Wanted: Opinions and Thoughs on Therapist's Advice

[Parents! Get help here!]

Well, decided to call my therapist and she had an opening for me that very same day.  The reason I called is I am really feeling the toll that all of this is taking on me - by all of this I am referring to my son, his behavior with one foot still in the uBPD ex-girlfriend's world, his strings are still attached to her maneuvering hand as he is still being a "yes" man, and after 5 long years of dealing with all of this stuff, this lady has had just about enough.  He has lied to me while with her looking me straight in the eye to defend her about a man she truly did cheat on him with - trying to convince me that all three of them were friends and he actually hung out with him and he is a cool guy.  Looked me right in the eyes and said that.  Reason being I had called her out a few times on her behavior and I'm sure she gave the order to get your mom in line so she shuts up about this guy.  He of course obeyed.  Many, many other times he lied for her and her terrible behavior towards him to do what?  Make himself not look so much like a chump?  To protect her?  I don't know, but believe it or not - he's still doing it!

I've been waking up in every morning on the edge of an anxiety attack for about the past week or so, use my medication.  I go through the morning and when it wears off, the anxiety is back and I go for another pill.  I cannot keep doing this as these are addicting and I will not ever let my guard down with them.  I respect the medication and know you can get in trouble with it.

Therapist's advice was for me to "disengage" with him and anything to do with her, her parents, and even the children for that matter.  She told me that I admit that I feel she (the uBPD) has a serious mental illness, yet I hold these expectations on her when she returns the kids earlier than planned, looking dirty, one of them had a bad sunburn the other day, telling my son they were up all night, so good luck, hahaha - I just can't take hearing or seeing this stuff any more.  So...I need to disengage from it all.  I guess it's also called "detach with love," as I have heard on this board before. 

She said it was a choice.  Either you keep putting him with her stuff even though she isn't in his life anymore, she is still pulling the strings, get upset over her poor parenting, keep taking smart remarks and rude comments from my son and be miserable every day - or said no to all that and move on.  Big, big scary step for me, but it almost seems I have no choice at this point. 

Anybody been in this situation?  I think I might be overthinking it, but deep down I am scared that this will ruin our relationship and keep him from communicating with me at all.  I don't want that either, and I have our grandson to think about.  Just a messed up situation all the way around.

Just as an aside - when I told her about the schedule they have for my grandson because that is what works for THEM - not taking into consideration the effect it may have on the child, her eyebrows shot up in the air and she felt it was a very hard thing for him to get used to.  She did not agree with it at all - too much bouncing around - Mon/Tues - Mom has him, Wed/Thursday, Dad has him, Friday, they alternate each week, Saturday Mom has him and Sunday Dad has him.  This poor little guy must be confused as all get out!  But I guess I need to keep my mouth shut about the whole thing and detach, as she said. 

I don't want to make this sound like I don't agree with her.  I see where she is going with it, and I kind of do agree with her.  I just never thought I would see the day where I had to disengage from my kid.  I know many of you out there have done it though, so maybe it's just my turn.

What do you all think?

[Angie59]

Well, decided to call my therapist and she had an opening for me that very same day.  The reason I called is I am really feeling the toll that all of this is taking on me - by all of this I am referring to my son, his behavior with one foot still in the uBPD ex-girlfriend's world, his strings are still attached to her maneuvering hand as he is still being a "yes" man, and after 5 long years of dealing with all of this stuff, this lady has had just about enough.  He has lied to me while with her looking me straight in the eye to defend her about a man she truly did cheat on him with - trying to convince me that all three of them were friends and he actually hung out with him and he is a cool guy.  Looked me right in the eyes and said that.  Reason being I had called her out a few times on her behavior and I'm sure she gave the order to get your mom in line so she shuts up about this guy.  He of course obeyed.  Many, many other times he lied for her and her terrible behavior towards him to do what?  Make himself not look so much like a chump?  To protect her?  I don't know, but believe it or not - he's still doing it!

I've been waking up in every morning on the edge of an anxiety attack for about the past week or so, use my medication.  I go through the morning and when it wears off, the anxiety is back and I go for another pill.  I cannot keep doing this as these are addicting and I will not ever let my guard down with them.  I respect the medication and know you can get in trouble with it.

Therapist's advice was for me to "disengage" with him and anything to do with her, her parents, and even the children for that matter.  She told me that I admit that I feel she (the uBPD) has a serious mental illness, yet I hold these expectations on her when she returns the kids earlier than planned, looking dirty, one of them had a bad sunburn the other day, telling my son they were up all night, so good luck, hahaha - I just can't take hearing or seeing this stuff any more.  So...I need to disengage from it all.  I guess it's also called "detach with love," as I have heard on this board before. 

She said it was a choice.  Either you keep putting him with her stuff even though she isn't in his life anymore, she is still pulling the strings, get upset over her poor parenting, keep taking smart remarks and rude comments from my son and be miserable every day - or said no to all that and move on.  Big, big scary step for me, but it almost seems I have no choice at this point. 

Anybody been in this situation?  I think I might be overthinking it, but deep down I am scared that this will ruin our relationship and keep him from communicating with me at all.  I don't want that either, and I have our grandson to think about.  Just a messed up situation all the way around.

Just as an aside - when I told her about the schedule they have for my grandson because that is what works for THEM - not taking into consideration the effect it may have on the child, her eyebrows shot up in the air and she felt it was a very hard thing for him to get used to.  She did not agree with it at all - too much bouncing around - Mon/Tues - Mom has him, Wed/Thursday, Dad has him, Friday, they alternate each week, Saturday Mom has him and Sunday Dad has him.  This poor little guy must be confused as all get out!  But I guess I need to keep my mouth shut about the whole thing and detach, as she said. 

