Part 2: Low and Struggling

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338831.0

I'm pretty f'ed up on this right now.

She has been talking about a planned trip to see him for a visit in September.  I realized it would probably be best to approach it before then and try to frame things at least somewhat more as a "let's get things on track and heal so it's healthier for the trip."

I offered that we had moved off course from core principles we'd agreed on:  communication and other's feelings being paramount.  I emphasized that I did not want to interfere with the trip and that my hope was to bring things back to healthy as far as the poly, not to stop her relationship with him.  But, that I really needed to be able to voice what I felt about things as I saw them, including how I had felt aspects had been an affair.

I was careful in communication and she listened pretty calmly.  But, her response was that she would need to be able to feel free voicing her feelings in response.  Fair enough and I told her I welcomed being able to communicate.

She then continued on and on about how her end of things was big and complex and involved her feelings over 20 years together.  She reminded me of a conversation in which she had justified cheating on her ex-husband (and guess who with) because he had essentially ducked at marriage.  She went on to say that the trip could now not happen and that that would kill her chance to go to a Renn Faire she had really wanted to go to with him and they had seen this as a first opportunity to do so.  On top of that, she alluded to some other specific reason it would especially hurt to miss the trip, which "you'll learn what it is and understand as I finish explaining everything."

In the midst of that, I'd explained she did not have to mix the trip.  That it's a month away and all I really felt was needed was the ability to communicate and voice feelings.  If we were making progress there, there was no reason not to go.  But, her standard is basically "no, I need to cover 20 years if crap and that's not going to all be done in time."

So... not an ounce of sympathy for any pain or feeling of betrayal and a promise that in exchange for opening up about my hurts, I'll be met with 20 years of baggage hurled at me to discount everything I feel and a bonus of a guilt trip surprise of how it will have hurt her to miss the trip.

She's already mapped out how she's going to discount my feelings and telegraphed it like a warning.

How on earth am I to feel safe talking about it?  I mean, really... how would she feel if she felt betrayed by something she felt was an affair and was met with that when she said she needed to be able to open up and communicate about it?

I'm about ready to tell her "just... not gonna work... period."

[Witz_End]

*mod note: this thread was split from a previous discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338831.0

I'm pretty f'ed up on this right now.

She has been talking about a planned trip to see him for a visit in September.  I realized it would probably be best to approach it before then and try to frame things at least somewhat more as a "let's get things on track and heal so it's healthier for the trip."

I offered that we had moved off course from core principles we'd agreed on:  communication and other's feelings being paramount.  I emphasized that I did not want to interfere with the trip and that my hope was to bring things back to healthy as far as the poly, not to stop her relationship with him.  But, that I really needed to be able to voice what I felt about things as I saw them, including how I had felt aspects had been an affair.

I was careful in communication and she listened pretty calmly.  But, her response was that she would need to be able to feel free voicing her feelings in response.  Fair enough and I told her I welcomed being able to communicate.

She then continued on and on about how her end of things was big and complex and involved her feelings over 20 years together.  She reminded me of a conversation in which she had justified cheating on her ex-husband (and guess who with) because he had essentially ducked at marriage.  She went on to say that the trip could now not happen and that that would kill her chance to go to a Renn Faire she had really wanted to go to with him and they had seen this as a first opportunity to do so.  On top of that, she alluded to some other specific reason it would especially hurt to miss the trip, which "you'll learn what it is and understand as I finish explaining everything."

In the midst of that, I'd explained she did not have to mix the trip.  That it's a month away and all I really felt was needed was the ability to communicate and voice feelings.  If we were making progress there, there was no reason not to go.  But, her standard is basically "no, I need to cover 20 years if crap and that's not going to all be done in time."

So... not an ounce of sympathy for any pain or feeling of betrayal and a promise that in exchange for opening up about my hurts, I'll be met with 20 years of baggage hurled at me to discount everything I feel and a bonus of a guilt trip surprise of how it will have hurt her to miss the trip.

She's already mapped out how she's going to discount my feelings and telegraphed it like a warning.

How on earth am I to feel safe talking about it?  I mean, really... how would she feel if she felt betrayed by something she felt was an affair and was met with that when she said she needed to be able to open up and communicate about it?

I'm about ready to tell her "just... not gonna work... period."

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-

Whelp... I cannot say that I’m surprised.  Are you?  Did you by chance see your T before beginning this line of conversation with your W?

