Will she ever see that it's her and stop blaming me?

[Stillhopeful4]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience with uPDw that can help me understand?

She is constantly telling me that she's put 110% into our marriage and that I am the problem.  I feel like I do so much for her and she doesn't really do anything for me, no that I want her to, but the fact she says she's put so much work in.  She does everything for herself, we only make plans for things she wants to do.  If I suggest something she won't allow us to do it and will make other plans.

She says she's moving out, again, 10th time.  But she says the majority of it is my fault because I didn't do what she told me to do with my kids.  She says "she can't live like this anymore", this is a common thing she's always said.  She would never admit to having BPD, her therapist about 5 years ago suggested she read "Walking on Eggshells"...she did and told me her therapist thinks I HAVE BPD...all the crazy making she does...the constant highs and lows and all the raw emotions, it's so hard to watch her in constant pain.  I want to help her.

We were in couples counseling with a great therapist for the past 3 years (since right before she moved out and cheated on me last time).  We are now seeing  him individually.  I really hope he can get through to her.  She's on a very self-destructive path.  Two days after our blow up she decided she's buying a house, she doesn't have the money and can't afford a mortgage. 

I'm not sure why I want her to stay, she was a great person deep down, when she doesn't have an episode...this cycle is about every 2 years, she leaves for about 3 months, usually because someone "distracts" her.

Maybe I should just focus on me and getting my confidence back and picking up the pieces.  It's just so sad to watch.

Thanks for listening.

[GoodMan]

Exactly. Focus on you. You can’t stop it or control it.

You should find out who you are. Dig deep and get into you. You may find out that you deserve better and want a different life style. You may find out that you love her so deeply that you need to build up a new strong self confident you that can create boundaries and support and deal with the cycles. Research the communication skills that you will need from here on out.

Work on you. You're the only person you can control.

Read everything you can about BPD. There is a lot of great info here and more out there. Stop Walking in Eggshells is a great guide.

Unless she comes to the realization that she needs help it’s never going to stop. It’s a self serving devious disease of the mind that can only be fought by the person who has it.


Keep posting here. It’s a great resource and a great place to vent.

[Stillhopeful4]

Keep posting here. It’s a great resource and a great place to vent.

Thank you so much for listening and replying!  It's so nice to have people listen to me.  I've been her ear for so long, if I ever try and talk about my day or vent about the kids, I get shut down and it turns back into her.

Thanks again!

[once removed]

at the end of the day, the two of you are fighting about who does more, and neither one of you feel appreciated.

i dont think its about "her", or "you". i think the question is can the two of you get on a healthier trajectory. one of you will have to take the first step toward stopping the bleeding, and lead.

[Stillhopeful4]

i dont think its about "her", or "you". i think the question is can the two of you get on a healthier trajectory. one of you will have to take the first step toward stopping the bleeding, and lead.

YES!  But the question is ...how?

[lotusblossom1]

hi guys

i have a similar situation and have thought about the 'how' quite a bit.

i think (and people with more experience, please correct me if this sounds dangerous or incorrect) that you need to show them that you can be vulnerable with them, that you are somehow exposing something that they did not know. and if you share first, then may be in a place to share with you, and then you can really get to talking. if that's what you want.

also i get the "i can't live like this anymore" all the time too. and i feel the same way about my wife too. she is a great person but has deep emotional swings that no one sees but me. remember their sense of self is not very deep, and the distractions are almost a way to 'try on' someone else. just to see if it fits. and it may fit for a time, but then the reality of their situation will eventually catch up. i have been cheated on too, and am not sure how i'll get past it. the whole thing is sad. all of it

best of luck to you -

[MidLifCrysis1]

Hi Hopeful.

I am in a similar situation with my wife. She has never cheated on me or actually left, although threats of leaving come regularly during certain phases.

What is very much the same is the totally immersive existence she lives in wherein the chaos and pain that she brings into the relationship is always attributed to me and all of the effort, sacrifice, and self-pretzel-tying I do for her might as well be replaced with me spending every night getting drunk at the bar.