I don't want to make this sound like I don't agree with her.  I see where she is going with it, and I kind of do agree with her.  I just never thought I would see the day where I had to disengage from my kid.  I know many of you out there have done it though, so maybe it's just my turn.

What do you all think?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Angi:  I can see by your post that there is a lot going on.  Does your son live with you?  Is he as stressed as you are about all the up and down and in and out and back and forth?  What age is your son, and is he managing well with his parenting? 

Like your T, I am concerned about what all of this is doing to you, and whether, at the end of the day, all of your stress and worry is helping make the situation better, or adding to the complication of it?  I don't know, but from reading, it seems your son and grandchildren must live with you and all of this is directly affecting you, too.  I guess that's why I am asking for more information.

I am  a relatively new person in the group and not nearly as adept at helping as some others are, but reading your post, I do see the cause for concern when you need medication to accept what is here.  The uBPD x girlfriend, and mother of your grands is hopefully going to be a part of your lives, and the best outcome possible is the goal.

Ironically enough, my daughter has BPD and her BFs mother called me last night.  I knew from texts that my daughter had read me that this woman is HIGHLY critical of my mentally ill daughter and mean as a snake to her.  My daughter told me I would be proud of how she responded to these texts (and I very much was), because my daughter responded with class.  I actually told my daughters BF's mother last night when she called that she and I can't choose who our kids are going to love, and right now, they are choosing to love each other.  She is angry because her son is blocking her and won't talk to her, so she called me for information and further understanding.  I told her that I understood the same thing her son told her, which was that he was not going to listen to her cut his gf down and rant about his gf anymore, which is why he has stopped talking to her.  I suggested that she and I let them work their relationship out, and if they make mistakes or bad decisions in it, for us to be there for our kids when they need us. 

I realize our situation is significantly different from yours.  I just know that I had to let go of feelings I have had about the BF from things he's done to my daughter in the past (and they were horrible imo), but the fact is, today, right now, my daughter is choosing to love this boy again, and they have decided to reunite, and I need to stay out of it.  Again, this is different from you, BUT...the mother of the BF isn't doing what I am doing now, and it's causing a lot of friction, but ironically, not so much between my daughter and her BF, but between her BF and his mother.  My advice to the mom was let her son choose who he will love, since we all should have that right, and just be there for him and love him through whatever happens.   

[Angie59]

Hello there LoveontheRocks!

I welcome your input, so don't worry about not having experience here.  It was a delight to hear from you and your thoughts.  

To answer your questions, my son does not live with us.  He lives about 30 minutes away in a house he owns.  He has a good job he enjoys and what he thought was a "family" of his own.  His ex-girlfriend who has BPD left him about 3-1/2 months ago for another man.  They now live together.  My son is at his own house alone.  They have a split schedule for our grandson who is 3 years old.  

This may take you by surprise, but the therapist actually told me to disengage from the situation and said there was no reason I had to know anything about my son's and his ex-girlfriend's conversations or whatever expires between them about the kids or whatever.  I believe she does have a serious mental illness and I am sorry to hear that your daughter suffers from this as well.  She was very difficult to connect with and difficult to get along with, and we could never really click with her parents either as they were very, very different from us.  I could go on and on with complaints about her, but I realize your daughter, whom I'm sure you love dearly, is also suffering from BPD and I don't want to offend you in any way.  For me, it seems best if I act as if his ex-girlfriend and parents just do not exist right now for awhile anyway until my nerves settle down.  Hearing about things and seeing what my son is going through as well as the kids is very disturbing and saddening.  I need to get away from all of that in order to keep myself healthy.  

I can see how if a couple  are together and one or the other's parents interfere or voice how they don't like their choice of a partner that it would cause problems.  Another reason for me to "lovingly detach" myself from it all.  I just worry about the kids because they are the innocent ones and will be effected by all of this.  

Thank you again for responding!  I appreciate it!

P.S.  My son is 29 and he is a somewhat aloof kind of guy.  Doesn't seem to make a big deal out of things, takes things in stride, so he seems to be doing okay, but I know he misses the family he wished he would have had.  He doesn't get to see the 5 year old little girl whom he raised from the age of 4 months, very often, so many changes are happening, but he seems to be handling it okay.  The back and forth stuff, I feel, is not good for our grandson the way it is set up, and people from his work told him that from their experience it would be best to keep that at one parent's house for a week and then switch off for the next week instead of all the days back and forth through the week.  I asked him if his ex-uBPD girlfriend could handle having the kids for a week at a time and he told me no, she could not.  So...what other choice is there?

[Lollypop]

Hi Angie

Welcome, I’m glad your here.

Your son and DIL are adults who make choices about their own lives. You don’t have to agree with those choices because they live their own lives.

I understand the frustration of watching wrong decisions. I learnt the hard way too: you can’t change others. All you can change is how you react to them.

I think your therapist is correct in their suggestion that you detach with love. What this means is is placing their problems in their laps gently for them to deal with. While you go about living your own life because that is all you are responsible for.

I used to think black/white but learnt to align more to the needs of the situation. How could I still have a relationship with my son while “detaching”? It’s an emotional detachment from his problems and how he lives his life. I focussed on improving the relationship I have with him by not telling him how to do things or judging him but by just being there to validate him or give advice when he asked for it.

We all want the same thing in life: to be understood and to feel loved.