I am very sorry that your W is unable to grasp that ANY of her actions have hurt you.  She is incapable.  She is not only incapable of seeing how her past actions have hurt you, but she is incapable of seeing how what she is planning to do is going to hurt you.  AND... she is expecting YOU to take responsibility for that hurt.  AND she is expecting you to feel guilty.  And you’re buying into that.  Can you see how wrong that is?

It’s no wonder you’re about ready to tell her it’s not gonna work.  Because perhaps it’s not.  I can see how all of these things are conflicting in your head - they would be for most people! 

Please know, It’s not my intent to hurt you;  but as her husband, why are YOU expected to facilitate smooth sailing for her relationship with another man?   Why would you allow her to create “guilt” for you?

Here’s the thing.  I understand that you’ve gone through periods in the past where you’ve felt unable to meet your BPDw’s needs.  Everyone goes through up and down cycles in their lives.  Many loving couples ride over those waves together and don’t expect their partners to accept that “outsiders” will enter the marriage to satisfy desires and that there will be no repercussions.  The entrance of others alone, will dim the desires of the left out partner.  I know it would (and did) for me.  This is a complicated conversation- around depression.

I just don’t know... if we are chasing a bottomless pit that we cannot seem to fill no matter WHAT we do, or what we agree to... and all we get in return are reasons why what they’re doing is fine with THEM... Well... it can just feel so so empty.  And so lonely in here (pounding my heart).

And if your words cannot be heard, your feelings cannot be felt... then what is there, with her, in that place for you?  At some point, You have to consider you.

So if you are to agree to hash out 20 years from her, then perhaps she must agree to listen to what you have to say.  No.  I do not believe that adult love is unconditional.  It took me a LOT of work to get to today, but I’m here.

I’m sorry... what was the question?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Witz_End]

Whelp... I cannot say that I’m surprised.  Are you?  Did you by chance see your T before beginning this line of conversation with your W?

No.  As far as the T, I realized there would be a wait for an intake and then a first appointment.  With a month before the planned trip, I figured it best to try to ease forward.

I am very sorry that your W is unable to grasp that ANY of her actions have hurt you.  She is incapable.  She is not only incapable of seeing how her past actions have hurt you, but she is incapable of seeing how what she is planning to do is going to hurt you.  AND... she is expecting YOU to take responsibility for that hurt.  AND she is expecting you to feel guilty.  And you’re buying into that.  Can you see how wrong that is?

No, I'm not buying into that.  The pain had been more the feeling of "I can't  believe it.  Does she realize how far she's pushing me?"

I am just now finished with a long shift through the night.  I am going home and I am going to sleep.  I'm going to recheck my perception after, but right now my plan of action is to draw the line...

Fortunately, I began the conversation with the reminder of the core principles and the need to return to them.  I'll point to how communication was derailed a couple weeks ago on the topic, how she has responded here, and how nowhere have I seen concern or felt respect for how I feel.  "I do not feel safe opening up about my hurts.  I'm not sure there is a point when you have already laid out how you are going to dismiss it.  The two core principles are communication and respect of each others' feelings.  Not feeling able to safely communicate and not seeing any respect or concern for my feelings, I am not comfortable continuing with any polyamory or trips."

It's very simple.  If she's not willing to bring it back to healthy principles, it's not healthy.  If it's not healthy, it's not good for us.

So, unless she somehow realized she pushed too far and does a 180... watch for the nuclear explosion on the horizon later today.  You may see it.

Please know, It’s not my intent to hurt you;  but as her husband, why are YOU expected to facilitate smooth sailing for her relationship with another man?   Why would you allow her to create “guilt” for you?

Smooth sailing for her relationship?  No.  I stopped being her sanity check on bumps between them.  I used to advise her when I saw her jumping to conclusions, but she did the other day and was complaining to me.  I let it in one ear and out the other and kept my mouth shut even though I could see she was reading into things.  Their relationship is on them.

It's hard to guilt me when I see the move.  She chose to skip the trip.  I told her it wouldn't be necessary.  She pressed on with insistence on her choice and talked about how it would hurt her.  But, it's her choice.

Meanwhile, I need to get home and to bed.

[Gemsforeyes]

Have a good sleep, WE.  I’m on your side!  I’m your “devil’s” advocate.  Reminding you that every feeling and thought you have matters.

Gems

[Witz_End]

Have a good sleep, WE.  I’m on your side!  I’m your “devil’s” advocate.  Reminding you that every feeling and thought you have matters.

Thank you.  I'm about to.

And of course I walked in to "good wife" all concerned that I be able to get my sleep and sympathetic almost to overcompensation about that.

