Part 2: Weighing up breakup, confused...is this just pure manipulation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337608.0

My closest "local" support by the way is my mum whom I strongly suspect to also have some sort of PD or mental health issues and I can't take a night at her house.

My dad's house is off limits as he's supposed to shun me for religious reasons. He doesn't really and does talk to me but sleeping over is a no-go. My brother would be my usual port of call but he's abroad right now and my nearest friend is 3 hours away and has a toddler with chicken pox and my other friend is also on holiday until mid-July.

I could stay in a hotel for the night but it's a financial strain I could do without. I always have an emergency overnight bag packed in the back of my car if I do have to leave. If I need a long time out I'll probably take myself out to dinner and go watch a movie.

I guess now that I've decided on what to do about her 48 hour deadline I can get back to trying to rest and recuperate and get a perspective on what I want out of my relationship and decide if me and her can cope with another recycle. I'll just have to brace for chaos on Saturday!

Thanks again for all your advice. I keep reading it over and over until it sinks in, my brain isn't too great at processing stuff right now.

[G1B8oN]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337608.0

My closest "local" support by the way is my mum whom I strongly suspect to also have some sort of PD or mental health issues and I can't take a night at her house.

My dad's house is off limits as he's supposed to shun me for religious reasons. He doesn't really and does talk to me but sleeping over is a no-go. My brother would be my usual port of call but he's abroad right now and my nearest friend is 3 hours away and has a toddler with chicken pox and my other friend is also on holiday until mid-July.

I could stay in a hotel for the night but it's a financial strain I could do without. I always have an emergency overnight bag packed in the back of my car if I do have to leave. If I need a long time out I'll probably take myself out to dinner and go watch a movie.

I guess now that I've decided on what to do about her 48 hour deadline I can get back to trying to rest and recuperate and get a perspective on what I want out of my relationship and decide if me and her can cope with another recycle. I'll just have to brace for chaos on Saturday!

Thanks again for all your advice. I keep reading it over and over until it sinks in, my brain isn't too great at processing stuff right now.

[formflier]

I felt like just replying like that today  though would encourage her to continue to bomb my phone with messages all day (the message count from her has reached 11) and I can feel my tolerance for that running low so I thought best to just be straightforward and ask for some quiet time. Perhaps I should have put a time limit in there like "I look forward to chatting with you over dinner" ?
 

For the next long while.  When you "feel" like communicating a certain way...pause.  Be deliberate about cutting it in half.  Then in half again.   Especially via impersonal methods such as text. 

If talking in person, likely a good idea to ask ahead of time if she is ready to listen for a bit.  Then, if she says yes, ramble on until she proves she isn't ready to listen.  At that point...let her know you'll wait until she is ready.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I can get back to trying to rest and recuperate and get a perspective on what I want out of my relationship and decide if me and her can cope with another recycle. I'll just have to brace for chaos on Saturday!

Thanks again for all your advice. I keep reading it over and over until it sinks in, my brain isn't too great at processing stuff right now.. 

Look at the two things I highlighted.  They don't go together..do they?

I'm encouraging you to be "deliberate" your words.  Add to the list "be deliberate your thinking."

Think about your relationship and future when you are "at your best".  Otherwise..pick something else.

For now...think about how great it is to be plugged in and recharging.  Think about what YOU will offer to the "process" of the conversation on Saturday. 

OK..I wonder why FF said "process" and didn't suggest what to say?  What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

mum whom I strongly suspect to also have some sort of PD or mental health issues

My dad's house is off limits as he's supposed to shun me for religious reasons.

At some point when you have time to breath... not now, it would be worth looking at these 2 factors and seeing how they plug into why you accept the type of behaviours you're accepting. Does it somehow feel comfortable... like home?

Hope you find some peace this weekend and ride the waves with a huge amount of mental strength and power.

Enabler   

[G1B8oN]

Look at the two things I highlighted.  They don't go together..do they?

OK..I wonder why FF said "process" and didn't suggest what to say?  What do you think?

Yeah, I see what you mean. What I meant to say was that the pressure of her 48h deadline meant that it was consuming my thoughts and I wasn't able to think about anything else. Once I'd decided on a course of action it was easier to just focus on R&R after which I'd be able to get things into perspective. I know I can't get a clear perspective right now and that's why the 48h doesn't work for me.

