First Post. Adult Stepdaughter Rejecting Diagnosis

[lovingcousings]

Hello everyone?
I assume the posts go to everyone in the group? If this is not the case, please could someone let me know? Thanks.
I'm normally a very open person. Unfortunately, I don't know how this all works yet, so will be less forthcoming with personally identifying information for the moment.
My adult step daughter has been diagnosed with BPD a number of times. Whenever she receives this diagnosis, she changes psychiatrists. She rejects the diagnosis.
New psychiatrists are like 'fresh meat'. At first, her seduction routine works, but they eventually see through it, diagnose it, she rejects it. Everyone else is to blame.
I am still recovering from a recent nervous breakdown brought on by her behaviour. My wife is still ill.
I'd like to give more information at the moment, I usually would, but she is incredibly devious and I'm nervous that she, or one of her agents will join under false pretences.
I will say that I have had experience as a member of a 12 Step Group for more than ten years. Having people share their 'experience, strength and hope' has been invaluable.
I'll stop for now to see what the next stage is.
I'm in Australia.
Best regards

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lovingcousings]

I'm trying this out to see what it does. My apologies in advance if I am annoying people by using the site in the wrong way. Happy to be told what the proper protocols are. Thanks

[FaithHopeLove]

HiLovingcousingsb]L[/b]
It is good to meet you. I am glad you found us. You are posting in exactly the right way. No need to worry about that. We are very serious about protecting member's anonymity also so no worries there either. This is safe space. It sounds like you are having a rough time with your step daughter. It is not unusual for people with BPD to reject the diagnosis. It is unfortunately a very stigmatized illness. My son doesn't accept his diagnosis either. There is no way we can force them to do so or for that matter force them to do anything. But we can help ourselves by learning communication skills that help us stay centered and improve our relationships with our loved ones. The first step is self care. You mentioned having a nervous breakdown. I am sorry to hear that. What are you doing in the way of self care? Are you seeing a therapist for yourself. Share as you feel comfortable. You are welcome here.
Hugs
Faith

[lovingcousings]

Hi Faith, thanks very much for replying to me. It means a lot to be taken notice of.
Sorry to hear about your own difficulties. Also, thanks for sharing some of your experience with it.
I've a pre-existing condition (not BPD), so for the last 10-11 years, I see a psychiatrist once a month. Expensive, but worth it.
Over the last few weeks though, that's stepped up to three times a week. I'm also reaching out to a friend who had disastrous experiences with a series of BPD folk - until he saw the pattern and got help. Making more human contact by phone too.
Regarding the main protagonist, I've backed right off under advice. For example, "Can you help me with [insert seemingly innocuous request that will inevitably grow like a tumor]"; my response is now invariably, "sorry, but I can't due to pressure of work" (even if it would be easier to help - I'm used to it). I want to instil a new set of expectations - in both of us.
As to the previous, bottomless financial drain... the answer was always yes before (unfortunately, I'm financially comfortable), but as I said, its bottomless. Now the response is to acknowledge the request and say I'll get back when I've checked. The response now is "sorry, but...". Same reason, new habits and expectations both ways.
She tries to drive a wedge between my wife and I in oh so subtle ways. My wife and I have a pact to share any and all contact so that we can't be played against each other. It helps that my wife is frugal and feisty! I'm the softy, which is a recent self revelation (assisted to this point) of acceptance / acknowledgement by others. Don't know if big softy is a medical term - but should be.
I tend to talk and write too much, so at the risk of boring you, I'll sign off.
Lots of love
erm... lovingcousins (I might have to change that honorific / username)

[FaithHopeLove]

It sounds like you are doing an excellent job of self care. I hope you keep it up. You also seem to be developing some good healthy boundaries. No is a very good word. No need to apologize for long posts. That is what this space is here for. Many of us find that typing stuff out is very therapeutic so have at it. We are listening.

[lovingcousings]

Thanks for the reassurance. I'm probably more practiced at apologising for things that are probably not any fault of mine than I am at setting boundaries.
I'm trying, daily, with setting boundaries. I guess it will take a lot of practice, like any new ability I suppose.
This week hasn't been good, but I'm persist.
Thanks for being here.
 