She's "done everything humanly possible" and "tired of being the only one doing any work for our relationship" and "has lowered her needs and expectations as much as she possibly can" and "can stand how I break our agreements whenever I feel like it" and on and on.

The projection is so alarming and torturous sometimes that I can't even keep listening to her speak. Sometimes she will speak for 20-40 minutes non-stop and virtually every single point that she is mentioning about how bad I am is actually exactly what she should be looking at in herself. It's very disturbing to listen to.

I have no advice on how to handle it, as I am currently seeking the same.
She does not listen and also continually maintains how I am the one who needs help, since my "actions and words do not match" and I "don't listen" and "do not know how to communicate" and "am always angry, aggressive, defensive, irresponsible, cowardly, and must grow up."

Lately, out of desperation, I have taken to calmly pointing out/questioning the instances where she is explicitly and obviously demonstrating behavior that she attributes to me: aggressiveness, double-standards, even simple, direct quotes from her own mouth moments before that are obviously either completely irrational, contradictory, or double-standard.

It has been awful and seems to be doing no good, although there is a sliver of hope. When she's not in a state wherein she is ragingly angry at me, she has bouts of seeming calm and logical discourse. I am able to convey some of my thoughts to her at these times - she does not believe or agree or admit really any of it, but she, at least, listens without flying off the handle.

This approach has placed our daily lives/relationship into a stated of miserable despondence that is VERY hard to live with; but it may be having some small piece of positive traction. It is a shame that there seems to be a pattern that any progress can only be made when things get to a point of truly awful, but that seems to be a common mechanic.

Hope something in there provided some help or insight.

MLC

[Witz_End]

I've had similar experiences.  Recently, but before I realized BPD is probably a factor, I was told "I've worked my ass off for this relationship" and that I had not.  What went through my mind was that there was definitely more I could do and more I should have done, but also that whatever she felt she had worked on wasn't what I needed or had been begging for for a couple decades.  I believe that she does believe that she has worked and tried things, but I don't feel it was as extensive as she thought.

7 years ago, as she threatened to leave me for another guy, when I agreed there were things I should improve, I brought up the feeling that there were things from her end which contributed to our problems.  Her answer was that "anything that may come from my end is a reaction/response to the issues you bring to things - fix yours and mine will go away."  We fought and her anger and stubbornness pushed me into submission.  I spent months focused only on working on myself to save the marriage.  It wasn't something I feel was healthy, but it was what I saw was necessary at the time.

Something that had been enlightening to me... and I'd seen it, but hadn't recognized it as part of BPD... is the idea of the "splitting" and black/white view of people, which can oscillate back and forth in cycles.  As I read, I learn that it is difficult for a borderline (especially where emotion is involved) to apply the idea that a person or situation is not all one thing or another.  It can be like they either have rosey glasses on or dark shades at times.

It came up with my wife recently in a way that was enlightening.  In a rare, rare situation, she recognized the damage she had done with something and apologized.  My response was to accept it, but I instinctively sought to cushion her guilt by adding "I've done this kind of thing to, so I understand and am sorry for the times I have."

To me, it was a showing of understanding and recognition I make the same mistake.  It did not process well with her and she explained that it's like a cognitive dissonance (clash of messages) inside.  It's like a syntax error in her brain to be voicing a "mea culpa" and have the person respond by admitting their own faults.  She can only really process it one way at a time, not as a give and take.  It probably had never come up because it is rare for her to voice ownership of mistakes or issues, except where she can push them back on me - "it was only because you did such and such."

So, yes... it's kind of a wiring for a one way view of where problems originate... and it can be very difficult to navigate, especially when you see that in relationships, really both people bring things to the table they could or should work on.  It's human.  And it can breed resentment when all is put on one person as a unilateral thing.

[Witz_End]

i think (and people with more experience, please correct me if this sounds dangerous or incorrect) that you need to show them that you can be vulnerable with them, that you are somehow exposing something that they did not know. and if you share first, then may be in a place to share with you, and then you can really get to talking. if that's what you want.