I can see that I have a lot of work to do with my communication, I can't help but feel down about it and like I've been failing myself and my partner despite my best efforts. I don't find communication easy at the best of times, I think I'm quite a bit along the spectrum, my ex (whose job it was to diagnose and treat autism) was convinced I had Aspergers and I don't really disagree with her.

Can you recommend any good books other than the two I've already studied to help with formulating my responses on the fly? I totally understand that it's impossible to have a stock answer for every scenario and I don't want to come across as insincere or wooden but the more I second guess myself the more confused and anxious I'm feeling.

At some point when you have time to breath... not now, it would be worth looking at these 2 factors and seeing how they plug into why you accept the type of behaviours you're accepting. Does it somehow feel comfortable... like home?

I've come to the realisation through self-reflection and conversations with my brother that my dad was very codependent but also a total man-child who also cannot regulate his emotions.

I've been trying to work on my codependency and it's this which has helped me withdraw from some of the crazy stuff I used to do like get out of bed at 4 am to pick my partner up from town after a night out even though she's perfectly capable of getting a taxi or driving her 1 hour out of my way to take her to work then sleeping (or trying to) in my car, even in winter whilst she did her 5 hour evening shift because it cost me too much in time and petrol to go home just for a few hours and she couldn't get home from work without a ride from me.

Being raised in a dysfunctional family who were also in a religious cult really normalised a lot of terrible behaviour for me as a child. I was also expected to parent my parents and they offloaded a lot of their c***p onto my narrow child's shoulders. I definitely see how I ended up in this situation but I'm determined to break free of this cycle one way or the other.

Tonight has been quite peaceful. We've eaten dinner and played on the Wii for a couple of hours and had some nice light chats about our day, my family's current crisis involving my stepbrother and the weird behaviour of our cat! Sadly she's been drinking all night and is now about 7 beers in so there's no way I'd broach any kind of serious discussion with her right now. Incidentally, her latest suicide attempt on Sunday night occurred after she'd consumed half a bottle of spirits and she decided she would avoid drinking for a while "because it leads to bad decisions". I'm feeling really sad that she's broken that promise to herself twice this week already.

[formflier]

So...suicide attempt?  Was she hospitalized?  What have the doctors said about her?

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

It's all there in my very long first post 

I reached rock bottom. I thought about how it had been when we were broken up and I thought about how all her new self-insight and change was so fleeting. I highly doubted that she would ever seek the help she needs or even admit she has problems. I couldn't bear for things to go back to the way they were, so, after a month of trying, I told her that I didn't think the relationship was working, that I thought we should separate, that I love her and care about her (I do, enormously) but I am not happy with the relationship and that I don't see any prospect of it improving. Initially she said she agreed and then, once it sank in, she seemed shocked. She said that she thought things had been much better, that we were just having a blip and she couldn't believe I could be so cruel and heartless. I went downstairs to try and sleep on the sofa bed...she followed and said that she just needed to be near me. She sat and stared at me looking so sorrowful and hurt that I felt like my heart was being ripped out. After about an hour of silent staring she asked if it was my final decision. I said, yes, I'd put a lot of thought into it and it wasn't something I was doing lightly or as a punishment. That I loved her and wanted the best for her but that I couldn't continue in a relationship that I thought was damaging and hurtful. She went upstairs and I found her writing a suicide note. She said if I wouldn't be in a relationship with her then she didn't want to live. I told her that if I thought she was going to hurt herself that I would call the police like last time. She said she wouldn't but then half an hour later I caught her attempting to overdose on my medication. I called an ambulance and we ended up in A&E for the night. The mental health crisis team spoke to her for a couple of hours and then brought me in. They asked me what I thought and I said that I felt as though I was being given an impossible choice - stay in the relationship or she would end her life. They asked her what she thought and she agreed that without the relationship she had no reason to live. They seemed unhappy at this and basically asked me if I'd be home to keep an eye on her if they discharged her. I said I would and then they said to her that they feel strongly she needs counselling. Then they said that they thought DBT would be the best therapy for her but unfortunately they were unable to offer it in our area and handed her some self-help DBT worksheets instead. They explained to her that she needs to learn how to regulate her emotions better, that she needs to learn how to self soothe, to question herself when her feelings might not be facts and to practice radical acceptance. I sat there feeling a mixture of relief and anger. To me it seemed obvious that they recognised she may have BPD but that they knew that they couldn't offer her any effective treatment. Instead they suggested she try CBT as they could offer that and gave her a prescription of antidepressants. I offered to pay for her to see a DBT therapist privately and have found two locally(ish) that specialise in BPD. She said she would seriously consider it but was reluctant to take my money. I haven't mentioned BPD to her, I've just spoken about DBT as that's all the mental health team spoke about at the hospital.

