What has helped you as NBPD move forward

[Normlee]

I'm feeling anxious and stuck. I'm reading lots of posts, learning about BPD from other sources and at times feeling overwhelmed by it all. I guess the reality of this disorder and loving someone who has it. I want to stop waiting for the next crisis. I'm on constant alert. I want to communicate better with my son, yet I'm afraid to initiate conversations because of his reactions at times in the past.
I'm wondering from you who have made progress - where did you start? What was most helpful for you?
Grateful you're all here ~ Normlee

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Swimmy55]

Hi Normlee,
Not sure if you checked out some of the readings here on SET , JADE , DEARMAN communication styles ? I am sure others will chip in on their experiences with these.  I really can’t speak on these personally as my adult bpd son was too explosive and dysregulated. Have you also tried the suggested readings from the library on this site?

[Normlee]

Swimmy55,  Thank you for pointing me in a direction. I have read about SET, I hope to get the chance to try it tomorrow in fact.
Depending on what's happening in my son's life he can maintain pretty well. If he's threatened by abandonment or triggered in someway he is in a state where he is only explosive. I don't know JADE or DEARMAN. I'm not very techy but I'll try to locate info on them. I went to the Library here briefly this evening. I'll dig some more. I appreciate your help. Normlee

[Swimmy55]

Here is JADE:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.msg1363817#msg1363817


DEARMAN:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.msg1540836#msg1540836
Pat yourself on the back for wanting to communicate and reach out to your child.

[livednlearned]

Hi Normlee,

I hope I'm not overstepping by saying this, it seems that one thing  that could be contributing to you feeling overwhelmed is going it alone when it comes to your DS38?

I'm in a blended family dynamic, too. Birds of a feather seem to flock together for us. I have a BPD ex husband, and my H has a BPD ex wife. We both have BPD siblings and there seems to be a lineage of BPD in the family tree as well.

It probably shouldn't have been a shock to discover BPD in SD22 but there it was. It is as obvious as daylight to me and others, but to H it is too painful to see. He looks away. Agrees with all the insights into her behaviors but won't say, Yes, it's BPD and she needs our support.

It has made for a strange and sometimes lonely path forward. How to feel emotionally intimate with H on most things and yet a thousand miles apart when it comes to SD22.

We are making some headway.

The best thing to happen was realizing I could have a healthy marriage and be the emotional leader on this one thing. I actually learned to apply the skills I discovered here to H and slowly we built trust, with me being gentle gentle gentle and probably a bit annoying in my persistence.

He can feel anger toward me and love at the same time. I understand his anger -- it is more comfortable for him to feel this than fear.

H is also not one to be very vulnerable, has never been to therapy for himself. I am the one leading leading leading, pulling the family forward toward something healthier. We are a work in progress, sometimes stumbling and falling down and off path but always moving toward healthy.

Your H may also feel exasperated if there are weak boundaries in place. He wants to protect you, and cannot do that if you are not willing to back him up.

Give yourself some permission to try things out and see how it works. Start with a small small boundary, one that you can imagine standing by. Even if it's with someone other than your son. Maybe a coworker or neighbor or even an acquaintance. Pay attention to what happens in your body and how you feel, what your instinct was when you changed that behavior, how you wanted to default back to the old behavior.

I started by learning to end conversations. 

I tended to have a hard time winding down a conversation if I had another commitment. So I practiced. Worked on phrases I could use that my T helped me with. It's now second nature. I found it worked best to start a conversation by saying, I'm going to have to run in 5 min. Glad to see you, how are things going, blah blah blah."

Is that something you feel comfortable with? Bite off pieces you can actually chew 

[Normlee]

Swimmy55,
Thank you for the JADE and DEARMAN links. I just read through both. I'm going to go back and work through slowly imagining how I'd use them with my DS38
Normlee

[Normlee]

Livenlearned,
You did not overstep at all! You nailed it! Right down to my H having an upd ex, to him wanting to protect me, to my lack of boundaries...
It means a lot that you took so much time with your reply and offered doable (chewable) small steps I can take to begin moving forward. Yes, weak boundaries are an issue for me.
I 'am'  walking this out alone. DS38 isn't my husband's son and that might not even make a difference in his involvement. He tends to keep himself as walled off as he's comfortable with regarding being impacted by others problems or issues. Even his own daughters. He cares and gives but from a distance for the most part. Or at least tries to. He has even given to my son.
To help me feel so not alone I need to share (for me) what I'm learning about BPD. MY H may comment or not. At least I won't be feeling like I'm withholding or didn't try to share. However it turns out is ok. I have this place to come to and some supportive friends.
Thank you again ~ Normlee

[hangingon]

I feel anxious and stuck too!  Even after using SET techniques for 16 years, still need to improve my communication with my DD.  which I desperately want to do.  Im going back and reading everything here that remotely applies, and imagining how these conversations will go.