[FaithHopeLove]

I am sorry this week has not been good. Maybe this article on setting  boundaries will help make next week better. I know it helped me.  Setting Boundaries

[lovingcousings]

Hiya, hope you are well - and thanks for acknowledging my difficult week

I read the article as you suggested. There was some helpful information in there for me. More to the point, there were things in there that I know, or knew - which makes me sound like a 'smarty-pants' maybe - but its just that one of the reminders to myself in reading the article was that, for relationship matters, I tend to be both a slow learner and a fast forgetter.

I know this might be a bit of potentially identifying information, but on reflection, I'm one of many in the same situation. I'm an (non-active) alcoholic. Haven't had a drink or a drug for 11 years. The main thing I had to do to get to a position of not wanting a substance, or feel I was missing out, was to almost completely change my values and beliefs systems. I had to get to a state of being, a bone-deep lifestyle where I didn't need a substance to make it complete. In reading the article, it brought back to me that many of the things I worked on to get to that place, I've either forgotten or taken for granted. Mostly though (here's the punchline), I can see that my part in things for the currently troubling relationship, is that I've become addicted to being the rescuer. The same lessons I had to learn then (because it was, without overstating it), a matter of life or death, are transferrable to my current situation.

Aggression is easy; opting for the quiet life is easy; just capitulating to requests that start as reasonable, but become unreasonable is easy at first, but the precedent is set. It took my a long time (lots of practice) to learn reasonable assertion as opposed to aggression. Similarly for the quiet life... it might be uncomfortable to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this", but I've got a duty to myself, my own values, not to be a doormat, to recognise my own right to dignity. The most difficult part for me to change, and the one that relates most to my current situation, is not to immediately say yes to requests for time, money and so on. Sometimes its OK, but inserting a deliberate period of reflection and even on occasion, saying no on those occasions that I can (that's no, not sorry - for example "I can't help you" is probably, usually untrue; however, saying "I won't help" is a world away - and is more honest).

Addicts lie, they have to, since to honestly face what you're doing to yourself and others would mean facing a set of truths that would mean they couldn't continue as they are. The extension to this is that once you're adept at lying to yourself, and lying to yourself about lying to yourself, it is so much easier to lie to others, with the same accompanying delusion of denial in place. Truth, honesty are central to my core values. I can recognise now that I need to dig out - and apply, those lessons again.

I have to assume that everything that my step-daughter says is a lie, or at least a twist on the truth. I don't have to go into the why of it. I've been working with her mum, my wife, to help her with - well, all of the above. This isn't just for the mental and emotional health of my wife, but it's setting a new theme for interaction with her daughter.

Love has nothing to do with it. We can still love her, but as some of the closest to her (there's a trail of 'burnt bridges' in her wake), we're targets of opportunity. The ones who deserve ill-treatment the least are those most inclined to be subject to it.

Less of the fast forgetting on my part! Thanks for directing me to the article.

Best regards, and be well.

[FaithHopeLove]

You seem to have tremendous self insight. I particularly like what you said about being addicted to rescuing. It can seem attractive but like all addictions it really doesn't get us to a good place. I think your idea about waiting before you say yes to your daughter's requests is excellent. It will give you time to think about whether you are acting in accordance with your own values or not. Keep up the good work.
Hugs
Faith

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi LC:  Welcome and as you engage and read and learn other member's stories, at least in my experience, many things will resonate and you will get some comfort just in knowing that what you are experiencing is not as unique to just you, as perhaps you might have imagined.  It's so less personal (as in that negative head talk many of us can have that says... I am doing or not doing things right and the rest of the world handles life so much better than me)...
It's very common for BPDs to refuse the dx.  It's also very difficult to allow them to get into enough pain due to their actions or inactions to actually seek help for their treatable condition, but when we, their greatest allies, allow that to happen, then positive changes can be seen.  So, with that in mind, I have been learning here to change what I am doing.  I can't change my DD20 (diagnosed daughter, 20 yrs old) aka DBPD20 (diagnosed with bpd daughter)...and many of us constantly see that our loved ones dont or wont seek the therapies out there to help them...but as we begin to change...the things that brought us here get easier to deal with, and we find that we have healthier boundaries with our loved ones.  We are all in pain, because their BPD does affect us, often dramatically.