For the next two days I felt like she nagged at me and wore me down. I was so exhausted and shell-shocked from it all that I barely used the communication tools. The fact that she was willing to try counselling was huge to me but I'm really ambivalent about trying this relationship again. I explained to her that I felt that I couldn't risk any further hurt to either of us by rushing into the relationship and that I needed time to think, rest, recover and work on myself. I also suggested that she would benefit from the time to focus on herself too. I suggested we take a break of few weeks, maybe a couple of months just to support each other outside of relationship pressures and try and work on our separate issues before re-engaging the relationship with a view to using couples counselling as we reconnected. She was not happy with that and instead yesterday gave me a 48-hour deadline to decide whether I want a relationship with her or not because she needs to be able to plan her life.

[formflier]

I remember now.  So sorry.

OK...what is the process going forward for her treatment for the suicide attempt?

So professionals evaluated her and sent her home..and then what?

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

So yesterday evening I asked how she was doing and had the mental health crisis team called her like they promised.

Her response was "Yes, and they've referred me to IAPT. I can see you're keen to ram counselling down my throat"

This was a pretty worrying 

If she's engaging in counselling for the wrong reasons and isn't committed, it won't work. I haven't asked her anything else about it yet or repeated my offer of funding a DBT/BPD counsellor privately. The message to back off and leave her to it for now was clear so that's what I'm going to do I think...

[G1B8oN]

Also, I don't know how familiar you are with IAPT but it's very low-grade stuff. It's mainly aimed at depression an/or anxiety with a very heavy focus on CBT.

Most people either end up doing an online course or some sort of group therapy. If you're lucky you might get 6x 1:1 sessions with a counsellor but their focus is again on CBT.

[G1B8oN]

Well, the deadline came and went. She sat looking at me expectantly at lunchtime and I told her that I know it's important to her, me too, I am not going to rush such an important decision about our future. I'm not doing this to hurt her, it's just something I need.

She then declared that "yes or "no" were the only acceptable answers and "I don't know" counts as no because it shouldn't be hard to decide if I want to be with her. I said that the ball is in her court on that one.

The first thing she did was throw every card, note and sentimental gift I ever bought her in the bin. She spent the rest of the day singing along to loud music packing and sorting her stuff. When she does the singing and acts really happy like this I know she's hurt and really, really angry.

As for me, I spent the day in exhaustion. I read a book in the sunshine, had several naps and watched some TV. At one point I drove us both to the supermarket to pick up some food and I treated myself to an ice cream sandwich!

I'm so tired of it all, I feel very emotionally constipated and a bit numb. Physically, I feel exhausted.

At about 11:30pm when I was fast asleep she sent me a text message which I saw early this morning:

I appreciate you giving me a lift with you to the supermarket today.
Its half hour until the day is over and today is the day I said I'd need my decision by. Knowing what a 'no decision' would mean as I had previously stated, you still gave me that.
 
I hope this isn't about  stubbornness and that it is genuine. You did dump me after all. I understand that you think I'm not respecting your need for time to think about whether you can see us working or not, but I needed to know whether I would have you in my life in order to make plans and move forward. My needs count too. You know I want to be with you, but you also should know that what you're doing is not fair. I can't be expected to wait for you to make your mind up about me whilst I hurt for wanting you every day.

I'm sorry. You made this decision for the both of us. I hope you don't regret it as there really is no going back from this. This is not an ultimatum, it's your choice. You either want to be with me or you don't. If you can't decide whether you want to be with me now or not, then that's probably a good indicator that I'm not the one for you. As highly unlikely as it is, you know where I am If you change your mind within this short space of time.

