Interesting article: What makes narcissists sad? ~ Joanne Ducharme, Ph.D.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

What makes narcissists sad? ~ Joanne Ducharme, Ph.D.

I was married to a Narcissist for 26 years, but he was NOT married to me.

I loved Bob and Bob loved Bob.

That is the essence of narcissists.

I was 18 when we met and 20 when we married, so it took years of watching other married couples to figure out what our relationship was lacking, and then figure out why. Everything was a negotiation to his advantage, and every negotiation required me to fulfill my side of the “bargain” first, after which he may or may not do his part. When I say everything, I mean from big things like agreeing on which car to purchase to minor things such as handing me a cup sitting next to him. Most conversations consisted of “If you will do this, then I might do that…” He constantly calculated his best interest, his chance at a “victory” (everything was a contest) and his chances at manipulating me into doing something for him that I might not want to do.

The sad part was that many of his elaborate manipulations were unnecessary because I was happy to do things for him anyway. That was not reciprocated. Narcissists do not do for others, they do not think of others, they do not anticipate the needs or wants of others, and they do not care about the desires, needs or feelings of others unless those feelings inconvenience the narcissist in his pursuit of getting whatever it is he wants in the moment.

For years I had this mental image of a thick wall separating us, with rings of barbed wire out front to keep me from the wall, and if only I could get through the barbed wire without bleeding to death, and somehow get through that wall, then I would be in where the sunshine and flowers were and he would see that I’m a safe person and we would both be happy.

But I came to realize that the wall and barbs were to keep me from finding out the truth, which was that the other side of the wall was desolate and barren. He wasn’t keeping me out of a good place, he was keeping me from knowing what an empty shell of a human being he is and that his whole life consisted of drifting like a vacuum cleaner, sucking the joy and warmth out of others into the infinite chasm of his soul.

Eventually I let go and left, and have been married for 14 years to someone who, while not perfect, is not a Narcissist.

Every day is a revelation — spouses are emotionally available! Spouses are your biggest fan! Spouses do things for you just because, and appreciate when you do things for them! Spouses don’t kick you when you’re down! They don’t act as “Judge, Jury and Executioner” without ever telling you what you are being punished for! Not one single item I own has been broken or gone missing as punishment for some unknown infraction! WHO KNEW? :>)

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-narcissists-sad/answer/Joanne-Ducharme-3

[formflier]

What makes narcissists sad? ~ Joanne Ducharme, Ph.D.

I was married to a Narcissist for 26 years, but he was NOT married to me.

I loved Bob and Bob loved Bob.

That is the essence of narcissists.

I was 18 when we met and 20 when we married, so it took years of watching other married couples to figure out what our relationship was lacking, and then figure out why. Everything was a negotiation to his advantage, and every negotiation required me to fulfill my side of the “bargain” first, after which he may or may not do his part. When I say everything, I mean from big things like agreeing on which car to purchase to minor things such as handing me a cup sitting next to him. Most conversations consisted of “If you will do this, then I might do that…” He constantly calculated his best interest, his chance at a “victory” (everything was a contest) and his chances at manipulating me into doing something for him that I might not want to do.

The sad part was that many of his elaborate manipulations were unnecessary because I was happy to do things for him anyway. That was not reciprocated. Narcissists do not do for others, they do not think of others, they do not anticipate the needs or wants of others, and they do not care about the desires, needs or feelings of others unless those feelings inconvenience the narcissist in his pursuit of getting whatever it is he wants in the moment.

For years I had this mental image of a thick wall separating us, with rings of barbed wire out front to keep me from the wall, and if only I could get through the barbed wire without bleeding to death, and somehow get through that wall, then I would be in where the sunshine and flowers were and he would see that I’m a safe person and we would both be happy.

But I came to realize that the wall and barbs were to keep me from finding out the truth, which was that the other side of the wall was desolate and barren. He wasn’t keeping me out of a good place, he was keeping me from knowing what an empty shell of a human being he is and that his whole life consisted of drifting like a vacuum cleaner, sucking the joy and warmth out of others into the infinite chasm of his soul.

Eventually I let go and left, and have been married for 14 years to someone who, while not perfect, is not a Narcissist.

Every day is a revelation — spouses are emotionally available! Spouses are your biggest fan! Spouses do things for you just because, and appreciate when you do things for them! Spouses don’t kick you when you’re down! They don’t act as “Judge, Jury and Executioner” without ever telling you what you are being punished for! Not one single item I own has been broken or gone missing as punishment for some unknown infraction! WHO KNEW? :>)

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-narcissists-sad/answer/Joanne-Ducharme-3

[Enabler]

Nice piece, like that.

