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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Divorcing and need advice  (Read 462 times)
lonely38
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« on: July 15, 2019, 07:18:52 AM »

So for the second time in the last year I am filing for divorce. I tried it last fall. My bpd husband and I reconciled. For maybe 6 weeks things were better. And then everything has gone downhill quickly. He’s extremely bitter, angry, resentful.
Because he knows how it went before, he’s extremely paranoid and acting very bizarre including keeping a money market checkbook away from me.
One of my many concerns is that he will again turning into a raging crazy person during the process. Last time he refused to move out of the house during separation until I called police.
I’m meeting w attorney tomorrow to find out my rights as I do not want to move out if I can avoid it.
I’m open to all tips and advice from anyone who has experienced what will most likely be a contentious divorce,
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mart555
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2019, 07:40:54 AM »

Read the book "splitting" by Bill Eddy and cover your ass. Record everything. Keep track of everything.  It will likely be hell since you have no kids involved. When kids are involved, it's worse.

Rage is one aspect, but this one usually comes and goes.  I find the worse is their sense of entitlement coupled with the fact that you cannot reason with them so discussions and problem resolution go nowhere. 
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MeandThee29
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2019, 07:50:10 AM »

Most divorce lawyers have some experience with high conflict individuals, but you want one who excels at it.

The time may come when the lawyer needs to take over all interactions. It's expensive, but needed. The low-cost, do-it-yourself approach likely won't work unless you are willing to experience more of the same.

It will cost much more than you think.
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 08:57:38 AM »

I ditto what's already been said. Read Eddy's SPLITTING. Record everything that happens. Everything. 

Work really hard at not letting your husband know you're upset--sad or angry. Try to be matter-of-fact.

And it will be absolute hell. It will take so  so so much longer than you think. Mine will be 2 years in August, and I'm still not divorced. In fact, no one was even negotiating with me until the beginning of July.

Unreasonable, nasty people. (Sorry to those of you who are trying to keep your relationships intact.)

Good luck. And post on this forum. That should help.

TMD
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 09:59:44 AM »

Work really hard at not letting your husband know you're upset--sad or angry. Try to be matter-of-fact.

View it as a legal transaction and deal with your pain elsewhere. Don't rant to your lawyer about the emotional side because that's not their job. You'll save money with them by just focusing on the legal.

Mine said they were going to treat me "well." The first draft agreement didn't reflect that and included some raging that didn't belong in a legal document. And more raging. My lawyer drew up a non-emotional settlement agreement, and I agreed to let him handle the negotiations.

You can view this as a sad end, but they may view it as a way to punish you and justify their low opinion of you. So be it. You can't do anything at this point to redeem yourself in their eyes.
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2019, 11:15:21 AM »

View it as a legal transaction and deal with your pain elsewhere. Don't rant to your lawyer about the emotional side because that's not their job. You'll save money with them by just focusing on the legal.

Mine said they were going to treat me "well." The first draft agreement didn't reflect that and included some raging that didn't belong in a legal document. And more raging. My lawyer drew up a non-emotional settlement agreement, and I agreed to let him handle the negotiations.

You can view this as a sad end, but they may view it as a way to punish you and justify their low opinion of you. So be it. You can't do anything at this point to redeem yourself in their eyes.

This is spot on.  

I actually had a pretty lousy lawyer (he started out great though) who tried to prod my STBXuBPDw by putting more inflammatory comments in some of our pleadings regarding her.  I actually had to call him and yell at him and demand he stop.

More fighting = more money for the lawyers.  that's the only outcome.

Throughout the process, my STBx was of course prodding me as well, making comments in texts that our kids said my place was unsanitary, that I drank too much, etc.  

I'd of course be concerned she was trying to set the stage for accusations in court, but I would remind myself to ignore the "editorials" and focus on facts, and keep all responses limited to the bare minimum of what needed to be communicated.

this nipped a lot of conflict in the bud.

It also helped at some point that my XW apparently got spooked by her legal bills, and started urging me to meet in person to work a settlement out.  I refused of course, but I think this kept her from trying to follow through on her allegations and fight for more possession & settlement money.