If not, I honestly wish you all the best. I've still got more grieving to do but the precedent you've set by avoiding me and sleeping downstairs has already destroyed me and I'm starting to feel less strongly about that the more it happens. I will be ok. I hope you will too. I honestly wish you all the best in life and hope that you succeed. I suppose it's good in a way that now you've got rid of me, at least you have one less thing to worry about. You can now watch as much TV and read all you like without thinking that it bothers me for some reason. I'm sorry you couldn't see what we could have been and done something for me for a change. Your choice. Goodnight. Xx

I asked her at one point in the day if she'd ever made a bad decision about something when under stress and when feeling in a bad place emotionally? She thought about it for a bit and said "yes". I asked her if she could understand that I was feeling under stress and in a bad place and that I didn't want to make a decision I'd later regret under those circumstances? Her response was "yes, but this shouldn't be a hard decision and I NEED to know TODAY".

[formflier]

How about..."of course I want to be with you.  I am giving a lot of thought to how we conduct our relationship."

FF

[G1B8oN]

I really don't know if I do want to be with her. The more I think about it, the more I think I don't want this any more.

I don't think she'll ever actually accept that the way she behaves is not OK and that we BOTH need to change. It's always only about her feelings and her needs.

I read threads on here from people who have stayed in their relationship, there's so much regret. So much of what they have to do or put up with isn't what I want from a relationship. Radically accepting that we'll never be equals, that I'll always have to be wary of sharing my feelings with her and that it's always going to be me validating her and never the other way around...I don't think that's what I want.

The fact that I'm even using her willingness to consider counselling as a factor in whether to stay with her seems dangerous to me too, like I'm still way too enmeshed.

[formflier]

I don't disagree with your analysis of what you have seen here.

I would point out, that much of this is "perspective".   

Take me for example.  Do I have the life I "want" or that I dreamed about...or that I used to have.  (normal marriage for about 15 years).

No...not by a long shot.  Am I "happy" with my life...do I have hope for the future?  Yes..absolutely.

I am the type that wants to make a decision based on "experience" rather than "fear" of what I will experience.  So...I set out to "test the limits" of this relationship, myself and my wife.  Once I understood the underlying "rules"..which are basically that my wife is fearful of abandonment and that she and her FOO don't handle emotions well (very polite way of expressing it)...that gives me power and a pathway to carve out a life that works for me.

For instance...my wife used to regularly make divorce threats...they used to "hook" me.  Once I stopped being hooked...the threats stopped (hmmm...there is power in that knowledge)

Oddly enough...my wife made a threat in the middle of the night a few months ago.  I went back to sleep and slept ok knowing that

1.  I can't stop her..and trying is unhealthy
2.  She doesn't want to "loose" me
3.  She was very emotional...she doesn't handle emotions well..and will be a different person when she gets back to baseline.

So..why stay up and worry?

Guess what..she never mentioned it again.

Why am I telling you this? 

Well..I realize you are religious guy.  So your vows are likely very important to you. It's also likely that there are lots of relationship skills you need to work on (regardless of status of your marriage).

So...why not face what's in your relationship and do what YOU can do.  See how things do or don't change and evaluate life in 6 months. 

Listen...if she wants a divorce..she doesn't have to involve you?  So...her involving you is not really about divorce...is it?

Last...I don't want you to lie, but is "of course I want to be with you" a lie? 

No need to define "you".  (old you versus new you).  She'll twist it anyway...so why explain it?

Hmm.."explain"...isn't that part of JADE?

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

Hey FF, thanks for your reply...just checking you've posted on the right thread?

I think you might have me mixed up with someone else as I'm not a guy, I'm not married and I'm an atheist!  

[formflier]

Sorry!  No coffee yet this morning.

My main point is do you want to leave your relationship based on what you have experienced...or what you "fear" you will experience.

I'll add to this that what you experience in a r/s like this when you are applying tools properly is likely very different than what you experience up to this point.  There is only 1 way to find out.

All that being said...there is nothing wrong when making a decision to try something different in your relationship or end it (for whatever reason)

All the rest of what I said (I did read over it again!    ) still applies.  She doesn't have to involve you to end the r/s.  So...her involvement of you is likely about something else (do you get that point?)  What do you think it's about if you take that point of view?