[Notwendy]

That describes it well. I know the term "covert narcissist" has been brought up. I can see a lot of overlap between BPD and NPD, however, I think BPD also includes more self destructive tendencies. That's just my own observation.

For BPD, I would say ( if "Bob" were BPD). I loved "Bob" but Bob was too wounded to love Bob. As a result, he manipulated ways for me to prove that love and looked outside himself for proof of that love,  but without self love, it seemed he couldn't see that proof.  I thought if only I could love Bob enough I would get through that wall where the rainbows and butterflies were.

[formflier]

  I think BPD also includes more self destructive tendencies. 

I might use the term "self-loathing" or perhaps shame.  Perhaps acting out on those feelings.

Here is an interesting question.  I've always "knew" that there is an empty "wasteland" for those with BPD...(the part about getting through the barbed wire).

However...I had always figured that those with NPD were "full of themselves" and perhaps "liked themselves too much"...vice trying to "hide who they really were".

Full disclosure:  I'm no expert here on the NPD thing..so very likely don't have the best perspective.

Thoughts?

FF

[Enabler]

I thought they were different ends of the spectrum.

NPD acts from the perspective that they are special and do deserve special attention. Their fragile ego comes from shattering that specialness delusion i.e. going from +1 to 0. Others are not important and just tools to service their specialness.

BPD acts from a perspective that they are no special, that they are bad and full of self loathing (core shame). They become totally self absorbed and incapable of thinking about others because they are constantly fighting to not be emotionally hurt i.e. going from 0 to -1.

One is protecting "I'm awesome and everyone should see that" and the other one is protecting themselves from, I am terrible and no one can see that." Either end devotes all energy on themselves and is incapable of being externally focused.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

IMHO, they are both empty wastelands, but each tries to fill their emptiness through looking outside themselves, rather than to acknowledge that their discomfort is their own feelings and work on that.

The original Narcissus in Greek mythology fell in love with his image, not his own inner qualities. His image was seen in a pool of water, it was fleeting. I think people with NPD are constantly building up an image for people to admire. They may act like they love themselves but in reality they don't- they are in love with the image they created.

I agree with enabler that with BPD, the image is designed to hide their inner self because they fear others will not love them. This also results in the focus on the image.

[formflier]

I agree with enabler that with BPD, the image is designed to hide their inner self because they fear others will not love them. This also results in the focus on the image.

Very interesting...

So...hmm...I think there is general agreement that on the BPDish end of things there is some knowledge/understanding of empty...and an effort to hide it.

On the NPD end...is their awareness of "empty".  I'm still thinking there is awareness of "grandiosity" (vice using grandiosity as a "cover") and perhaps they are perplexed when other people don't acknowledge the greatness.

Perhaps in some cases there is a "worry" that goes past being perplexed about other people not getting it...where they start to "act out" to punish people that don't get it...or act out in ways to "prove" to others that they are great.

It could also come from a place of "I'm so great I can do whatever I want with no consequences.."

Thoughts?

FF

[Enabler]

Perhaps in some cases there is a "worry" that goes past being perplexed about other people not getting it...where they start to "act out" to punish people that don't get it...or act out in ways to "prove" to others that they are great.

It could also come from a place of "I'm so great I can do whatever I want with no consequences.."

I agree with that.

The act of being Narcisistic Notwendy rightly points out coming from the myth about Narcissus falling in Love with his own reflection. He was so upset that the love he had for himself (his own reflection) could not materialise he committed suicide. It's come to mean being self centred and I guess here's where we should again separate the 2. NPD are in love with themselves and believe their own false image of their greatness... plenty of political figureheads to choose from ... cough... Trump... cough. Being NPD is often very lonely since given one would have a false imagine of greatness... people are unlikely to genuinely reinforce that delusion, henec NPD's love people who think they're great, and hate those who show contempt. BPD aren't narcissistic in the sense of the mythological example, but they are very very self centred due to them being constantly in fight or flight, self preservation. 

[formflier]

So...can we simplify it to BPD "hates themselves too much" and NPD "loves themselves too much"?

Or...is that an oversimplification?

Can this simplification be applied to say that generally with a pw BPD you are validating "that is tough" versus a NPD you are validating "that's great!...great idea..."  (note..I would guess staying away from "you are great" is wise with NPD)

I'm the least familiar with NPD.  Every once in a while I'll see something that I think might be "NPDish" in my relationship...but mainly it's PPDish...BPDish  (things suck and it's your fault...in fact you are colluding with abc to cause xyz because you want efg)  (with me saying..."do what?")