I have a few questions to help me understand your family/situation.
How old is your step daughter?
Is she working (if old enough)?
Does she live with you or on her own? Near or far apart?
Is she a silent sufferer with it (more inner turmoil) or is she outward with it (more rages and outward aggression, etc?)
What sorts of things is she expecting from you that upset you?  Is it the latest and greatest cellphone or is it food and water when she fails to do anything to help herself?  I am trying to get a better understanding of the vaguely described boundaries you are attempting to set with her...not questioning, at all, as most of us know a thing or two about being expected to handle their lives for them since they often dont embrace personal care and taking responsibility for their adult lives and circumstances.
Just trying to get some clearer understanding of your family and what types of things are upsetting you.
Like you, the things that went on in my home led me to near a breakdown, but certainly complex ptsd.  The stress associated with living with a pwBPD (person with) over a number of years took so much out of me that I just wanted, literally, for life to end, because I would have preferred to no longer live than have to live that life I was living.  I am matter of fact and very open/honest...dont be alarmed. These were my "feelings..."...I did not attempt suicide, but knowing this is how I felt on the inside, I knew I had to seek changes...real ones...that changed my circumstances and dramatically.  I am still recovering and trying to set up a life I like and want to live...it's a process.
While we have loved ones that we want to help, IMO, our own lives are important too.  I have a right to set up and experience a life I desire to live.  I am not willing to surrender the life Im given every day to another person, meaning, I value and protect my right to live the life I want to live, and at the end of the day, my DD20 has a responsibility to become a productive member of society and be responsible for the life she has and wants to live.  The fact that she has a personality disorder may give her unique challenges, but that does not, and imo, will not mean that I have to be miserable, making her life happen for her.  I use boundaries with her, and if she refuses to embrace her life, I refuse to then allow that to force mine to be a mess, replete with all her stuff. 

Communicating with a pwBPD can be very difficult.  I find a lot of the articles on this site useful in helping me do that, and in helping me avoid some of the very common pitfalls that happen when communicating with a pwbpd. Certainly reading those articles as well as posts/conversations taking place in the section you are most like (son, daughter with bpd) will be very useful in helping you see similarities and ways we all work out our situations.
Welcome to our family.  We are here for you and each other...and I am so grateful for having us!
(I am also very long winded, it seems.  You mentioned that about yourself...me, too!).

[livednlearned]

Hi lovingcousings,

It's interesting that your adult SD continues to see psychiatrists while rejecting their diagnoses. Like one part of herself is trying to get help and the other is sabotaging it.

This is amazing:

My wife and I have a pact to share any and all contact so that we can't be played against each other.

I have an adult SD (22) who tries to drive wedges between her dad and me, too. She is more of an internalizing, quiet person with BPD, so it took me years to figure out what was happening.

I particularly like the book Having a BPD Daughter by Lobel because he focuses on the family structure. When BPD drives the family, it becomes competitive, and when healthier heads prevail the family structure can function cooperatively. Lobel says that the competitive behavior of someone with BPD is a way of resisting growing up. In healthy families, only win-win outcomes are acceptable. The priority is protecting the health of the family for the benefit of all members.

His belief is that when BPD children get reinforcement for behaving cooperatively and independently, it motivates them to sustain that behavior. If we as loved ones/parents are inconsistent, it can cause our kids to regress. For them, the inconsistency between codependent and independent behaviors gets confusing and keeps alive the possibility that the parent will give in.

I find the consistency piece to be pretty tough!

Lobel says our role is to support independent functioning, not comfort. Our kids have to learn to provide her their comfort so that they are motivated to seek strategies to accomplish this, rather than relying on us.

Sounds so easy when authors say it. So much harder to do in practice.

What happens when you say no to your SD? How does she handle the change in your behavior?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lovingcousings]

Hi Folks (I think this is a Group posting?).

Wow, I've really entered the knucklehead zone. I've got three folks I want to reply to, but could only find one button that said reply, (and couldn't see one that said who I'm sending to - hence my assumption this is a group post). So my apologies in advance, even though some of the folk I'm offering them to may get to see them. So in the sequence they appeared...