These adults are trying to work out what they see is the best for their lives. They’ll make mistakes. That’s how we all learn. Standing by and watching them make them without judgment is incredibly difficult but it is possible.

I hope this helps you in some way. You pay your therapist a lot of money and she’s giving you advice. You can listen and ask some more questions about what “detaching with love” looks like to you and how you can learn new interaction skills with your son. Take a look at the top right hand if this page and you’ll find lots of advice. I saved my family by changing how I react, there’s hope.

Hugs

LP

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Angie:
I have seen my daughter make decisions and choices that are extremely irresponsible and don't make sense.  My mother says she makes decisions and choices that feel good in the moment.  I know my daughter has left a man she is wholly in love with, because of fear, and gotten involved with another one, who she can better control her feelings with (detach from, when there is the implied threat of intensity of feelings).
I do not enjoy having to watch any of this, but I hear enough feedback from her as to what and why she does, and as to her feelings, to be able to figure out that this is what she is doing.  It's so hurtful for those who love her romantically, and when/if she reunites with the one she honestly loves, it causes him to act very clingy to her, out of fear. It's not right, but it is what it is.

This woman who may have bpd, and who is the mother of your grandchild, is going to be in your life as a result of her station (mother of your grandchild).  I completely understand your strong emotions towards helping your son, I would want to as well, but I worry about how your protective actions and mannerisms for him may further strain the relationship with her. In our state, grandparents don't have rights, and it would be horrible for you to find yourself in a situation where the lines of communication have been closed, and because she has judged that you have judged her poorly, and now she wants nothing more to do with you.  So, my advice is to protect those lines of communication with her by changing how you deal with her as best you can, so that you will have access to your grandchild.  Even if you aren't dealing with her directly, if your son is, and he gets advice from you, he may let her know where the "ideas" are coming from, and that will not bode well for the family at large. 

It may be the best thing, for now, for the schedule to be split up like this (in days and not weeks).  If mom isn't able to handle full weeks, then giving her "regroup" time might be in the child's best interest.  Unless or until she is found negligent, she is his mother and he, unfortunately as we might think it is, will be growing up with a mother who has a mental illness.  We want to protect him from that, but how can we, really?  Paramount, again, is his access to your son and you/your husband, and other family.  Protect that by accepting what is in place now, not needing to "fix" it, and being able to demonstrate that you are assuming your place, which in this case, is the loving grandma, and not a decision maker in this process.  Your son may sense so much more and understand so much more about this woman, and may actually be doing all the best things, under the circumstances.

There is one thing I really hate, and that is when people want to discuss my life's details with me, unsolicited.  If I am ok, and not bringing it up, I really hate when others feel the need to fix me by trying to bring up this or that (they bring up my daughter all the time, because from their perspective, I need to do something, but I AM doing something...I am taking my hands off her situation and having good boundaries with what I am and am not willing to do, with/for her, so that the lines of communication stay up between me and her). No, I don't like her life right now, or her choices on a myriad of things in it, but unless or until she asks for my input, if I go and try to "fix" the things I don't like, she gets offended, and we have trouble.  So, I let her do as she will and she is gaining lessons, experiences and hopefully, that will cause her to change some things, but if it doesn't, she is an adult, and I can't force her to live it the way I see fit.  Others in my family judge me that I am not "doing something," but I've tried a million times to change her thinking, and it only makes for a messy scene.  Now, I allow her to choose and if she asks me to "fix" I decide if I want to do that, or if I would rather suggest ways she can fix it herself, if she thinks something needs a fix.

Again, no, I don't like much about her life, but it's hers, and she rarely does what I like anyway.  I feel a lot less stressed now that I don't "assume responsibility" unto myself for the mess that is her life.  I remind myself that these are her choices and the results are her life lessons...I've had my fair share, too.  Remarkably, I find that she isn't nearly as unhappy and unsatisfied with her life as I am with her life.  She is plugging along and working it out.  It was me all along who was so distressed...even when/if she wasn't.  Who knew? 

[zachira]

I am sorry you are suffering so much heartbreak with your son and grandchild. I have often told my friends that their children are more likely to listen to someone other than their parents. It is hard to see your son doing things that are so harmful to him and his child yet he is an adult and he has to take responsibility for his decisions.

[No-One]

Hi Angie59:
How are things going?  Are you trying any of the suggestions made in a previous thread (i.e. journaling, postponing ruminating thoughts).  I remember you said the Serenity Prayer was helping a bit.

Our bad habits take awhile to change, but we can change them.  So hang in there.  If you stay with it, things can improve.  You need to take care of yourself and do things to eliminate your anxiety.  Have you tried any form of meditation?

Therapist's advice was for me to "disengage" with him and anything to do with her, her parents, and even the children for that matter.

I wholeheartedly agree with your therapist.  You have to quit trying to control things, change things that you have no control over.  If it bothers you too much to even babysit your grandson, then you need to back out of that.

Not interacting with your son's Ex and her parents is a definite need.  I'm thinking no joint holidays, birthday celebrations, etc.  There could be some unique situation, where you have to have a brief conversation or encounter with one of them.  In that case, just be polite and brief.  Other than that, you need to write them out of your life.

If you decide to keep babysitting, then you will need to put a protective bubble around you and don't let every little thing penetrate it.  When babysitting includes the daughter, by a different father, you may have to decline, if that draws you into drama with the ex.

