Rage, ultimatums - Standing my ground is destroying us

[Staythecourse]

I am new on this site, only a few weeks. I only recently (after being in relationship for a few years) am fearing I am married to an undiagnosed BPD. I even feel guilty posting about him, as if I am betraying him in some way, but I am desperate and afraid at this point.

I feel like I went from the pedestal to the curb, and I'm looking around trying to figure out how I got here...

I know there is anonymity here, but I am also petrified that somehow he will find out I am posting, and that I believe he is BPD. His potential reaction to that terrifies me. I have only confided in one person, but don't want to burden her, so I am going to seek a counselor to help me sort through all this. If it seems as though I'm not providing enough facts, it's only because I am so afraid someone I know will see this post, and recognize us through it. While the abuse has only ever been verbal, i don't want to push it. And I must be getting used to it, because when I confided in my friend, she was horrified that I had tolerated what had gone on in the past with him...and it bothered me that I made excuses for him.

 The early period was an intense love affair (the love bomb, as I recently learned this term), with great conversation and companionship. A few blips, that I chalked up to getting to know each other, miscommunication thru texting, etc... Even until this recent turn of events, apart from those occasional inexplicable rages, he was very caring, loving, attentive, and just a great person to be around. In fact, everyone loved being in his presence, the center of attention at a party, yet he could be humble at the same time. He appeared very confident, a man also used to getting his own way, but generous hearted as well.
 The episodes of rage were maybe 1 every 3 months or so, for the first 3 years, but increased in the last 2 yrs a bit - I just kept thinking I was an annoying person at times, who somehow rubbed him the wrong way.  I learned to tip toe around him over time, when I sensed he was not himself, still occasionally would do something to set him off, but I had learned to live with it. (We are both 60 yrs old, married/divorced before w adult kids from prev marriage) I am a health care professional, he is retired early but works part time. I do know he had an abusive father,grew up with gambling and drinking the norm, as well as physical/verbal abuse...overall, an unstable childhood.


 After much reading on this site, while I feel a sense of relief that it isn't simply me doing everything wrong, even though I have felt "on eggshells" on this roller coaster relationship, and have tried not trigger his rages, but still never do things right. ... it also saddens me to realize that he may have this, and I didn't recognize sooner. I would have educated myself sooner, to try to cope better and not make things worse.

My current crisis comes down to the rare circumstance of me standing my ground, with me saying "no" to him, holding to a decision I made, and I will not give on this one because it's a serious financial situation. In the past, I walked away from good jobs at his request, because he assured me we didn't need the money (but turns out, we did, and I regret quitting).
 Dealing with this now isn't just a rage over something minor (ie I questioned something he's an "expert" on,  I declined an extra portion of a meal he prepared, I said something he didn't find funny, etc...)...I could deal with that rage, and subsequent silent treatment, because I knew eventually he would come around) he would  begin talking to me again, apologize for his behavior, I would accept it, and there'd be no further discussion of the fact that the infraction didn't warrant his reaction...This time the issue, if I follow what he is demanding of me, could result in my financial ruin. It is a totally irresponsible demand on his part, that makes no sense because of what the ultimate result will be for myself (and him, since we are partners).Because I have been unable to reason with him (I have been guilty of JADE as well), I am growing frustrated, but feeling guilty, because he says it's my fault he feels this way and causing him to want to divorce me.

This is a boundary I absolutely cannot relinquish now...and it's ripping us apart. He has handed me an ultimatum 3 times (Do this or we are done) in the past 2 months, and all 3 times I have stayed firm. I told him I want the relationship, love him dearly, want him with me, but I cannot do what he is telling me to do, for my sake and his as well. If divorce is the result, it will be because of his decision, that I do not want a divorce, but I also cannot simply give in to his threats. I also realize he is confused, because I made the mistake of always giving him his way...now I'm sure he is at a loss, because why am I suddenly not doing what he wants? On all 3 occasions recently, when I have not given in, he backs off from the divorce talk, and declares his love for me again. (almost forgot, there were 3 occasions in the past, after minor fights, he threatened to kick me out, but after the silent treatment, said he wanted me to stay)...but now he speaks of divorce.

I feel utter contempt from him when he yells at me during any of these rages...how do you love someone, yet speak to them in such a way? When he looks at me, I see hate in his eyes, and it breaks my heart. Days later, he's telling me how much he loves me. I've never been so confused in my entire life...

