Low and Struggling

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

You know those points where you think to yourself cynically, "I should have known better"?  I'm there.  Frustrated, alone, questioning whether I can do this.

No, there was no blow up, no rage, no fiery argument, no flipping out and suicide gestures.  But, sometimes being nose deep in the reality can be enough.

I laid down to sleep a little after 3am last night.  Lately, I have had trouble getting to sleep sometimes till around dawn, which had meant sleeping way into the day.  Work is a weekend thing and is usually through the night, so really what I am experiencing is inability to shift to a day schedule, rooted in probably a couple factors that drain me, depression included.

4am rolls around and I was so close to drifting off before a thought popped into my head from left field.  No idea why.  The start of a rumination about an aspect of things between her and another man as it was when she was looking at leaving me for him.  "Oh  ," I thought, realizing it'd mean no sleep.  So, I solved it a way I know isn't healthy.  As much as I prefer melatonin, we didn't have any.  But, I do have norco, so one glass of wine and a norco and a little time here on the boards, then off to sleep.

Around 9am, I woke.  I could feel it... the depression, the hurt, the feelings about that period that had popped into mind the night before.  Prevalent in my mind, but stacked on top of everything and weighing me down. I knew I'd have to motivate to work on a house I am fixing up for us to move into, yet there was the drain and a feeling I could burst into tears at any moment, hurt wanting to spill over and out.  How could I work like that?

I told her I was having a rough day emotionally and she offered I could talk.  I haven't felt safe for years, which is why so much is packed away inside that it's built into depression... and yet, I've also been blamed for not talking.  I voiced some reserve, saying I was concerned it might lead to a fight and that I really wasn't in a place to be able to handle a fight.  But, she assured me she was in a place where she felt on even ground... and I have seen signs she'd stabilized from recent turbulence.  Plus, I just needed to be able to let it out.  I accepted her offer and went out on a limb.

During a kind of pre-conversation, she voiced that she loved me so much that she would walk through hell with me, if need be.  I acknowledged and told her I really truly believed that that was how she felt, but that there were some trust things related to that... that she really believed it and meant it from her heart now, but that twice she had become so wrapped up in the negative view of things (long splitting periods, though I avoided the term) and had twice been on the way out the door.  As heartfelt as I recognized "walk with you through hell" is, it's difficult not to wonder what happens... will there be a next time?  Another round with the same guy?  Another leaving me?

Going into talking about it, I brought up how far things had gone down that path this past time, which is what had popped into my mind last night.

First, I've mentioned a couple times here that we are (predominantly she is, as I don't romantically involve myself with others by personal choice) polyamorous.  Even with that, some things can be out of bounds and considered an affair - there can be boundaries.  She had rekindled things with him, kept them secret by not telling me even as things heated up past what she called a "point of no return" seriousness.  Meanwhile, in the midst of her telling me she questioned us staying together, my telling her I was struggling with that too and us agreeing maybe we needed to step back and relearn friendship... she let it out over a series of conversations...

He was her boyfriend, that was non-negotiable because it was past a point of no return, he had said he would move from out of state and they had discussed possibly moving in together... it was that serious.

I did not flip out.  We'd kinda been there before.  I set aside my feelings and soldiered forward to save the marriage, which was on pause at the moment.  Yet, as we were reading back in, there was a night where she (and I) felt we needed the closeness of sex, so we had sex and afterwards, I joked, "It's funny.  I'm kind of on the other end of things... the outside guy... like I need your boyfriend's permission to have sex with you."

Then the reality of the joke hit.  It stung.  And her response was a sympathetic and somewhat sad confirmation that, yes, that was the situation.  He was her boyfriend, I was the "outside guy" and if he was not comfortable with it, sex between us was off the table.

I swallowed it.  At the same time, I recognized we would eventually need to talk about it and the fact that I saw both of these iterations with him as affairs... one intermittent affair, actually.  This was that conversation, but it did not get far...

I started to voice that thought... that hurt from the night before, remembering she had secretly let things get to that point where HE had say over whether we had sex, because he was her primary relationship.

As insistent as she was she could talk, right there she stopped me with an incredulous look and asked me when she had ever said that, demanding to know what words she used.  Right away, I felt unsafe and told her I felt resistence...  that she was more intent on questioning what I remembered than really listening and hearing what's inside me.  She returned by saying that she was entitled to her perception.  I agreed that she was, but said that when someone is hurt, their perception is important and should be heard.

I could see it forming.  That battle of whose perception was correct.  Nevermind a man really doesn't forget how he is told by his wife that it's true that her boyfriend has say over sex... that's something that sticks pretty clearly in memory.  And I knew on her end, I was battling the revision of her perception to avoid guilt.  I wasn't going to get past that, so what's the point?

I stopped the conversation right there.  Reality hurt.  The reality of the BPD.  She can't help the mechanisms inside, but there it is.  How can I talk to her about my hurts?  How can I let out these things I've held onto?  Yes, with a therapist or a friend or here, I can... but what when they're things I feel a need to work through with her?

But, something else happened and I wonder about my own paranoia here...

Walking into the shed where we talked, I warned her about a step that had loosened recently on the right side.  She had not, to my knowledge, come out to the shed since.  Yet, she said she knew about it when I warned her.  She does not go out there for any reason other than to look for me, but she also knows when I'm out there... and when I am not.

"Oh.  Had you come out looking for me?"  I asked.  "Ummm... I don't remember what I was doing out here," she said.

It crossed my mind... she knows that lately I have been writing out a lot of my feelings to be able to organize them and later present them to her (something I had stopped once I realized about the BPD).  She would guess and guess right that I keep them in the shed, which is where she knows I write.  It crossed my mind to wonder if she had come out at a time she knew I wasn't there (hence knowing about the step) to look for them.

The shed is also where I keep "Stop Walking on Eggshells" tucked away hidden behind some things, out of sight.

Before leaving, after our conversation went awry, she made a comment to me.  "I feel like you expect me to say specific things and if I don't, I'm wrong.  It feels like... I'm walking on eggshells."  These last words sounded set off and slightly emphadized...  but was that just my perception?  Is there coincidence to her choice of words being the title of a book hidden there in a shed she had come out to when I wasn't around to do "I don't remember what I was doing"?  Had she been looking for my writing about my feelings and found it?

I showed no reaction and just replied that "it's not about expecting you to say anything... when I'm voicing something that's hurt me, it just doesn't work for being able to voice it if it's being turned into a battle of whose perception is right."

I left for the house I have been working on, relocating both books and my writing, which will need to be hidden here now, even as I wonder if I'm just being paraoid.

[Witz_End]

You know those points where you think to yourself cynically, "I should have known better"?  I'm there.  Frustrated, alone, questioning whether I can do this.

No, there was no blow up, no rage, no fiery argument, no flipping out and suicide gestures.  But, sometimes being nose deep in the reality can be enough.

I laid down to sleep a little after 3am last night.  Lately, I have had trouble getting to sleep sometimes till around dawn, which had meant sleeping way into the day.  Work is a weekend thing and is usually through the night, so really what I am experiencing is inability to shift to a day schedule, rooted in probably a couple factors that drain me, depression included.

4am rolls around and I was so close to drifting off before a thought popped into my head from left field.  No idea why.  The start of a rumination about an aspect of things between her and another man as it was when she was looking at leaving me for him.  "Oh  ," I thought, realizing it'd mean no sleep.  So, I solved it a way I know isn't healthy.  As much as I prefer melatonin, we didn't have any.  But, I do have norco, so one glass of wine and a norco and a little time here on the boards, then off to sleep.

Around 9am, I woke.  I could feel it... the depression, the hurt, the feelings about that period that had popped into mind the night before.  Prevalent in my mind, but stacked on top of everything and weighing me down. I knew I'd have to motivate to work on a house I am fixing up for us to move into, yet there was the drain and a feeling I could burst into tears at any moment, hurt wanting to spill over and out.  How could I work like that?