Every so often I'll get something that says "my priorities must be first because "my brother is wonderful and here"..."my family this that and the other"  Very rarely do I get "I am so great or did a great job"

Usually that only happens when it's so completely obvious it can't be denied.  (such as test score improvement double the norm in the school system...not just the school)  Even then she was really uncomfortable...I would think NPDish would eat that up.

Thoughts?



Best,

FF

[Enabler]

NPD would definitely eat that up... in fact all success is due to them and all failure is due to others incompetence.

Feeling like you've done a bad is painful for whoever, NPD feel the pain because it brings them off their comfortable high horse, BPD it brings them down into the bottomless pit of shame. A well rounded individual will be able to accept that sometimes we stuff up... sometimes we really stuff up, and sometimes we're holey responsible for the stuff up... but rather than dwell on how that stuff up and the shame has impacted our sense of being, we crack on and do something about it.

Regardless of what goes wrong in my W's life, her focus after the stuff up is not about solving the problem and making good, it's about apportioning blame to someone else. Much like a child will sit there with juice pouring off the table into their lap and down their leg doing absolutely nothing about 'the problem', instead argue the toss about who knocked the beaker of juice, a pwBPD is more concerned about rid themselves of the 'bad feeling' and less concerned with ridding themselves of the situation.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

So...can we simplify it to BPD "hates themselves too much" and NPD "loves themselves too much"?

To make the distinction, I think neither of them truly have self love, but the NPD is in love with his false self- the image he presents to others. (but his true inner self is a "wasteland" since he focuses on the inside. ( could be he or she, but since the example is "Bob" I use he)

Can this simplification be applied to say that generally with a pw BPD you are validating "that is tough" versus a NPD you are validating "that's great!..

I would agree with this, since I think the pwBPD has a victim perspective, and seeks validation for that. The pwNPD would tend to seek validation for his "wonderful ,superior" persona.

[Red5]

Great article, & a great thread…

I've been reading,
*The Object of My Affection Is in My Reflection: Coping with Narcissists:
-Book by Rokelle Lerner

Actually I have the MP3/CD, and I listen to and from work… I'm on my third "read-listen" now.

Lots of comparisons to bpd & npd.

Very interesting and insightful.

What I am understanding… pw/npd, like pw/bpd, is resultant from early childhood trauma (most cases), childhood wounds… inner false self stuff… also "miss-parenting'', via disordered / dysfunctional parents, or parent - guardians… ie' smothering, spoiling… perhaps to make up for trauma(?), NOTE: orphans present, and are a whole other thing (abandonment at birth), emotional dynamic.

So what we have, in most cases, is an arrested developed adult, whom is full of rage (anger), from unresolved early childhood wounds emotional-mental-physical, "mommy-daddy issues" perhaps.

*early and frequent abandonment.
*early abuse, either emotional or actual physical.

The "false self" is created in order to protect the inner child, which manifests in the "clusters", bpd (borderline) is on the "borderline" of many of the disorders, et' all… in our sector (discussion), cluster "B's".

We all have a little narcissism in our personalities… a little is healthy in order to cope with life… but like too much salt in the 'Brunswick Stew', too much /N/ & its not healthy.

Cognitive, and dialectical core thinking processes were not formed properly, were damaged… in early childhood, the "false inner child" dynamic was formed as a "defensive coping mechanism" to protect the person from abuse (psychologically),  …

As in "DBT helps people build four major skills"… *mindfulness - *distress tolerance (this one is crucial) - *interpersonal effectiveness - *emotional regulation… these early tools, programing was damaged, the foundational ability for mindfulness abilities / capabilities was denied, due to trauma, abuse… insert ptsd / cptsd here.

This is what is not functioning properly (cognitive/dialectic) in pw/npd - pw/bpd (our sector), and its not their fault, enter "empathy".

Bad programing… in the book, it says to "never trust an npd to provide you with empathetic support within a relationship, they are in most cases incapable".

Our SO's with bpd are the same in a sense as a pw/npd(empathetic), depending on their position on the spectrum… do pw/bpd have empathy(?), well some do, and some don't... some have no ability to give that to others, as they are too busy just trying to survive… "toxic" - "radioactive"… as they pass on to the "bad" end (right) of the spectrum, with age, and without therapy, undx… there is an element of npd that now comes too, by now, the pw/bpd-npd has pushed everyone who cared about them away, they have destroyed everything in their professional, familial, and lastly their romantic relationships.

They have become rigid, talionic, black and white, unapproachable, unforgiving, full of paranoia, angst, darkness.

Show me a couple, in their sixties / seventies and beyond (God Forbid)… and one is a suspected borderline / narcissist (anti-social-sociopath)… and the other spouse is still there in the marriage / relationship by some miracle, or fate of karma… money says that this poor sod has had their soul sucked out, he (or she) is an MT shell… dead inside… henpecked, under full control, a severely codependent "Renfield"…

There is no "cure" without significant introspection by the pw/bpd-npd… not likely to ever happen, due to that wounded inner child standing guard over the "false self", or maybe its the other way round?