[Normlee]

Looking for some clarity in moving forward with communicating with my DS38. I plan to follow your lead Hangingon in regards to looking up all I can about communication and then writing up a few common scenarios between my son and I.
This evening I get a text from him "Hi Mom". I feel my stomach tightening in knots, not knowing what to expect. Its run the gamut over the years. Tonight it was a request to babysit my grandkids on Thursday night because he wants to start taking his wife out every Thursday night. I'm glad to - it's been a week since we've spent time together. The part that I'm having issue with is "every Thursday night".  FOG starts creeping in. We've been down this road before, where he has a plan and I'm the solution.  I'm a selfish person, not a normal Mom or Grandma that is their right to have...if I don't comply. I have complied before because I took that stuff on and felt terrible. I've offered partial and paid the price and felt terrible.  I get I may feel terrible, that's my junk that I want to get over. The facts are I will be teaching a class every Thursday night starting in September. If DS38 says then lets choose another night, I still dont want to commit to every week even the I adore those kids. I will be having them over for sleepovers, picking them up from school sometimes, watching them if they stay home sick from school... AND I have 3 other grandchildren nearby that I watch occasionally AND I'm a caretaker for my 90yr old Mom 2 to 3 days a week. (I felt the need to say all that to prove I'm not a selfish Mom or Grandma) Sheese.  Ok, I've read something called JADE which I think I was doing here and I believe this doesn't work with people w/PBD. I can construct my message using SET. I can think about validation. Anything else?

[Swimmy55]

Yes , we understand completely about FOG.  Besides SET I can think of these:
1. a.Be honest with yourself firstly on how much you want to take on in addition to being the sick daycare provider, the kiddie sleepover nights, etc.  Do you want to do one evening a month?  No evenings a month? An evening every other week?  Then in a short sentence state "I can be available_____ nights per month. "
 b.He may ask why/ get snotty.  Then state " I am overextended right now (with my teaching- if you want to add an explanation) . 
However ,no long explanations, don't allow him to get you caught up in a circular argument of rant, etc.
2. "No" is also a complete sentence.  I realize that is short and maybe harsh, but it is an option as well. 
Back in the days before my son was too dysregulated for communication with me, I often resorted to short succinct sentences. 
You have to be ok with the inevitable twinges of guilt.  They will come, but be ok with them.    Remember, you not honoring you will cause you resentment  and stress.  Stress can lead to illness. 

[Swimmy55]

Above all, you are correct, you don't have to justify yourself or your life to your adult son.  And yes, you do have a right to your life. No, you don't have to be at your adult son's beck and call.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Normlee]

Thanks Swimmy55 for the encouragement, communication tips and truth that I will feel twinges of guilt but can do it anyway.

[livednlearned]

One of the steps in Susan Forward's book about dealing with FOG (fear obligation guilt) is to say to yourself "I can stand it" when you start to say no.

Because you can stand it. Even if you do this for 10 seconds, then 30, then 60, then 3 minutes, 5 minutes before caving.

You are enduring a difficult feeling that is probably deeply rooted and are learning to rewire how your nervous system responds.

You can stand it 

[Normlee]

Thanks so much L and L
Every tool I use is helping me. I appreciate it and will put it into practice

[JustYouWait]

In answer to your initial question:  THERAPY.

...and this:

 "I feel my stomach tightening in knots, not knowing what to expect. Its run the gamut over the years...  
FOG starts creeping in. We've been down this road before, where he has a plan and I'm the solution...  
I have complied before because I took that stuff on and felt terrible...
that's my junk that I want to get over... "

...could have been written about me.  I'm sure about many others here as well.