FaithHopeLove
I'll have more to share. I noticed somewhere when I was flailing around trying to find what worked and didn't, that you'd made some other posts on a big board of message, so I'll explore that (when I find it again) and get back to you. Thank you for your kind acknowledgement of my reply. A variation on addiction for me... My psychiatrist told me some years ago that I have HDADD. Go on then said I. He said that I find it it very difficult to pay attention, but when I do, its in really High Definition. He probably got it as a line from someone else. So this is 'addiction' as obsession. I can focus in on things, sometimes for days at a time, and the rest of the world goes away. I don't eat, sleep or notice anything going on around me. I've not opted for the catheter approach, so at least I get out of my chair. It's very easy for me to become addicted / unhealthily focussed. Be well, LC.

LoveOnTheRocks
Great to hear from you. You'll also give me the change to demonstrate my unfortunate scatterbrain tendencies. Don't know if I said somewhere else, but I have seven children (I started early) and it's the youngest - she's 24 that is the BPD candidate. I've had a whole range of other matters to deal with regarding the other children, but they were within my scope to handle. This one, not so much. I've done most of the parenting since me wife suffered a serious head injury decades ago and has a hard time with daily living. I love your use of acronyms! I was waiting with bated breath for you to pop out an R2D2 referent. I'm not taking a lend of you, it's a tendency I have too. An acronym I was anointed with - a variant on one you used - was IMLTHO. I used IMO in a group email and someone said that perhaps I should display a bit more humility; so I offered, In My Less Than Humble Opinion (IMLTHO). I pointed out at the same time that what the acronym represented was itself a non sequitur - which caused another round of, well, stuff. As to your questions, I thought about them for a bit, not because I couldn't answer them but to do so would provide 'identifying information' (living with the BPD daughter, I clear my browser history and cookies). She's 24, doesn't work (has had plenty of short term jobs though), lives 20Km away and her moods swing between that of Dalai Lama and Hannibal Lecter. She demands my time, my money (they mostly start off as ever so reasonable requests). I've no time and far too much money - but she would take 10% more than I have if I gave way to her. I can always get more money, but I can't get more time. My only vulnerable point is my wife, so that's that channel she typically uses - taking advantage of my wife's disability to get to me. Please note, this is for explanatory purposes: The reason I'm not short on cash is that if I were to have a job description (I've not been an employee for 30+ years), it would be 'The Too Hard Basket'. When other folk (in business) get stuck, they are referred to me by others that I've done party tricks for. They are in deep doo-doo generally, so I can name my own terms. Wave my magic wand, problem solved. Want longer term involvement? I'll charge a nominal fee but take a share of the business. Funniest one ever was an emergency call (their perspective). The bank were coming at short notice and they had to have a plan to turn the business around quickly. I made a visit (had never been to an engine manufacturer before), went to the boardroom and wrote up solutions on a white-board. Elapsed time, 45 minutes. Thank you so much said they, how can I ever repay you? That'll be $100,000 said I. WHAT? Not a problem said I whilst starting to clean the white-board. STOP! I'll take a cheque, now. It's a long winded example, but it's typical of where my time goes. There are more requests for my time than I have to give. Nowadays, it's mostly pro bono work I'd select. So my difficultly is saying no (boundaries), because I can usually come up with a solution. Despite this, Offspring No 7 has me beat with the BPD, which is why I'm here. The experience, strength and hope that this community can give me - by my own admission, despite her condition, to save me from myself a lot of the time. By the way, I have no desire to kill or harm myself or anyone else, but recently, it's got to the stage I don't want to live either. I understand (I hope) what you said in this vein. Be well.