In my experience, that's a double edged sword in that it can work in some ways, but does carry a little risk.  But, then, doesn't vulnerability in general?

My wife does appreciate openness and vulnerability and does reciprocate in a fashion at times.  Of course, there is the caveat that it depends greatly on what I am being open and vulnerable about and especially how and when I approach it.  Opening up about an insight I have about myself and my own wiring can be better received when it has less to do with anything she is doing or has done, for example.  The latter has to be handled with much more care, whereas the former can more easily lead to appreciation and discussion about how she works inside.

I mentioned in a post above the explanation she gave about unidirectional apologies and that came out of a period where I had opened up about ways I am wired, which had made discussion to learn about how each of us work possible.  Her sharing in that case came out of it and it helped me understand.

The problem with risk is that sometimes vulnerabilities can be used in anger or manipulation.  Extending trust can do great things and I am not advocating not to when I point this out.  It's more a "be aware of possibilities" comment to factor into personal choice.

As an example, I realized at a point that the intensity of her anger and fights had led to a mechanism in me that sometimes hazes over or blacks out memory of them.  It can take a little bit of jogging or a cue to remember because it's like my mind shuts them away protectively.

I voiced this to her.  Since then, there have been a couple cases where it has felt she has used it against me or taken advantage of it as a vulnerability.  In her "dragon" mode, anything can become fair game, especially if it's to her advantage to make me question my perception of things.

Point is:  it can be very helpful to open up and it may encourage dialog to understand each other, but it may require handling of care in the what and how and when, plus the acceptance that trust may be broken in moments of anger.

[Dave89]

She says she's moving out, again, 10th time...

She's on a very self-destructive path.  Two days after our blow up she decided she's buying a house, she doesn't have the money and can't afford a mortgage.  

I'm not sure why I want her to stay, she was a great person deep down, when she doesn't have an episode...this cycle is about every 2 years, she leaves for about 3 months, usually because someone "distracts" her.

I can relate to this so much. It's like the neverending story, isn't it?  It's like fighting with the wind sometimes, nothing that you do makes any good, BECAUSE of you are not the main problem. At least most of the times. Everyone on this earth has the capacity for at least some evil. It is not possible to stay completely calm and perfect when a storm (BPD anger, rage, devaluation) comes, no one in this world could possibly do that. We are fragile, I tend to believe that nowadays men are actually mentally weaker than many women, it just to be in the sixties that on 100 divorces maybe 5 was initiated by women, now on 300 divorces, 200 could be women. We have so much fear inside of us, losing our loved ones, we do feel the responsibility of helping them, but at the same time we very well know that we have no control over her disease, she has to take steps to improve it, it can even be that we tend to protect her too much of bad decisions and in this way we think we are helping, when in fact we are just delaying personal growth. It would be the same to fix everything when alcoholic drinks and never face their consequences and just live in comfort. We may be emphatic, yes, we may have fear of him or her leaving, yes, but actually, we are helping the disease, not the person we love. I was doing just that for many years.

Only now I came to realize - I need to let her do what she wants, she now will rent an apartment, what she cannot afford, she will use our hard made savings (half of them). She will most likely pick up friends that will use her, she will not set limits so that others will control her thinking, she is very dependent and she will feel like a victim in the end. But I faced the fact - that is her problems, and I cannot fix them or even try to talk any sane thinking into her. I gave up control, I am trying to stop worrying about what will happen. It has taken me a lot to get to this point. And it's not that I don't care about her, it just that it didn't work, not only for a few months but whole 8 years we spent together. I needed to stop doing things that aren't productive, neither for her nor me. And then the emptiness that we often feel when we are alone and dream of our partners coming back and being in idealization stage again, yeah, I had to face the reality, as you say, it will be just temporary, the other cycle will come back as well. So I needed to stop fantasize for this fantastic make-up honeymoon sex we always had at the beginning of another cycle and this kindness and love, now I want to think long term, accept reality.