The first part (and I'm no therapist, but I've had a great one)...you may be showing classic signs of PTSD.  Before you reject that idea - remove the thought that PTSD is just for soldiers who have been to war, its for people who have very specific physical and or emotional reactions to specific input (in your case, as was mine, it's the phone going off from our kids).  Your reaction (like mine) shows in a clenching of the stomach, and I would venture a guess that there are others that you dont see/feel/know about/realize.

We are going through (Trauma).  The (Stress) is caused during the trauma or after it (Post).  The reactions are not conscious right now (Disorder).


There's actually a lot of good news here:  

1.  if diagnosed, you now have a name for it.
2.  it's not necessarily permanent
3.  there are therapies and training for this to reduce it or remove it
4.  there are also medicines

Please, check out a therapoist if you're not already doing so, and if you are, please bring this up.


I hope you have a great day, and a long weeekend.

I have a whole nother screed reday about boundaries for you.  I also learned it in therapy.


Can you tell I'm a big fan of therapy for yourself?




you're not alone.



-jyw

[Swimmy55]

Very helpful post, JYW...

[FaithHopeLove]

This is a brilliant thread. I am taking notes.

[cbusmom]

This is a brilliant thread. I am taking notes.

Me Too!
I am so grateful that I found these boards!

[Normlee]

Thank you JYW,  yes, I have been diagnosed with PTSD. I have been in and out of therapy for a long time. Right now I'm out as I'm paying for my DS38's therapy. I've see that it's helping him and he is applying what he's learning. I know I need to practice better self care. This board and another group is mt "therapy" right now. I'll be looking forward to hearing about what you post on boundaries.
I just got done chatting with my son. I'm trying to use SET. Sometimes I can't think of more Support or Empathy phrases. It's new to me, I'm sure I'll get plenty more chances to practice. Today is one week since he moved in with us. It's a bad day emotionally for him. He's had his 8 yr old son with him overnight and is now picking up his 14yr old daughter who will also spend the night. We'll be celebrating her birthday. My son has been trying to keep positive. Today he's depressed and angry. He's living in our basement room that has it's own bathroom and a small fridge. There6a brand new sofa bed and a tv... He has neck and back problems and is in pain. He's on Worker's Comp for his neck injury and no job to support him living on his own in an apartment. This is supposed to be a temporary place to get back on his feet. We're not giving him an end date at all though I shared with him it would be nice if he had his own place before a year is up. That has been good with him. For today he's feeling stuck in a tiny room, on a fold old bed that kills his back, no money to do anything with his kids. Saying he'd rather be homeless than live here. I'm at a loss as to how to respond and tired of the roller coaster. I'm learning to ride it but- it is not fun! Any thoughts friends. My Mom's heart keeps breaking

[Normlee]

I just want to add a little more. The Birthday party fell through. My granddaughter was triggered by her Dad being tense. Reminders of his past raging days I think. She broke down and hid in the bathroom until her Mom came to get her. I hurt for her she suffers from depression and anxiety. She's lived through some rough times. My son was upset and hurt. It blows me away how at first it's always poor me. He vented awhile with me. Not screaming, just very upset. Latet he text me and took some responsibility that his behavior in the past caused this and she needs time. I've had it pretty easy for awhile with him not living with me. The changes, dips, blaming others... it's hard to hear. Thanks for being a shoulder to cry on. Normlee

[FaithHopeLove]

I am so sorry your grand daughter had such a lousy 14th birthday party
 This whole situation is so hard for everyone. Have you thought more about what boundaries and ground rules might help you all get through this time of having your son living with you?
Hugs
Faith
 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Normlee]