I may very well need to go back to court in the future, but my goal was not to try to address everything at once, and divorce with a settlment and possession schedule i could live with.
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2019, 12:57:36 AM »

You have a long term marriage.  Likely you will have substantial claims to the marital equity and perhaps support/alimony as well.  So you're in a good position there but it may take a longer time to resolve than your lawyer expects.  (Mine estimated 7-9 months but turned out to be nearly two years.)

Many lawyers claim they can handle a case but yours probably is not a case where mediation and settlement talks result in a settlement.  Possible but probably not.  There probably will have to be court hearings to declare a framework he must abide by as the different aspects are addressed.  First is separation and a support arrangement.  Then disclosure of assets (including money, retirement accounts, etc) and debts (including loans, liens, cards, etc).  Usually financial splits are the last to be resolved.

He may feel he is just protecting his money but if he's trying to hide it then that's a big No-No.  It has to be disclosed so there can be equitable splits.

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lonely38
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2019, 07:52:20 AM »

Thank you for the replies here.  My bpd husband is actually suggesting an in house separation but separating cash and money market between us.  I still work and he says I can keep my income for myself.  However, he will not pay for my personal expenses.  Not sure how far that goes but I am guessing that would be another way for him to control me. 

My fear is what I am hearing as far as a contentious divorce, etc.  I am 59 and I am not up for another 2 years of hell, etc.  I just wish there was another way out of this. And the fallout with children who seem to have no real empathy toward me with what has gone on leaves me fearful for more estrangement from them.

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mart555
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2019, 08:29:46 AM »

My fear is what I am hearing as far as a contentious divorce, etc.  I am 59 and I am not up for another 2 years of hell, etc.  I just wish there was another way out of this. And the fallout with children who seem to have no real empathy toward me with what has gone on leaves me fearful for more estrangement from them.

This one will be up to you to decide.  We can't help it.  But at 59, you still have quite a few years left!   Maybe try to do it progressively, with the in-house separation first and then you try to cut ties more and more.  I really don't know if it's the way to go however.
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 11:29:37 AM »

Hi Lonely38,

Based on my Partner's uBPDxw all I can say is what your husband suggests below is just in the moment because of how he is "feeling" in that moment.  Tomorrow he will "feel" differently and make a different suggestion and he will keep being a moving target doing what he wants when he wants, with you trying to keep up with his ever changing plans.  IMO you need to have court orders to make things stick and you need to focus on you and what you want, don't let him determine what your options are or what you will do.

Everyone is different but I would not do an "in house separation" what is the point of the exercise if you want to divorce? (It's a different story if you want to work on your marriage)  I had to live with my ex for a year during our divorce and after, because we had to wait to sell our home (during the housing bubble).  He wasn't BPD, he worked nights, I worked days so we saw each other minimally and it was still miserable.

My bpd husband is actually suggesting an in house separation but separating cash and money market between us.  I still work and he says I can keep my income for myself.  However, he will not pay for my personal expenses.  Not sure how far that goes but I am guessing that would be another way for him to control me.


My fear is what I am hearing as far as a contentious divorce, etc.  I am 59 and I am not up for another 2 years of hell, etc.

Yes, these divorces can be messy and difficult and can take 2 years or not.  Seems to me the choice is a possible 2 year divorce vs 25 more years of marriage.

I think you need to focus on you and what you want, not what your husband wants, or even what your kids want, keeping in mind what you want and what they want may not be mutually exclusive. I'm glad you are meeting with an attorney that's a great place to start.

Panda39
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GaGrl
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 11:45:02 AM »

Make sure you are seeing a therapist throughout the process. Work your emotions through with the therapist and this board -- not your children. You learned the first time that they have their own agenda, and it's not emotional support.I

If your lawyer indicates that an in-house separation is a first step in separating at least most of the finances, that could help you get past some of the financial settlement difficulties -- it would at least get some liquid assets in your name only.

In the case of a divorce, there would still be the house/real estate and retirement accounts to address.

