Teens That Have Freedom To Choose

[Klera]

  Hi stepmoms out there:  This is the first summer that my stepkids (girl 16, boy 14) do not have a visiting schedule in place between households.   Mom (pwBPD/"queen"/narcissist) has been primary parent household since Aug 2011.  My husband has always had equal custodial rights, opted for every second weekend visits during the school years (for them to "focus on their studies" but the reality was that mom was a bpd mom/exwife-from-hell to deal with when he had them 50-50 for the first 3 or 4 years, btw dad's policy is never talk bad about mom to kids, ever, despite PTSD from all of her past abuse against him). We used to have shared equal holiday time (xmas, summer), 2 weeks on and off for 6 weeks during summer.   Up until  now.

Today SD16 told her dad on the phone that 'the back and forth wasn't working for me'. 
Wow.  After all these years being the 'normal' house, the fun place, the refuge, favourite music blaring in the driveway when  dad and daughter love to wash the car together place, goofy kid, hugs place,  healing-when-sick place, clean, laundry done, favourite meals, clothes, cycling, guitar & lessons, nothing much expected as far as chores (it's only for the weekend), dad coming to the rescue fixing everything when she had troubles at school when her mom was dysregulated/stressed/unable to help her letting her stay home and missing classes, offered, organized & paid for therapist to get her through to end of the school year, driving lessons, the ultimate "daddy's girl" closer to her dad than her mom...really?  wasn't working for you eh?

My gawd, that was such a slap in the face to me.  I heard that from him after and thought to myself: "wow!" I guess when it's time for you to go to University and we were thinking of offering you to live with us, I guess that might not 'work for you' either?

I know she's a teen, I know, I know, she's got some freedom for the first time without a schedule, without obligated visit time over here..but still...wow.  Then I heard about her saying, "but I'll come over if you want me to".   Uh, no kiddo, that's okay, don't do us any favours.   

I'm just angry today.  I'm going to go meditate and just breathe through it.  For all you stepmoms out there who do just about everything there is to do for your stepkids when they visit, support your man being a great dad and get no sort of 'thanks'.  I didn't even get a Christmas card last year.  Yeah, I know.   It sucks sometimes.  And I don't even ask for anything in return, I don't, honestly..I do hope sometimes.  The only thing I insist on is: don't disrespect your dad, call your dad when you can - he misses you, gratitude, honesty, courtesy...those simple things.  They're good kids, they're not blatantly rude but I'm not used to this age where their heads are up their backsides most of the time.   At least my SS says 'thank you' when he's given stuff.   My SD? nope, just takes everything for granted.

Thanks for reading.  I just needed to reach out. 

[ForeverDad]

This is the first summer that my stepkids (girl 16, boy 14) do not have a visiting schedule in place between households... We used to have shared equal holiday time (xmas, summer), 2 weeks on and off for 6 weeks during summer.   Up until now.

Today SD16 told her dad on the phone that 'the back and forth wasn't working for me'. 

Disclaimer, I'm not a step parent. However I do feel for you.  Years ago I was contemplating marrying but that person had reservations about an intrusive ex inserting herself into my marriage via parenting demands.  So a decade after divorce I'm still single.

What does the court order state?  Yes, the teens may very well be of an age to state to the court where they'd like to live but I'm not so sure the court would let the kids decide to unschedule summer visits.

So... how much summer time with dad do the teens say they'll do?  If the order states 6 weeks of on/off, is that 6 weeks total for dad during the summer?  He could agree to meet them halfway and agree to a full six weeks in one lump visit so they don't have to go 'back and forth'.

In most areas the vacations in schedules are one of the parts of parenting schedules not left up for discussion or negotiation - or whims.  Kids aren't in charge, though the court can listen to them as they approach their teens.

In my county recent changes to guideline or example orders state that as kids move into their teens they usually will want one home base.  So if they were doing equal time, then a court may be inclined to agree they get one home as their base.  But that wouldn't mean they could unilaterally skip summer visits.

Does the current order reflect the schedule used in recent years?  If so, will dad seek court intervention to enforce what little time he does get?  If the kids get to sabotage the schedule and it isn't contested then court may not feel impelled later to do much once a "new" unwritten visitation pattern is established.

[Klera]

 :hi:ForeverDad,
I think I recall that you have jumped in and given some really great insight before for me, so thank you.  I empathize about the complexities surrounding relationships within this dynamic.   It is not easy!   Everyone deserves someone in their corner for this rough journey and I wish you the very best.   

I'm in Canada.  The legal 'parental agreement' that exists between the parents (parties) in our situation (each province has separate provincial family law/ legislation)  the visitation arrangements were not established or finalized via a 'court order' but agreed upon by the suggestion of my husband outside of court.    The kids' mom relied on him basically from the start to 'take' the kids as much as he was willing to, in that since she had limited abilities and desire of responsibility, therefore willing to give him as much visitation/time as he agreed to take on.  In other words, they did not fight over visitation via the courts.    When the divorce was being finalized, they both agreed together the terms of parental sharing and visitation.    In the beginning (2008) my husband had the kids during the week and mom had them weekends so she could or was given the chance and time to, "establish her career" as a teacher which, btw,  never happened.  As you might understand pwbpd,  when it comes to employment can be a rollercoaster ride, as with relationships  and what they say and what they do, are two different matters.   She basically lied and did not re-enter the workforce and had no intention to become a teacher which she was trained to be with a University certificate (it turned out to be 'beneath her' as she after the fact stated).   