 I only recently found out about his huge credit card debt, other losses, kept from me, etc...and his demand for me to quit a job that will remove my own financial burden, and help with his, makes zero sense to me. I've told him if he can help me come up with an alternative plan, I will certainly do it, but I can't just quit without a plan in place, and walk away from a job that can save us financially (the job involves me having to travel frequently, which he doesn't like, but I've assured him it's temporary, only for one year max) He's an intelligent man, and he is also used to getting his way - but now I feel bullied, anxious, scared, but also insulted (for lack of a better word) that he is totally ignoring my situation, my feelings, my right to make a sound decision for myself, etc...

I feel as though I'm trying to save us, and at the same time, he's trying to drown us both.

This isn't one of those previous "wait til the rage passes" over something unimportant...

 I'm looking for some advice over how to have a discussion with a BPD who won't even listen to the facts of the situation, and goes into a rage, with verbal abuse, every time the topic comes up...I'm at a loss. I'm hoping somewhere on these boards I will find a situation where there is success in getting the BPD partner to see the rationale behind the other person's decision, even though it doesn't make them happy. Can they even see the longterm, and not just the short term, where their comfort zone is?

On top of all this, I've been in denial and burying the episodes of verbal abuse from him.  We need to address his other rages that were increasing with me (over simple things). I don't want to forever tip toe around him, feel like I can't be myself, watch every word, not be able to express my feelings without being mocked and belittled, live through those silent treatments, have no say in my life, be isolated from my family (he moved us to another city)...What happens the next time there is a major life decision, and we don't agree? I'm hoping we could go to therapy together, because I don't think I could ever say to him "I think you have BPD"...

I love him, and want to try to find a way for both of us to live with together in peace (after all I've read here, I'm afraid that I'm expecting too much with that one). Thanks for listening, and I hope I haven't rambled or been too repetitive. It's overwhelming...

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[Ozzie101]

Welcome to the family, Staythecourse! I'm so sorry for the situation that brings you here but I'm glad you've found us. You've landed in the right place.

Honestly, I could have written a lot of what you wrote. The guilt of sharing. The verbal and emotional abuse. Blaming myself and thinking I caused the rages by being annoying or just messing up. Never doing things right. I've been through all that and it's hell, I know.

The threats of divorce and ending the relationship that he never follows through on -- actions speak loudly. He threatens but doesn't do it. As I'm sure you are aware, they're most likely empty threats.

I'm glad you have a friend to talk to and especially glad you're going to seek out a counselor. That's an excellent step and one that really helped me when my undiagnosed husband was dysregulating. I actually sought out someone who specialized in domestic violence. My H never got physically violent with me (he threw and broke some things and blocked my path a couple of times, which qualifies as physical abuse, but he never laid a hand on me) but the DV counselor was invaluable in helping me.

In these rages, which you mention escalating, has he ever gotten physically violent (not necessarily with you directly)?

So many here, like you, have felt that relief of getting an explanation, tempered with sadness and anxiety about what could lie ahead.

As for this current issue, I would strongly urge you to keep standing your ground. You do NOT want to be financially ruined. You're probably right. Your earlier caving probably makes it even more difficult to accept this. Your H may see this as a test. If you do it and support him, it proves you love him. If you don't, you're against him. That sort of thing is common in BPD (or was with my H).

And you're right. When/if this storm passes, there will likely be another one. Unless your H develops better coping skills, it will probably happen again. We never recommend telling a loved one we suspect they have BPD since that usually does NOT go over well. And you can't force him into therapy. There are skills you can learn that can improve your situation. It has worked for many of us here (including yours truly).

What is the crux of the problem? Is it the travel that makes him want you to quit? Or do you think your relative financial independence might pull you away from him? Fear of abandonment is often a major motivator for pwBPD.

Please keep posting and let us know more so we can help!

[Staythecourse]

thank you, Ozzie!

He has never done anything physically towards me, or towards anything else, and he's a big guy so I'm glad he doesn't act out that way. When I haven't backed down in one of these scenes, he eventually will shut down. And then it's usually silent treatment for anywhere up to 3 days. In previous situations, once he starts talking again, he usually acted as though nothing happened. In this instance, it's an actual issue that's not resolved, so he has attempted to get into it again. This last time, once he asked if we could speak, I said I would but I would not argue, and he respected that. The topic was brought up, but we spoke calmly and tabled it rather quickly...but it's still hanging there for him.