You do have a few things to be thankful for, at the moment:
You son didn't marry his ex
They didn't have more children (which would mean more drama)
You can write her parents out of your life, for the most part
Your son could meet and marry a nice healthy woman

[Angie59]

First of all  to everyone and a big thank you to all of your replies.  They really mean a lot to me.  I not only read them over, I read them carefully and many times more than once.  Everyone here has given me ideas, made points I haven't thought about, and a lot to think about.  All of you are awesome. 

While I seem to be the one to keep asking questions, I need to get more involved in reading others' posts and not be so concentrated on myself and my issues.  I realize this is a give-take board and I feel I have been doing too much taking of my fellow supporters on here than giving, and I'm going to try to do better at that, as I truly do care about all of your personal situations. 

I have thought a lot about my son lately and know he is in a different place than myself, my husband and my older son, and he must deal with things and heal at his own pace.  It just angers me and hurts so badly that his decisions have a direct effect on an innocent 3 year old who is my light in this world.  He is one of the few things that truly makes me happy. 

I also realized my son has been the way he is now, all of his life.  I guess you would say passive-aggressive.  He will do things when and if he chooses to do them - which has a youngster got him a lot of time-outs or things taken away from him.  He hasn't changed one bit other than look you in the face during a conversation that he himself brought up to us, and we give our thoughts and opinions and he nods his head in agreement, we all seem to be on the same page, and lo and behold we find out that he didn't do anything we suggested!  It can be just infuriating!  Why are you involving us in this and even bringing up her name to us if you don't care what we have to say - just deal with it yourself because you do what you want anyway!  That's what I feel like saying sometimes, but I don't because I don't want to cut communication with him altogether. 

I have had two recommendations for a book called Divorce Poison.  I have two Kindle readers and the book appears on both Kindles after I ordered it.  I have not made it to the third chapter yet, but I see his ex-uBPD, himself and the situation with our grandchild in those first few chapters already.  I offered him one of my Kindles to take home and keep as long as he would like and that this was a book I thought he would benefit from as it was recommended to me by two reliable sources.  No real response, Kindle was left here.  Okaaaay.

So now the ex u-BPD who tried to convince him NOT to get lawyers involved in this in the beginning and we can come up with our own schedule, we don't need to waste money neither one of us has, has now for some reason decided they should pick what holidays, birthdays, occasions they each want and make it into a legal document.  Same exact situation that happened with first child's ex.  She also said she needed to quit her bar job because she was so sick of working 2 jobs and needed to just have 1 job - same thing once again.  This lowers her income, allows for her to have a State attorney for $0 dollars and get the maximum amount of money for child support.  My son's response, "I don't blame her.  I would hate working two jobs back to back like that." 

I feel like he is living on a different planet at this point.  How is is possible for someone who has done so much to you (during the relationship and now leaving you totally for someone else), not have you on the defense?  Did you not learn anything at all from all this?  Do you not realize that her past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, and she is doing right now to you?  Are you really looking at her with understanding and believing all she says?

I love my son dearly and will always be there for him, but I am seriously beginning to think that mentally something may be wrong.  You just can't get burned this badly and treated this badly and still be drinking the same ex-'s juice she was doling out all along. 

Even his actions are strange - he had an accident with his car - first call was to her to tell her about it.  She then tells him who to call and what to do and how to handle it, taking care of it for him.  His basement flooded, so who does he call?  You got it - her.  She sends her dad over with some fans to help dry things out.  He mowed the grass and  had something fly up and hit him in the eye - here comes Daddy over with some safety glasses for him.  Am I going crazy here?  Does anybody have any explanation for this kind of behavior?  I really am worried about his mental health.  Things just don't seem right to me.   

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Angie:  After reading your latest post, my impression is that your son will do anything to keep things going between himself and his ex...he is having trouble letting her go, and because you are so adamant that he needs to do that and so much more, he isn't being honest with you about his feelings.  In this case, maybe a therapist for him is advisable?  If he feels he cant or he wont be honest and direct and clear with you about where his head really is, perhaps he can evaluate where his head really is with a therapist, and that person can help him to do  what we all know would be appropriate, which is to consider himself and his child, and what would truly be in their best interests (instead of being so passive with her in the hopes she'll refall in love with him and come back to him, which is what this really sounds like).  If YOU read romantic threads on this site, you will see that those of us who have been in relationships with BPDs have experienced "love bombing" and as such, struggle.  I have been posting on someone's thread about my experience from the relationship I was in years back with my daughter's BPD father.  I talked about how I could literally talk to noone who knew and loved me about what was going on with me, because all of them were working from their objective minds at that time (uh, this guy is breaking bones in your body, LOTR!), and so I struggled to work through my emotions in order to get out of the relationship and literally save my life.  Search my posts and see the one I'm talking about if you want more info. on my experience with that.
I may be wrong, but having been there, and seeing you talk about how your son is acting, it really makes the most sense that perhaps he is hiding the truth from you...the real truth...which is (brace yourself, mom!), that even after all this, he wants her back...and not because she's good at all...that has nothing to do with it.  BPDs can overwhelm us with the love bombing, and then, when it is taken away, we are like drug addicts who think we will not be able to replicate that drug anywhere but from the one who was giving it to us and got us hooked on it. 
Just my best guess based on my own experience and the fact that so many others leave this kind of relationship with the same feelings...something is seriously missing and noone can make me feel like "x" made me feel...

[Angie59]

Yes!  What you had to say about him possibly hoping she comes back to him literally makes my stomach turn - with that said I know it could be in his mind. 

Then, I guess the only other conclusion I can come to is he is bold-faced lying to myself and my husband because he says he would never take her back after what she did to him and how she treated him, that we can say whatever we feel like saying about her because he doesn't care, and even laughs at some of her behaviors.  Maybe it's all just a farce? 