After a few years of that fiasco stress load, we went into a 50-50 arrangement and, after a few years of that living hell, as a complete last resort to save his sanity from sharing with a she-devil, gave up his time and established that the kids visit him every second weekend with equal split holidays. I hope that answers the legalities?   This was all done via my husband's instigation and not a court ordered arrangement.  Here there was a mediation involving discussions via a lawyer which acted mainly as an intermediary.   Once everything was settled or discussed (her final attempt at talking him OUT of giving up his time (or aka her free daycare, whichever way you look at it) and accepting that she has full day to day responsibility of her kids, then all was done.    It does sound awful when I re read this, btw.   Why hand over the kids to someone completely incompetent, do you ask?   Well... she is intelligent.  Enough to cause us hell, interference, sabotage, set up triangulation type of fighting/power scenarios between parties with teachers etc etc so with that, my husband had to throw in the towel, did a self induced parental "time out" and could no longer parallel parent with this person if he wanted to keep his sanity intact.   It's all about putting the oxygen mask on yourself first.

Having explained all of that, we are now here at this point in time.   Husband and I decided that for this summer, there will not be a schedule in place, that the kids are now old enough to decide for themselves at the ripe ages of 16 and 14.   There has been no input from their mother, no contact, questions, concern,  nothing.   It's as if she recognizes the idea and is not at all fighting him on it.   

Every year he makes 'the schedule', he figures it out between two different schools, holidays, prints it up and sends it off to mom.  No word, no thank you's - nothing from her.  She just accepts it and does not fight any of it. 

I hope that sheds some light on our situation? 

So far, the SD has just established on her own that she'll let us know if she wants to visit us and when.  My SS has yet to decide what he's wanting, he's finishing up the school year.  It sounds as if he wants to come over more than his sister does.   Both kids have a good bond with their dad so I don't worry over that.   But I do worry about SD just suddenly throwing a curve ball.

My biggest shocker today was the announcement from SD that 'this whole back and forth thing (years of it) wasn't working for her'...

So far yet we don't even know what, how much, when the kids want to visit or anything for the summer.  We're in new territory.  They're only a few minutes away, it's not like we have to deal with cross country travel, but still.  In our case, yes the kids are in charge.   Legally at 16, our daughter can book medical appointments, visit therapists, all with confidentiality...so if she wants to go live under a bridge? yep...we can't stop her (legally).  She can quit school, whatever.  Nice thought, isn't it? 

Are they the type of kids to do that? no of course not,  but they are now being given the power (consideration) for themselves to decide when and if they visit their dad for the summer.  Next school year,  will probably be the same until they both graduate. 

We did, one summer do 6 weeks each.  Not fun.  It was a long time for them to be in separate places and they agreed they didn't like it much.  So we switched to 3,  2 week visits. 

Anyhow, I struggle with this teen crap.  All that is done, hoping that they'll vote with their feet as I've been told they do eventually.   But today was a big day.  And all of a sudden I felt completely deflated and hurt, that SD didn't even stop to realize what she was saying.   

   
 

[Nope]

Hi! Similar reverse situation here. I’m a step mom of SD16 and SS15. But the kiddos live almost exclusively with us, as their uBPD mom lives out of state. We have a very detailed court order that covers absolutely everything, except summers. Summer visitation is to be agreed upon by both parents. Meaning basically that their mom can ask for however much time she wants, but DH is free to not agree and only give her what time he deems best for the kids and not disruptive to our family.

So. This summer SD16 told her mom she isn’t visiting her at all. SD has a school sponsored trip out of state and other than that she wants to get a job and hang out with friends. Granted, if her mom wasn’t so far away and her only choices weren’t to go when SS15 is going (for three weeks) or not go at all, then she’d probably choose to go for at least long weekends. But there is no way she’d give up her summer to actively try to spend more time with either of her parents. She just happens to live here, so she’s staying here.

Is she being selfish? You bet! Is that pretty normal for the age? Yup! Does it have anything to do with choosing one parent over the other? Not in the slightest.

My DH said that if the situation was reversed he would plan a couple of fun summer trips and pay to fly the teenagers  to us for that time but wouldn’t push to get the same amount of summer time he got when they were young. He personally remembers how much it irritated  him as a teen to be shuttled back and forth between his divorced parents houses. And his parents were amicable and lived in the same town.

I feel like this kind of stuff hurts partially because the kiddos are growing up and we have to get used to the idea of letting go of kids we’ve helped to raise and fought so hard to have good relationships with despite their hostile BMs. In a couple of years my SD will be off to college and we will be in the same position as BM of having to work out visits at SD’s convenience, depending on what she has going on in her young adult life. Frankly, even knowing that is coming it still hurts to think about it.

[GaGrl]

"It doesn't work for me anymore." It's just that - - she's a teen wanting to manage her own life. And is it inconsiderate of her dad and you? You bet. But it's normal.

Let her design her life and live with the consequences. My get is that she'll call you to visit, and the time will be more appreciated on her part.

[Klera]

"It doesn't work for me anymore." It's just that - - she's a teen wanting to manage her own life. And is it inconsiderate of her dad and you? You bet. But it's normal.

Thanks GaGrl, I'm hearing that it's normal.  I get that.  It's new for us! ughh

Is she being selfish? You bet! Is that pretty normal for the age? Yup! Does it have anything to do with choosing one parent over the other? Not in the slightest.

Thanks, Nope.  Good to hear.  I'm believing that SD isn't choosing her mother over us, but her mother pretty much lets her do whatever, probably not keeping tabs on her (I assume since her parenting is what it is).  We've found that SD is having trouble telling the truth about a lot of things. Oh joy.  So I think she has more freedom at her mother's which isn't a great thing to me. 

This is a long post (sorry!)  Probably TMI

Here's a bit more history: 

I "called" my SD on her behaviour recently prior to summer holidays, prior to final tests.   