He is retired -- do you think he is going to ask for spousal support? Are the retirement accounts (401k, IRA) equitable, or would be want a portion of your, or vice versa?
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2019, 08:59:37 AM »

Before, when I first filed,  he thought he was going to ask for alimony.  I saw my attorney yesterday and is telling me I no longer qualify for maintenance as my bpd husband retired last Sept.  However, I make a lot less than he ever did and can present a case to support that.

Our accounts are set up with a financial planner.  We have my 401K, his 401K, his stock options from his work.  Then we also have the normal retirement accounts, including annuity and money market. 

There is a long term care plan in his name and a life insurance policy in his name.  I am guessing we would just cash those out?

We also own rental properties and other investment properties so alot to divide.

I asked him to put in writing what he suggesting as far as who pays for what and will see how that goes.  My fear in this is that he gets to spend his money however he wants, which is our money currently.  If we split the money market account and the cash account, I feel I lose some protection from just splitting the assets now.

Thoughts on this?

Also, is anyone familiar with Colorado divorce laws?  If we separate and move toward divorce, if one of us moves out of the home, does that change our ability to keep the marital home after divorce in any way?

Thank you for the advice and the details here.  Greatly appreciated. 
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lonely38
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2019, 09:01:34 AM »

Also, can I enforce my rights to his social security income?  Anything else I need to be considering at this point?
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2019, 09:54:56 AM »

My immediate thought is that, with the way your finances are set up, you would be better off going ahead and filing for divorce, with a directive in the petition that financial transactions are frozen -- and make sure your financial advisor has a copy. (My husband is a financial advisor and has been in these situations before.)

The real estate investments will take some working through.

On the Social Security, I do know that your husband has no control over your qualification to draw on his SSA benefits. If he is drawing SSA, and if you have been married at least 10 years, when you reach 62 years old, you can draw either 50% of his benefit, or your earnings benefit -- whichever is higher -- and it does not reduce the amount he draws. you can't draw both. My husband's ex filed based on DH's SSA, as she did not work for much of their marriage, so 50% of DH's SSA benefit was more than the calculation on her earnings. DH had to do nothing -- she just had to show SSA proof of the marriage and divorce.

I suspect your husband wants to keep your financials intact and not "give up" wealth to you. His roommate suggestion allows this, but you wouldn't necessarily know what he was doing with the investments, unless you have a clear understanding with your financial advisor.

What are your leanings right now?
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lonely38
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 10:10:55 AM »

I have a good relationship with the financial advisor and emailed him again this am.  My biggest concern over this idea of dividing cash and money market, is how we each spend the money.

Attorney told me yesterday we can draw up a legal document if we elect to go this way.  Also, if I am beneficiary on any of the policies, can bpd husband make changes to this without my consent?

I have a strong feeling that I am going to finally need to proceed with divorce as I do not believe that the idea of separating in the home will change much in the way of dynamics between us.  He has gone too far in the last year and a half with his emotions and mental stability and I do not see him coming back in a healthy fashion.

He is extremely self focused, says I am controlling, that I have ruined our family, that he feels I have caused him to have low self esteem, etc.  This has been his thought process for approximately the last 15 months.

The sad part is that before that, we were doing well.  He was healthy as far as mentally and emotionally (although I definitely see borderline in his actions and thoughts throughout our marriage).  It's like he has truly gone off the deep end.
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2019, 03:25:02 PM »

My understanding is that - generally - when a divorce is filed then certain aspects of the current status must be handled in certain ways until the final decree.  For example, if you are on his prior employer's health insurance plan then once the divorce is filed he can't force you off.  Of course state rules and policies will vary, so be sure to ask your local professionals before making assumptions.  We encourage you to seek more than one lawyer's advice to be more confident you're not missing some important information or potential strategies.
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2019, 05:07:53 PM »

If the life insurance policy is for him, with you as beneficiary -- yes, he can make anyone he chooses as beneficiary. However, you can have a stipulation in the divorce settlement that he will carry $X in life insurance with you as beneficiary, and that would prevent him from changing it.
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2019, 07:25:09 PM »

Thank you, I am in touch with financial planner and will meet with him this week on details.  Appreciate the good tips and advice here.
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2019, 12:18:52 PM »

Thank you, I am in touch with financial planner and will meet with him this week on details.  Appreciate the good tips and advice here.