Getting back together with her would be devastating to our family as we would have no idea whatsoever how to integrate ourselves back into that situation.  Actually we never did integrate ourselves into the situation - every one just kind of grin and beared it!   I don't have it in me physically, mentally, emotionally or anything else to do it all again!

However, I do certainly hear you and appreciate your feedback!

[Lollypop]

Hi Angie

I’m glad you’re working through this and reflecting.

There’s no expectation to reply to other threads. Sometimes, and this can be long periods!, we can only cope with our own situation and we reach out. I have found that being involved and active, supporting others actually helps me. Take your time and only post up when you want to, rather feeling you should.

I can’t tell you how many books I bought and gave my son in my attempt to “help”. Yes, it’s incredibly frustrating!

We used to ask a lot of questions. Son would get irritated or tell us what we wanted to hear, depending on his state of mind. We used to talk a lot about his problems that were basically our fears for him. To be honest, it was fears for ourselves.

I changed my approach and got light as a fairy. I spoke positively and stopped criticising or judging. This was hard as I’m quite a serious person. It was my first step in emotionally detaching.

I learnt so much by mostly listening and observing. Watching his actions and inactions tells me more about what he’s thinking. This is powerful information, not to act on to try and change their thinking, but can help you empathise and interact better.

Your son appears to wish for her back. It may take some time for things to settle so some patience is needed.

I decided to focus on my own life and start doing things I enjoy. This was a win:win. I got happier, less bothered about my son’s problems and, this is important, I was demonstrating how I put myself and my life first. He wasn’t the centre of my world. He felt that space, I gave him some dignity to sort his problems out.

My son now watches us and he learns. It is possible to emotionally detach to protect ourselves. It’s really important to learn how to do that yourself, so your son can learn how to do it himself. He’ll do it without even realising. Demonstrating behaviours we want to see in others is like magic!

Try to do something nice today, just for yourself.

Hugs

LP

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Angie59]

Hello Lollypop!

Thanks so much for your reply!  You gave me quite a lot to think about there. 

I must admit that you also almost gave me a heart attack when you said it sounded like my son wanted to get back with the ex-u-BPD!  I simply cannot even imagine after what we have gone through for the last 5 years ever being in close proximity to her or her parents again, let alone have them back in the family!  I will also say to that - no control so I might as well as let it go.  I realize it is a possibility but I just can't keep it in the forefront of my mind, as I would surely go nuts!

What you had to say about emotionally detaching really made sense to me.  Sometimes I wear myself out with all the wondering and worrying and it really doesn't have so much to do with my own son as it does with my grandson.  (By the way, the little girl who is 5 whom I speak of is not my son's biological child). 

That brings me to the next subject:  I'm wondering how what everyone may feel about this compared to what I'm thinking.  The 5-year-old's biological father has been in her life since birth; however, the u-BPD won full custody back in 2014, so he could see the baby one day a week and every other weekend, which he did.  My son came into the 5-year-old's life when she was only 4 months old.  I guess the bio-dad got to know my son and at least felt his daughter was in safe hands.  Although their relationship (my son's and bio-dads) was not a close one, they were always very cordial to each other.

Now that my son is no longer with the ex-uBPD, the bio-dad of the 5 year old wants to take on a bigger part of her life because he fears about "how many men will be in and out of my daughter's life," as he put it to my son one day.  The uBPD works on Thursday and Sunday nights at a bar and does not get home until after 2:00 a.m., so her plans were to have my son keep her overnights on those two nights.  Her bio-dad is seeing 50/50 custody which is what my son is also doing.  He had a talk last week with my son stating how much he has appreciated all he has done and how he has treated the 5-year-old as his own and he never had anything to worry about with him.  Now, though (and he has had the daughter in counseling lately), he wishes to not have her spend the night anymore at his house as he feels the less houses she has to stay at, the better for her.  He assured him that all he needed to do was to call him if he wanted to see her and they could easily get together for a few hours, take the kids to lunch, go to the park, etc... and this did not mean ostracizing her from my son.  He just felt it important that he play a bigger role in her life and did not want any more overnights or babysitting her as was her life before. 

This Thursday (after the conversation took place), my son tells my husband and I he is having the 5 year old that evening and overnight as his ex-uBPD has to work at the bar, and I said what about bio-dad?  He said he has to work too. 

Do you think this was right of my son to do?  I have my own opinions but I'm interested to see what you all think about this. 

Hugs to all you great people out there who give your time and energy to helping people like me who are always somewhere between confused and going crazy!

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Lollypop:  Outstanding post.  Thanks for that!

Angie:  My opinion about the 5yrold is, bio dad's goal is right.  IF biodad can really engage with his daughter and take a leading role, the outcome for the girl will be the best of all possible ones.  If your son is not going to be in a relationship with the bpdmom, then his role in the 5yrold's life, unfortunately, should come to a conclusion.  Biodad is there, trying to be there, and should strongly be lifted up by all others to continue to do that as much as he can. 
That said, if he has a relationship with the child now, and the parents needed a place for her to go while they worked, then your son was likely a solid choice for all involved, which is why they worked it out this way.  ...on this given day and at that given time.  It sounds like a solid decision.  Life isn't perfect, and even though there are the stated goals of bio dad, to take the leading role; in real life, sometimes life dictates, and why be rigid to that goal as black and white when we know grey sometimes creeps in?  No harm no foul on the child staying with your son...according to both bio parents and your son...so...let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be...there will be an answer, let it be. (singing the paul mccartney song in my head a little as I write, ...