I told her I was having a rough day emotionally and she offered I could talk.  I haven't felt safe for years, which is why so much is packed away inside that it's built into depression... and yet, I've also been blamed for not talking.  I voiced some reserve, saying I was concerned it might lead to a fight and that I really wasn't in a place to be able to handle a fight.  But, she assured me she was in a place where she felt on even ground... and I have seen signs she'd stabilized from recent turbulence.  Plus, I just needed to be able to let it out.  I accepted her offer and went out on a limb.

During a kind of pre-conversation, she voiced that she loved me so much that she would walk through hell with me, if need be.  I acknowledged and told her I really truly believed that that was how she felt, but that there were some trust things related to that... that she really believed it and meant it from her heart now, but that twice she had become so wrapped up in the negative view of things (long splitting periods, though I avoided the term) and had twice been on the way out the door.  As heartfelt as I recognized "walk with you through hell" is, it's difficult not to wonder what happens... will there be a next time?  Another round with the same guy?  Another leaving me?

Going into talking about it, I brought up how far things had gone down that path this past time, which is what had popped into my mind last night.

First, I've mentioned a couple times here that we are (predominantly she is, as I don't romantically involve myself with others by personal choice) polyamorous.  Even with that, some things can be out of bounds and considered an affair - there can be boundaries.  She had rekindled things with him, kept them secret by not telling me even as things heated up past what she called a "point of no return" seriousness.  Meanwhile, in the midst of her telling me she questioned us staying together, my telling her I was struggling with that too and us agreeing maybe we needed to step back and relearn friendship... she let it out over a series of conversations...

He was her boyfriend, that was non-negotiable because it was past a point of no return, he had said he would move from out of state and they had discussed possibly moving in together... it was that serious.

I did not flip out.  We'd kinda been there before.  I set aside my feelings and soldiered forward to save the marriage, which was on pause at the moment.  Yet, as we were reading back in, there was a night where she (and I) felt we needed the closeness of sex, so we had sex and afterwards, I joked, "It's funny.  I'm kind of on the other end of things... the outside guy... like I need your boyfriend's permission to have sex with you."

Then the reality of the joke hit.  It stung.  And her response was a sympathetic and somewhat sad confirmation that, yes, that was the situation.  He was her boyfriend, I was the "outside guy" and if he was not comfortable with it, sex between us was off the table.

I swallowed it.  At the same time, I recognized we would eventually need to talk about it and the fact that I saw both of these iterations with him as affairs... one intermittent affair, actually.  This was that conversation, but it did not get far...

I started to voice that thought... that hurt from the night before, remembering she had secretly let things get to that point where HE had say over whether we had sex, because he was her primary relationship.

As insistent as she was she could talk, right there she stopped me with an incredulous look and asked me when she had ever said that, demanding to know what words she used.  Right away, I felt unsafe and told her I felt resistence...  that she was more intent on questioning what I remembered than really listening and hearing what's inside me.  She returned by saying that she was entitled to her perception.  I agreed that she was, but said that when someone is hurt, their perception is important and should be heard.

I could see it forming.  That battle of whose perception was correct.  Nevermind a man really doesn't forget how he is told by his wife that it's true that her boyfriend has say over sex... that's something that sticks pretty clearly in memory.  And I knew on her end, I was battling the revision of her perception to avoid guilt.  I wasn't going to get past that, so what's the point?

I stopped the conversation right there.  Reality hurt.  The reality of the BPD.  She can't help the mechanisms inside, but there it is.  How can I talk to her about my hurts?  How can I let out these things I've held onto?  Yes, with a therapist or a friend or here, I can... but what when they're things I feel a need to work through with her?

But, something else happened and I wonder about my own paranoia here...

Walking into the shed where we talked, I warned her about a step that had loosened recently on the right side.  She had not, to my knowledge, come out to the shed since.  Yet, she said she knew about it when I warned her.  She does not go out there for any reason other than to look for me, but she also knows when I'm out there... and when I am not.

"Oh.  Had you come out looking for me?"  I asked.  "Ummm... I don't remember what I was doing out here," she said.

It crossed my mind... she knows that lately I have been writing out a lot of my feelings to be able to organize them and later present them to her (something I had stopped once I realized about the BPD).  She would guess and guess right that I keep them in the shed, which is where she knows I write.  It crossed my mind to wonder if she had come out at a time she knew I wasn't there (hence knowing about the step) to look for them.

The shed is also where I keep "Stop Walking on Eggshells" tucked away hidden behind some things, out of sight.

Before leaving, after our conversation went awry, she made a comment to me.  "I feel like you expect me to say specific things and if I don't, I'm wrong.  It feels like... I'm walking on eggshells."  These last words sounded set off and slightly emphadized...  but was that just my perception?  Is there coincidence to her choice of words being the title of a book hidden there in a shed she had come out to when I wasn't around to do "I don't remember what I was doing"?  Had she been looking for my writing about my feelings and found it?

I showed no reaction and just replied that "it's not about expecting you to say anything... when I'm voicing something that's hurt me, it just doesn't work for being able to voice it if it's being turned into a battle of whose perception is right."

I left for the house I have been working on, relocating both books and my writing, which will need to be hidden here now, even as I wonder if I'm just being paraoid.

[Cat Familiar]

Whether or not you're being paranoid, you are being smart, relocating that book and your writing where she cannot access them.

You are in a very unsupported place, being married to a woman who is putting the primacy of her feelings upon a relationship with a boyfriend.

Meanwhile, you are working on a house to fix it up to live with her, yet she's considering living with him.

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, what keeps you motivated to remain in a relationship with someone who is not treating you with equal respect?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear WE-

I am so so sorry... true depression (at least for me) often hits and takes hold when nothing “dramatic”, at least in the orbit of BPD living, has taken place.  It’s quieter then and seems since you’re not fighting for survival, you have a chance to actually “feel” something.  Again, I’m sorry.

Starting with your question about whether you’re being paranoid about her entering the shed and finding your writings and the SWOE book... I believe you’re correct.  I’m pretty certain your W found your book, but it’s unlikely she read your writings or you would have gotten an earful.  She likely spent too much time looking at the book.  I’d be certain to delete your browsing history (if you share devices) to be sure she doesn’t “follow” you here.   

In my experience with an exH  (bad man - uNPD with BPD traits) and uBPDbf (good man)... both are “snoops” and liars.  ExH (bad man) lied about things that were harmful, could hurt me, and were pretty easy to learn about.  UBPDbf lies about silly things that don’t “hurt” me, but make him appear childish; and that are easily caught.   UBPDbf’s lies are not damaging to me.  I also write, but now do it on my iPad.  I figure if my uBPDbf finds my writings and reads them, he does that at his own risk. 

He’s free to ask me what I think, how I feel, and I’ll tell him the truth.  But sadly, pwBPD seem to have a problem listening to us, even when we ask for that ear.  I’m sorry your W was unable to give you that kindness.  It seems that there is only space for one set of feelings in these relationships (most of the time).  Getting to the place of being truly heard can be done, but it takes a LOT of work and a very special moment.  And if there’s any chance of “blame” or sense of finger pointing, it’s unlikely to happen.  Perhaps your W will have a moment of insight and come back to you later?  I hope so.

I’m a bit confused about your relationship and the timing of things.  Is your W currently involved with this other man?  Since I’ve not known anyone who’s engaged in polyamory before, I’m not certain how that’s “supposed” to work.  Can you please explain the general “rules” or guidelines as they relate to you and your W?   I’m a sexual abuse survivor, so sex to me is not an intimacy determinant.  Absolutely NO judgement.

Eventually, at some point, your W will need to hear your understanding, your perception... especially if you make a decision about your life.  It may be too late for her input at that time.  Again, her shutting you down may end up hurting her in the long run.