Her therapist was trying to reach SD to make more appointments (with having completed around 4 sessions). T couldn't get an answer from her so she got in touch with H (hubby).  H tries texting D.  No answer.  H was friendly, open, non aggressive (delicate with her)...still nothing.   He kept trying.  Nothing.  By this point I had had enough of this  .  This is new behaviour, btw.  Normally up until this past year, she's been just 'normal' upbeat, friendly kiddo.   I tried texting SD.  Knowing what kind of 'mood' she was in I wasn't expecting an answer either. 
History:

She had been showing signs of depression during the last semester at school, was having some friend issues and ended up missing a crap load of  classes, tests and assignments.  This is just prior to the end of school (missing/skipping some classes, tests etc) pretty much around the month of May onward.  We found out later (from the school counsellor)  that BM was 'having trouble getting her out of her room to go to school' when H finally took the reigns and called the school about his concerns.   Kiddo got back into school for final 2 weeks, she was just overwhelmed so the school took charge and helped her to finish the year.   Her doctor had put her on some low dose of anti depressants, prior to this crap-storm to see if it would help her mood and help her sleep (she wasn't sleeping, started during winter holidays).  H jumped in to find her a therapist (prior to finding out she was skipping school and missing classes) which she seemed positive about.  Or so we thought.

Back to H trying to text SD:  So I tried texting her.   I basically told her that her dad was stressed out, that he was also in the middle of helping his elderly mother in hospital, visiting her daily etc. To please consider that he was trying to help her.  The theme of the message was me sticking up for H (rather protectively and with a firm tone) but not in any way (or so we thought) harsh.    I read my message to H, he thought that it was okay. 

Well.  That didn't go over well with her (how dare SM (me) try to step in and give her a piece of her mind - is what I'm interpreting).   I mentioned that I don't normally interfere (which I don't, I let H deal with this stuff) but that a wake up call (calling her on her behaviour-disrespecting her dad by ignoring him) is sometimes necessary.  To show some respect, gratitude, courtesy is not a lot to ask of her.

The next visit, she showed her dad my text and according to H she was all in a flap about it.   He told SD that it was done out of love and that he supported me but that he also was trying to be compassionate.  This was just before he dropped her off at her mother's house.   

So this just happened prior to this announcement of "not working for me", an example of something SD had up her backside.   That parents/teachers/ etc were finally coming down on her.  Like I said, normally up to this past school year she was doing well emotionally.  So I'm thinking with hormones, age, normal teen rebelliousness...trying to understand it all. 

So yeah, SD wants to manage her own life, make some decisions, great.  We'll sit back and see what comes of it.   She also has cancelled her guitar and T (therapy) appointments.  She told her dad "for the summer" but he looked into the guitar shop and she has just quit entirely.   This is something she shares with her dad (guitar) and her brother..

That really gets to me.  How she is just throwing in the towel at any obligation, not just back and forth visits between parents. 

I understand this age is not great for spending time with parents, and we will give her her space but it concerns me that H could lose track of her.  BM mom does not watch out as far as I know, after all, BM couldn't get the kid to go to school and was holed up in her room..and didn't tell H about the troubles she was having with kiddo. 

For father's day I had texted SS a couple of days prior to please remember to get in touch with his dad and to remind his sister too.  He did and he was chatty etc.  He's away on a school trip as I write this. The day before Fathers Day,  SD dropped by our house with some friend (whom we don't really like, a girl from school, supposedly one whom SD was at war with not speaking with during her friend troubles  and skipping classes) She just appeared in the driveway (with friend waiting across the street, which I found weird).  Hugged her dad (we were about to head out for a walk) and seemed upbeat, normal except she had a safety pin in her ear, which I was pretty concerned about..but hey, that's just me.  She said 'she'd call him tomorrow' Father's Day.  She managed to text, that's about it.   Great effort. I'm wondering if this friend of hers is influencing her behaviour.  This friend hates her own father supposedly, so I'm wondering about this 'friendship'.  SD doesn't really have a lot friends, and I'm even seeing her a bit needy in that department as well.   

I wonder at what's around the corner.   I guess we just sit back and wait and see if and when she'll decide that our house wasn't so bad after all.  She's close with her dad but I honestly don't know this kid right now.  I appreciate all of your input and support,  Thank you.

[ForeverDad]

Well, yes, at this time it appears she will do whatever she decides.  And, yes, relatively little can be done to convince her otherwise.  There's an old saying, "Experience is the best teacher."  Actually, it's not.  Better said, "Experience is life's harshest teacher."

If only she would listen... "Honey, you're choosing to take control too much of your life too soon.  We like that you're seeking increased independence but can it be ramped back a bit?  If so, we'll be standing up for you and behind you.  That said, with regard to some of these decisions, we feel, based on our own tough life experiences, that you're at risk to jump into the deep end of the pool without a lifeguard nearby to pull you out.  We're rooting for you but also understand that SM and I have discussed this and will let you face whatever consequences.  If and when that happens please remember we want the best outcomes for you, even if there turns out to be some pain along the way.  You might think experience is the best teacher, but we've lived it, experience can also be harsh.  Not just our thoughts: Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward. — Vernon Sanders Law"

[livednlearned]

Different circumstances but similar dynamic.

With SD25, who lives with us while she finishes grad school, there is a similar undertone.

I couldn't figure out why she seemed to love/admire/respect her dad and yet also has some contempt for him.

I thought maybe the contempt was taught by uBPD mom.

Now I'm wondering if there is some fury there because H didn't protect the kids.

SD25 does things to punish H. Sometimes she withdraws attention or cold shoulders him or is passively aggressive.

I wonder if it's the same with your SD16. She may love her dad and be furious at the same time, without understanding why. So she's trying out what it's like to punish him, to see if that helps deal with the pain and grief. Not consciously, because she's a teen. More like an experiment, to see if it provides any kind of relief.

I agree with FD that it's important to frame to her that she is wanted, that you both want her there, that it's tough to go back and forth and it's also how your family works. Then point out the obvious that she is old enough to choose, and maybe try to keep the lines of communication open so that you can talk about whether she's doing ok with the switch, with the knowledge she can always go back to half and half.