Livednlearned

Hiya, great to hear from you. First of all, thanks for the recommendation. I'll get the Lobel book, thanks. Her other six siblings will have nothing to do with her, will leave the room / house if she turns up. Will physically eject her from family events she's not been invited to. No texts, phone calls, social media from her or by any of her proxies. I've been a 'moderating' influence up until recently. She caused a series of situations recently which involved the police to a great extent and the courts too. Others have been snared and blamed, that's what happens when I say no. It inevitably then becomes something that eats my time when I have so much else to do - the first of which is to be able to spend time with my wife. When she lived with us, there would have been perhaps ~5 suicide attempts a year over perhaps the past 10 years or so. Plenty of self-harm, eating disorders, raging, weeping, catatonic depression and all sorts of other stuff as the backing track to life for my wife and I. Now she has her own place, but the repertoire has become more externalised, snaring fresh meat (I'm sorry that sounds so cynical, but it's what happens), she will bewitch, bewilder and go through the inevitable stages until the other attempts to leave (or assaults her). That's when the police get involved, that's when I get dragged in - via the initial contact with her mother - who is ill and unable to understand the whole situation, which is invariably threaded through with lies, half truths and misdirection. That's what happens when I say no - what monopolises my time. Many of these events a spookily timed that they coincide with a high workload or being on the other side of the world. I generally travel with my wife when I've business overseas. Sorry for the long winded answer to a seemingly straightforward question. My apologies for that. So there's me, Mr Big Smarty Pants, who has answers for everyone else - except myself. Good to hear from you. Be well.

PS: Dear anyone, every environment has its own traditions and protocols. Please tell me if I need to adjust my ways. Regards

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Lovingcousings
You are doing fine. Everything here is "big board" as you say. If you want to direct your remarks to a particular person do exactly what you just did. Use their name. If you want to respond to a particular comment someone made you can excerpt that part of their post. The instructions on how to do that are below in green where it says "quote box." It's a little tricky but you will get the hang of it. If you need more help just ask.

I appreciate what you said about having HDADD. It helps me understand you better. I can see how that might play into your difficulties saying no to your stepdaughter. You focus on the request in HD and don't step back and look at the big picture that would tell you if saying yes would be good for you or not. Have I got that right?

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Hi Smarty pants (I totally LOVED that description and it resonated with my life as well...on top of my business game and under the gun in my life game!)...
OK, housework first.  This is a message board where say I made my first post and everyone in the group I made my post in saw my post...(child with BPD is a group, romantic relations is another group, and parent with BPD is another group).  We are free to read and write in any of the groups, but know our audience in that section or sub group type.  If you want to speak privately to someone, you hit the "PVT MAIL" tab and are sending the equivalent of an email; otherwise, we all see the thread and talk within it...Your response post to different people by screen name was great...and you are doing it right.

My questions to you can be answered in simple terms, and without too much detail.  ie: "Yes, my BPDSD works" (loved your comments about the acronyms.  When I first got here I struggled with the various ones, and I was using them in my response to you and wanted to make sure they didn't distract you!). Actually, you've answered most of my questions in your responses, so I understand your BPDD well enough now.  She is a lot like mine...doesn't sit and seethe inwardly, but is the more explosive type.  She does live on her own (but what I want to know is, does she have a busy life...as in busy with responsibilities, or does she have too much time on her hands to be destructive)?
Also, no, I am not suicidal or homicidal, ...we both identify with being unhappy about the effects of someone else's life on ours, and how it takes our desire to "live out" said life under the current conditions...that was what I was saying.  Like you, I sought this group in order to figure out changes that would enable me to get back to my own life and enjoying it.

In my case, I (we) have made some very concrete changes that have enabled me to be much happier about the life I am living.  I have put in boundaries.  I have educated myself on what is happening in my DD's head, so I am better able to understand and respond appropriately to her.  As my DD can get so worked up with her BPD as to refuse to cooperate with one of my boundaries which is to allow me to walk away from her and let cooler heads prevail, I actually evicted my DD from my house (not my life! my home!).  She is living in a residential halfway house in our area with other kids her age (17-21) and imo, it's going really well for her.  You can read my posts (click on my name and search user's posts if you really want more information on this...it's all there, and with all this free time you have, I'm sure you really want to research what I've done/not done, right?  ).

I suggest reading the literature here...and really practicing and learning how to implement the suggested protocols.  Just reading the various discussions helps me a lot (read other's threads and the feedback they are given).  It's eye opening on several different levels.  I am more objective about seeing what others are doing that is causing their pain, than I can be in my own situation...as in, I can see they don't have a good boundary in place or are enabling.  Also, seeing others implement various "sayings" such as "become light as a feather," helps me to remind myself to do the same when the outbursts start with my child...I have also learned how to validate her (without necessarily agreeing or condoning...that's NOT what validation is)...

