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Author Topic: She won by pulling me into the mud  (Read 416 times)
PeaceMom
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« on: July 16, 2019, 10:24:38 PM »

So I picked up DD19 ubpd from work tonight because she had a huge carwreck last Thursday so no car.

 It’s late, I’m tired and she asked if I could drive her 40 miles away to her new BF’s house bc she “wants to get away from us and her house where she always wants to kill herself”. I shakily said “no, I’m sorry I can’t and no one else can tonight either”.

We she started cussing me out saying she tells everyone she meets that we emotionally abused here, we’ve never been here for here, we are incredibly stupid and that I, her mom, is a raving bi***. And that she will be sure to put all that in her suicide note one day bc everything in her life that’s bad is our fault. Oh and we never should have adopted her...

This was all at close range in the car, in my ear. I hollered back at her and brought up several irrelevant things and told her she should probably move out. I’m exhausted and see that she dragged me into the mud wrestle pit. I reacted to her yelling, cursing me and threats almost as bad as a pwBPD, I know all about self care and my cup was empty. Her reactions when she doesn’t get what she thinks she must have are horrific.

She just told me she reported her new store manager to the out of state corporate office in hopes that they will fire her bc she made my DD feel less than at work. Wow-serious retaliation here.

I’m quite worn down. I told her she is an adult and we are allowing here to live here. I guess we need to document her false accusations of abuse, but how? I recall several times we were clobbered by her in her teen years. None of this was reported... so much for my learning new compassion for her...Not today
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 10:57:54 PM »


We she started cussing me out saying she tells everyone she meets that we emotionally abused here, we’ve never been here for here, we are incredibly stupid and that I, her mom, is a raving bi***. And that she will be sure to put all that in her suicide note one day bc everything in her life that’s bad is our fault. Oh and we never should have adopted her...

This was all at close range in the car, in my ear. I hollered back at her and brought up several irrelevant things and told her she should probably move out. I’m exhausted and see that she dragged me into the mud wrestle pit. I reacted to her yelling, cursing me and threats almost as bad as a pwBPD, I know all about self care and my cup was empty. Her reactions when she doesn’t get what she thinks she must have are horrific.

I’m quite worn down. I told her she is an adult and we are allowing here to live here. I guess we need to document her false accusations of abuse, but how? I recall several times we were clobbered by her in her teen years. None of this was reported... so much for my learning new compassion for her...Not today

This reminds me of an incident I had with my 16DD about six months ago, I may have posted here afterwards. Just too many months of lying, false distorted memories, calls from pissed off teachers, drug use, etc, etc, etc. I'm usually able to keep my emotions in check, but I totally lost it, and screamed at her all the way home from an interview with the county for a mental health screening.

That was totally out of character for me. I called a friend of mine later that evening who is a school psychologist who has known us for quite a few years. Her reaction was something like "Oh really? I was wondering how long you could keep it together under the circumstances".

Caregivers are people too. We are not superhuman and never will be.

If you feel the need to protect yourself, start keeping a journal of incidents, things said, etc.

And don't forget to take care of yourself.
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2019, 02:43:09 AM »

You are only human,  you love your daughter and her words hurt you...and sometimes we lose it.   Just think of the many more times you didn't lose it.  Us parents are under such stress with our BPDkids I'm amazed at how strong we all are given the circumstances.   

Sending you a (((hug))) 
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FaithHopeLove
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2019, 06:30:02 AM »

Like the others have said, you are human. I sometimes say things to my son that I regret. You are right. It happens when our own cups are empty. Do you have plans to fill yours back up?
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PeaceMom
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2019, 07:00:57 AM »

I woke up feeling like I’d been hit by a train. My H is very upset about the things she saying about abuse. If she is in true retaliation maybe mode there is no stopping her. I spoke to her again last night and told her that if she doesn’t feel supported and safe here she is 19 1/2 and can move out. We are not holding her against her will.

We feel vulnerable against her threats to seek justice. We’ve never called police on her for raging, verbally assaulting us, a few significant physical altercations -every morning was a battle getting her up and to school. I had to physically stand her up and dress her until she was in 7 th grade. Sometimes she flop on the floor and we’d have to physically lift her up -she’d was usually very resistant.  She kicking me hard, slamming my arm in door. This was years ago when I had no support and maybe should have just let her not go to school. This was a daily battle. She’s talking about that time period as abuse.