Get "light as a feather" in and through all this, like Lollypop said...if you can.  Dont overthink every little thing, and understand that what you are seeing is your son, in a process, with these other people.  Great transitions taking place, and all of them are working through these transitions.  I admire (dont be angry) that they are working together, with the children at the front of their choices and decisions.  How it all pans out, and how long it takes to reach the goals...let it be...and in the meantime, there is a lot of good to see here...focus on it if you can.

I suggested that you read my post to another member (if you search my posts) about getting out of a relationship with my ubpdx.  (I think that member's name is seeking30, or something similar, not sure I can find my posts to him while I am writing one to you).  The reason I suggested your reading that post was so you could see what it's like from the perspective of the person who was/is in a relationship with a bpd person.  Your son is doing great, and if you understood the actual impact of love bombing on us, you might better see that...this is why I suggested that.  Your son is working through elements to this break up that you have no concept of...and if you did, perhaps it would help you with empathizing, which might help you not criticize what you don't understand?  Please note that I am NOT saying this to criticize you, but to expand your understanding.  In other terms, I am FOR you here...and only contributing my ideas and thoughts in order to help you through this process you are experiencing as you watch your son go through his. 

When I was trying to leave my 8 yr. relationship with a man who I now believe was an ubpd...I was going through something internally that NONE of the people who knew and loved me could understand.  While the ubpdx was the worst thing for me, we had "two sides" to our relationship.  One was a VERY intense love affair, the other was his betrayal of me, with no ability to accept his responsibility for what he was doing to me.  ALL my loved ones wanted me to get as far away from this man as possible, and with very SOLID reasons why...and even I wanted that, from a very logical place in my mind...but emotionally, I struggled with things others could not understand...even the psychiatrist I was seeing at the time...who would emphatically say every session that I was going to end up dead in the trunk of someone's car if I continued to see this man...and all of this is fine, true and good...logically...but emotionally, I had been strongly love bombed...and noone else on the planet (except maybe another bpd) would "love" me like that again...and it was very hard for me to let go of...if not physically, then mentally...emotionally.  It's not right or wrong...its just what was happening with me...and no amount of reasoning from every person on the planet would have/could have helped me, unless and until they knew and understood that THIS is why I was showing a reluctance (if in fact I felt like I was in a discussion that would actually allow me to be honest and show that reluctance, so that the lines of communication got opened and we could actually talk about THAT!).  In my case, "said person" I could be honest with and process those feelings never came along, and eventually I stopped "needing/wanting" that, and did the break up on my own...BUT...if this is what is happening internally with your son, then my explanation of it may at least help you see why he isn't acting "accordingly."  Not sure I'm right, but if I am?...

[livednlearned]

Your therapist sounds like mine  

She always suggests the hammer approach, knowing that I will probably chip away with a chisel.

Your son has a strong emotional connection with his ex. It's highly charged and the negative feelings simulate a tight bond. As long as his focus is on her, then he hasn't been discarded with indifference. Whatever is going on, it is still some kind of heat and passion, even though it's a fractured relationship.

For her part, she may be feeling, You're garbage but I'm going to do everything I can to keep you nearby. This way, I don't have to look at my own stuff because my attentions are on you, or the other dad, or the new guy.

Three guys and probably more will keep her busy so she doesn't have to reflect on what are probably intensely painful emotions from the past that she cannot discharge in healthy ways.

Your son may not know how to untangle these double messages and sadly, you probably can't say this to him. Not without suggesting he's a dummy, which he won't take kindly to.

Somehow he sees you as the perpetrator or persecutor in the drama triangle (with her as victim, and him as rescuer).

In my experience, when you step out of that role, there is a whole bunch of scrambling in the other two roles because the third leg of the table is no longer there to keep things stable.

Lollypop's advice to be light as a fairy has worked in my situation too. Do you think that's something you can do with your son?

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Thank all of you for your replies.  First of all, I want to address LoveontheRocks where you explain that only the person in the relationship is able to know how that feels since they have had the close experience and relationship with the other person (my son with his ex-uBPD).  Please know, I totally respect what you are saying and I totally believe it!  I have sat back so many times and thought to myself, how in the world do you expect your son's mind to be where yours is when you weren't in that relationship - not in the way he was and he has to see things and heal on his own.  I know this to be a fact of life, although I did not experience a relationship with a person with BPD, but have reflected on instances in my own life where my mom tried  to tell me something or help me see something in her way, but no, I had to see it my way at that time, feel it all my way and do it all in my own time.  So, I do appreciate you pointing that out and again I understand it, believe it and respect it.

That said, where I'm getting "stuck" is my son's actions or inactions, or understanding of some things are directly effecting our grandson, an innocent 3 year old.  So it's like while I know he needs to learn and see things in his own time, by the time he does, things may have already taken place that are not in the best interest of my grandson.  It could be legal things, custody, child support, etc... that he is not seeing correctly right now.  My best analogy is, and it may sound silly, but it's like envisioning him walking with my grandson hand in hand whistling through the grass on a beautiful sunny day, enjoying it all and smiling like all is right with the world, while there is a snake slithering behind them ready to take a bite at any minute.  Unawareness.  When he finally does wise up to a lot of her manipulation, it may very well be too late for my grandson and this is what bothers me.  Should he be on this alone with no children, I know for a fact I could handle this all much better. 