I may sound kind of critical, but that's where I am now. My wife has never cheated on me (I would probably never forgive her), but she had filed a false accusation for violence last year, that ended in nothing. She may even do it now to try to force a quick divorce, I have no idea, but I know that when she is in paranoia, there is nothing that cannot happen. However, the only thing I do now is to take care of myself and set very strong inner boundaries for the first time. Otherwise, I see nothing but destruction in front of me... I don't know if I will ever take her back now (that begging stage will come most likely, but I am preparing myself for it now). But at the same time, I do know that I don't want any other relationships, I want to be faithful as she always has been, even if we will not live together in the upcoming year(s). We'll have to see how that works out.

[Stillhopeful4]

also i get the "i can't live like this anymore" all the time too. and i feel the same way about my wife too. she is a great person but has deep emotional swings that no one sees but me. remember their sense of self is not very deep, and the distractions are almost a way to 'try on' someone else. just to see if it fits. and it may fit for a time, but then the reality of their situation will eventually catch up. i have been cheated on too, and am not sure how i'll get past it. the whole thing is sad. all of it

Lotus,

Thank you for sharing.  Yes, my wife always talks about distractions and keeping herself super busy as to not think about it.
Yes it's very sad and it's sad that she thinks the problems all lie with me and takes no responsibility, therefore she will never get help.

Thanks again!

[Stillhopeful4]

What is very much the same is the totally immersive existence she lives in wherein the chaos and pain that she brings into the relationship is always attributed to me and all of the effort, sacrifice, and self-pretzel-tying I do for her might as well be replaced with me spending every night getting drunk at the bar.

She's "done everything humanly possible" and "tired of being the only one doing any work for our relationship" and "has lowered her needs and expectations as much as she possibly can" and "can stand how I break our agreements whenever I feel like it" and on and on.

The projection is so alarming and torturous sometimes that I can't even keep listening to her speak. Sometimes she will speak for 20-40 minutes non-stop and virtually every single point that she is mentioning about how bad I am is actually exactly what she should be looking at in herself. It's very disturbing to listen to.

I have no advice on how to handle it, as I am currently seeking the same.
She does not listen and also continually maintains how I am the one who needs help, since my "actions and words do not match" and I "don't listen" and "do not know how to communicate" and "am always angry, aggressive, defensive, irresponsible, cowardly, and must grow up."

MLC,

Wow this speaks volumes to me!  I really thought I was losing it.  What I don't understand is how she can blame it all on me.  Her previous relationships have never lasted more than 2 years.  They never took her back when she left, I always do.  However this is the one thing I find VERY odd.  She said she will never chase anyone and that she will only be with someone that shows interest in being with her.  All of her relationships have been that way, someone persued her.  Also, to add a little monkey wrench to this...we are both women.

Thank you for your reply.

[Stillhopeful4]

I've had similar experiences.  Recently, but before I realized BPD is probably a factor, I was told "I've worked my ass off for this relationship" and that I had not.  What went through my mind was that there was definitely more I could do and more I should have done, but also that whatever she felt she had worked on wasn't what I needed or had been begging for for a couple decades.  I believe that she does believe that she has worked and tried things, but I don't feel it was as extensive as she thought.

Something that had been enlightening to me... and I'd seen it, but hadn't recognized it as part of BPD... is the idea of the "splitting" and black/white view of people, which can oscillate back and forth in cycles.  As I read, I learn that it is difficult for a borderline (especially where emotion is involved) to apply the idea that a person or situation is not all one thing or another.  It can be like they either have rosey glasses on or dark shades at times.

Hi Witz,

I can relate to so much of this.  Thank you so much for your reply.  It's a sad situation but it's helpful to know I'm not crazy and that others have experienced the same or similar.  I don't get it, do they have a play book?  Ughhhh

Best of luck to you!