I look forward to hearing from you.  I’m sorry about your sadness.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Witz_End]

Meanwhile, you are working on a house to fix it up to live with her, yet she's considering living with him.

The thankful thing is that she offered, even with him not in the picture, that if we split it made sense for me to have the house and the kids to be with me.  He is no longer much of a consideration and showed his own face by backing away from that offer to try to convince her to move up there (a no-go for her) and I understand that to still be the contingency.  She recognizes she has family to stay with (we are now) and I am not from the area, so in order for me to be here for the kids, it makes sense I live in the house.

I hear your point.  The house is "for us" only if we are together, though.  She's never shifted from that and my stance is that the kids need a place to live either way.  She does not abuse them.

There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, what keeps you motivated to remain in a relationship with someone who is not treating you with equal respect?

That is a good question.  The fact that I know she can, because she has for me in the past and because she does for others.  I do love her and there are things to love about her.  Where I struggle is where the BPD comes in and the knowledge that after too many years of not standing up enough for myself, it's an uphill battle to start drawing boundaries.

Today just shows another aspect of that uphill battle.  How do you work through traumas you've felt with someone who revises their memory presumably to avoid guilt?

[Witz_End]

Starting with your question about whether you’re being paranoid about her entering the shed and finding your writings and the SWOE book... I believe you’re correct.  I’m pretty certain your W found your book, but it’s unlikely she read your writings or you would have gotten an earful.  She likely spent too much time looking at the book.  I’d be certain to delete your browsing history (if you share devices) to be sure she doesn’t “follow” you here.

I only access here on my phone, which has been locked for years as a general habit not related to fears of her snooping.

Reading the writings... well, I think she'd be more likely to wait since my intention had been to give them to her (rethought with the BPD), partially because they are hidden and it would be hard for her to explain how she found them and then why she decided to read them.  She knows it would be obvious she snooped.

Same with the book.  If she found it, she seemed to drop a hint that she found it, but obviously isn't addressing it.  It may be that she expected this conversation to be about that and it threw her off when it wasn't.  Then again, that assumes she found it.

I did have a suspicion she was looking for something in our room once lately.  I came down to it (basement room) and she was walking back from my side of the room with a hint of guilty look.  I ignored it, walked away, but came back to tell her something and she had a deer in the headlights look, back over on my side (which is mostly my stuff).  The second I walked away, it was clear she went back over to my side not expecting me to return.  No proof... just impression and gut feeling that she was doing something sneaky.

The thing is... she's never really been the type to do that kind of thing.  20 years living together and that's new thing.  But, then again, it's felt like her BPD has worsened and I suspect that may have come as part of the damage in the wake of a diagnosed sociopath she was involved with (permissably) a little over a year ago.  It screwed her up pretty bad and I helped pick up the pieces.

But sadly, pwBPD seem to have a problem listening to us, even when we ask for that ear.  I’m sorry your W was unable to give you that kindness.  It seems that there is only space for one set of feelings in these relationships (most of the time).  Getting to the place of being truly heard can be done, but it takes a LOT of work and a very special moment.  And if there’s any chance of “blame” or sense of finger pointing, it’s unlikely to happen.  Perhaps your W will have a moment of insight and come back to you later?  I hope so.

Maybe.  At this point, she'll either humble or fire up.  I sent her a message listing out a pattern of times I've needed her support over the past few months and what her response has been.  Sometimes she does respond to that kind of thing, realizing she's stepped in it.  But, obviously, it can also go the other way.  The problem is, even if she humbles and opens to listening, it'll likely be the seesaw of painting herself black and me white out of guilt... and then what when the seesaw swings the other way?

I’m a bit confused about your relationship and the timing of things.  Is your W currently involved with this other man?  Since I’ve not known anyone who’s engaged in polyamory before, I’m not certain how that’s “supposed” to work.  Can you please explain the general “rules” or guidelines as they relate to you and your W?   I’m a sexual abuse survivor, so sex to me is not an intimacy determinant.  Absolutely NO judgement.

Polyamory essentially means having a *romantic* relationship with more than one person at the same time with the consent of all parties involved to do so.  In other words, within whatever limits both agree on, it is okay to see, date, be in a relationship with other people.  It is different from "swinging," which is more about casual sex and casual sex partners in that polyamory is relationship-focused.  The two may overlap in that you can be both, but they are two separate things.

In both of those cases, a key element is communication and respecting the feelings of all involved.  Beyond that, whatever boundaries or rules are up to those involved.

In her case, it kinda steps out from that when it's kept off my radar for a couple months leaving me oblivious to developments so significant (and obviously in need of communication) as a "point of no return", discussion of moving in together, etc.  It was not polyamory, it was creating and exploring an option to leave me.

The last time this sort of thing happened... with the same guy... was before polyamory... and was the same sort of scenario:  she had me painted black for a period of time into which he walked and painting him white he appeared, in that mode of splitting, to be stark contrast to me.  Why stay with black when white is feeding you all kinds of attention and validation unlike bad guy black you're seeing all kinds of evil, bad things from?

That inability to reconcile good and bad sides.  I'm not perfect and I really have things to work on.  But you fast forward past these situations and she'll be in the middle of idealizing me and I'll sadly say "but how... a few months back, you were leaving me", to which she says "it was temporary insanity."  She literally had said that... and now I see the real irony to those words.  It's the damn splitting.

Again, her shutting you down may end up hurting her in the long run.

The sad, self-fulfilling prophesy of BPD.

Thank you for your warmth, Gems.

[Witz_End]

Maybe.  At this point, she'll either humble or fire up.  I sent her a message listing out a pattern of times I've needed her support over the past few months and what her response has been.  Sometimes she does respond to that kind of thing, realizing she's stepped in it.  But, obviously, it can also go the other way.  The problem is, even if she humbles and opens to listening, it'll likely be the seesaw of painting herself black and me white out of guilt... and then what when the seesaw swings the other way?

Noop.  Not this time.  Black.  I knew it was a gamble.  Can I take any more of this?

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you’ve had a couple of decades of experience with her. How old are your children? How do they manage with their mother’s participation in outside relationships?

What would your life look like if you were choosing to not experience any more of these situations with her?

[Witz_End]

It sounds like you’ve had a couple of decades of experience with her. How old are your children? How do they manage with their mother’s participation in outside relationships?

16, 18 and 23.  As far as I *know* they do not know.  As far as I suspect, as I was painted black, they were told at least something by her to gauge their acceptance - not sure how much - and they at least met him during a video call.  I suspected she had told them something, asked her directly, and her answer followed patterns I've learned show evasiveness, so no proof and I refuse to put the kids on the spot to ask them.  It just remains a question.

And this is part of the problem.  Trust has dissolved when I see signs I might need to be worried about her snooping and when it seems she does things during those long split blacks that cross lines and deceives herself/memory revision and/or me (lying).  I'd never, in the past, worried about her lying about things.

And it feels like it's accelerate.  Like she's getting worse.

What would your life look like if you were choosing to not experience any more of these situations with her?

Situations as in...?

[Cat Familiar]

Situations as in...?  Can I take any more of this?

You sound as if your patience with her is wearing thin.

[Witz_End]

Situations as in...?  Can I take any more of this?

You sound as if your patience with her is wearing thin.

It is.

The "Situations as in...?" was seeking clarification about your question... what aspect you were asking about.

I broke off communication with her.  I had laid out a list of several examples within the past couple months where I really needed her support... which was pretty much EVERY time I'd hit low and needed help... and she made it about her or gave the opposite and told her how alone I have felt not receiving it.  It was a bold move and her response, verbatim:

"Supercifrajalisticexpialadoshus."

Then, a bit after, I got the "then why are you still with me."

I was honest and said almost exactly what I said up thread:  "Because I love you and I know that you can do better.  You have for me in the past and do for others."  I realize she wanted reassurance, but when I go that route and give her all flowery reassuring, it sets in her mind I'm already excusing things.  I needed her to hear I love her and that she is capable, but at the same time is hanging me out to dry.

