Mediation Can it work?

[Kingherc]

I am curious if anyone has been successful in divorcing someone undiagnosed BPD using mediation and not having to fight it out. My uBPDw says she will not contest when I file and I think we want the same things but I see a lot of people on here that show it tends to be HCD rather than an agreeable process. I have the book Splitting on order and will read it but am curious if anyone has been successful through mediation?

[worriedStepmom]

When my H and his uBPDex divorced, they came to an agreement together and just had a lawyer write it up.  They had very few assets; for them it was primarily agreeing to a custody arrangement.

When H went to court last summer seeking primary custody of his daughter, his ex did not appear; she signed a paper saying she agreed to whatever H wanted.

This worked for them because she was terrified of the courts and terrified of authority figures.  She thought a judge would take one look at her and take her child away. 

Fast-forward to now...uBPDex is no longer afraid of the courts, and she is now calling the police on H frequently, for stupid stuff.  This next custody battle is going to be contentious.

You know how your ex handles stress.  Is she the type to hide under the bed, or the type to split on you and create all kinds of havoc?  Is there a lot to decide?  Do you think you'll start at similar places, or will there be a huge gulf between what you think is fair and what she thinks is fair?

[scraps66]

Nope.  I believe there has been a 20% success factor advertised here.  My guess is it would be lower.  Mediation assumes both parties can communicate and collaborate in an equitable fashion.  That said, mediation can end up being a way of belaboring a divorce to a greater degree than the conventional process.  My divorce from a 47 month marriage took over 4 years!

[Kingherc]

We have a few assets, home and retirement accounts. When we have had calm conversations it seems like we are on the same page and want the same things. There is nothing worth fighting for except 50% custody of the kids. I guess next step is to contact a lawyer and come up with a game plan.

[mart555]

We have a few assets, home and retirement accounts. When we have had calm conversations it seems like we are on the same page and want the same things. There is nothing worth fighting for except 50% custody of the kids. I guess next step is to contact a lawyer and come up with a game plan.

That sounds familiar.  She said "I want something that is fair, I don't want this to turn into a nasty divorce where we waste money on lawyers".   I went to visit houses with her and the kids.  Shopping for new furniture so that we could figure out what would be missing in each other's households. 

4 months later I had to begin court proceedings because:
- When she says fair, she meant that "because you are the one that wants the divorce you need to take care of my financial needs for the rest of my life"
- Whatever household stuff she doesn't want I have to give her money for it and she puts a high amount on it
- Her retirement fund shouldn't be part of the equalization "because she needs it" and "I can make lots of money by working more"
- She wanted to put restrictions on where I could live, ie: I cannot live more than 5 minutes from her house or something like that
- And most important: while we originally agreed on 50-50 at first and I wanted some protection in the agreement about her condition and whatnot (ie: I get to have kids more as needed based on her mental / physical condition), she refused to put these hooks in place in the agreement and subsequent events that happened, along with me getting out of the fog, made me realize that this wasn't best for the kids and that I need to have this done properly from the start

We discussed possible mediation and she rejected it saying that I would convince the mediator to take my side. Then she threatened to get a shark lawyer just to waste my money even if it means that she'd end up in the street.   

So yeah, it went nowhere fast.  I should have started on court proceedings earlier and try to settle in parallel. 

This article from the american bar association is quite interesting with that regards
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25740715?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
It says that "BPD resist division of anything, because parting with even equal or smaller parts is intolerable.  This behavior relates both to children and to property, as well as to any other rights at stake.  Division means a loss of the kind that the sufferer most fears"

[MeandThee29]

From what I've been told, a lower rate of success than the general population. Sometimes they want to get it done and may be willing to give, but then there's other times when they become triggered and go back-and-forth so much that it doesn't get done.

Many with BPD/NPD have little regard for the law and will want more than the law allows, so you may be headed to court before they'll give into the legal limits.

[Kingherc]

So where do I begin then?  Should I just lawyer up now?

[MeandThee29]

So where do I begin then?  Should I just lawyer up now?

That's a hard question. Yours may not know about mediation. As I said, it's possible. Even if you are not successful, you might get some issues settled that way. Bill Eddy advocates mediation.