… "cure" means ability to recognize, manage, control their emotional dysregulations, there is not an "NED" finality dx here… pw/pbd-npd "are"… they don't "have"… this is whom they are, from childhood.

Its generational too,

… wow!

Red5

[toomanydogs]

So...can we simplify it to BPD "hates themselves too much" and NPD "loves themselves too much"?

Or...is that an oversimplification?





Thoughts?



Best,

FF

I agree with notwendy. I think those with NPD have no love or appreciation for who they really are. Same with those with BPD. The problem I've experienced is that both will lash out and seek to really wound or destroy someone. Everything in their lives is so outwardly directed--it's M who caused me to feel, it's J who caused me to feel, it's X who caused me...

So they seek out M, J & X and try to get even. I'm basing this on my relationships with my STBX and my STBX-FIL.

My opinion? They're both a mess--not exactly a category in the DSM, but my opinion nonetheless.

TMD

[Notwendy]

To be fair, it exists on a spectrum. But in the most severe situations I think Red correctly described my parents with my mother being one of the most disordered persons I have ever had the chance to observe. Still she has friends and acquaintances who have not seen the whole of it and think she's a wonderful person. Her "persona" is, but when nobody is looking, the mask comes off. While she fits all the aspects of BPD, she has  NPD characteristics as well.

Show me a couple, in their sixties / seventies and beyond (God Forbid) … and one is a suspected borderline / narcissist (anti-social-sociopath) … and the other spouse is still there in the marriage / relationship by some miracle, or fate of karma … money says that this poor sod has had their soul sucked out, he (or she) is an MT shell … dead inside … henpecked, under full control, a severely codependent "Renfield" …

However, we don't have to be the co-dependent partner- we can work on that. The relationship may or may not improve, or last, but I think we can still make the choice to not allow ourselves to be abused, one way or the other. In some milder cases, I do think we can achieve not being abused, but I don't know if the other person can be a fully emotionally present spouse without a lot of personal work at it.

[AskingWhy]

That describes it well. I know the term "covert narcissist" has been brought up. I can see a lot of overlap between BPD and NPD, however, I think BPD also includes more self destructive tendencies. That's just my own observation.

The Eggshells book goes into the overlap in great detail, stating that the more "functional" a BPD is, the more likely he/she is to have NPD features. 

It should be kept in mind that BPDs exhibit, at turns, features of the other PDs.

[Skip]

Is this really a good article... let's break it down.

Title: What makes narcissists sad?
Main Point of Article: I don't know. She never talks about what makes a narassist sad. She doesn't talk about the emotions or thought patterns a person with this affliction at all. Not a word.

What does she talk about is how she felt:

Everything was a negotiation Everything was to his advantage Everything was a contest Everything was manipulating me into doing something for him

For years I had this mental image of a thick wall separating us, with rings of barbed wire out front to keep me from the wall, and if only I could get through the barbed wire without bleeding to death, and somehow get through that wall, then I would be in where the sunshine and flowers were and he would see that I’m a safe person and we would both be happy.

More about her...

But I came to realize that the wall and barbs were to keep me from finding out the truth, which was that the other side of the wall was desolate and barren. He wasn’t keeping me out of a good place, he was keeping me from knowing what an empty shell of a human being he is and that his whole life consisted of drifting like a vacuum cleaner, sucking the joy and warmth out of others into the infinite chasm of his soul.

And now after 14 years of contemplation after leaving him, this is her understanding of the psyche and motivations of her ex-husband? He was a device for removing joy and warmth? She has had 14 years and an education on psychology and this is it.

Every day is a revelation — spouses are emotionally available! Spouses are your biggest fan! Spouses do things for you just because, and appreciate when you do things for them! Spouses don’t kick you when you’re down! They don’t act as “Judge, Jury and Executioner” without ever telling you what you are being punished for! Not one single item I own has been broken or gone missing as punishment for some unknown infraction! WHO KNEW? :>)

Who knew that these were the qualities to look for in a healthy relationship before getting married?  Apparently she didn't. And apparently some of us didn't either. That is what is "sad" to me. It took me years to understand what a quality relationship was. That was on me - no one else.

The article generally leaves me cold both with respect to her understanding of her former marriage and her understanding of relationships in general.

[Red5]

AskingWhy writes:

It should be kept in mind that BPDs exhibit, at turns, features of the other PDs.

“...on the border between neurosis and psychosis.”

-> Borderline

Red5