It set her off.  I told her I was tired and just can't, then disengaged from chat.  She popped up on a group chat seemingly trying to bait me.  I ignored it.  She messaged me about an hour ago and I couldn't read it all through the push notification (which keeps it "unread" in the app)... something about "I prayed and cried out to God and..." Dunno the rest.  I'm just spending time to myself in a retreat upstairs in a large shed, cuddled under a blanket and feeling tired.

With emotions drained, it almost feels like I'm making a big deal about nothing, but then that's probably the tendency to back off and let things slide.  It's all pattern and I'm struggling with seeing it positively.

[Cat Familiar]

With emotions drained, it almost feels like I'm making a big deal about nothing, but then that's probably the tendency to back off and let things slide.  It's all pattern and I'm struggling with seeing it positively.

This paragraph describes a coping pattern that you have habitually used in your relationship.

What you describe (your wife having a romantic relationship and relegating you to second place) would be considered a huge violation by most people and grounds for divorce. It's not trivial.

What is different in your relationship is that you've agreed to a poly lifestyle, although you personally are not pursuing that.

She's violated that agreement by not honoring the primacy of your relationship.

[Witz_End]

This paragraph describes a coping pattern that you have habitually used in your relationship.

Very true.  It's too easy to fall back on "but I love her" and rationalize smoothing things over.

What you describe (your wife having a romantic relationship and relegating you to second place) would be considered a huge violation by most people and grounds for divorce. It's not trivial.

What is different in your relationship is that you've agreed to a poly lifestyle, although you personally are not pursuing that.

She's violated that agreement by not honoring the primacy of your relationship.

This is all very true.  I saw it muddled in the grey areas.  I don't believe that I see it quite as strongly as a lot of people, even in a natural (unclouded) state of mind.  I have the capability of some tolerance and forgiveness.  But, I think in this case, I extended that tolerance and forgiveness too far.

Why?  I love her and her happiness is a priority.  One of the reasons I understand polyamory, itself, is that I don't believe that *I* have to be the sole source of happiness (in terms of people).  It's a view of "is it more important that I give her happiness or that she is happy, regardless of source?"  I see that as something that can be healthy, handled in a healthy way, BUT...

...when it came to her not handling it in a respectful, healthy way, I extended that too far by swallowing my feelings about her abuse of the freedom to allow her happiness regardless of my feelings.  I took the emotional blows and excused it as "but she's happy."

The healthy route doesn't involve devaluation as a part of allowing your partner/spouse to find that happiness.

I think one of the pitfalls to a BPD relationship is the normalization of that devaluation.  The rage and vitriol and its cutting and demeaning nature... the periods of being split black, exposed to consistently negative focus... it creates an environment of devaluation that grows a tolerance to being devalued.

I did not sleep last night, laying awake on the couch away from the house thinking and realizing a lot of things.  I could not sleep.  After she woke up, I went to bed in our bedroom and slept for part of the day.

I know now how to explain the extent of the damage (this topic and others) in a way she'll understand.  The problem is in how she may respond, especially turning on herself.  Will she take it and want to work... possibly.  But, the problem is, even if she does, how long will that last till her perception cycles?

[Cat Familiar]

She may never understand, may not want to, or if she does understand, will possibly feel momentary shame and then perhaps project that back on you somehow, painting you black.

That's part of the problem for partners of people with BPD. We want them to understand and feel compassion for what they've put us through, but so often, they don't really have the capacity to truly empathize and imagine how it feels being in our position. And frequently, they don't want to.

[Witz_End]

She may never understand, may not want to, or if she does understand, will possibly feel momentary shame and then perhaps project that back on you somehow, painting you black.

Exactly.  That's my thought where I say even I'd she does, how long till her perception cycles?  That mechanism for dealing with the discomfort of guilt is to swing it back around.

That's part of the problem for partners of people with BPD. We want them to understand and feel compassion for what they've put us through, but so often, they don't really have the capacity to truly empathize and imagine how it feels being in our position. And frequently, they don't want to.

I don't know it's lack of capacity to empathize so much as discomfort when empathizing leads to guilt.  I think she has the capacity and what I realized last night more clearly than ever is that the overall pattern and effect is one really evident in her grandmother's treatment of people... which my wife very strongly recognizes, having been on the losing end of it.  She *would* know how it feels and *would* see the need to break from that pattern, having sat her own grandmother down to compassionately point out to her how it damages her relationships.

She would have the capacity to understand the effect and be able to empathize, but *will* she is another matter.  As is the question of what she will do with it and for how long.  I can try to choose a good moment and good words, but can not choose her reaction and willingness.

[Witz_End]

My head is spinning and I'm sick to my stomach.

After about 24 hours of being distanced, I checked in with her last night briefly to remind her that I do love her and to let her know I would like to give talking through what I had wanted to express another shot.

A few hours ago, I sat down with her and expressed that sometimes through the depression and the emotions of the fights, it's easy to become wrapped up in what I need to express.  I told her I know that she has been upset by things over the past few weeks and that I really want to listen and hear what she has to say - that I hoped that we could follow up with a future talk or whatever in which she could express herself as well.  That I did not want to fall into the trap - or convey the message- that all was about my feelings and that I did not recognize hers.

I expressed to her that I realize some of her frustrations relate to behaviors that come out of my depression and that I have decided it had gotten bad enough, impacting life and relationships, and that I will be finding a therapist.  I offered that, should she want as an option to work on the marriage, perhaps she could see one as well and we could sign waivers for them to be able to cross-talk and work out a way to work on our marriage and communication (we have a history as far as the idea, but this suggestion is akin to one she had brought up before).

I told her, in that, that I understand her to often feel that I "need to get into" her head first and too often don't open up about what's in mind - that I would open up and voice my feelings and if she felt able to follow up with hers afterward, it was up to her.  (Note:  the "need to get into" her head first is a game she plays - she is the one who always needs to be heard first in the wake of anything she is upset about - it does not work to NOT ask her her feelings and it does not work to voice mine first - as you'll see here - so, my only option is to ask her to talk about her feelings first... then be blamed for "always wanting into her head first."  So, here, I am acknowledging her complaint in validation.)

I said that I wanted to consider how she may received it best and offered that we could sit in person and I could express it, I could write it out in a letter, or I could even find a way to record myself talking it through - however she felt it might be easiest for her.

In other words, I took time to acknowledge her, expressed desire to work toward a solution, and sought her input on what she felt would work best for me to express what I had tried to express that had gone awry up-thread.  But, the heart of it was:  you had wanted me to express this and so often feel I "want into your head" first... so, let's find a way that's best, I'll open up about it, and that can be a first step in a series of conversations in which we can each be heard.

The result:  two whole hours of her laying out what's on her mind and what she feels and what she observes in my behavior and patterns.

I sat and listened and listened and let her speak and let her speak.  It's like I said above, she lobs at me that I have to get into her head before I show her my mind, telling me it's a manipulative thing I do, but she's totally unaware that the reason I ask her is because she's shown me there is no other way.  Perfect example here, where I told her I would like to understand, only if she wanted to express, and at some point AFTER... and the "after" did not sit well - she needed to let it out and have me listen before.

No rage.  No dragon coming out.  The way I approached it probably set the tone for it to be less angry.  But, it was a hell of a mind-scramble and pretty obvious it was preemptive.  A lot of projection, a lot of trying to show me how manipulative I can be, suggestions I'm a narcissist or have sociopathic tendencies by drawing what she saw as parallels to things the sociopath had done almost a couple years ago and a lot of things that (though details are hazy in the jumble in my head in its wake) I remember thinking... this is preemptive "chess" because this and that she is expressing make it hard for me to express what I need to without making it seem I'm doing that exact thing.