What you said about financial independence and fear of abandonment strikes me as a possibility. I was very financially strong when we met, and at his insistence, he wanted to "take care of me". I've been dependent upon him the last few years, but now I kinda have had to take charge to clean up these finances. Perhaps it's as you said, that it triggered a fear of me leaving (which I have no intention of, I love him so much)

There are times when I questioned how horrible the silent treatment made me feel, that I felt he was punishing me, because he'd say he had nothing to say to me if I tried to talk. But I do recall one time him telling me that it's a way for him to retreat, and to prevent himself from saying something worse. He does admit (in calm moments) that he has a problem with anger and expressing his emotions. I've learned to respect the silent treatment, and not force an exchange until he initiates it.

I don't believe he's intentionally being malicious, I honestly believe he goes into some zone that he can't control. He told me years ago he went to counseling for anger issues, so I know he's aware to a degree how he is, but I'm not sure how aware he is of the rages - on rare occasions I bring up something horrible he said, he says he doesn't remember saying that. For myself, it's hard being emotionally hurt, and while I want to be able to cope with it, at the same time I don't want to deaden myself inside either. I just get so frustrated with the false accusations, outright lies, nasty remarks, and what I see as unreasonable thinking. In general, he's a person ruled by emotion, and I'm ruled by logic...and when we clash, it's messy.

[Ozzie101]

I, too, am ruled by logic, so there are definite clashes when my H is dysregulating.

A LOT of people here deal with the silent treatment. If he admits himself that it's a way for him to retreat, it's probably best to let him have that. But, be sure you're taking care of yourself. Visit with friends. Spend time on a hobby. Go for walks. Read. Listen to music. Whatever fills your cup.

Have you done much reading about validation and communication techniques? I know one thing I was doing was JADEing (Justify Argue Defend Explain). That's a no-no, particularly in situations like this. We have some info on it here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

It's better to use SET (Support Empathy Truth):
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Oh, and the forgetting? It's exactly the same with my H. I've told him some of the things he said when he was dysregulating and he genuinely doesn't remember. My therapist says that's actually quite common, particularly for people who have a history of trauma. He may start to remember, he may not. In my case, my H believes me, thank goodness.

It's so hard to take the accusations and attacks, I know. I found myself going dead inside -- something my therapist warned against. Finding a good therapist can go a long way to helping you with that. And, as I said, take care of yourself. Do things you enjoy. Keep up relationships that mean something to you.

I hope you'll take a look at the links I posted and let us know what you think.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Staythecourse, although it is too bad we find ourselves in the situation, it is good to be among people who understand and have experienced similar situations. Welcome!

I may be repeating some of Ozzie (as always, well said!) but wanted to give you some more encouragement.

I am glad to hear you have confided in someone (isolation can be lonely and dangerous) and will also seek out a counselor. Personally speaking, I have been talking to my therapist for about 6 months and it has been a very helpful experience. I would encourage you to look for a T that has experience specifically with PDs.  Keep us posted on that!

What you wrote felt like a page out of my own uBPDw's playbook...multiple pages actually!

I heard frequently that if I only "loved her better", we wouldn't have these problems. I began to think I just had to be/do/think/act "good enough" to solve the problems. The 'tip toeing' around issues, walking on eggshells & avoiding known triggers left me feeling crazy but it also became "normal". Once I explained what was going on to a few close friends, family & my therapist, what I was describing sounded crazy.  To think that I have put up with so many years of such obviously bad behavior is hard but oh well, hindsight is 20/20! Please don't beat yourself up for not noticing it earlier, BPD can be really hard to nail down.

For me the threats of divorce started a year into our marriage and lasted for nearly a decade. They turned out to be empty threats. My uBPDw has admitted in recent years that she utilized various threats to force me to give in so she would get her way.

I often struggled to understand how someone who professed to love me could then switch into threatening divorce, restraining orders or packing the kids up to leave, and then, before long, switch back...it was bizzare and crazy making for me.

What I have come to realize is that love must be freely given & received, real love cannot be coerced. Someone cannot force another person to love them. Threats of divorce are really not so different from holding a gun to someone's head and saying, "You HAVE to love me." That is, in my opinion, impossible. They can try to coerce a behavior but no response to a threat can really be love.