It might be that she messaged me earlier in the morning asking how my shift was going.  I told her I'd mentally been out of it, making mistakes that were adding to time.

She asked if there was anything she could do and though I did thank her for asking, my reply was a but curt and probably revealing:  "Reverse time and redo the conversation."

Problem is, this compensatory consideration is about surface things... sympathy about a long work shift, consideration about needing sleep... it'll make her feel she considers me (or it's about countering how she probably guesses I feel)... but does it extend to the important things?  *sigh*

I'm just tired of it.  It's bad when your wife is being thoughtful and you don't know you can even trust that.  Just like the time she was in a predictable idealization - devaluation cycle and I burst into painful tears after she heaped praise on me.

And, yet... I love her.  It would hurt much less if I didn't.

[Witz_End]

Fortunately, I began the conversation with the reminder of the core principles and the need to return to them.  I'll point to how communication was derailed a couple weeks ago on the topic, how she has responded here, and how nowhere have I seen concern or felt respect for how I feel.  "I do not feel safe opening up about my hurts.  I'm not sure there is a point when you have already laid out how you are going to dismiss it.  The two core principles are communication and respect of each others' feelings.  Not feeling able to safely communicate and not seeing any respect or concern for my feelings, I am not comfortable continuing with any polyamory or trips."

It's very simple.  If she's not willing to bring it back to healthy principles, it's not healthy.  If it's not healthy, it's not good for us.

So, unless she somehow realized she pushed too far and does a 180... watch for the nuclear explosion on the horizon later today.  You may see it.

I did what I said here.

No nuclear blast.  I saw a deadly look at one point, but it went the other way.

She went into full on terror panic, flew out of the room.  A statement about how this hurt her trust but then she fear about whether we can work.  I think she wen up to an upstairs bathroom and locked herself in, but I did not follow.

I am worried about whether I should be on suicide watch.  This by is going to be a bumpy as hell ride.

I feel horrible, but know it had to be done.

Edit to add:


And the moment I hit send on that, she came in the door, deliberate body language,sat down and in a low, even but deadly/menacing voice said, "I need you to do something.  I don't care how, but I do care when.  I need you to express what you said you need to express."

I asked to understand why.  She said because I need to voice it and she needs me to voice it.  But, note the low menacing voice.

"I just told you that I do not feel safe expressing it.  And you're coming to me with a demand that I do."

Back out the door she went with some neverminds and more panic, mixed with some anger.

I hate this.

[Witz_End]

And there it is.

This turned to a calm, sad round of "staying with me does you no good.  As your friend, I would tell you to go.  I will not see it as abandoning me, because I see it that way."

"You may not, but as I feel now, I would see it that way.  I have no intention of leaving you."

Which turned to an ultimatum:  either leave or stay, but if you stay you need to let go of holding onto any feelings about this (because she had told me she needed me to voice them - her demand).

I calmly pointed out that amounts to a manipulation.

"Fine.  I'll be the bad guy.  Go.  We are over."

I'm now out of the house and away.  I'm opting to just give her the space.

[Witz_End]

Curious on anyone's take.  This, sent at about the same time (if I heard right) she was watching marriage counseling type videos on youtube.

I'm not trying to start any dialogue up. I just wanted to say the following...

I am sorry you feel you were second in my life. I never meant to make you feel that way. I know how PLEASE READty that feels and I would never do that to you on purpose.

Thank you for all the work you have been doing on the house. Our kids need a home. Thank you for your efforts in providing that.

I am sorry you never felt heard. It sucks to not feel heard, and I'm sorry that I was never able to make you feel heard.

Thank you for the times you tried to listen to me. People always speak of you as a good listener. There was a time when you were good at it with me. I know how hard it is to listen with emotions awry. Thank you for all your efforts over the years, even past your emotions.

I am sorry I have done things that have given you feelings of betrayal. I never meant to betray you. I promised to be your best friend. I have apparently failed miserably. I'm sorry for that. You deserve better.

Thank you for the little things you have done over the years. Thank you for the times you have run to the store to get me or the kids a snack, or a bottle of wine, or an ingredient for dinner.

I am sorry I failed as your wife. I'm sorry I failed as your friend. I'm sorry I failed as your partner. I'm sorry it did not work.

Thank you for the big things. Thank you for the necklace that brought us together. Thank you for the tours of castles together. Thank you for the walks we shared in the early days where we could tell each other everything. Thank you for the furniture you built. Thank you for giving me (us) such beautiful children. Thank you for joining us up here when the kids so desperately needed you seven years ago. Thank you for the efforts in learning about cars, building, putting up with my family, and generally living and adjusting to a life you probably never imagined.