For example, she gave a bunch of examples of where she saw me as having "used things against" her.  Most of those cases where cases where I had expressed how something she said or did affected me, hurting me.  Ummmm... so, that means anything I bring up that she did or said in conjunction with how it made me feel is already set up to be "see... there you did it again."  Even this two hour lecture, because she voiced it all and ended with "I don't expect that you won't use anything I've just said against me, either.  In fact, I expect you will."

I felt completely wind out of my sails afterward.  It was like shell shock.  And she started dancing around the kitchen all bright and chipper.

I haven't even fully digested.  But, it's quite obvious I now have to put off talking to her about how I see the affair.  On top of that, our daughters are marching in an amusement park parade on Sunday and I really don't feel like going, but need to be there for the kids.

[Witz_End]

So, the upshot seems to be that she is convinced that I am a pwNPD (or I believe, more so than sociopath).

It hasn't been said outright.  As I was working through the night last night, I was going through things she said.  Very pointedly, she brought up her sociopathic ex a few times drawing parallels, but as I looked at some of the things she mentioned, I saw more that - if looked through that lens - it could appear so through skewed vision.  I considered also that she told me last night that when I had finally came to bed the night before (I had been stepped back for space for a bit over 24 hours) and offered to cuddle, she declined and says that for the first time ever she did not feel conflicted or tempted (cuddling with me is like a drug for her and she had declined when mad, but never without conflict or temptation).  Seeing me in a new light - ie in the same class as the sociopath who wrecked her - would explain that, because she would lock down.

This morning, I asked her directly by text at the tail end of work, asking for a straight and honest reply.  She essentially did a diplomatic downplay:  all of us have those traits to some degree or another and you or I could be - I have seen both of us do those sorts of things.  I'm not a therapist so can't say.

Split black right now on me (during which she idealized herself in a sense, projecting what would be turned inward), I don't buy the "we" and "you or I."  That's not the binary either/or of this state for her.  My impression is she tried to lead me to it, but believing it, is undoubtedly aware *not* to try addressing it directly.

What kinds of things did she site?

We went to our pastor years ago for marriage counseling in which his goal was to give us a safe space to unpack baggage.  She said yesterday, "you co-opt peoples' opinion of me, as you did with Pastor T."  The reality was that he turned to me (and it happened to be me first for whatever reason) and asked me to share something that I struggle with in the relationship.  I answered the question:  her anger and how strongly it's expressed.  I voiced how it affects me, not lingering long or badmouthing her.  He turned to her and asked her "what can you do to help him feel this less" or something to that effect.  She clammed up but played along verbally, would not return, but held it against both him (for being too old school Baptist and assuming the husband is always right (he was actually really mild and new school) and me for years.  Later down the road, I suggested counseling elsewhere and she spat an angry "I'll be damned if I go in front of someone who doesn't know me and have you make me look like an angry person."  Really, I just answered the question.

Another example is something I do regret doing, but the motive is misperceived.  A couple days ago, the night I started this thread, I reached that intense "end of rope" feeling during a text conversation and said "you may have just lost me."  It was anguish.  I was muddled and in pain.  I should have been more careful with my words, knowing both from her and learning BPD that fear of abandonment is huge.  But, her perception is that I was intentionally hitting that pain point as a manipulation, saying that because I said "may" (contingent possibility), I was purposefully using it as a threat.  "Pretty f'ing twisted," she said, as she compared it to the sociopath's tactics.

It's so frustrating, because if she warms a bit and draws closer, it's painful to think she's doing so despite believing it.  I almost don't want her to open back up or be vulnerable.

I knew logic or denial wouldn't work.  I had already told her I plan on seeing a therapist for depression, so I told her I would ask and she meant enough to me for me to do so, whether I see it myself or not.  The problem is, most likely if I am still "black", will she believe the therapist or that I showed the therapist?

It would explain that gut "sick" I felt right after, yesterday.  I also wonder even more if she found the Eggshells book and the whole thing more of s multidirectional pre-emption, covering all possible bases.  If I were to have planned on broaching the BPD topic, it would now seem like a projecting it back, right?

*sigh*

[AskingWhy]

WE, depression for me is like a speed bump.  I have experienced it before with my first uBPD h when he devalued me and left, and in my FOO.  In time, I know I will move on, but it's no fun being in the middle of it.

You will move on when you are ready.  You know the facts and the reality.

In the meantime, be kind to yourself.   

[Witz_End]

WE, depression for me is like a speed bump.  I have experienced it before with my first uBPD h when he devalued me and left, and in my FOO.  In time, I know I will move on, but it's no fun being in the middle of it.

You will move on when you are ready.  You know the facts and the reality.

In the meantime, be kind to yourself.   

Thank you.  It's one of those "on the verge of crying but just moving forward" days today and I needed that.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-  (please forgive the length of this...)

Oh how I understand that feeling of being on the verge of tears.  I am so so sorry and I feel your pain, my friend.  I really do.

Man oh man, I wish I could be lucky enough to describe my recent depression as a “speed bump”, but no... turns out I had major depressive disorder.  “Had”.  For a long long time.  And I didn’t know it.  But I clawed my way out of it.  With talk therapy,  journaling, reading and responding here.  Adjusting my mindset.  Letting go of the past.  Forgiving MYSELF.  And using my little Alpha-Stim machine to treat the depression and anxiety (since February 2019).  I cannot take depression meds - I tried and failed on 4 of them, but the little machine works wonders for me.  And I’ve been OFF the little anxiety pills for several months, even though that wasn’t a goal.

WE-  I want to talk to you about some things.  I hope you’re up for it; but if not, just take your time to respond, okay?   I had family in town, so couldn’t respond sooner. 

I’ve been thinking of you, and some parallels and some things really struck me.  I may have misunderstood, so please correct me.  And please PLEASE know, none of this is meant to hurt you.

Earlier in this thread I asked about your and your W’s guidelines around the polyamory, and you explained that well.  Thank you.  And I do understand that conceptually ... sort of.  Because of my history, for “survival” purposes I am able to completely detach during sexual encounters.  Either that, or completely ATTACH.  There is no in between for me.  I am extremely loyal to my uBPDbf, and he is very faithful.  Cheating would be a huge and horrible thing to him, so I would never do that because of how it would impact HIM.  Even when we were apart for 8 months last year there was some phone and e-mail contact.  I knew that if I decided to welcome him back he would ask the question and I’d need to tell the truth, so I HAD to remain faithful to the man I wasn’t with.  That’s how much it means to him.  On the other hand, I wouldn’t think to ask the question; but for his benefit, I DID ask the question.  Again, because that’s how much it means to him.

My exH was a jackass of a completely different ilk.  He was NPD (with some sprinkling of BPD) and inherently a bad person.  I spent 19 years twisting myself inside out trying to keep that man happy.  There was a revolving door of women, and he tried and lied to convince me they were all platonic, blah blah blah.  I “trusted” he would do the right thing.  My therapist (who did joint counseling for us) actually said “Gems, you HAVE to get out of this marriage.”   That was not long before that H threw me across the room and into a door.  Sometimes the decision is made FOR us.  He was arrested that night because my 911call went through before he threatened me that “YOU BETTER NOT BE CALLING THE COPS”.  That was my true illness.  I understand that now.  And even though, almost 7 years after our divorce was final, I’m certain I’ll never know the full extent of his lying and misdeeds.  I forgive myself.

I apologize.  I’ve just hijacked your thread, but there may be a point to this.. I hope.

I accepted my exH’s twisted logic of things for YEARS, in my attempts to keep him happy.  But the rules kept changing.  It was never enough.  The dark hole of emptiness in him, that I held no part in creating, seemed to land on MY HEAD, MY HEART to fill.  And there was no WAY I could do it.  And I had no clue I was in an abusive relationship.  Not until recently, when my T made me understand and accept the fact.  I even circled back and had a conversation with my old T cross-country for confirmation of my memories.  He pretty much provided the NPD diagnosis for the xH.