I need advice here. Do I go voluntarily give this information to a professional? Who? When the winds of vindictiveness and retribution change and she feels that, she absolutely will take action.  She said she has no friends and no where to go and if we kick her out she’ll be homeless and likely to get taped or sex trafficked. All this discussion while she’s lying in her bed in her huge en-suite bedroom-tv, phone, etc (like a princess) . Feeling like I’m being held prisoner in my home.

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MomSA
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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2019, 07:35:11 AM »

Oh PeaceMom, sending you a big hug.

My initial response would be to document everything. Start from your earliest memories and write them down. Then have it certified as an affidavit.

I know when my daughter is not emotionally regulated she will throw vile abuse at us and all sorts of accusations. I know this is easier said than done, but don't take it personally. Its the disorder talking.
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2019, 08:34:15 AM »

Yeah.  I relate.

I can't tell you how many times I lost it while arguing with my DD when she was in the throes of BPD.

Don't neat yourself up too badly, it happens, and you're human.

As for the advice portion:  make sure you tell your therapist and that they document it - it can be used in the future in a court case, if needed ( hopefully not).

It looks like your daughter is in complete victim mode, where everyone and everything in the world is out to get her and persecute her.  It's a hallmark of the disease.

She also swings a big bat with the suicide note threat.  It's an unfair bat to swing, in that she is using your clear love for her as a weapon, hoping to get the result she wanted.

Keep this in mind, BPDers are MASTER MANIPULATORS. They are kings and queens of the manipulation world.  Example:  Your DD threatened to kill herself (tangentally, of course.  The Suicide Note comment was the reference) because you wouldn't drive her 40 miles one way so she could get what she wanted (seeing her BF), AFTER she insulted you and your DH (get away from you and your house).

BPD'ers don't see it that way.  To them and their completely self-centered viewpoint, they deserve whatever they ask for, no matter the cost to others, then they react with insults, threats, and sometimes violence when they don't get their way. 
It appears to my eye that that is what happened to you. 

It's only human to react the way you did.

You're not alone.

-jyw
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2019, 09:42:05 AM »

Hey thanks guys. Unfortunately, the documentation out in the world is nill. I’m not sure why but I never thought to share or tell about specific abuses to anyone. We’ve never been questioned by anyone about her being abused. My brain is mush right now so I may need ya’ll to break this down for me a bit more.

I’m looking for a new therapist bc my old one never believed my kid had BPD and continually taught me tough love and swift consequences (which we all know don’t work). So, here goes:
Step 1: get a counselor that accepts my kid has BPD and can help me as caretaker.
Step 2: Do a sworn lifetime event time table based on my memory and have it notarized (H do his own)
Step 3: start a daily journal of her coming, going, threats, violation of home rules. (I’ve never done this bc it’s so painful -I want to let it go and move forward w/a plan-I detest thinking back over pain and dysfunction-It hurts me deeply)
Step 4: possibly give her some type of ultimatum-I have very little control here bc I truly don’t think we’d kick her out. We’d have to do a legal eviction proceeding here in Texas.
Step 5: pray like crazy that H doesn’t have a heart attack at work. He feels terribly victimized by her threats today.
Step 6: I’ve read about a letter of apology for being invalidating to our swan when we were a family of ducks, but feel this may pour gas on her fire-so maybe this is not the thing to do.

Per the Dr. Manning book, if their whole childhood felt invalidating bc the didn’t experience “goodness of fit” in the family, then every day would constitute Abuse in their minds-how does the legal system distinguish real and imagined abuse?

I appreciate this group and ANY thoughts you can share!
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MomSA
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2019, 09:47:43 AM »

Step 1: get a counselor that accepts my kid has BPD and can help me as caretaker.
Step 2: Do a sworn lifetime event time table based on my memory and have it notarized (H do his own)
Step 3: start a daily journal of her coming, going, threats, violation of home rules. (I’ve never done this bc it’s so painful -I want to let it go and move forward w/a plan-I detest thinking back over pain and dysfunction-It hurts me deeply)
Step 4: possibly give her some type of ultimatum-I have very little control here bc I truly don’t think we’d kick her out. We’d have to do a legal eviction proceeding here in Texas.
Step 5: pray like crazy that H doesn’t have a heart attack at work. He feels terribly victimized by her threats today.
Step 6: I’ve read about a letter of apology for being invalidating to our swan when we were a family of ducks, but feel this may pour gas on her fire-so maybe this is not the thing to do.
I would leave out #6 but the rest is good game plan. I would walk carefully with #4 for me to do that I would have had to accept the logical final worst outcome of that if she were homeless. And only when I had accepted that would I give her an ultimatum.