Best,

FF

[G1B8oN]

What she *says* is that it's because she needs to know so that she can decide whether or not she's moving to a new city with me and doing a Master's degree or whether she needs to get a job.

I think it's partly that she's feeling rejected and abandoned and out of control. I think this was set up as a "test" to prove that I love her enough to want to stay in the relationship.

I'm extra cautious to resist my urge to go back to this relationship due to my history, so yes, it's due to fear from past events but if we don't look back we don't learn and as much as I don't know exactly what the future holds, I can make some extrapolations...

My mum used to try and break up with my dad quite often. He'd beg for her to take him back. It would be OK for a bit then fall apart again and child me would have to deal with two crying, suicidal parents and a younger brother who I tried to protect. I took this dynamic into my first major relationship. She'd try to break it off, I'd beg for us to try again...rinse and repeat. With hindsight we should have ended things about 2 or 3 years in but because of my actions it went on for 8 years instead. I went through a stage of being angry at myself and feeling guilty for this but I've come to realise I was doing it because I thought that's relationships worked, that I was heroically saving our relationship but of course I wasn't.

I don't want to repeat that past error though. I need to be honest with myself about what I want from a partner and I'm beginning to think that as much as I love her, an untreated BPD can't provide that.

I'm sick of feeling like my relationship is on a knife-edge, I'm sick of not being able to share my honest thoughts about things without being invalidated. I'm sick of her siding with everyone else but me.

I'm someone who's very tuned in to the emotions of others (INFJ) and I don't want to feel like my relationship is so one-sided any more. I'm scared of her, I'm scared of being hurt any more because I think she's pushed me so far that I can barely feel anything any more. I dread birthdays etc. because I know she'll ruin them one way or the other, I can't enjoy the good times because I know the bad times are on their way.                                

[babyducks]

Hi G1,

I've been following along with your posts and thought I would chime in.

today is the day I said I'd need my decision by.
 
 I can't be expected to wait for you to make your mind up about me whilst I hurt for wanting you every day.

 You either want to be with me or you don't.

 the precedent you've set by avoiding me and sleeping downstairs has already destroyed me

 I'm sorry you couldn't see what we could have been and done something for me for a change.  

this is a message very heavy with BPD perspective.     people with BPD process life and the events of life in some very predictable ways.    this is that kind of message.   There is the not subtle struggle for power and control.   who has control and power in the relationship dynamic?   for a person with BPD there is only one answer to that.     there is guilt... there is manipulation,... there is obligation.    this is a strong battle in the needs entitlement war that a relationship with a BPD person often is.

a while ago I read a book by W. Brad Johnson PhD titled 'Crazy Love'.    Johnson makes three points :

• Borderlines are impulsive in ways that are usually self destructive.
• Because Borderlines are constantly working to avoid feelings of emptiness and boredom they will often stir things up emotionally in relationships to experience something other than isolation themselves.
• The borderline personality is programmed to sabotage relationships, to drive partners away, and to paradoxically be most at home when suffering from yet another perceived abandonment - even when the borderline partner worked hard (often unconnsciously) to arrange this outcome.

I used to say my Ex did not self harm.   but she did.    she used me as the tool or weapon to injure herself.   she was so completely sure she was unlovable she would manufacture that certainty.

my Ex often told me 'this relationship is over'... and then give me a reason why that quite honestly... made absolutely no sense.    once it was because I was too close and emotionally involved with my family and that hurt her.     Wait.    What?    so yes... she was feeling emotionally empty, unloved and unlovable so for her, in her head it became a contest.     it became 'ducks can only love me, no one else

and yes, my Ex was programmed to sabotage relationships.    it took me a long time to see it.   and she was indeed most comfortable when she was destroying a relationship.  it is, after all, a mental illness.

It's always only about her feelings and her needs.

personality disorders exist on a spectrum.    you know her best.  you are the best judge of where she is on the spectrum.   but yes... in one sense it is always only about her feelings and needs.   it is a needs entitlement war.    to have her needs not be met, means she ceases to exist, and her fractured personality finds that to be life threatening.    

my two cents
'ducks

[G1B8oN]

Thanks BD, your perspective is really valuable.

