in the clinical range (diagnosis) - the rest have traits. 47% have some traits of both - in those cases I look for the strongest leaning when picking tools.

So what do you think? Does your wife fit a NPD-ish profile more than a BPD-ish profile?

Last night I was reading/listening... came across this... the orator-writer brought up the term “dependant personality disorder” (dpd).

So that got me to thinking, that coupled with Formflier’s paranoid personality disorder (ppd), and as I looked the two terms up, and “compared” to borderline and narsisisitc (traits), perhaps further explanation of behaviors... and apply the undiagnosed caveat, who am I to dx anybody, just looking for answers... 

This one trait of “dpd” did jump off the iPad screen at me... “Has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others.”

The term codependent verse dependent, in the guise of a personality disorder(s) was also discussed... I found it very interesting and the shoe did fit in my own relationship...to a certain degree anyways.

I am curious of anyone’s else’s knowledge or opinions/experience in regards to “dependent personality disorder” in this forum,

Red5

[Notwendy]

I don't think it is the same as co-dependency. Many people with co-dependency are caretakers, not the ones with an excessive need to be taken care of.

I also think there's a overlap of traits with many of the PD's and that perhaps more than one label can fit a person. I guess the one that fits the best is the one to use. By "use" I don't mean making a diagnosis- or putting a label on someone- we aren't qualified to do that but if the tools to work with a certain PD help- then we can learn those tools. We can also examine our role in the relationships.