She may just be experimenting and when given the power, discover she is nowhere near ready to be making big decisions like that for herself.

[PeteWitsend]

Hi Klera

I read through the thread, and can appreciate your frustration with your SD's comment.

that being said, I agree with the comment from GaGrl that she is (or likely is) just being a difficult teenager.

I would respect her opinion, and give her space and time to think about it.  if there's one thing I've learned about pwBPD it's that stability won't last, and before you know it, chaos will emerge.   at some point your H's XW will dysregulate and blow up at your SD for some nonsense, and at that point your SD may have a change of heart as to what "works for her." 

The only thing you can't know is what sort of threats or other manipulative tactics your H's XW might be using to encourage her daughter to stay with her.  But as it's out of your control, all you can do is be patient and wait, and see what happens. 

[worriedStepmom]

Now I'm wondering if there is some fury there because H didn't protect the kids.

SD25 does things to punish H. Sometimes she withdraws attention or cold shoulders him or is passively aggressive.

I wonder if it's the same with your SD16. She may love her dad and be furious at the same time, without understanding why. So she's trying out what it's like to punish him, to see if that helps deal with the pain and grief. Not consciously, because she's a teen. More like an experiment, to see if it provides any kind of relief.

This was also my first thought.

You and your H failed to protect her, to the point of giving her mom more and more time.  SD isn't old enough to understand why, although she may finally be old enough to hear the reasons why.

She's struggling, and you sent messages telling her to think of her dad and his feelings.  That could be taken as invalidating, that she isn't as important as he is, and that no one cares what she feels and what she is going through.  (Remember, teenage drama filter.)

Immediately after that, H decided - on his own and absent a court order - to leave the schedule completely up to the kids.  This could be interpreted as him not wanting them, or not wanting them as much. 

The fact that she said "I'll come over if you want me to" sounded like teen code for "please tell me that you really want me?"

I think your H needs a nice long sit-down with SD to reassure her how much he loves her and wants to be with her, and to come up with a plan for the summer together.

[Panda39]

Hi Klera,

I'm not sure what's going on with your SD either, is she exerting her independence which is possible or she is depressed or there could also be issues with her mother at play.

Not going to school, not sleeping, not wanting to have a visitation plan, dropping guitar lessons, not going to Therapy.  Could be typical teenage "your not the boss of me" kinds of things, could be depression and the lack of energy that comes with that or a little of each or maybe her mom is using some FOG on her.

I hear your frustration at what sounds like ingratitude and protectiveness for your husband ( she pushed your button), but I don't think her intent was to be hurtful.  Remember she's 16...I don't even want to tell you what I was like at 15    But on top of being a teenager remember she has a mom with a lot of problems that likely puts certain types of pressures on her that other kids don't have to face.  When my Partner's kids were younger for example they missed a lot of school because their mother couldn't cope with things and they stayed home to take care of her  Parentification 

I would let her comment go, check in with her weekly let her know what if anything you have planned and let her decide if she wants to come over or ask her what she would like to do with you guys this summer.  Keep that door wide open to her, let her know you want to see her.  She may get over there and stay all summer you never know.   

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Klera]

Thanks for the responses!  Nice to see some familiar names.  In general I agree with a lot  and some interesting points were brought up.    I'm not good at quoting but managed to do some below:  It's probably a bit muddled up in order but here goes:

Could be typical teenage "your not the boss of me" kinds of things, could be depression and the lack of energy that comes with that or a little of each or maybe her mom is using some FOG on her.

Oh yeah, absolutely.  Who knows what her mother is saying or doing but no doubt FOG is her speciality as well as good old passive aggressiveness I'm told by H.       

Parentification

 
Yes, I believe SD has been involved with this for many years since she was little.  Absolutely. I'm thinking this is how she's developed into becoming a 'pleaser' (taking care of mom's needs, walking on eggshells). Her teacher mentioned this awhile back but I think perhaps SD now has discovered with friends, that they will take advantage.

remember she has a mom with a lot of problems that likely puts certain types of pressures on her that other kids don't have to face.

Excellent point.  No doubt this affects everything around her, problems with/instability in friendships.  I'm aware that SD doesn't host friends at her house, a way to distance herself from her mom (just a hunch).  We've also noticed some similarities with respect to some behaviours/traits between SD and mom.   Her brother said, 'she can't accept or admit when she's wrong'.  Which is a huge thing for him to reveal that to us.   We're not entirely sure what their brother/sister relationship is like at their moms but it's almost as if they never interact much.  I know they fight obviously and I suspect that their mom plays them against one another 'good' kid vs 'bad kid type of thing (hunch).   

but I don't think her intent was to be hurtful. 

Interestingly, our friend who's a counsellor, has spoken to SD recently.  She indicates to us that SD 'has no idea that she's hurt our feelings'.  Wow.  I'm not sure of the exact conversation but that was the gist of it.  Egocentric teen..

I would respect her opinion, and give her space and time to think about it.  if there's one thing I've learned about pwBPD it's that stability won't last, and before you know it, chaos will emerge.   at some point your H's XW will dysregulate and blow up at your SD for some nonsense, and at that point your SD may have a change of heart as to what "works for her." 

Absolutely.  That's what I believe too.   

You and your H failed to protect her, to the point of giving her mom more and more time.  SD isn't old enough to understand why, although she may finally be old enough to hear the reasons why.