I know that a lot of her pushing me away is an exercise in self harm. Unfortunately however, her self harm also harms me, greatly.

I suppose one thing I've been asking myself is, can I make the changes in myself that are needed to insulate myself from the hurt I feel when she self-harms herself by hurting "me" or "us"?

I know that one thing I yearn for is validation. Last month at work we were discussing Brexit and someone said they agreed with me and I burst into tears. I felt such shock and relief at that feeling of validation that I cried for about 20 minutes.

I'm at my wits end. I think for me, I need to heal my wounds in order to be able to then make the changes needed for the relationship. One thing I need is more socialisation, I need more friends, I only have 2 left and they live hours away. My uBPDgf will fight me tooth and nail from making friends. She also doesn't seem to understand why it's not appropriate or necessary for me to invite her every time I do see friends or pop to the pub for an hour after work. I don't think I'm in a place emotionally where I can fight that battle but I don't see my emotional state improving without that change. It's like a catch-22 situation!

I think what I told my partner before still needs to stand. I need some time separated. What she does with that time is up to her. I will probably mull over this decision over the next week and then, well, I'm the sort that once I make a decision, I stick by it.

[G1B8oN]

For instance...my wife used to regularly make divorce threats...they used to "hook" me.  Once I stopped being hooked...the threats stopped (hmmm...there is power in that knowledge)

Oddly enough...my wife made a threat in the middle of the night a few months ago.  I went back to sleep and slept ok knowing that

1.  I can't stop her..and trying is unhealthy
2.  She doesn't want to "loose" me
3.  She was very emotional...she doesn't handle emotions well..and will be a different person when she gets back to baseline.

So..why stay up and worry?

Guess what..she never mentioned it again. 

Hey FF, I've been thinking about what you said here in a number of ways.

One thing that occurs to me is that I haven't been giving much reaction when she breaks up or threatens it. She doesn't tend to just forget about it or not mention it though like your wife in the example. In fact, the last time, she continued us being broken up for two months with an agonising 2.5 weeks of silent treatment in there too...do you think I was witnessing an extinction burst?

The other thought about your point is yes, I totally agree that the less fuel I give to her negative behaviours the more infrequent they become. Unfortunately she seems very adept at then moving on to new, exciting ways of hurting me instead. It's like trying to build a house of cards during an earthquake.

[babyducks]

I understand your points G1.

I absolutely agree,... my Ex self harming patterns, harmed me.   in all sorts of ways big and small but primarily emotionally.    I too have some pretty high validation needs.   that is why I was attracted to my Ex to begin with.    the early idealization phase where everything I said and did was met with rapt adoration was like nirvana.

somewhere on this website it says this:

If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

well that's a lot to dig through but it does sum things up nicely.   a lot of the changes that could be made to help insulate you from feelings of hurt, require self care self care self care.    most of us here end up in these relationships because we are more than willing to put our needs second, all the time.   

you've said you are exhausted.     emotionally spent.    and scared of her and the whirlwind that comes with her.    I understand.   a while ago I was there too.   it took me some time to climb up out of that hole.   I managed it and you will too.

It sounds like you have increased the amount of self care you are doing and that's very good.      I know you are at your wits end.   anybody would be.    allow the self care you are doing to bear some fruit.    continue to take care of your sleep needs.   make sure you are eating.   something nutritionally dense would be good.   give yourself time for your battery to recharge.     try not to ruminate and figure everything out at once.   

what are your plans for today?   are you safe where you are?   is she still packing?   

'ducks

[babyducks]

She doesn't tend to just forget about it or not mention it though like your wife in the example. In fact, the last time, she continued us being broken up for two months with an agonising 2.5 weeks of silent treatment in there too...do you think I was witnessing an extinction burst?