If your lawyer is financially savvy, they can also help with how things are to be divided legally. There is some play there and legal variations, but dividing what is called "the marital share" (i.e. only what was accumulated in marriage) approximately 50/50 avoids some areas of debate. Most couples do some compromising to reduce the number of legal instruments required to divide things. So you may mention that to the financial planner to see what you would approximately get from that division.

I'm in the same age range as you but can't support myself yet. And also no alimony. So the whole thing is a bit scary to me, but we'll see.
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2019, 03:29:18 PM »

Also, can I enforce my rights to his social security income?  Anything else I need to be considering at this point?

You retain your right to a percentage of his Social Security when you chose to file. It is paid from Social Security, not from his payment. His payment will remain the same. It will depend on when he files and how old you are though. You also still can get survivor benefits even if you are divorced. So nothing to deal with legally there. Even with periods of lower-paying work, I come out better if I file on my own record even if I file early at 62.

Just a few other things to think about. There are many things I like about my lawyer. He's very responsive and encouraging via email. Unless he's in court, he replies within a few hours. He's very polite in his correspondence and approach to everything, but he's firm. I need that. The "opposing counsel" is known for snark and inciting his clients, and I did NOT want that. Now having seen it for myself, I'm glad that I ruled that lawyer out. I could never work with someone like that. My lawyer is also cost-conscious. I do some of my best thinking via email, and he picked that up and encouraged me to email him my thoughts before we have a meeting to save time (and expense).
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lonely38
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2019, 05:46:12 AM »

Thank you for the tips.  Greatly appreciated.
My husband is actually suggesting we live separately in our home as friends.  He is suggesting we split our cash and our money market in half.  He is also suggesting we split equally the income we receive from rental properties.

He is acting in a way that I would consider to be very paranoid and irrational.
He says I have controlled him with money.  I asked him how I did that.  He says I got upset with him when he moved money without telling me to our financial planner.
Last weekend, we had received a tax refund check and I put in my desk area to take to the bank. We also had company at the same which was bad timing as he was yelling at me in every room that the company was not in.  He was livid with me and said I stole the check?  He then proceeded to go through my purse and took all my cash, credit cards and all of the checks.  When I handed him the refund check, he gave me back the checks with the exception of one more box of checks and our money market checkbook.  I still do not know where that is.

I am meeting with financial planner today and am thinking perhaps I need to let him know what is going on.  Is this appropriate?  Or should I say we lost the checkbook and need to cancel the checks?

In an email last night he is outlining the way to separate and he still says we can travel together?  and that we can keep couple friends? and he wants me to not share with our children our circumstances.  He wants to keep up this charade with our children, friends, etc. but I am not sure why.

I keep coming  back to the fact that he hates abandonment.  He has been sleeping regularly in the chaise lounge next to our bed.  Strange behavior for someone who seems to loathe me so much. He has said in the separation plans that he will sleep in the basement.  Why is he not doing this now?

Is this normal borderline behavior?  Or could there be more?  I know since retiring and him not making money, he is more worried about money.  However, he says this is about control and that 'he needs some of his own money?'

I am thinking this is a really big warning sign to make my exit, which is incredibly painful after 40 years.  

He is planning on surgery this fall (he has always been fixated on his body and what to do next medically and I am guessing he has had 20 surgeries or more since we have been married).  I mentioned to him last night that if we separate, then that would mean I would not care for him.  He actually seemed surprised by that said don't friends take care of each other?  I am feeling used and abused.



I believe he
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2019, 08:09:05 AM »

My ex does not have a mental illness.  When we separated, he was genuinely shocked that I was no longer going to act as his social secretary or his babysitter.    He thought he could call me anytime he was busy and drop the kids off, or that I would remind him of his grandmother's birthday, or things like that.  He even thought I would continue to arrange social events for him to see his friends. For MONTHS he thought complained that I wasn't acting like I was supposed to in the divorce.