So when you talked about (Response #11) ...”I love her and her happiness is a priority”...  I don’t know... maybe I had a “flashback” of sorts.  A hit of everything I did in my efforts to keep that man happy.  I don’t know, WE.  I just ask you to read your own words.  You said aLOT in that response.  A LOT.  And being poly should absolutely NOT come at the cost of your devaluation.  Not in any way, shape or form.  She needs to know this.  If you’re comfortable with her pursuing fulfillment this way, that’s fine, but at what cost to you?  At what cost to your children?

This is YOUR life.

I’m sorry I got so off track.  Triggered anyone?  Okay... so, if I understand correctly (I hope?) polyamory was introduced following your W’s relationship and breakup with a man, who she then engaged in another relationship with (after intro of polyamory).  So am I correct to see that polyamory was introduced as a “solution” of sorts to her infidelity?  I’m so sorry.  I hope this is not coming across too harshly or coldly.   And she’s taken this poly relationship too far, crossed the line and now looks at this as her “primary” relationship?

So what does this really mean?  To a pwBPD, whose relationships can be unstable on the best of days, what are your W’s expressed expectations regarding this relationship?  How does she expect YOU to behave in relation to her behavior?

If you were to engage with another woman would your W be perfectly fine with that?

Finally, none of us truly get EVERYTHING we need (emotional, intellectual, physical, etc) from one person.  But we like to think we have the emotional maturity to control ourselves enough where we don’t set fire to everything around us in our pursuit of our jollies.   I’m probably too angry to post right now.  I’m maybe too parallel to you.

But all things aside, WE, I think I actually WAS where you are. More than any other person I’ve ever seen here on the boards. And I’m out (of that marriage); but IN a pretty good rs with uBPDbf.  And I’m so much better and I’m actually pretty healthy and happy now.  This is what I’m saying in a million too many words.

And what I’m asking is this.  Please don’t be her sacrificial “lamb”, so to speak.  Please take yourself to a T.  For you.  And you only.  Sometimes it doesn’t HAVE to matter where her head is.. or what she’s thinking.  Or why.  It’s okay for you to get help just for you.  You don’t need to announce to your W that you’re getting help.  YOU are reason enough.  I don’t know you, but I believe this to be true.  And I’m certain that anyone who DOES know you feels the same way.  One little step.  Guaranteed...just a little talking, being listened to and you will begin to feel better.

You, my dear WE, deserve to feel better.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Cat Familiar]

I'll echo Gems and agree that using poly as a cover for infidelity is a thing. My ex-husband attempted to do that, except I didn't have anyone I wanted to be with so I said no. (He still pursued his interests, but on the down low, and I discovered many breaches of fidelity.)

I'm wondering how this all started in your relationship Wits_End. Was this a mutual decision where you both had partners you wanted to explore? Or did she just initiate this change of status herself?

[Witz_End]

Gems and Cat... I read both posts and will need to come back to reply to specifics later.  I really appreciate them both and where you're coming from, so don't want to seem I'm glossing the time you've taken (especially Gems) over.

It's very difficult to be eyes open and see things that were not a part of who I knew.  Dishonesty was not a thing.  What I saw was a lot of integrity and something she has said over the years is how much she fell in love with *my* integrity.  I forget who posted it (maybe AskingWhy), but there was a post somewhere today mentioning how high functioning pwBPD can exhibit NPD traits and it totally fit with how much projection was there in her 2 hour dissertation that boiled down to what she sees as narcissistic in me.  She was doing things in that talk alone that were exactly what she believed she saw in me.

So, there are a lot of things being evaluated here.  In these past few months, it's almost like an explosion of the traits, exponentially worse than I have ever seen before, much more concentrated.  I do play a role in bringing it out, having reached a point where I was drawing a line in ways that may not have been productive - my own "dragon" coming out more, clashing with hers in ways that no doubt triggered a lot.  But, then again, I wouldn't be where I am in understanding if it had not happened that way.

The short of it on the poly is that I agree that it can be misused and it is definitely here.  It did not start out that way and has been fine in the past, however, even before this current relationship was known, I had started to sense her pushing boundaries and a feeling things had evolved in her mind.  It started with the healthy "within the other's comforts and with our relationship coming first" and with a rule of "if anyone is uncomfortable for any reason, justifiable/readonable or even intangible "gut", there was to be no arguing and no questioning - It meant a "no", full stop, to whatever was sparking the discomfort.  This was true both with swinging (casual sex) and poly (relationship).

Where I began to see into her mind was when she mentioned a guy I'd met and really do like (respectful, good guy) had reached out of the blue.  He isn't from our area and had been visiting, traveling for work.  He offered to fly her down (a couple states away) for a weekend.  She brought it up to me (note the difference in communication between her telling/asking me within a day or two in this case, but things going weeks and weeks in the other).  At the time, she had just come off of a trip to Florida, and I mentioned a concern might be timing.  A week or two later, she raged at me that I wasn't letting her "be [her] own woman" and respecting her independence, as if I was being controlling or unreasonable for having any feelings about timing.  I mean, I was okay with the trip... I wasn't saying no... I was just suggesting we might need to work together on a timeline.

What it showed me was that she had clearly drifted off path and made "freedom to do what I want and be my own person" a priority over considering the marriage... and over what we really *had* been good with before.

This all coincided with the start of this intensified period, as if something shifted in her.  It also coincides with this relationship with "H" heating up rapidly, though her visit to see "M" would not be a lie (she knows I can and might talk to him).  It does have me wondering what "H" had been feeding into her mind and how whatever that is could have combined with the after-effect of the diagnosed sociopath where she was fairly messed up and vulnerable.

Yes, I am going to see a T.  I am going to be looking up options tonight or tomorrow and want one who is willing to work with BPD because that may mean more insight into what I am doing with.

Yes, I am going to need to talk about this with her, also.  That's not going to be easy, because it will be perceived as a threat to that relationship and the likelihood she will see and acknowledge going astray in her mind is slim.  It's more likely to end being painted narcissistic isolation of her from meaningful relationships.  Nevermind a history that shows otherwise.

I can get back to your replies more specifically later.

[Witz_End]

Note:  Spin-off thread over in Bettering.  I spun off to ask a general question that applies.

I still have to address your questions above, though.

[Witz_End]

Oh how I understand that feeling of being on the verge of tears.  I am so so sorry and I feel your pain, my friend.  I really do.

Thank you.

Man oh man, I wish I could be lucky enough to describe my recent depression as a “speed bump”, but no... turns out I had major depressive disorder.  “Had”.  For a long long time.

True for me as well.  Looking back, I had it as a child.  Then, shook it for some years in the Army.  Then it returned shortly after marrying and has worsened over time with slight ups and downs, but acute now.

The pattern for me is that suppression brings depression.  I do not respond well to feeling stifled.  I experienced it with my family even though I did not have a rough childhood in other ways.  I was able to spread my wings and find my potential afterward.  My wife was attracted to that and genuinely, I believe, wants to see it again - but does not want to see that suppression is the effect of her BPD.

Add on top of that that I developed a lot of mechanisms that, being unable to express or safely express, a lot of things accumulate inside.  The mechanisms lock them away (internal suppression) but over time, keeping the build up stowed away begins to drain energy. 

Perhaps a therapist can help with that, but how much?  A turning point on the path to realizing the BPD was the revelation of the last 2 paragraphs and implication that - barring change from her - continuing in the relationship means more depression, which is a major obstacle to being able to pull out my own potential.

But I clawed my way out of it.  With talk therapy,  journaling, reading and responding here.  Adjusting my mindset.  Letting go of the past.  Forgiving MYSELF.  And using my little Alpha-Stim machine to treat the depression and anxiety (since February 2019).  I cannot take depression meds - I tried and failed on 4 of them, but the little machine works wonders for me.  And I’ve been OFF the little anxiety pills for several months, even though that wasn’t a goal.