It could have been an extinction burst but only if the behavior began to decline in frequency after the burst.   from what you have described it doesn't sound like that happened?   Yes?   No?

so here is another clip from this site:

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

I know that's a long quote.     I am wondering how much of your partner you see in that.    and what's the realistic expectation for how the future of the relationship could be.   

when people first come here to this site, the normal suggestion is to end the immediate cycle of conflict.   most people arrive here in crisis of some kind.   there has been a long drawn out pattern of conflict.  both sides are entrenched and overwhelmed.    the first suggestion is to break the cycle of conflict and then address the maladaptive coping traits that fueled the conflict.    make sense?

it's kind of like what you are already doing,...   stop the conflict,.. take some time for feelings to cool... assess and act as things become apparent.   

what do you think?

'ducks

[G1B8oN]

Aaaand I'm crying again  

Thanks for your kind words.they really, really mean a lot right now.

She's gone out drinking, I think probably to the home of her cocaine-snorting paedophile friends whom she used to sleep with when she was a young teen so I can see me needing to call the police later on if I can't confirm she's safe. She's gone there because she knows it upsets me.

I'm just spending time with the cat, trying to eat healthy and relax with a book (though it is one on BPD   )

I keep getting the urge to call my mum but I know that would be a terrible mistake as she would only invalidate me further so I'm resisting that urge as I'm looking for something she isn't capable of providing. I wonder if it would be so important for me to feel validation from my partner if it was possible for me to get it from my close family...

The good news is that my brother will back from holiday today so I'm going to arrange a meet-up this week I think.

[G1B8oN]

I don't think I gave her chance to break up with me again after that one because I ended the relationship myself because I could see things going downhill fast and I couldn't take it. That's what led to her recent suicide attempt and the situation I'm in now.

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships

I see a full score for point 1,  2 and 4...

3. is probably like her in some ways but not in others. She can be extremely loyal to her family (to a fault imho) but when I view her friendships they appear quite transactional to me.

Realistically these aren't the ingredients of a healthy relationship at all. It's also extremely unrealistic to expect any of these things to change any time soon, if at all.

What's really scary is when I look at them in context of myself (in the past I was many more of these, especially in my first relationship).

1. Low frustration tolerance, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy (though this happens in my head only these days and I talk myself out of it)


4. Perfectionistic and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way (I don't refuse but to my eternal shame have been known to pout).

[babyducks]

there is a lot to sort through here...    lots of moving parts.   

can I check that I understand the history here correctly?    what I took away from your posts is that you have had a 2.5 year relationship with 'many many break ups'.   your partner abuses alcohol and when very stressed class A drugs.    she has made suicidal gestures, the latest being about 2 weeks ago.

did I get that right?

if I am mostly in the ball park, I would say the number one priority is safety.   your safety.   her safety.   it's important to have a safety plan even if you never need to use it.   if she returns from being out drinking with her cocaine-snorting paedophile friends, how comfortable are you that things won't escalate?    do you have a go bag packed and placed some where if you need to exit in a hurry?   have your credit cards and important papers placed some placed she can't find and destroy them?   I know you are probably thinking that it isn't necessary to worry about this.    trust me.  none of us ever thought we would need to have a safety plan and most of us ended up with one.

I would suggest that the number two priority is for you to get on stable footing so you are not making pressured emotional decisions.    Agree?   

so safety for you, her and the cat.
and dialing down the emotional volatility.

how does that sound?

[G1B8oN]

Yes, that's right except that her last suicide attempt was a week ago today.

Things may escalate in that she may self harm or make another attempt on her life. This is probably unlikely as she gets so blind drunk after these sessions that she simply passes out in bed (or somewhere nearby) so it'll be recovery position and maybe call 999 tonight as she drinks heavily and does coke to sober up and then repeats this all night which is very, very dangerous.

If she doesn't come home or respond to my attempts of contact by about midnight tonight I'll also call the police for a welfare check on her.

All my important paperwork has been at my mums for a few weeks. I always have an overnight bag in the car too.

The cat is a master of finding hiding places when she rages...I think she can disappear into thin air!

I absolutely agree that things need to get on a more stable emotional footing. Unfortunately from my experience, she's gonna give me the cold shoulder for a while, act like she's absolutely fabulous and is so, so happy aaand then have a massive emotional meltdown of some description.

In the meantime, I'm gonna see about going on a little holiday on my own. I'm pretty skint but reckon I could stretch to a few nights camping in Cornwall or something (cue massive down-turn in the weather...)

[Enabler]

Morning, how did things pan out last night?