As far as all of the parties involved with the children, my son, bio-dad of 5 year old girl and mom, I beg to differ with you that all involved are looking out for the best interests of the children.  My son is really not seeing it in the best interest of the children, he is just too afraid of his ex-uBPD at this point and finds it difficult if not impossible sometimes to keep her happy and not rock the boat.  These decisions are many times not in the best interest of the children.  The u-BPD mom definitely does not have the best interests of the children on her mind.  I see her and her actions as having all the people in her life (children, new boyfriend, my son, her daughter's bio-dad, her parents, basically everyone) in the periphery of her vision.  She knows they are all there but what she is staring at straight ahead is what she wants for herself and what she benefits from.  It is like all those in her life, whatever relation they have to her, are merely tools for her to use for her own needs.  I realize that sounds harsh, but this is the behavior I have seen occur for the past 5-1/2 years and is still occurring to this date.  So, sadly the only person I see who is looking out for the best interest of his daughter is her bio-dad. 

As far as bio-dad and his feelings of his daughter staying with my son, he plainly said to him last weekend that he didn't want her there for any more overnights but was more than welcome to give him a call and they could all visit together for a few hours.  He does not want any more overnights - plainly said he does not want all of these different "father figures" in her life and wants her to stay at the least amount of places possible.  I think his request is reasonable.  Sadly though, knowing the uBPD, she will not give him days merely at his request, but would rather give her to my son to take care of - the man she just dumped for someone else.  That is not, in my opinion, looking out for the best interest of her daughter.  If he wants to have a good relationship with her and spend more time with her, then why not let him?  I'm raising my hand here and saying, I know!  CONTROL!  She will place him with her ex-boyfriend who she kicked to the curb rather than take her to her own father, who wants her.  If you don't want her with her father for selfish reasons, then why not take her to your mom's (maternal grandmother's) and let her spend the night there? 

I have to add this because I am against my son having the 5 year for a few reasons.  She was just here at our house yesterday.  She was here two weeks ago on Sunday as well.  I feel something is going on with her, have felt that way for a long time, but there are some things she has done that are not normal to me for a 5-year-old little girl and I am thinking we may have to make a very, very difficult boundary for ourselves here and ask him not to bring her over anymore. 

This is very sensitive in nature and I really would appreciate any advice, opinions, knowledge whatever.  Basically she does things of a sexual nature that do not seem normal or appropriate.  Last time she was here she grabbed my shirt and bra at the same time and pulled it down to expose my breast.  Yesterday she wanted to play "see-saw" where our legs are both apart and we hold hands and go back and forth like a see-saw.  The problem was when my legs were open she put hers together and took her feet into my groin area and was moving them around saying "tickle, tickle."  I asked her to stop and told it that I didn't want her to do it again.  Later we played hide and seek and one of my grandson's favorite places to hide is under the covers or grandma and grandpa's bed.  Myself, grandson and 5-year-old all hid under the covers for my son to come find.  She wedged her way between my grandson and myself and began a rubbing motion with her body, again in the groin area.  I feel very confused, uncomfortable, and feel like I need to say something to someone.  My oldest son and my husband also feel these things are inappropriate.  It's sounds harsh to say she cannot come over anymore, but perhaps when we explain why to my son, we are hoping he will rethink taking her, especially with the overnights and request from bio-dad to not do this more seriously.  I feel he could be a target for future allegations.

Anyone - please let me know your thoughts, experiences, whatever.  I am very disturbed by all of this since it just occurred yesterday and don't know the best way to handle it.  Is it possible I'm making too much of it?  It doesn't seem like "normal" behavior to me.

[No-One]

Angie59:
I think you are going to be "shocked", when you learn what types of sexual exploration is considered to be normal for young children:
What's Normal?  Per an article at https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/preschool/Pages/Sexual-Behaviors-Young-Children.aspx :

Here's a list of what pediatricians say is normal, common sexual behavior in 2 through 6-year-olds. When these behaviors happen, try to redirect your child's attention to more appropriate behavior by saying something such as, "Grown-ups do that in private, and you should, too." Reinforce that children should respect each other, and it is not OK to touch anyone else's private parts. Also, remind your child to always tell you or another trusted grown-up if anyone ever touches his or her private parts.

• Touching/masturbating genitals in public or private
• Looking at or touching a peer's or new sibling's genitals
• Showing genitals to peers
• Standing or sitting too close to someone
• Trying to see peers or adults naked

If you go to the above link, there is an extensive chart that rates the degree of normalcy, when children display various degrees of sexual exploration.

Angie59, you should do yourself a favor and cease babysitting (as your therapist suggested).  It would be best to take a break.  You seem to be stuck in a mode of ruminating and catastrophizing.  let it go!  Your desire to control all of them is unhealthy.  

You can't control the parenting plan - not up to you.
You can't control who has custody on what holidays - up to your son & his ex.
You can't control issues with son's ex's first baby daddy.
You can't control if you son sees his ex's parents.

In reading your ongoing post, it appears as if your need to control is picking up steam.  It is very unhealthy and you are perpetuating your anxiety.  I believe that God helps those who try to help their self.  Are you really trying to help yourself?  I think you may be stuck in a loop.

[Angie59]

First off, No-One, thank you for sending the link to the article.  I read it and it was very clear and eye-opening. 

I guess I have not been very clear in what I have written in the past regarding babysitting.  We are only babysitting our grandson once a week.  We do not babysit the 5-year-old daughter of my son's ex-BPD at all.  She stays with him every other Sunday when her bio-dad does not have her and thus, comes over to our house to visit, so that's just twice a month we spend time with her.