Sadly, we DO love our BPD partners but their internal thought process can't seem to register it. Too often their feelings (shame/anger/fear), dictate the facts they assign to an experience. Just my perspective...

It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job of sticking to your own boundary on the financial demands. That can be one of the hardest things to do. Well done!

It sounds like you recognize where you have been JADE'ing in the past. Way to be self-reflecting. It isn't easy to implement SET and other tools but give the support, empathy & truth your best effort and let us know how it goes. Remember, validate what you can (his feelings) but don't validate the invalid (bad financial decisions).

Thanks for taking the time to open up to us. Keep up the good work. Keep reading & posting!

All_Out_of_Sync

[Panda39]

Hi staythecourse,

I just wanted to share information on boundaries and extinction bursts so you can get a look at what could be going on from a different standpoint.  It helps me to take things less personally when I can see what is going on...that can be hard to do when you're "in it" but easier to see from another perspective.

Boundaries...boundaries are about protecting yourself (as you are by setting a financial boundary) not about hurting or punishing your partner (be aware of the FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt that he is wielding).

Information on Boundaries...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

I often share this simplified boundaries analogy...

We've all seen this at the grocery store...

Mom's value: I want to take good care of my child and that includes eatting good healthy food.
Mom's boundary: Sweets are to be had at special occasions only
Mom's Action: Not buy sweets for her child while grocery shopping

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no for the third time, this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (what we call an Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want and if it gets them what they want once screaming in the grocery store will likely work again. What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.

This does not mean however that the little kid won't ask again the next time mom and he go to the grocery store...the kid will test the boundary again and so will the person with BPD in your life.  The key here is to always be consistent with your boundary.
 
So as you can see when you set a boundary, things can get worse before it gets better and that sounds like where you are.  He is escalating things in an attempt to boundary bust. 

Information on Extinction Bursts...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I also want to share information on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) because when we feel pressured we are usually in the FOG.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Hang in there and hold your ground when it comes to your boundary, I know it hard but it is okay to put yourself first sometimes it's essential.  Self-Care & Self-Protection are not dirty words.



Take Care,
Panda39

[GaGrl]

It sounds as if much of your current conflict involves finances. It is not unusual for people with BPD to have financial problems -- credit card debt due to impulsive spending, frequent job changes or not holding jobs due to workplace conflict.

I would caution you, if you haven't already, to secure your finances and maintain separate accounts. Avoid joint credit cards accounts where you could become responsible for his debt. My husband (a financial advisor) recommends to his clients that they have a his, hers, and ours account setup -- contribute to the joint account proportional to income, and pay household bills out of that.

Hold fast -- you know what you need to do for long term security.

[Staythecourse]

This site is a godsend to me.
I was feeling quite hopeless, and while I know this is not going to be an easy road, I at least now feel I have a chance to work through the tough periods.

Ozzie - thank you for the links, I've glanced at different parts on the site, but will begin to read more thoroughly, especially about SET (and I have to watch myself with the JADE part, as I know I tend to argue points like a lawyer )

All-out-of-Sync: I truly appreciate you sharing your experience, especially with the divorce threats. Not that I want others going thru this, but it helps to not feel so alone. The one remark hit home where you said "They can try to coerce a behavior but no response to a threat can really be love."...I hadn't said that back to him yet, but all I kept thinking was, Would you really want to live life with me under these circumstances, that I'm doing things as a result of a threat? And I know that if we went under financially, I would be a nightmare to live with, believe me.

Panda: the analogy with shopping with a child is to the point. I remember that well enough with my own kids, to not reward an undesirable behavior. This is trying my patience at times, and wearing me out, so I do have to force myself to find a distraction, and be good to myself. I will look into the links on the Extinction Burst. thank you so much.

GaGirl - the financial reminders are much appreciated. We had agreed before marrying that we would just keep all our own finances separate (which is also why I never knew til recently when he admitted how deep in debt he was), but now more than ever, even in the future, I will continue to keep my own. I will "hold fast"

Thank you, all of you, for the kind words, support, sharing experiences, and tips. Knowing there are people out there who have been through this, probably seen worse than I have, and are willing to support others and listen, is such a blessing.

[Ozzie101]

We've all been there (or still are there) and helping each other is one way of returning the favor, as it were, to all those who helped us. This site was a HUGE blessing to me as well.

I hope you'll keep posting. Tell us how it's going. Ask questions. Pitch in on other's threads too. You never know when you can help someone else.