[Stillhopeful4]

I can relate to this so much. It's like the neverending story, isn't it?  It's like fighting with the wind sometimes, nothing that you do makes any good, BECAUSE of you are not the main problem. At least most of the times. Everyone on this earth has the capacity for at least some evil. It is not possible to stay completely calm and perfect when a storm (BPD anger, rage, devaluation) comes, no one in this world could possibly do that.

However, the only thing I do now is to take care of myself and set very strong inner boundaries for the first time. Otherwise, I see nothing but destruction in front of me... I don't know if I will ever take her back now (that begging stage will come most likely, but I am preparing myself for it now). But at the same time, I do know that I don't want any other relationships, I want to be faithful as she always has been, even if we will not live together in the upcoming year(s). We'll have to see how that works out.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply.  Yes it's a never ending story.  She say's that...she say's it's a vicious circle of chaos and circular conversations that I cause.. I sit there dumbfounded because she's been the one lecturing me and screaming at me for an hour but yet she "cant take it anymore" with MY RAGE... I'm like I haven't even raised my voice.  It's so sad to watch because deep down she is a very nice and giving person, but when this two year cycle comes to a close, the person she is for about 4 months is not nice, she's just plain mean.  It's very hard to deal.  And then there is the fact that we are the same sex so that makes it hard as well.

Best of luck to you when your wife comes back around ((Hugs).  Taking care of yourself is all you can do at this point.  I hear you about being committed to her.  I'm the same way.  I'm not interested in anyone else.  I'm just going to sit back and focus on me for awhile, process everything and see how I feel in a year.

Thanks again!

[lotusblossom1]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply.  Yes it's a never ending story.  She say's that...she say's it's a vicious circle of chaos and circular conversations that I cause.. I sit there dumbfounded because she's been the one lecturing me and screaming at me for an hour but yet she "cant take it anymore" with MY RAGE... I'm like I haven't even raised my voice.  It's so sad to watch because deep down she is a very nice and giving person, but when this two year cycle comes to a close, the person she is for about 4 months is not nice, she's just plain mean.  It's very hard to deal.  And then there is the fact that we are the same sex so that makes it hard as well.

Best of luck to you when your wife comes back around ((Hugs).  Taking care of yourself is all you can do at this point.  I hear you about being committed to her.  I'm the same way.  I'm not interested in anyone else.  I'm just going to sit back and focus on me for awhile, process everything and see how I feel in a year.

Thanks again!

oh yes. all of this.

i don't raise my voice either. i grew up in a house where that did not happen. like ever. she grew up in a house where her mom would randomly talk sh!t about people from the neighborhood and they all yelled and screamed. 5 people sometimes all screaming at the same time! never would have happened in my house even if the world was ending and we were trying to decide what to do. never.

my cycle kinda started/was super amplified when she was pregnant. just poisonous pickiness, miscellaneous rages, etc. And yes, just plain mean. just mean. now I think 'why didn't i say something? why didn't I tell her that this was unacceptable?' looking back over our relationship i've seen that i've been making excuses for her for years - to myself, to my family and occasionally to her family. there's always a reason for her crappy actions, and it's always my fault.

i've been dealing hard with the not being interested in anyone else... this has been very hard, because i'm not really interested in anyone else either. i did have an experience that reminded me that i am a sexual individual, and that I still have a lot of power sexually, and personally. it's not gross but i prob shouldn't detail it here. maybe TMI? sorry! the point is just remember that you are a person that has power in this situation too, and you don't need to be someone that reacts to her stuff only, you can be proactive because you are powerful and would for sure be attractive to someone else out there! just because she's not into you (sometimes or in my case, always) now, it doesn't mean that no one never be in to you ever again. all is not lost.

do you want to be with someone who treats you like this? that's the hard question i've been asking myself.

[MidLifCrysis1]

I sit there dumbfounded because she's been the one lecturing me and screaming at me for an hour but yet she "cant take it anymore" with MY RAGE... I'm like I haven't even raised my voice.

i get the "i can't live like this anymore" all the time too

She can only really process it one way at a time, not as a give and take.  It probably had never come up because it is rare for her to voice ownership of mistakes or issues, except where she can push them back on me - "it was only because you did such and such."