Per the Dr. Manning book, if their whole childhood felt invalidating bc the didn’t experience “goodness of fit” in the family, then every day would constitute Abuse in their minds...
Oh my, this hit me in my gut.
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PeaceMom
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2019, 09:57:07 AM »

MomSA,
You are right about #6. That’s likely done with the support of a counselor and a ton of finesse. I’m sure parents have had that backfire horribly. #4 would have to be out last resort for sure (the legal eviction), but what the heck can I do in the meantime?
Does selfcare, SET DEARMAN and not invalidating her really change much? Dr Manning said she worked for years w/this population and got nowhere until she started DBT.

I actually think DD would go back to therapy but we are short on Behavioral Tech certified DBT therapists-they are about an hour away and require 2 x a week for a year.

And yes, heavy heavy stuff about our Swan living a life of perceived abuse due to not being validated for her “on fire” emotions. I hate this realization.
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2019, 10:02:28 AM »

Peacemom, I am not qualified as anything but a mother who raised a child very similar to the one you're describing.  I can only share what I did and am doing....my impressions.
First, if she wants to go to the new BFs house, I'd do it....one way......
This may be "unhelpful" advice to some here, but I had to get my abusive child out of the house for me, because while she has BPD and is not well, she wasn't willing to do any of the things I needed her to do for us to live together successfully, and these were her choices.  I wanted her to see a psychiatrist and seriously see a therapist, at least weekly, and she refused (felt it was me who needed to do this, because I was "x" and "x" and "x" and on and on.  Yet, I was the one working while she stood behind me raging and tearing my house up....I was the one providing for all of us.....and the things I was asking of her were fair and reasonable.  I got to the point where I could barely function through the chaos, and she was unwilling to do anything to help us all.  She wanted to sleep till noon, get up, watch movies and color pages and eat the best foods in our cabinets, and cook, and leave dirty dishes laying around and on and on, and it was a non functioning situation for my husband and me. Mine also stole my stuff and sold it on the side, and used recreational pot, even if I asked her not to do that at my home.  Then, if I said anything about any of the above, she ranted for hours, refused to allow me to close my door to her so that I could work.....and got physical with me, or at least destroyed things in my home since the police told her it was her house, too, and she learned she could do that.  
I am unwilling to live like that.  
If my BPD daughter wants a "safe place" then she has to meet me and follow my house rules, which are fair and reasonable.  If she's unable to do that because I ask, then she is the one who needs a dr. or set of dr's to ensure we can live a reasonable existence.

I do not feel that all BPD cases are the same, and there are those, like my daughter, which make living together an impossibility....or an impossibility unless and until other things, like a therapist, are implemented.  I come here every day and read, learn, and am reading and learning elsewhere. While we are NC right now (for all intensive purposes), I am still working on me, and the relationship....BUT....I will not provide a roof that includes my day to day existence, if us being under it has to include some of the mess I've described here, and that you describe.
That is just me.

I used to wonder who all those homeless people were.  Now I think I know.  I can tell you that your daughter doesn't have to be a sex trafficker.  In our area, there are plenty of halfway houses or shelters where she can contribute, follow house rules, and have a roof and hot meals.  Its her choice to participate there.  She can (and I suspect will) if she has no other options.  That's the premise I put out there for my 20yr old.  My child is with her BF, and the two of them are struggling to put together a life together.  We asked her to stop living with the BFs and not functioning (not working, not working on her life and her needs, focus on herself, get a Dr. etc)....she chooses to do this instead, and we are not condemning it, but we aren't funding it, either. ....simply put, we cant.  At some point she has to put together a life that works and where she is able to sustain, and if she can't do that, then she has to work with us to help her do what she can.
Until she is willing to cooperate with us, she needs to do her on her own, and with my love, but without my resources....I need those for my own existence.

You can only be her caregiver if she is willing to work with you is my take on this thing.  
I could not deal with the near daily abuse. It would be for hours at a time and again, she was unwilling to "allow" me to walk away from it in my own home.  I was not allowed to shut the door and ask for a cool down time.  She wanted to rage at me and do it nonstop. I work from home and this kept me from getting my work done.  It also got crazy with no end in sight......If I stopped talking, she took that as an offense and got violent, but when I did try to talk, everything I said got twisted into another form of insult.....