So it does not surprise me at all that someone with a mental illness would take that 10 steps further down the path of crazymaking.

He wants to keep the part that he values and dump the other part.  I had to keep very strong boundaries to finally convince my ex that his utopia wasn't going to happen.

However, your husband is also getting to that age where there could be neurological issues starting to show.  Have you seen any signs of early-stage dementia?  Paranoia can often be one of those as well. 
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lonely38
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2019, 08:36:36 AM »

Alot of his paranoia has been  and is around money, especially with retirement.  I cannot get access to our chase credit card info on line.  Just tried and because it is in my husband's social security #, I have to have access through him?  Anyway, I did call and listened to the latest transactions to have an idea of what is going on.

Going to financial planner today.  Determined to be strong and discerning through this process.
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2019, 09:51:36 AM »

Alot of his paranoia has been  and is around money, especially with retirement.  I cannot get access to our chase credit card info on line.  Just tried and because it is in my husband's social security #, I have to have access through him?  Anyway, I did call and listened to the latest transactions to have an idea of what is going on.

Going to financial planner today.  Determined to be strong and discerning through this process.

It's going to be painful. It just is. Get a lawyer you trust and work with. Realize that it is only a chapter and won't always be like this.

It took me a bit to get that I had to just focus on myself. Of course he's hurt and upset, but he has a part in it all and is responsible for dealing with that, not blaming you for his feelings. He can rage and try to get at your via his lawyer, but step back and let the legal process run its course. I've freaked out a couple of times with my lawyer, and I'm glad that he is steady and calm. I've learned to put my trust in his wisdom and experience versus what gets thrown at me in this process.

Be very careful about dividing things and agreeing to things without legal representation. I made some mistakes that way because I was uninformed and too trusting.
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2019, 03:33:23 PM »

My husband is actually suggesting we live separately in our home as friends.  He is suggesting we split our cash and our money market in half.  He is also suggesting we split equally the income we receive from rental properties.

Quite frankly, Divorcing a person with acting-out PD such as Borderline, Narcissistic, etc requires you to cut all strings possible.  This concept of "let's be friends" or "we can still live together" almost surely won't work.  The perceptions and moods are just too volatile and unpredictable.  If you keep the doors to a relationship open then he will behave virtually as he did in the past.  Since a divorce is to end past problems, then you'd be smart to have it End.  Right now with a looming divorce you may choose to be smart and trigger him as little as possible, relationship-wise, while you get what terms you need from the divorce.

You might want to have general responses such as, "Let's get through this (divorce) and then we'll see what's possible."  Then once you have a final decree in hand you can be firm and definite that "it's over".

As for Social Security, there are a variety of options.  (Warning, you don't have to share them or spell them out to your stbEx - typically the less information shared is the best approach.  Too often sharing information and strategies ends up being used against you.)  As a spouse married for longer than 10 years you can use your own SS or his SS.  The SSA won't even share with him what you're doing for retirement.  If you need SS sooner and his work history allows higher SS, you may choose to retire with your own SS and years later switch to get spouse's SS from his SS work history.  A financial planner ought to know how to evaluate the various scenarios.
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2019, 05:03:43 PM »

Getting access to all account info...

Start a spreadsheet listing all account info. Anything your financial advisor is managing should be in both names, and you should be able to get access.

On the checks and Money Market, he is sounding paranoid.  Is it on the table that you know he withheld those items? If he is trying to conceal it, just report the check numbers as lost. Where is the Money Market, and is it in both names? If in both names, go to the financial institution and get duplicate info and instruments. The checking and MMA value need to go in the spreadsheet.

On credit cards, list whether each card is in his name, your name, both names as joint accountholders, and if one of you is an authorized signed on an account. If an account is joint, you can set up your own access to the account -- they will use your SSN for your access. If you are an authorized signer and not an accountholder, that may be why it has to be accessed through his SSN -- he will need to provide account info during financial discovery. You'll eventually need to get your name off all accounts on which you are authorized but not an accountholder. Find out what needs to happen in your state on joint credit cards.
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