That is a very big topic.   H contemplates this frequently (guilt).   He hates to think it but yes, they very well may have underlying resentment about him 'giving up' time.  We were always on standby in case mom decided she couldn't or wouldn't be primary parent.    I think 'failed to protect' is hard to accept, since he's done everything in his power to keep a close eye on them and to keep in constant contact, never giving them reason to fear him or not trust him. He's fallen on so many swords, catching 'stuff' before it hits the ground.    Throw in the fact that they keep a tight lid about life with mom (taboo topic) and show loyalty to their 'queen'.  All of which one day will all be unwoven/addressed in due course and I've always felt that if and when the truth does comes out (which I'm here to backup btw), we may have some p-r-e-t-t-y big surprises/revelations surface!  I can't wait for clarity and for these issues to be discussed/hashed out, whatever, however awkward, just everyone be open and honest (wouldn't THAT be nice?).  These kids have grown up to learn that speaking isn't 'safe' (about their mom) have always been censored by her and to not rock the boat between houses (enjoy the silence).   She has no doubt in my mind, been feeding them lies and delusions all of these years. I almost don't want to know.  I can tell you that there is a lot of fear (in the kids) and that FOG has played a huge roll.  I think that is the biggest obstacle is to bust that wall down somehow. Whatever the age.    It may be in their 30's.. who knows?

love her dad and be furious at the same time,

Possibly.  We do wonder how long/what she's been holding stuff in and how far back it goes.   How long has living in two houses 'not worked for you' anyway?   Let's hear it, kiddo, out with it.   

Finally, I'd agree and will keep the lines of communication open and the door and welcome them as much as possible, of course we will.

I've been doing some review on "Queen" BPD moms.  I'm concerned that SD is showing (?developing) some common behaviours/traits as her mother.

Thanks again for all your input.      

[empathic]

I can relate to this. I had my D13 50/50 up until end of last year, when she suddenly decided switching places wasn't working for her. This coincided with puberty and a need to be closer to her mom (anxiety).

It was a hard blow to me, as we had a really good relation. Talked a lot, common interests in music, TV-shows etc.

I even had a tiny house built on the premesis for her and her friends, which ate up a lot of my savings. It now stands there empty.

Like you say, I don't know how much FOG is going on at her mothers' house. Her mother uses homework as an excuse for D to stay there all the time. Granted, I'm not as organized when it comes to that - but there must be other values than homework I can contribute with?

Sorry to hear that you're dealing with something similar...it really sucks.

[Klera]

Hi Empathetic

Yes it does suck. Sorry about that!  On one hand you feel you have no choice but to let her go but then you're left with this residual hurt.   

I can relate as well.   Our place is for the kids, we have space, they are provided well.  My H bought SD one of those free standing hammocks last summer, which she loved (it's in the basement unused but I think I'll go and claim it! you snooze, you lose, kiddo - I guess the hammock "didn't work for her either").   Bitter much? you bet.  I'm trying not to dwell on 'those feelings'.

My H says he's okay, but I can tell he's hurt.   It's been a week since we've heard from SD16.   She may be oblivious and not missing us but if she is, she is firmly taking her position that she's under no obligation to call  him if she doesn't want to let alone ask to come over to visit.   They have always had a really close bond, yet it appears she has suddenly changed.  What H is angry about is that if D felt that she didn't like living in two houses and that this back and forth didn't work for her, how long has she felt that way and that she hasn't said anything. Keep in mind he separated from ex wife 11 years ago, the kids were SS4 (he's 15 now) and SD5 (she's 16 now).  They haven't known anything else except the two houses and they always looked forward to seeing us and their dad.  They always missed him and were never 'mummy clingy' or ever mentioned they missed her when they were little (4 and 5 yo).   He can't wrap his brain around that because he's always felt he's been approachable and open for discussions on this stuff.  Now suddenly this bomb dropped and he's angry that she didn't have 'the guts' to say anything before now.   

There's also some ego involved.  After all, our place is nicer, cleaner, spacious than their mom's but I guess that doesn't work for kiddo.   We're left scratching our heads so that's when I know SD is wanting her freedom (I get that) but I'm also left feeling that FOG is winning over at mom's house or she's being bribed to stay over there or mom is enjoying that SD isn't in touch with dad or me.  I know, how petty of me but I can't help think that. 

It's definitely a lesson on patience and understanding.   I know things change, the kids are growing up and this is just part of life, but it's different for us (and more tricky, difficult) that deal with pwBPD (mother of kids).  We are on the lookout for signs and stuff that isn't 'normal' and stresses that other kids don't have to face.  So when you're protective and provide everything for them, when something that doesn't quite make sense happens, there are stresses or triggers there that other parents don't have.


Anyway, I understand you too.

As long as our intentions are good, come from a place of love, for a higher good, then you can't go wrong.  It's just a matter of hoping that the kids will be okay and that they know you're there for them. 

I suppose we have to learn to trust that change is inevitable and this is part of their growth.   But yes, it sucks sometimes!  There's no other way to put it. 

take care and don't hesitate to reach out.

cheers,
Klera

[Klera]

I forgot, the schedule wasn't suddenly changed.   The kids had known for an entire year (since LAST summer) that there would be no schedule in place for this summer.   When he sent it over to the kids' mom via PDF, he mentioned to her that in 'case they get jobs for next summer' that he was leaving thing open.  She did not respond to him whatsoever.   

There were several attempts by H to discuss the summer plans/schedule with them, he asked both of them for input (Easter), did they want to add anything, have opinions? etc
Silence, and shake of the head or just kind of lack of enthusiasm.  They didn't say much at all about it so he left it.

The kids, especially SD, had full opportunity to mention or discuss the schedule or lack of one, but didn't.  So by the time the final week of school, SD comes out with 'the two houses wasn't working for her'...made it that much more hurtful and unexpected.

[Panda39]

Maybe the problem is actually giving the kids the choice about summer visitation.  With a rational co-parent this is a non-issue but with at BPD parent this can put the kids in the middle.  They are likely getting FOG with a BPDmom. In her mind it's likely...you now have a choice so you better choose me! You're either with me or against me...that black and white thinking.

I often felt my Partner's daughters chose their mother over him (during the parental alienation period) because mom's love was full of strings and conditions and threats (FOG) and dad's love was unconditional...they knew he would love them no matter what but not so with their mother.