I could not live that anymore.  I am still recovering now that she's out of the house.  I hurt,  and I worry, but at the end of the day, without any cooperation and professional intervention, this was a non functioning home and my husband and I could not exist in it. Who would?  
Sorry, my opinion may be considered unhelpful here....and I do know that from here, I have a long way to go in order to have successful interactions with my child, but for us, separating physically, at least for now, was the way to go.  She will struggle, yes....and hopefully she will learn in that to be a little more grateful for what we provide for her, and be a little more cooperative about the reasonable things we are asking of her in order that we can function together.  If not, it's still best that we don't try to do this when it's really non functional....because in our case, it really was non functional on many levels. I have to admit that I am not the kind of person who can take hours of battering.  I have a fight or flight, too.  I dont have BPD, that came from the bio father's side, but I have been beaten down by her BPD father for 8 years, then she was born, he was gone, and the trauma's kept coming.  It's been a long road for me, too.  I have to be allowed to say that about myself.  

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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2019, 10:23:34 AM »

LOTR-
You are wise and you are speaking my reality. She was down to $0 in her acct so I decided to put in enough money for her to Uber to BF. We have cameras on house and see she was picked up at 12, returned at 2.  We are way past the moral question of her spending night w/BF du jour . I would be overcome with joy if one of these guys liked her enough to let her live with them.
You are correct in that I can’t care for someone who is not working on herself. I will look again at supportive/transitional housing. I’ve had a hard time finding anything like that.
I do not feel the deep connectedness that many people here share and I honestly would be ok if she was surviving out in the world and since we’ve never really had a two way relationship, I wouldn’t be missing anything.
So many describe that their pwBPD can be wonderful, giving, loving then turn on them. We’ve had some fun times, but we’ve never felt that deep companionship from her.
Thanks for letting me work thru this here.
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2019, 10:53:04 AM »

Ok I’m back- I hate being needy but things are coming to a head here and I need wisdom.

 I just went and had a discussion w/her  (based on LOTR’s wise insight). I said “I don’t think we are helping you and you can’t hold us hostage w/suicidal threats” (all this while she’s laying in her bed). She said “you never help me, I’m sad every single day and hate my life. Every therapist I’ve had (I think she’s had 5 or 6 women therapist) just says “hi B, how are things going, I tell them about some horrible relational problem and they reaping Are you using your coping skills?’ -that’s not enough Mom, I need help with all the PTSD I have. I’m afraid to get on elevators bc of the sexual assault in 10 th grade on school elevator.... Mom I need help!!!”

This went on and on -she’s absolutely in depression and victim mode, very little self care. I reached out to Basel VanderKolk “the body keeps the score” Doctor years ago and he suggested we send her to Meadows in AZ -we can’t afford it.

I think PTSD can overlap BPD. I assume the theory is -get her all propped up as stable as possible w/DBT coping skills, good nutrition, etc. then start working thru all the traumas, one by one. I’m exhausted and the day hasn’t really begun yet. She screamed “get me a therapist who can help me”.
Poor kid....
Ok so I guess she must have DBT therapy and no PTSD therapy yet. Thoughts?
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MomSA
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2019, 12:05:20 PM »


I think PTSD can overlap BPD. I assume the theory is -get her all propped up as stable as possible w/DBT coping skills, good nutrition, etc. then start working thru all the traumas, one by one. I’m exhausted and the day hasn’t really begun yet. She screamed “get me a therapist who can help me”.
Poor kid....
Ok so I guess she must have DBT therapy and no PTSD therapy yet. Thoughts?


Im glad you had a chance to chat and get more clarity where she's at. My daughter also talks about PTSD and the traumas...and I think when they get to Wise Mind a lot of them aren't traumas...its what you said earlier about their childhood feeling like one long trauma.
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2019, 01:37:53 PM »

Wow!  What a thread this is!

PeaceMom, your first post did sound like you felt you were between a rock and a hard place.   Hope you are getting some relief as you read the wonderful responses above. They are so well-thought-out, written from experience and full of support to help you do whatever it is you will eventually decide to do.

There is no doubt that your daughter is in emotional turmoil.  It was a bit of a break-through when she managed to get those words out to you....to expose some of what is going on inside that troubled brain of hers.  My heart goes out to her....and to you!