For me, and I strongly believe this, regardless of how much money I do or dont have, my DD has to learn how to become a productive member in society.  I don't do it for her, but am learning how to encourage her to embrace her life.  Without being cheesy or overbearing, she and I are talking about who she is, what she is interested in, some of her goals. She has some of the BPD "typicals" such as severe disorganization, waiting till the last minute to address things she needs to address (if even ever), rumination instead of acting on her life, etc...and there is no need for me to continue to tell her about herself and what she is doing or not doing, so I dont anymore.  I follow up with her every few days on the various things (positive things like job hunting, setting college up, etc).  If she hasn't done anything towards setting up her life since several days ago when we last talked about it, I don't get worked up, I stay light as a feather. This is HER LIFE and her inaction will affect her...and its quite ok to me.  I am to focus on my life...and stay light as a feather when I see she isn't doing what she's supposed to.  We have a nice conversation (sometimes the same one for a month) on the same things.  I show interest in her pursuits, I validate her desires for her life...college/good job...and at the end of the day, I don't take personal responsibility for her actions/inactions.  I KNOW I raised her right, and I know she has struggles which will mean she doesn't flow like I flow, or others flow...and I just love her through each conversation we have and encourage her and reinforce my love for her...but I let her be herself and her unique issues hers.  I have so much empathy and compassion for her...I mirror stability and peace and enthusiasm for her life to her and it's giving her the courage to become who she is/will become, and to be, in the moment, ok with herself and her life.  I see these changes having a positive impact on my child. 

Most of all, BPD is curable...it absolutely is.  The issue is, our BPD child has to want the cure and do the work for the cure.  For us, calming things in our dialogue with each other needs to come first, so that she trusts me and will continue to work with me to work in and for her own life.  So, I am trying hard to take out our conflict and develop a stronger and more trusting relationship.  I don't throw it at her all at once, but have backed WAY off and just enjoy her...having a little a long and along dialogue with each contact we have.  Nomatter what happens, it can't get built up into this explosive big thing...because that triggers my child and she becomes frenzied, so I work to stay calm and help her stay calm in situations that have the potential to be "loaded."
I think I am talking in circles on this post, because my head is all over the place as I think about how it's working and what we're doing.  Hopefully you can follow me and take my comments in small bites...and see if they can be understood.  I tend to write as I would be talking, and without the hand gestures and eyebrow raises and all that other "stuff" that makes face to face easy, I know my writing "talk" can be difficult...but not impossible to understand.
It's going to be ok, and positive changes are going to happen.  WIth this BPD stuff, there isn't a quick fix.  It is more about following slow but positive change over a period of time.  You will learn and you will change the way you interact with her and react/act...and things will slowly start to turn...if not in her, at least in you...but, I suspect, as is our experience, that as you adapt and change...she will, too. ...if for no other reason than you've shaken up the "norm" for the two of you, and she will not get the same trained response from you that she always got...
I feel a lot better and not nearly as responsible for my daughter as I used to.  How good or not good her life goes is much more up to her than me, which is a huge change from the way it was.  I own that I raised her the best I could...I really tried hard...and I give myself credit for that.  The fact that in spite of this fact, she still struggles, is not on me...it's her...who she is, and her personal struggles...we all have them.  It's ok for her to continue to struggle with her stuff, and I am lovingly reminding her that anything she doesn't like about her life and existence can be changed by her, if and when she is ready...but she is grown and these are her choices to make in her life.  Boundaries help me remind myself that I am not HER FIXER (she isn't paying you, she is grown, so let her fix her life or own the consequences if she chooses not to). ...said with love!...to the fixer up guy!
It's a pleasure to read your posts (so much personality!)...I look forward to continuing our journey and I am so grateful for all in this group.  I do feel so much better with the real changes I've been able to make and see in my own life!

[livednlearned]

She caused a series of situations recently which involved the police to a great extent and the courts too. Others have been snared and blamed, that's what happens when I say no.

Meaning, you feel that if you say no, things get way worse?

the police get involved, that's when I get dragged in - via the initial contact with her mother - who is ill and unable to understand the whole situation, which is invariably threaded through with lies, half truths and misdirection. That's what happens when I say no - what monopolises my time.

You feel that saying no then leads to bigger problems?

In what ways to you help rescue her from the crises she finds herself in?