Yes, in answer to your question, I feel I am trying to help myself.  I see a therapist on a regular basis, I read numerous resources that are of concern to me on the Internet, including many here on this website, along with reading many books not just related to BPD, but more so related to anxiety issues, control, etc...I'm not quite sure what else at this point I can really do  ----   except of course the proverbial "let it go."

As I explained in an earlier post, I believe my "need for control" is not related to my son as I realize he is an adult and needs to do things in his own time.  However, his decisions will directly impact my grandson and for that I do feel concern.  Yes, I understand that there are many factors here, perhaps all, I cannot control.  Just because you cannot control things does not mean that you automatically are not concerned about their outcome, especially those which will effect an innocent child.

This may all sound like ruminating and trying to control situations, but in my own defense, I don't feel if our family were not dealing with a BPD mother involved and the absurdities and inappropriateness we have witnessed, that we would be so concerned with these things.  Should she be a normal, caring mother who puts her children first, then a lot of this worry would not be present.  However, she is not.

Back to the issue of control - so she is not a "normal" mother, or a "good" mother, and my son does not see things as he should but is still in a place of denial over things, on and on and on...yes, all out of my control. 

I posed this question about the things that happened here yesterday out of concern.  I see that these things may be considered as "normal" for children, but I also take it in the context that they are in "normal" situations and the chart in that article puts the 5-year-old in the green column.  She also has multiple behavioral problems, such as yesterday in a small swimming pool, deliberately kicking out the legs of her 3 year old brother causing him to go underwater and could not get up right away and be terrified for the rest of the afternoon.  Or perhaps taking our dog and squeezing her until she yelps and is hurt.  Or maybe yesterday when we were just sitting here talking and she was apparently just fine and she took the fingers of my one hand and bent them back as far as she could.  When I pulled back and told her that really hurt and not to do that, she laughed, picked up my other hand, and did it again to that hand.  Then laughed and went on to her next activity.

I don't know - maybe I'm just a big control freak - I feel there is reason to be concerned for this little girl, considering all of the factors involved.  While I appreciate your link to the article, that article does not know all of the facts of my situation and her actions. 

Can I control anything but me?  No, and I realize that.  It does not take away the concern and feelings, however.     

[livednlearned]

One thing you could do (for your own peace of mind) is to talk to a  child psychologist about what you are noticing in the 5 year old.

My situation is different than yours but there are some similarities. I have a step daughter who is chronically suicidal and it was my current T who said, Whoa wait a sec. That has to be addressed first. Go with your gut and figure out a strategy to respond appropriately. Someone needs to intervene.

She was also saying at the same time, Time to disengage while staying in contact.

I had to work hard to figure out what path to take with what seemed to me like conflicting messages.

If I were your GS3 or that little girl, I would want a caring adult to pay attention since it sounds like few adults are.

Her behavior may be normal but having a BPD mom probably means the boundaries are not in any way normal and the 5 year old may be exposed to behaviors that are inappropriate for kids.

[zachira]

Angie59,
Children often learn inappropriate sexual behaviors from adults. The behaviors you have described are outside what is considered normal sexual exploration. From what you have shared about the little girl's mother and the child's abnormal sexual behaviors, I think that a report to CPS is needed for the little girl's safety and well being. By doing so, you are also protecting your grandson.

[Angie59]

Thank you Zachira and livednlearned for both of your replies and especially thank you for your understanding. 

[Angie59]

Zachira,

Do you happen to know how CPS works?  I think what I'm concerned with there is, the uBPD mom just moved into a new apartment with her new boyfriend and bought many new things including lots of toys for the kids, the bedroom is fixed up with new beds and their favorite character bedding, plenty of their favorite foods, etc...so by all accounts if they are there and just "look around" it will most probably appear pretty nice.  This is what she is good at.  She gives them "things," she just cannot give them her time, affection, or an emotional connection. 

So do you know if you can make an anonymous call to them as well? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

I sure hope you can report an anonymous call. Your son and GS's mom will be sure to try and figure out who reported them so be prepared for that.

Not sure if this helps...one thing I learned through my son's school when I volunteered is that the sex ed each age group receives is also an opportunity for trained social workers to identify kids who might be at risk. The educators are trained to ask the kids questions, and the social workers (at least in my son's school) pay close attention to how the kids respond.

Is the 5-year-old enrolled in kindergarten? If so, I wonder if you can reach out to the family specialist and ask questions, or share concerns, anonymously.

[FaithHopeLove]

You definitely can make an anonymous call to CPS. I think you should.

[I Am Redeemed]

Where I live, all reports to CPS remain anonymous, whether the identity of the caller is known to CPS or not. The person who is being investigated never finds out who called, though there may be suspicions and accusations thrown.

The way it works here, in the case of suspected sexual abuse, is that the social worker will interview the child at school without the parents' knowledge. If anything suspicious comes up, a forensic interview will be scheduled (usually at a local child abuse advocacy center) and the parents will be notified that they must comply or they will be court-ordered to do so. CPS will also come to the house and most likely drug test the parents.

[zachira]

Yes, you can make an anonymous call to CPS. You can ask them specifically how they will use the observations you give them. I would tell CPS about the inappropriate sexual behaviors and maybe not much more, if you are concerned about reprisals. That is probably enough to trigger a further investigation. You will not hear back from CPS  about what they do find and actions taken/not taken. I would consult your therapist on how to do the report. The therapist may be required to do her/his own report to CPS depending on the therapist's interpretation of what you say  and the reporting requirements for child abuse where you live.  

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338610.0