As with most of us here, the quick and easy answers just don't happen.  We work long and hard for the stability that seems to be a given in those other "normal", untroubled families we know.  Why us, huh?

Your words...."Thanks for letting me work thru this here"?   Well, thanks to you for sharing.  This is what this forum is all about .....sharing ....caring....and... learning from each other.

Wishing you better days ahead, PeaceMom....and....may they happen ASAP!

((((HUGS)))) .....from Huat.

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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2019, 04:19:22 PM »

Hi Peacemom.

I have nothing to add really and it does look like you are getting some very wise words.

I started reading and it took me back to the 4yrs of hell I endured with my son, really no fun at all and I just wanted to say that I know how difficult it can be and It's perfectly normal for you to feel this way.

Wishing you a good outcome.
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2019, 02:39:35 PM »

Gosh so understanding this post and all you are sharing. My son today was too anxious to get themselves to a new therapist's appointment. They took a cab. They wanted to cancel. This one was recommended by my sister who is a psychologist. My son feels that he needs to work on PTSD. This person hopefully can help them.

My son has had many therapists, a psychiatrist, has done multiple workprep courses and classes. They keep putting off or changing because they don't like the outcome or the expectations.

That's why I'm done. Partly why. So many people have said the same thing to him over and over in different ways and all things I have said over the course of the last 10 years.

I give up. It has to be them that gets their act together and wants it. And that's the hard part. No kick in the a** will do it. I've tried figuratively. I too live under the threat of well I might as well kill myself. That's their reply that's their solution. And it's not helping. Me or them.

I hope this PTSD therapist can help them. I really do and I hope that you can find the same for your daughter. My son has experienced a lot of trauma. I hope it helps them.

Thank you for sharing and I see so many similarities.

I wish you the best and stay strong.
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2019, 04:07:51 PM »

Blue,

Thanks for your kind words.
What I’m learning about doing trauma work is that they must be as stable as possible. I really liked the way  MomSA reminded me that when they are in their DBT Wisemind maybe they can look back on an incident and see that it really was different that what they recall-not as scary, dangerous or hurtful.

I bet having a sister who gets all this is so helpful. Unfortunately, I’ve run into only one friend who has understanding of the incredible challenge of parenting a BPD. This friend runs a National foundation helping young women who are victims of sex trafficking. -they seem to all fit the BPD description. I go to her for understanding when I need face to face support.  She runs a safe house with many young adult women who are all dysregulated. Tough tough stuff.

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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2019, 10:19:20 AM »

Thank you for sharing.  When my son lived with me he shouted , cursed that I'm not helping him "find a therapist that can help him."  Vitriol and rage aimed at me because  I " can't even find him a job". 
In my opinion, part of the problem is the BPD wants the magic cure( as alluded to by Bluemoon).  They want the  one thing that will make the misery go away without having to learn coping skills, etc.  Yes, they are hurting unbearably and have no insight maybe . In my case, I wrote out the names and phone numbers of therapists for DS to call  daily when he was living with me.  He either " forgot" or " couldn't read my writing" or  etc etc.  When he finally did find someone he went once.  Then he went again after his hospitalization / Restraining order back in March.  Only once.     

The adult BPD child has to have an almost burning desire to get help.  Peacemom, all you can do is maybe what I did- give phone numbers and names of therapists to your DD.  You can even call them ( although they will want to speak to you daughter), but other than that , finding the PTSD therapist  is her battle.  Is she willing to help you help her?  And does she really want the help.  RIght now she just wants the pain to stop, but needs to realize that has to be her initiative. You are a caring , compassionate , good mother.
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2019, 11:13:16 AM »

Swimmy,
This makes sense, we’ve paid out of pocket for weekly therapy off and on for 8 years. In another post I mentioned that she enjoys therapy bc I believe she sees it as an area she can vent vent vent and be validated as a victim. They usually throw in some HW like “journaling” or “practice saying No to an unhealthy request”.
I’m reading in my “Loving someone w/BPD” book about Self Constructs and how we go out into the world looking for validation of the way we see ourselves. So interesting, because most BPD’s have poor self constructs so they gravitate toward friends who validate that poor image back to them. Who knew?!? At least now I know why she hangs out w/misfits.
Thanks for the reminder that she must take ownership of her recovery, just like a hard core drug addict.
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