I've been thinking about your decision and thinking how I can relate personal experience to it. I have been with my W for almost 22 years, first 3 years we were at university, she oscillated hourly between being awesome, very clingy-needy-self harmy-depressed-energysapping-emotional vampire and then final enraged... Had I have known what I know no then (and this is difficult because I have 3 wonderful kids from the relationship), would I have walked away then and there... pre kids... pre-marriage... pre-joint assets? I guess the question I would be asking myself then would have been would my life be better on my own or with someone else, or with my W?

A relationship should be a symbiotic relationship, the flourishing or the union should be greater than the sum of the parts. You GF seems to do very well out of the relationship... not least because she has a chauffeur that waits patiently outside her place of work (one small example), but how does it work for you? What do you get out of it that's greater than you'd achieve on your own? My guess is you're used to sacrificing yourself in a co-dependant way, but have you ever thought you deserve better? You really really do. You deserve to consume the benefits of your own productivity AND a share of the economies of scale of being in a couple... the maths goes something a little like this :

Utopia

Person A on their own - 10 units of flourishing
Person B on their own - 8 units of flourishing
Person A & B together (50% symbiotic benefit) - (18x150%) = 27 units of flourishing (Average 13.5 units of flourishing each).

BPD

Person A on their own - 10 units of flourishing
Person B on their own - 2 units of flourishing
Person A & B together - (12x150%) = 18 units of flourishing (Average is 9, but note Person A sacrifices 1 unit of flourishing to person B, Person B receives a 7 unit benefit... the only gainer is person B)

Note that in both examples there is not equality with regards to each persons ability to produce flourishing or in economics terms 'utility'. The couple do not have to be equal to start with to produce a net benefit for all parties. However, when someone is soo far below the other, the net effect is that they drag you down. Maybe it's not all the time, maybe it could go in cycles and maybe the highs are super super high and worthwhile. But if net net, you're having your life force drained from you then I think you need to consider your future. I don't know how the maths works for you, this isn't just about time, money, effort... utility includes everything from general happiness, intellectual stimulation, sex, feelings of achievement because she's so smoking hot, shared interests... it includes everything... it also includes the negative impacts of worrying about whether or not she's dead in a ditch  .

It's not wrong to think about how the maths works FOR YOU AND ONLY YOU. She is not your child, you don't have an overarching moral responsibility for her welfare. What flourishing do you have to offer someone else?

 Enabler

[G1B8oN]

Good morning Enabler.

Things were pretty OK yesterday, she was home by 10pm and had been out with a different friend group. She was drunk, and drinking but is very much in the "I'm fine, absolutely FINE in fact I'm HAPPY really HAPPY" (see how wide my eyes are!) phase as I expected.

Thanks very much for your reply. I love the analogy and what you say makes perfect sense.

I think part of my decision-making process is very much what you describe. Early on in the relationship I was extremely codependent and it's as I'm exiting the fog of codependency these are exactly the sort of questions I'm asking myself. Questioning the underlying motives for my feelings has been of great value.

It's more than clear to me that my relationship is greatly unequal. There are ways this could improve but there are ways in which I expect no improvement...probably ever. It's the areas where I expect no improvement (empathy, validation, true honestly in communication) that I have to decide whether I can live without.

When I try and look at the relationship with things like a sense of obligation for her care, finance and guilt removed from the equation, it is clear to me that in the long run I would be much happier alone or with someone else. If I can manage to stay strong in the short term, which is going to be difficult because I'm in no way detached and I just can't seem to stop giving the relationship second chances I do stand to be happier in the future.

I guess my priority for now is to make sure I'm convinced this is the right decision for me and then stick by it. In the medium-long term I need to continue doing the work required to understand and unravel why I am so codependent and why I seem to keep getting into unhealthy relationships with partners that have serious MH problems.

[Enabler]

One thing to bare in mind, despite her inferring a decision from you about the relationship being over... I doubt she's going to move out or move on officially. You may well have to push that forwards if that's what you want.

Although it's been easy for me to see what my W doesn't bring to the party i.e. where I feel a drain, I also have to consider why I have been with her for so long and what it was that she DOES bring to the party... what do I get from her that I can't provide for myself?

Enabler 

[Cat Familiar]

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