Panda39

[empathic]

Agree with Panda39 about conditioned love. Too bad that unconditional love gets punished by less time with the kid.

Don't know if it's the case in your situation, but my daughter has a lot of anxiety right now, and asks ex-wife for reassurance, tying her even closer. I think it's established that asking for reassurance (and getting it) when it comes to anxiety is a malign loop. I've tried to make her stronger and able to deal with the thoughts herself, but it's fruitless when the effort is torn down by ex. We have a therapist session scheduled for daughter in a few weeks at least.

What about after summer, will your regular schedule resume then?

[livednlearned]

my daughter has a lot of anxiety right now, and asks ex-wife for reassurance, tying her even closer. I think it's established that asking for reassurance (and getting it) when it comes to anxiety is a malign loop.

Something similar goes on with SD22. When she was 16, her uBPD mom was so enmeshed, and equally emotionally undeveloped, that it was more two kids than an adult + teen trying to figure things out. It was almost like then SD16 was more aligned with the (seemingly) closer-in-age parent because uBPD mom was more relatable, which isn't great when you're a teen trying to figure out how to grow into a mature adult.

Over time, SD22 has developed an anxious habit of checking in with multiple people when she's anxious, trying to figure out who is giving reliable advice. She seems to have realized that her mom's advice either doesn't help or leads to worse outcomes.

Kids do come back and cycle round. As things get tougher, there's a really good chance your SD16 will swing back. She may be sorting something out right now, learning from direct experience, because teens do that.

Enjoy the reprieve if you can. If the kids come back as late teens/young adults you'll have your hands full again 

[Klera]

Hi Panda

mom's love was full of strings and conditions and threats (FOG) and dad's love was unconditional...they knew he would love them no matter what but not so with their mother.

Yes, without actually knowing exactly WHAT mom is doing or saying I'm convinced that this has been our case since the beginning.

 I saw mom's hostility towards me first hand when SD was 7 or 8.  SD ran to hug me on my own doorstep with mom watching from the car.   I think back then their mom used to give them a mouthful (I'm your mother, not Klera stuff) in the car on the way over before she would drop them off, so, in retaliation one day, with spunk and determination in her stride, my SD ran up the stairs and literally would jump into my arms showing mom: 'nope, you can't control this, I can love Klera if I want to, thank you very much'.  Their mom literally screeched off almost losing control of the car.  It didn't faze them, like they were used to seeing their mom drive like a maniac!    Now I can see what a pwBPD mom will do to her kids' heads.  I remember years ago,  I'd watched from the window, my SS (around that same age 7 or 8) being dropped off at our house. He was standing beside  her car with her, she towering over him holding his bag, the body language was if she was lecturing him (giving him an earful or coaching) his body language was slumped over, not standing straight and as I remember this looking back now, I believe she would do her worst in her car on the way over, with that final 'now, don't you forget..' for good measure.    I doubt she has changed at all. In fact I know it.  Years on, she's still as spiteful as ever.  It does still concern me obviously, what she is capable of and to what lengths she will go or what tactics she uses.  

More recently this past winter, my H and I were sitting in SS's gym for a band concert waiting for it to begin.   Behind us, SD was sitting in the bleachers alone waiting for her mom to park the car, saving her a seat.  I gestured for SD to come and sit with her dad and I.    She shook her head with a stern quick 'are you kidding?' look in her eyes.  Her butt was not moving off of those bleachers because she always sits with her mother and doing anything else would be considered treason.  

The next school event, H went alone, I didn't go.  This is the only one that I've ever missed for either kid.  H told me that D sat with him and left mom to sit on her own. Really? I was shocked.   I'm concluding that mom's issues are to do with me rather than with the kids' dad (joy)..which is why I reach out to other stepparents.  Our only crime is only about simply existing and loving the kids but of course in my case, mom will never ever ever come to terms with me. Ever.    
  
Most recently, I'm now convinced that SD shared my firm 'don't disrespect your dad, show him some courtesy and gratitude' calling-her-out  text to mumsy dearest and it has escalated to a whole other level of an 'that evil Klera' smear campaign &/or convincing her daughter that I have no right in telling SD off. (of course it's a hunch but...)  Suddenly SD has gone off the map? yup Mom has definitely got her fingers in this somehow.  Even if SD wants some space, fine but like I said before she's been a different kid lately since summer began.

Hi Empathetic
 

I've tried to make her stronger and able to deal with the thoughts herself, but it's fruitless when the effort is torn down by ex. We have a therapist session scheduled for daughter in a few weeks at least.

I can completely relate to this.  I know it's hard to go through.   Anything good that dad does, is somehow messed with in any and every capacity that she can.  Our slogan is, "if it can be messed with, she will"  I'm a bit more harsh when I refer to it as "pisses all over it" but I can't help it when I'm angry.  

I know it's frustrating.  I'm glad to hear that your D has a therapist!  I wish you both the best with that.    

What about after summer, will your regular schedule resume then?

Oh gawd, who knows at this point but  I'd say probably not.  We have to get through the summer first and see if the kids can use their voice.  SS14 (I keep forgetting he's not 15 yet) seems to be more open about what he wants or open for discussion but SD is a sealed up can which makes me believe mom's antics are more effective her (ie the bleachers incident)  "Must be seen to be loyal to mom at all costs"  Do not show love to step mom     Like I mentioned before, H tried to involve them with making up the schedule, "what do you guys want to do"  (silence) whenever he would bring it up.   jeesh... are they that intimidated by their mom? of course they are..FOG working its highest level.    

Hi LVnL

mom was so enmeshed, and equally emotionally undeveloped, that it was more two kids than an adult + teen trying to figure things out.  