Thank you Faith. I brought my beautiful granddaughter her gift and a big hug today.
I've thought a little about boundaries and limits. A couple we started off ok with. He does his own laundry. Last time around I took it on because I felt bad for the pain he was in. Also he's to join my husband and I for dinner or come up a fix a plate if he comes in later. Last time he rarely ate with us and I brought hot plates to him.
I know I'm my own worst enemy.
I don't want to be sleeping, actually checking my phone all night if he's having a bad night with anxiety. I feel crummy saying I know you feel like you're going to die but you're not and this expecting me to go without sleep so you feel safe isn't working.
It's been a week since he was told to leave. I know he is still reeling. He does go to the office some hours each day, he's  not getting paid but he is trying to learn a new profession that won't injure his neck. The scary thing to me that I have no control over is how much he really pushes himself to get on his feet. He has depended on his wife to carry the heavy load. I think I'm the one who needs to accept reality. I'm hoping with therapy, my finally beginning to be honest about many things that he'll get better and see clearer instead of being the poor victim in every situation. I love him, he can be funny and charming and even reflective. But a relationship with my DS38 is about him first and how it affects him. For example he was so hurt his daughter was triggered being around him and didn't even want to say goodbye. or text I love you. What about him he says, he hardly gets to see her now and he didn't do anything wrong yesterday and now he's the bad guy. His daughter and ex are a##holes... It's very often like that in the beginning of a situation. I talked to him using set - the truth was in the past for many years his rages were terrifying to her. She has significant depression and anxiety now. She needs to come first, she's the child. Honoring her is love for now...
It took a couple hours and him having conversations with his ex and he backed down from it being all about him and her needing time.  One boundary needs to be my limiting how much I listen to. He can be engulfing when he's in that space. I think I'm kind of scared of boundaries and considering them. He used to rage so much. Now he's intense... It's hard. I have a younger son nonbpd 34 yrs. He has a hard time with his brother because of the lopsidedness of the relationship. Thanks for the space to get all this out. I needed to.

[FaithHopeLove]

It sounds to me like you are really taking responsibility for your own behavior, the only thing you can change, and beginning to put together some healthy boundaries. I know what you mean by feeling engulfed in their neediness. You just can't live in that space. You need your sleep and your own sense of well being. I am betting therapy is going to help a lot. You can do this. You can make the changes you need to make to put yourself in balance.
Hugs
Faith

[Lollypop]

Hi normlee

I’m late to this party, hope I can join in.

I found Boundary and limit setting so incredibly difficult at first. My approach was to have none at all and see how it went. I was so fearful because son was very depressed. I didn’t want to make things worse. I saw boundary setting as a negative and couldn’t see how critical it is. I had to flip my head around and understand relevant and realistic boundary/limit setting was going to help our relationship and pass over responsibility for his behaviour to him.

Doing laundry is a “limit” - it refers to normal day to day living. These are flexible because we all have bad days. I left my adult son to do his own washing. But if I saw he was having a particularly bad day I’d do something nice for him - a small practical gesture  (never money).  I didn’t have limits around eating together as I felt it should just come naturally which it did because I focussed on my number 1 priority - to have a healthier relationship with him (I learnt how to better interact with him and I can see your learning some new techniques. Mostly though, I just listened, watched and validated and thensome).

I used to do a kind of dance around my son28 when I was enforcing a boundary or requesting a limit. I’d never refer to these by name by the way because that would irritate son. As long as my son felt whatever I was asking of  him was Fair he agreed. It would then take 5-6 attempts  for it to stick for him. I needed to use my skills to remind him of our agreement. This is a healthier way of approaching things.

As tiny things improved my confidence and backbone grew.

I know I need to practice better self care

Absolutely!

Dealing with our adult bpd children is a balancing game where we need to learn how to do everything all at once,. It can be overwhelming but taken in small bite sizes you’ll be amazed what can be achieved. It takes many small baby steps.

By putting yourself first you will show your son what taking care of oneself looks like, he can learn from you. How does “taking care of yourself”  look like to you normlee?  I still struggle,  always finding something or someone else to focus on - like I’m not worthy or something.

I think you’re doing brilliantly.

LP

[Normlee]

LP - I am so glad you jumped in. Knowing someone else struggled too gives me hope for myself. Hearing it took 5 or 6 attempts helps me not be discouraged. Thank you.
I appreciate direction to begin to learn about the difference between limits and boundaries. I have my work cut out for me.

[Normlee]

LP - I am so glad you jumped in. Knowing someone else struggled too gives me hope for myself. Hearing it took 5 or 6 attempts helps me not be discouraged. Thank you.
I appreciate direction to begin to learn about the difference between limits and boundaries. I have my work cut out for me.
( Sheese, even navigating this site. I typed a long reply and deleted most of it. Not sure how. More to learn.