Good to hear that all helped!

And I do understand that conceptually ... sort of.

A lot of people have trouble grasping it.  A lot of people also don't see it as viable or viable for them.  It's unconventional, for sure, and not for everyone.  I see it as a matter of wiring and though I think there are a lot of different reasons people cheat on their SO's, in some cases, I think some people are just not wired naturally for monogamy.  I don't know why that is, but I do believe that some are suited for one way and some are suited for the other.

I see the choice to be mono or poly as a recognition of the person's nature, neither necessarily "right" or "better."  Just my view.  Not trying to soap box or sell anything, but my view of it is essential to understanding my situation.  It provides context.

I apologize.  I’ve just hijacked your thread, but there may be a point to this.. I hope.

Sometimes peoples' stories help. 

I accepted my exH’s twisted logic of things for YEARS, in my attempts to keep him happy.  But the rules kept changing.  It was never enough. 

No, it isn't.  That's the rough realization.

And being poly should absolutely NOT come at the cost of your devaluation.  Not in any way, shape or form.  She needs to know this.  If you’re comfortable with her pursuing fulfillment this way, that’s fine, but at what cost to you?  At what cost to your children?

That is exactly where I am finding myself.  In some ways, I feel like I'm plastering it all over out here on the boards like a moaning person, but I am processing and responses have helped me clarify.  There is an obvious conversation that has to happen...

I fear the hell out of it.  I know it has to happen, but I recognize it as a make or break.  Most likely option is all hell will break loose.  Second most likely option is there may be just enough given from her end to believe she can get by, minimizing responsibility... OR that any compassion and honesty that builds trust will be destroyed a week or month later as she cycles back around to me being a demon.  The hopeful third is that her eyes open to the seriousness.

Your post had a lot to respond to, so I will continue in another post...

[Witz_End]

... polyamory was introduced following your W’s relationship and breakup with a man, who she then engaged in another relationship with (after intro of polyamory).  So am I correct to see that polyamory was introduced as a “solution” of sorts to her infidelity?

The history...

In 2007-2010, a series of dominos fell, starting with the loss of a 2 year old daughter, but continuing on to loss of career and the inevitable loss of our mortgage.  In 2010, we were lucky enough to land somewhat back on our feet in a rented townhouse as I worked independently in a trade I picked up by going back to school.  It's relevant to understand it was a period of a lot of turmoil and stress.  Retrospectively, it also probably triggered things in her attached to her fear of abandonment, having had to deal with turmoil and lack of steadiness and roots in her childhood.

Late 2010/early 2011, there was a period of stronger depression that swiped my libido.  She has strong needs and could not understand it.  Nor could I, in full, but as I reached for ways to describe it, it seemed she just could not understand and I felt more and more defective.  But her needs are important and while polyamory was not even a thought, even since we were dating in 1998/99 (married in 2000), I had always offered that I realize sex can just be sex - that I was not worried about reaching out to others in whatever way sexually, with proviso's:  no emotional attachment and no ex'es where there was the potential for that, openness and communication - let me know ahead of time if you see something as likely or let me know right after, and a few other smaller things (ie protection worn, etc).

She took me up on it a couple times early on, but then settled into no urge to do so.  I revisited it as I went through that bout of depression, offering that she had needs and could sate those elsewhere, though I knew she would prefer with me.  I felt defective and frustrated with it and didn't want her to suffer.

Fast forward.  Fall of 2011, despite scrambling to hold onto the rent, in the high cost area, it wasn't working.  We opted for her to move with kids up to her home area, in with family, as I stayed with family in the general area we had lived in.  The idea was to use the period to regroup f in financially as I continued to work.  At the same time, we had seen a lot of fights and periods of splitting through 2011.  I was in a rough place and exhausted from what I now see was the BPD under stress.  I became a bit distant and apathetic, so physical distance was compounded by apathy and fatigue.

Five months into this, bitter fighting from afar and intense prolonged split black punctuated with some higher moments, I drove up to visit for a daughter's birthday in the midst of a split black period.  She told me it was over and backed that up by sleeping separately and doing things like asking me to leave the room when she changed clothes.  But, at the same time, she was radiant and lighter... and clearly in love.  2+2, right?  So, I asked... and was told that, yes, there was another man.  I knew who he was - an old Army friend of hers ("H") she had had a fling with before me - and he lived on distance, a couple states away.

It was explained that things had unexpectedly just happened... just clicked into place without any intention or expectation three weeks prior and gotten deep really quickly.  She was apologetic, but adamant that it was as much issues I brought to the relationship and my withdrawal that had been driving her away.

I was faced with a choice:  foot down "okay, it's done" with or without accusations, or prioritize healing things and keeping the family intact, kids also in mind.  I took the latter option, but realized ultimatums would not fly, so I simply told her I'd work on myself, she could have some time exploring that with him, and she could take some time to choose - nothing indefinite or dragged out, but she could take the time.

He imploded emotionally after a while and withdrew as he saw me coming out of the split black into white.  After that point, though, I came to deduce that there had been more to the story as I remembered some things.  I asked direct questions, just wanting the truth so I could set it to bed and move on.  In an answer, I saw something not possibly true and a pattern in how she answered - "tells" that there was deception. 

What I knew was they had had cyber sex during that period of ranked libido.  But, here's the thing... that was over a year prior to my finding out things "unexpectedly" kicked up "three weeks ago."  I knew that she had NOT breathed a word about the cyber sex, which she knew - especially since I was offering she could go have real sex with someone - would not be an issue in and of itself *except* for feelings she had had for him historically.  I knew that during a period of dysregulation half way through that year, she had almost walked out the door keys in hand to just drive off and leave us and had said after the fact when I asked where she would have gone...

"Possibly Michigan."
"What's in Michigan for you?"  It was an odd place for her to choose.
"I don't know."
Obviously, I learned later that is where he lives.

She would talk about conversations with other friends, but never mentioned being in touch with him and hid that he was what was in Michigan.  Other bits and pieces gathered, the best picture I have is that feelings rekindled, possibly unexpectedly, with the cyber sex as her mind went to what it was like to be with him before.  Rather than risk my having a problem with feelings being involved, she walked a tight rope flirting with those feelings for a year, keeping it in secrecy.  The idea of possibly leaving me did come up at least a few months before she said as he dropped a bombshell of his feelings on her.  That fell right in the middle of our geographical separation, my distancing, and being in the black more than otherwise.  Bad combination.

I tried to discuss it with her, but met denial and then fury that pushed the topic conveniently off the table.  I just swallowed it.

Things got better between us.  In fact, despite all that, we became pretty strong and both seemed to view that period as a test that proved that we were inseparable.  A few years later, I mentioned a swinger's club her sister had told me about and she liked the idea of going.  Trying that lifestyle out actively was a mutual thing... and honestly, there really have not been any problems there aside from the recent boundary push that tipped me to her recent attitude shift.  In fact, till a couple months ago, I even worked in one of those clubs on staff.

About a year into that and seeing no problems, still feeling strong in us despite some ups and downs here and there, "H" reemerged to check in with her and start chatting.  She let me know right away and communicated great about it.  Then, brought up the idea of polyamory really respectfully.  We talked about it openly and I took some time to consider.

I had never had a problem with H himself, before.  I knew her well enough to know all had been justified in her mind as "within bounds" even as she kept it hush - at least in the surface of her mind and what she would have communicated to him.  After a few years of feeling us strong, seeing the swinging as having been handled respectfully, and seeing how openly she had communicated and sought out my feelingsr respectfully, it was a very different situation than years before.

I agreed to try it and see if it would work, under the agreement that communication was essential and that our relationship and my comforts were always to be respected.