Yup! this is what I think is the case, definitely.     Mom was having trouble (couldn't get) SD out of her room to go to school from May onward, pretty much sums up who wears the pants over there.  I'm sure that they have this codependent type of thing going on. My SD has been subjected to parentification for years and when SHE needs a parent to parent HER?  Nope. We did see the kids' mom out last week, you can tell that walking for her is uncomfortable, she is quite a large gal (the kids' mom is food addict, eating disordered too) I know she has had issues with her knees and back in the past, healthwise she struggles with sleep apnea too.  We saw her get into her car and gesture to another driver in anger, so we can see she is not a happy camper, even by herself, out in public.  

Over time, SD22 has developed an anxious habit of checking in with multiple people when she's anxious, trying to figure out who is giving reliable advice. She seems to have realized that her mom's advice either doesn't help or leads to worse outcomes.

That's interesting -  exactly similar.    Both kids have anxiety about everything (always have!).  My SS asks for dad's advice but SD? nope.  In fact, anything health related for example with SD, if we offer ie, "here kid, take a multi vitamin"  tends to be overridden by mom. Once mom heard that I was giving a multi vitamin to SD, she came back telling me that 'she didn't need one, that all she is, is iron deficient and refused it from me.  Good grief.   Mom is right (power freak) everyone else is wrong, especially if it comes from SM (me) and I have a medical background which anything I say or offer the kids is challenged.    If SS knows it's serious, he consults his dad.  He fell at school last year and got a concussion.   Mom left him at school for the rest of the afternoon that day, didn't bother to pick him up right away, he went back to class and then finally that night called his dad to see what he should do as he wasn't "quite right".  Off to the emerg they finally go, but mom couldn't seem to come with that idea on her own?  Good gawd.  Anything I tell SS is more and more becoming challenged by him with this 'tone' I get in return.  This kid has this superiority thing at the moment but I keep on top of it and call him out if I detect any rudeness but I firmly believe it's mom's influence in there somewhere as she is exactly the same temperment. Yay.     Our friend says that SD seems to be mom-in-training and finds that she has become more and more negative, which is her mother's influence without a doubt.  

Enjoy the reprieve if you can. If the kids come back as late teens/young adults you'll have your hands full again  

Thanks!  will do.  I'm getting stuff done as much as I can.  

Right now, we're waiting to hear from them.  It's been 10 days for SD.   H just told me he's worried that D and mom will try and 'work on son' to stay at her house.  I think SD is firmly putting her heels in and keeping her distance at the moment.  The silent treatment.   My spidey sense is mom might be enjoying the fact that she has them in her camp right now...oh well, what can ya do?   Enjoy the silence...It's mom's b.day in a few days so I'm sure she's got the door locked in case they have ideas of skipping that fun party scene over there.  

Take care everyone.  Thanks for the input, always appreciated!

[Panda39]

Klera,

Are your step-kids getting any therapy? It might benefit them to be able to talk with a neutral outside person.  You might also want to check out Dr. Craig Childress...Parental Alienation expert.

Panda39

[Klera]

SD was seeing someone that her dad suggested, had gone to a few sessions (about 8) throughout a two month period just prior to school ending.   Her dad asked her if she had any more appointments after that and she responded with she 'wanted to take a break for summer' or along those lines.   My SS doesn't see anyone.   Years ago, H and ex  were involved with seeing a 'neutral' counsellor/therapist which was suggested by the mediator or 'parent coordinator' as part of their legal parental agreement.   Both parties had to mutually agree upon one out of three names suggested to them.   However, during that time, mom meddled, and literally every single time it was dad's turn to take them, picking them up from school, they ended up being at home 'sick'.  It just became a joke with mom's antics but they eventually completed whatever sessions was appointed.  Years prior to that period,  mom took the kids to see someone without dad's knowledge and then next thing you know my H got a phone call from this therapist accusing him of verbally abusing/yelling at the kids.   You can imagine the s-storm that came as a result of that!   I believe strongly that mom just cannot face nor tolerate the kids saying/exposing anything or having to admit that she's to blame for anything especially her parenting and that her worst fear is her being 'judged'.  That's just what I suspect, but gawd knows what the real reasons were.    With the most recent therapist that my SD sees, she was recommended by a friend of ours, whom also is a counsellor and therefore helped facilitate SD see this particular one.  So I assume mom probably had a control issue with it, that dad taking control and initiative made her look like a bad neglectful parent and there is a possibility that she's talked SD into this 'break' during the summer.   I don't have evidence of that, but it's based on spidey senses.   

 

[Klera]

Thanks Panda,

I'm impressed with Dr. Childress, thank you!  I'm understanding things more clearly (wow).   

cheers,
Klera

[empathic]

Hi Empathetic
 
I can completely relate to this.  I know it's hard to go through.   Anything good that dad does, is somehow messed with in any and every capacity that she can.  Our slogan is, "if it can be messed with, she will"  I'm a bit more harsh when I refer to it as "pisses all over it" but I can't help it when I'm angry.  

I know it's frustrating.  I'm glad to hear that your D has a therapist!  I wish you both the best with that.    

Thanks!  Ex wanted to take her there by herself, but I insisted that I go too. I have a bad experience from before in therapy settings with ex...I get the blame for everything while she is perfect. I'm not exactly looking forward to it, would much rather have taken D there myself.

Your term "the queen" is very applicable here as well. And "free daycare". At times I feel more like a grandparent than a father, ex now decides everything about the kids. She and her new bf are going on a vacation in a few weeks...then it's OK for the kids to stay at my place of course.

It saddens me how much the kids (I have a S15 as well) are now enmeshed in her life and the lives of her relatives. I guess it's what she always wanted - she always resented my birth family, so this plays right into her plans.

Just feels rather unfair...I have invested so much in the kids and did most of the parenting when they were small as my wife found that time so difficult.

Your SO should be grateful he has you in his corner. As my mother passed away last year I don't have too many supporters left.