[Normlee]

You're so right LP, dealing with my son living with me again is overwhelming at the moment. I feel like I'm trying to concentrate and act while the ground is constantly shifting under me. So for the moment I'm under a shade tree enjoying a beeeze. I've been looking up limits and boundaries. Needing clarity.   Normlee

[LoveOnTheRocks]

JustYouWait

OUTSTANDING !

[JustYouWait]

"I'll be looking forward to hearing about what you post on boundaries."

Here we go, and remember - I am not a therapist.  What worked for me may not work for you.  Take any part of this advice and apply what works, and throw the rest out.  This is not a requirement.

So, about boundaries - I was struggling mightily with my DD18, FOG was a big part.  I was scared of what would happen if I didn't ride in on my white horse and save the day (Fear), I felt like her disease and actions were my responsibility because she is my daughter and we protect (Obligation), and I felt responsible for her having the disease in the first place (Guilt).


(see...you're not alone in those feelings, either)


So, my therapist asked me some pretty blunt questions:


-Are you your daughter? (no)
-Do you make up her mind for her (no)
-Are you going to be responsible for the consequences of her decisions? (no)
-Can you control what she thinks and does (clearly not)
- Have you told her what will happen if she breaks a rule? (rules?  what are those?)

Her point was to get me to understand that I can't control her, but I can control me, my decisions, my reactions, and most importantly, i can control MY WORLD.

She got me to think of it this way:  picture a castle (or a house, or a mansion, or an island, etc) surrounded by a mmoat, or other water.  This place is accessable only by drawbridge or through a gate in a very tall fence.

You are inside, and you own the place.  You control the lever that lets the drawbridge down or the gate open.  You are not required to let anyone else in.

Congratulations.  You now have a boundary.

This may seem odd, but stick with me.  Your son, like my daughter is allowed in only if and when youn decide to let him in.  All other times, this place is a sanctuary.  It is where you rest, and heal, and read, and sleep, and whatever else you do that brings you peace.

Any time other than when he is invited int the place is viewed as an attack (aggressive word, but necessary to get into the mindset).

You set the rules for entrance.  These rules are your boundaries.  They can be small ones (I will not be doung any of your laundry, so please refrain from adding your clothes to my wash pile), or I will not discuss anything with you between 7:00-7:30 pm, when I am watching Jepoardy) to large ones (I will not bail you out if you get arrested) to meduim ones (I will not engage in conversation with you if you are yelling at me, or you must ask me if I am willing to talk to you before starting a conversation).

The "Jeopardy" one was a real one in my house...I kid you not.  So was the "ask before starting a conversation".

The thing is...BPD'ers tend to understand rules.  My kid would literally be waiting for Final Jepoardy to be asked and answered before she asked ti sit down and talk.  It was a small but very important victory.  It took my power back.  My control.  My world.

For the record, I was a big fan of "The Walking Dead" at the time and the mental picture of the place in my head was "The Hilltop"  Google it.  You'll see what I'm talkling about.


Once you start making statements like "I will no longer..."   "What I will need before X is for you to do Y...", or if you start using if/then statements, CONGRATULATIONS, you are setting boundaries.


I know this is a little rambling, but I needed to get it out fast wheile I was thinking about it.



Oh, and the really hard part isn't setting the boundaries.  It's enforcing them, so be sure you're willing to back up the staement with action or non-action.  It sounds all big and bad to SAY you won't bail them out.  It's whole nother thing to sit there and not go to the jail when you're kid is sitting in there.





Youre not alone.


-jyw

[Normlee]

JYW,  Thanks for taking the time to post all you did. To have specific examples of limits and boundaries and to consider for myself your therapist's questions... makes all the difference in my learning and applying.
My whole life with my bpd Dad. Bpd ex, and bpd son I have been running to prevent drama and disasters. My internal voice for a long time was that of chicken little Screaming to whoever would listen that the sky is falling. Over the last 4 yrs especially I have made progress in separating emotionally somewhat  from my DS38. I need to go further now especially he's living with me. I'm going to print your therapist's questions to you where I can easily read them and get clarity in situations with my son. I believe their answers will help.
I did Google the walking dead hilltop and it does give me a visual of a boundary to my own castle. Thank you again. You've given me a lot to chew on today.  Normlee