In my experience, that's a double edged sword in that it can work in some ways, but does carry a little risk...snip...there have been a couple cases where it has felt she has used it against me or taken advantage of it as a vulnerability.  In her "dragon" mode, anything can become fair game, especially if it's to her advantage

I don't get it, do they have a play book?

It would seem that they, indeed, do have a playbook. You can see it all across these boards. Every one of these quotes is spot on in my experience - so is like 75% of everything in Stop Walking on Eggshells. If you haven't read that yet, I would strongly suggest that you do.


And Dave89, that sounds horrible. I have no experience with such long-duration cycles that some people seem to have to deal with - I don't think! But it sounds very difficult. Good luck and stay strong.

[Stillhopeful4]

do you want to be with someone who treats you like this? that's the hard question i've been asking myself.

Lotus,

My therapist said these exact words to me last week as I was leaving.  I've been thinking about it all week.  I am better than this!  I know this and when I am sitting there begging her to give it another chance, sometimes I stop and think, why are you doing this...

I have a lot to think about.  Thanks for your input and TMI... it made me LOL!

[Stillhopeful4]

It would seem that they, indeed, do have a playbook. You can see it all across these boards. Every one of these quotes is spot on in my experience - so is like 75% of everything in Stop Walking on Eggshells. If you haven't read that yet, I would strongly suggest that you do.

Funny you should mention this.  Her therapist suggested she read this about 6 years ago...she did and told me it's because I have BPD...I read it and that's when I realized it was her...the thing is her therapist then only heard her side...her therapist now see's us both together and individually, I'm hoping he can help her.

[once removed]

YES!  But the question is ...how?

first, by moving into problem solving mode.

you are, understandably, primarily in "vent about and fix her" mode. as frustrating and difficult as these relationships can be, you should know that that puts you in a one up, competitive situation with her, that pins the onus of the relationship problems, and fixing them, on her. a relationship really cant be repaired from that mindset/approach.

[Witz_End]

I can relate to so much of this.  Thank you so much for your reply.  It's a sad situation but it's helpful to know I'm not crazy and that others have experienced the same or similar.  I don't get it, do they have a play book?  Ughhhh

You're not crazy, no.  At least, I don't think so.  **

A play book... well, there are certain wiring patterns inherent in BPD.  As you begin to understand them, it is sort of like a play book... except that it can be unpredictable exactly which play is going to be played.  Understanding the wiring doesn't allow us to predict with any certainty, but helps us understand how and why things do happen or anticipate potential pitfalls.  It's like reading a team's play book, but still not knowing what play a coach is going to call... you may have educated guesses, but then find yourself caught off guard by the blitz.

[Stillhopeful4]

first, by moving into problem solving mode.

Once removed... I would love to get into problem solving mode!  How do I do it?  What steps can I take?

Thank you!

[once removed]

hi Stillhopeful4,

my apologies, i thought i responded!

I would love to get into problem solving mode!  How do I do it?  What steps can I take?

there isnt a simple answer for this. its easier to think of as a lifestyle change...a mindset. something that manifests in all of your actions. it means being the emotional leader.

what it means specifically regarding your relationship, and first steps, is going to be unique. for me, i was very invested in being right in my relationship, rather than problem solving and solutions. i didnt know what i didnt know, but i was far from an emotional leader, i was stuck in limited and immature ways of thinking. it would have meant letting go of that and seeing things more objectively. more easily said than done for sure.

have you familiarized yourself with the lessons and the tools here? this is one of my favorites (the article, not just the video): https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

[Stillhopeful4]

have you familiarized yourself with the lessons and the tools here? this is one of my favorites (the article, not just the video): https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Thank you Once Removed.

Yes I have been going through the tools, and reading a lot, but I am having trouble implementing.  I don't understand HOW to apply to concepts.  And I'm hoping I can start to figure it out before she leaves.