[Klera]

 

Ex wanted to take her there by herself, but I insisted that I go too. I have a bad experience from before in therapy settings with ex...I get the blame for everything while she is perfect. I'm not exactly looking forward to it, would much rather have taken D there myself.

Why don't you?   I think you answered your own thought here.  I'd highly recommend you go separately.  Of course she will play the blame game (it's what borderlines do), don't put yourself in that position for her to do so.   One of the biggest things to remind yourself, "Never let her see that she gets to you" in other words, she will go for your weak spots (triggers) it's just what pwbdp do and they get off on it.   Walk away from the fight, turn the other cheek, you cannot win with 'them' (I say that like it's another species but honestly..).  I've been with H for years watching the letters go back and forth, the game playing, the low blows (from her), circular discussions that go nowhere, gaslighting, it goes on and on. Finally we have no contact between houses anymore as the kids got into their teens and are aware.  It's not worth your nervous system and health, trust me.  One has to learn to take care of yourself first.  It's not as easy as it sounds but we've all been there.   Nobody's perfect, and sounds your ex has a little superiority complex going on with herself.   

"free daycare". At times I feel more like a grandparent than a father, ex now decides everything about the kids. She and her new bf are going on a vacation in a few weeks...then it's OK for the kids to stay at my place of course.

Yup.  Been there too.  I don't know what legal arrangements that are in place but you sound like it's not on equal ground here.  Remember just because she's mom, she's not the boss of you or how YOU parent or decides on the visitation on her own.   There are different parenting styles which, trust me, that's hard to accept a lot of the time.   But having said that, when D is with you, you're the boss, when D is with mom, she's the boss.  Don't let her control everything.  Things like medication and other important things to discuss, yes, but other than that..it's a firm boundary you might need to take a look at to see what you might want to start making for yourself.  Make sense? 

It saddens me how much the kids (I have a S15 as well) are now enmeshed in her life and the lives of her relatives. I guess it's what she always wanted - she always resented my birth family, so this plays right into her plans.

Gosh,that saddens me just reading that!  What about your family?  they are part of your side too remember.   Just because she 'resents' anything doesn't mean the kids are banned from your family.   Do you and your kids see your side?  How about plans for the summer?

Just feels rather unfair...I have invested so much in the kids and did most of the parenting when they were small as my wife found that time so difficult.

Yes, I know it does feel that way sometimes.    I know H also did more care time for his kids too in the beginning when they were small.  Time is an investment and they've benefitted from being with their dad.   I think often one is made to feel insignificant or less than by the other ex and your confidence perhaps is being shaken.  Do the best you can, and anything done with good, loving intention is not wrong in my book.  Try to keep your head up, friend.  Appreciate the good things you share with your kids and pat yourself on the back sometimes okay?

Your SO should be grateful he has you in his corner. As my mother passed away last year I don't have too many supporters left.

You've got us here.   Sounds like you need to expand your social network.  How about other parents that you know via your kids, school.  Think of some ways you can 'get out there' and go find that person for your corner!  I hope I've helped in some way.   
 

[Klera]

As my mother passed away last year I don't have too many supporters left.

I'm so sorry for your loss, as I'm sure this must be such a difficult time for you.   I just passed over this earlier.  What I wanted to mention to you, is that since this is the case (losing your mom) that you're still grieving (and I'm only assuming here), but this other family stuff can be that much more challenging emotionally.  Give yourself time and space for some healing.  I would imagine the ex having a new BF is not easy either!   I wish you the best and do take good care of yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

Maybe the problem is actually giving the kids the choice about summer visitation.

That resonated with me.  We all try to be reasonable and accommodating but that can give room for the pressuring parent to influence the children to appease one parent over the other.  That issue is mentioned in Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison.

With half the summer gone, you don't have much time to salvage the rest.  Have you declared a vacation?  Is there still time to do so?  Courts almost universally put vacations ahead of the regular schedule, only holidays get greater priority.  A vacation would give you at least a couple weeks with them both.

Also,what does the legal order state?  You could default to that — yeah, no more Mr Nice Guy — though in reality after waiting a few months for a hearing a court could grant the older teens' wishes.  Generally though, it would still require the kids to spend at least alternate weekends with dad.  It's not like the court would grant them to ignore dad totally.

[Klera]

In a nutshell..H told ex (in an email to her he sent last summer along with the PDF copy of the annual 'visiting schedule' that he makes up and sends to her at the end of August) that, since there is a possibility that the kids will now likely have summer jobs that he was leaving this years summer schedule open and in an indirect sort of way, that the kids can make their own choices for this summer...

Ex did not respond.  Impressed? (exhale) Personally I read the silence was deafening, but actually it was expected as she rarely acknowledges nor thanks H for the time and effort it takes to make this thing, print it off and send it out of sheer courtesy on his part.  He is not obligated in any way.

He doesn't require court action.   If H wants to go back to the equally shared holidays, then he can.  The legal parent agreement in place is both parties agree to split all holidays equally between them. 

SS14 is leaving tomorrow after being here for two weeks (his decision he says) although it looks like he wants to continue the two week on, two week off thing all summer he's used to but to me,  that it feels more like it's mom's choice.  He is still searching for a summer job despite the limited time left but he's also been accepted into a band and might be hired in the fall with some feedback he's had so far.   SD16 just announced the other night (after 4 weeks with no contact) via text that she has a job hostessing in a new pub. 

Vacation together? nope.   

Since SD has not been in touch for a month but then suddenly sends a blunt text (somewhat cold and short) H is still perplexed about her.

Overall, this summer was about learning and testing out a new idea, to see if the kids were willing and/or able to show us their voice and perhaps overcome the suspected pressure of their mothers oppressive controlling/alienative tendencies.    We still don't really have firm conclusions yet.   

 

 

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338431.msg13067010#msg13067010

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