Mine lawyered up while I was getting recommendations and making my list of people I wanted to interview. Mediation hasn't been on the table at all. There are just a handful of issues right now that haven't been settled going lawyer-to-lawyer. Hard to say if this will be successful without going to court or not. It might be.

[livednlearned]

You can settle some things in mediation and leave items you can't agree to for litigation at a later date.

My ex and I agreed to 95 percent but I would not agree to joint legal custody. Our order had a phrase that LnL and n/BPDx will do x, y, and z with assets and so forth, and visitation will go like this. However, the issue of legal custody is not resolved. In the meantime, joint legal custody will apply.

Then I patiently collected evidence and thanks to n/BPDx's desire to express the depth of his hatred to me by text and email and voicemail, we eventually went to court and lo and behold, he was not stable enough to have legal custody. Or physical for that matter.

It took 4 years.

There is an article on here somewhere that says it can take 4-8 years to recover financially from divorce, on the higher end if it's high conflict.

You may get through a relatively straightforward mediation only to discover she doesn't comply with any of it. For that reason, some people skip mediation. Or, if it's mandated, they do it, going in knowing that there is a bottom line and if the opposing side won't budge, call off mediation within the first hour and settle in court.

Lawyers tend to pride themselves on reaching mediation and no one wants you to go to court. People will say that judges won't give you the deal you want, etc. and that may be true. For most of us, judges (presented with the right evidence, argued by a good L) tend to err on the side of being reasonable.

And if you go in with a problem-solving mindset and built-in consequences for non-compliance, you can cut through some of the muck of family court and align yourself with the cooler head sitting on the other side of the bench.

Most of us also experience problems with stonewalling.

However, a lot of us here divorced high-conflict personalities -- people who tend to recruit negative advocates, have a target of blame, and are persuasive blamers, who also have a personality disorder. Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities, though all HCPs have a PD of some kind or other.

Do you have kids?

[ForeverDad]

Many courts require mediation as one of the first steps in a divorce, mine was right after the first hearing in court for the (supposedly) temporary order.  We were ordered to make 3 attempts or sessions.  We only made it through one, after which the mediator muttered "this woman has issues".

Word to the wise:  Do make a sincere attempt in mediation, you want to be able to state, if asked, that you made a sincere effort.  Just don't sell yourself short or Gift Away your "Leverage to obtain compliance" or too many things.

The general truism here is that early mediation or settlement conference attempts fail because the disordered spouse is too entitled, too controlling, too obstructive or too whatever.  As you've read, the perceived pain of losing or feeling abandoned is just too great.

However, many of us have settled.  How?  Typically later in the divorce process such as just before a major hearing or trial.  Often it's at the last possible moment.  My divorce settlement was nearly two years into the separation/divorce, I found out when I arrived at family court for Trial Day.

If you can work out an equitable settlement earlier, great.  But to get there  don't give in and agree to too many unfair concessions, it not worth it, that quiescence will come back to bite you sooner or later, usually sooner.

[Kingherc]

Yes we have two kids. 8 and 4.  Thank you for that. I need to come up with a plan first to figure out when I should take the first step at this point.

[MeandThee29]

Word to the wise:  Do make a sincere attempt in mediation, you want to be able to state, if asked, that you made a sincere effort.  Just don't sell yourself short or Gift Away your "Leverage to obtain compliance" or too many things.

The general truism here is that early mediation or settlement conference attempts fail because the disordered spouse is too entitled, too controlling, too obstructive or too whatever.  As you've read, the perceived pain of losing or feeling abandoned is just too great.

However, many of us have settled.  How?  Typically later in the divorce process such as just before a major hearing or trial.  Often it's at the last possible moment.  My divorce settlement was nearly two years into the separation/divorce, I found out when I arrived at family court for Trial Day.

If you can work out an equitable settlement earlier, great.  But to get there  don't give in and agree to too many unfair concessions, it not worth it, that quiescence will come back to bite you sooner or later, usually sooner.

Know your rights. Some lawyers will go after things that would never stand up in court because that's what they do. They may fire up their clients with high hopes. The hope is that you will give in without court, getting more for their client in the end. Other lawyers will aim for a more fair approach from the beginning. I asked a lot of questions in that vein when I was interviewing because I wanted someone who was the latter but also a strong litigator.