It worked with H that time.  He was respectful of us, had come to grips with her being happy with me, and I even got to know him.  Getting along with him, I even surprised her by conspiring with him so he showed up at the club the first night I worked to keep her company while I worked.  Everyone was happy, but a few months into this, he vanished again as his possibly BPD/NPD ex roped him back in (and from what I know, that one is really a handful).

A little after that, she reconnected with a past boyfriend from that same Army era.  Again, she communicated, all was respectful, all worked fine on our end... except that we were naive enough to not realize the nature of a diagnosed sociopath and I trusted her judgment (I mean, they had been a thing in the past).  She ended up catching it and severed the ties, but not before he screwed her mind up.  Problems there had nothing to do with us... and, in fact, a major part of her seeing the writing on the wall was a hint of him trying to interfere with us.  If anything, the fact she had caught his move and slammed the door down on that spoke to her protection of our relationship.

The root of change came last December.  She was still mentally screwed up over that experienced, feeling emotionally raped.  I had been supportive and patient, but somehow a little while after, she claimed that in December I had told her it had all been her fault (the sociopath).  Ot boggled my mind, but then again I had started to tune out memories of details of fights.  Usually, prompting would recall them, yet here it did not.  I could not fathom how I could have been so cruel, especially when I never saw it as her fault.

I became aware that she had been talking to H again.  When he had ghosted her for his ex, she had felt betrayed by how he handled it, and I was aware over the next months that they had been chatting tepidly at first, then that he had regained some of her trust, but that things were pretty much platonic.  She and I were on ups and downs, rockiness in the wake of whatever happened in December.  I started questioning reality on it and still really have no clue what really happened.

Enter April and I was black and spent April and March more black than white.  Her attitude shifted and she adopted a "there is a new me emerging from theashes, independent and my own woman" persona which sounds good and strong but equated to "my way or the highway" mentality fueled often by dysregulation.  Along with that came the revelation in a few conversations that she felt we might be done and that things had gotten way more serious with H rapidly than ever.  He was planning to eventually move down and they had discussed everything from her moving in with him and kid names (if she could still have kids).  They had passed a point of no return and it was not reversible.

Same choice.  I knew I could outlast him.  I have the benefit of knowing nothing is irreversible when she swings the spectrum of splitting (though BPD wasn't a term in my mind yet).  I also knew I was not going to jump through hoops like a pet monkey again.  I told her I was also at the end of the rope (true) and agreed it would not work if I was treated like 7 years prior.  She would need to work too, if she wanted it.

There was that period of a couple weeks where "they" were primary and I was temporarily the outside guy.  Predictably that shifted.  Fights became really volatile as I stood up for myself and my own internal "dragon" came out.  He is still in the picture, but she came down from that idealization and has seen him reversing on promises, going from "I'll move down there because it's your roots and you have more to uproot than I do" to near constant joking she should move up there to "well, maybe you can just come visit to get a break every now and then."

She has the feelings, but they speak less often and she recognizes that he talks pretty but is... as I put it to her... "temporal" in nature.  The relationship is there, but she sees that there are ways it would not have worked out so well if she had left me.  Despite volatility between us and things like her NPD views of me, she wants to make us work.  At the same time, there is wreckage here and we've both mutually agreed cuddling and sex are off the table, both being avenues we've used to slip back into complacency and routine.

Reading, you probably see the pattern in how things happened - the contrast between how H rounds 1 + 3 and round 2 were approached.  1 and 3 coincided with heavy black splitting in which he popped up and fed her a lot of validation and good feeling at a time when I was split black.  This made him white, me black and as she saw the contrast and compared the two perceptions, it perpetuated me being held in the black.  That contrast had a "grass is greener" effect and it was easy for her to justify keeping me in the dark because I was an  in her eyes and it was justified.  So, I would be in the dark as she followed rapidly evolving emotions down rabbit holes past "points of no return", then...

She'd swing around, realize somewhere inside her that *I* have been the one who hasn't left, and guilt would roll in underneath, along with the need to do damage control and lie if need be to not risk losing me.

I have no problem with poly, which worked beautifully twice. I do have a problem with how poly and her BPD have interacted and the craps shoot that coinciding with splitting me black has become.  I do have a problem with the deception and lies and need some ownership from her.  Part of that is how I have seen this all shift her away from the person she was, like a spiral of internal shame screwing her up more as she knows she is losing integrity, but does not know why she does it.  I do also see him as toxic to her, not because he is a toxic person, but because he delivers a very illusory "feel good" that draws her off course and feeds this cycle... and, twice, has then vanished.  Before 7 years ago, she never pulled this kind of thing and both times have been him - it's less her nature and more how he influences her nature.

I need for her to see things more clearly about how this has played out, to accept some responsibility and unload some of that guilt, and to bring herself back into check.  But, even then, when could something else emerge coinciding with a black period and the nature of a black period is that she would not know her perception was skewed.

And that, right there, is where it's not about the poly, because it would (and has) happen as possibly in a mono mode.  It's simply someone providing a "feel good" coincident to me being "horrible."

what are your W’s expressed expectations regarding this relationship?  How does she expect YOU to behave in relation to her behavior?

Is there a simple answer to that with pwBPD's?  The shortest sum of what she expects from me is to prove I will keep taking punches and still be around.

If you were to engage with another woman would your W be perfectly fine with that?

She says yes, but I sense no.  She realizes no would be hypocritical and I believe she wants to be okay, but think she overestimates.  I have no desire to pursue anything.  She is aware I do have love for someone I know from my past, but I wouldn't even see that as having compatibility or promise even if I were single and I have told her I'm not even going there.  I'm content just being happy that person is out there in the world.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-

Just a few middle of the night comments.

First, whether people choose to engage in mono or poly lifestyles is most definitely their choice.

Second... regarding your W’s crossing the poly boundaries (painful devaluation) and your eventual discussion of this difficult issue - press the pause button for a bit if you can.

Obviously this IS a conversation that needs to take place.  I believe the outcome of your discussion doesn’t have to be as dire as you’re predicting.   Perhaps if you incorporate some of the communication tools here, and start by emphasizing  the reasons you jointly MADE the poly decision, you can LEAD the conversation to a healthy place?  And maybe wait until you’re feeling a bit more solid and not quite so vulnerable?  Is there urgency for the timing of this conversation?  Maybe reframing in your mind that it’s NOT a “confrontation” can ease your worry?

Okay, my friend.  Off to sleep.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[formflier]

Obviously this IS a conversation that needs to take place. 

Gemsforeyes has some important thoughts here. 

I'd like to add a few more. 

Perhaps this isn't "just" one conversation.  As I've looked over this post and thought about other couples that have worked on this issue...well...I'm hoping we can all agree it's complicated.

I'm wondering  if the pressure to get this sorted out in "a conversation" would be unhelpful.  What if you focused on "being present" and listening for the first conversation...or the first couple conversations.

What if you focused on understanding what your partner has to say and the emotion behind that...?

Rather than trying to convince your partner of anything.  (Note:  I'm certainly still guilty of showing up to a conversation with an agenda...when a set of ears and a bucket full of empathy is what is called for)

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Witz_End]

Real quick...

No, it's nothing I'm jumping to.  A thought I had was holding till after I have a therapist worked out and have talked to the therapist.

It's not that I am looking to charge in for a confrontation - it's the expectation that there are 100 ways the conversation can go awry, hurt and that can go anywhere up to things being over.  She knows a conversation like this is coming because I tried to start the conversation once already.

A factor in the timing is also that I believe she is still planning to visit him for a weekend in a month.  It's not something to drop shortly before and the closer to that visit, the effect of her looking forward to it being messed with may play an emotional role.

By the way, as far as the hows, I started a thread over in "Struggling" along those lines as a specific spin off from this.  I'm wondering if that aspect might be better there if it seems that might be better for peoples' reference as they look for similar advice...?  Unless your thoughts don't apply as much to the questions in that one...?

[I Am Redeemed]

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