I love you like I could never love another. I will miss you very much. I will miss us.

~Formerly known as your "sky".

She struggles so much with admitting anything specific.  It's typical for her to say "I'm sorry I failed as your wife," but not really admit why or how... "I'm sorry you feel..." "I'm sorry you never felt..." "I'm sorry I have done things that have given you feelings of..."  These are things that are uncommon attempt at apology and seem to acknowledge how she sees me as feeling (though a little distorted).

There's no "I see that I strayed from you and us as a priority and am sorry for putting you second."  It's distorted into an absolute and put on me that I felt that way.

I shake my head a bit because I know darn well from experience that she'd zero in on the word choice and have a heyday with it, were it me.  And maybe she's trained me to be critical of it and feel it's not really apology when I should be hearing a spirit behind the attempt?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-

I’m sorry...

Are you in the house?  Is she in the house?

Have you had any face to face communication today, after receiving this email? (I’m assuming it was an e-mail)

Yes, I see your point about her projecting your feelings, so to speak.  This is an attempt at empathy.  But I do see her taking some responsibility for “failures”... and I see her walking and arriving at the admission that “I love you like I could never love another”...

Is she arriving at some conclusion by saying she will miss you?  She will miss us?

Is she leaving the marriage?  My take is that the choice would be hers, NOT yours; at least by what she’s written in those last words.  Am I missing something?

But then... right before then, there appears to be an opening,  the I love you.  Can YOU walk into that?  I don’t know?

Has she done things like this before?

What would happen if the two of you re-introduced intimacy and took poly out of the equation for a while?  Went on walks and talked?  With her reminiscing, there COULD be an opening for a way back to a deeper connection.  To see if you could find your way back to one another...as a primary mono couple.  How things began.

Is it too late for that?

Your thoughts?

Gems

[Witz_End]

Are you in the house?  Is she in the house?

Have you had any face to face communication today, after receiving this email? (I’m assuming it was an e-mail

Yes, we both are.  We even slept in the same bed last night, though separate and more like roommates sharing a bed.

The email was last night.  Face to face, she is hard to read.  It may seem on the outside she is devaluing herself, but I sense that that sits precariously in a place where a slight trigger and it swings.

Yes, I see your point about her projecting your feelings, so to speak.  This is an attempt at empathy.  But I do see her taking some responsibility for “failures”...

This is her in self-devaluation mode.  She does and doesn't take responsibility.  What she tends to do is say how horrible she is and "I can't believe you've stuck with me through all my crap," but the sense I usually get is that she is more *feeling* that she has failed than *seeing/facing* where she has failed.  It's more an acknowledgment of her feelings than what she had actually done that has hurt.

It's been a frustration because things have never really been fixed because she has a weakness for seeing and facing her mistakes.  I don't want to rub her nose in them and it's not about forcing anything, but we can't grow when she's not able to see and admit "yeah... I screwed up here and it hurt you and I am sorry for that."

I see the attempt at empathy and appreciate it, but what signals more of the same is that the essence I see in the email is "I (feel like) I failed" (general feeling of self-devaluation) but when the rubber meets the road of taking responsibility for ways she has hurt me, it's pushed off as "I'm sorry you never felt heard" as opposed to "I'm sorry I have not listened and heard as much as I should."  It's a way of working around actually taking responsibility of what she had done to bring me to a point I feel that way.

and I see her walking and arriving at the admission that “I love you like I could never love another”...

I do see that and this is the flip side.  It's why I've hung on for 20 years.  Each time she had strayed from putting us before him, she has returned to seeing that there are things she feels about me and things in our relationship she believed she never could find elsewhere.  She loses sight of it.

Is she arriving at some conclusion by saying she will miss you?  She will miss us?

Is she leaving the marriage?  My take is that the choice would be hers, NOT yours; at least by what she’s written in those last words.  Am I missing something?

See the series of posts above it for how it played out, but the result of things was that I calmly told her that because two critical pillars of polyamory were not present (communication and respect of other's feelings/comforts), I did not feel comfortable continuing with polyamory.

This was a last ditch thing.  I did not want to have to do it, but if I could not be heard and my feelings respected, there was really no other option.  So, the boundary was put in place.

What that boundary meant was that she would lose anything more than platonic friendship with him.  It basically cut that off.

That threw her into a very visible panic.  She looked like a trapped animal, her speech raced in a frantic way and she fled the room.  I did not follow.  She returned with a demand that I voice the things I had told her I did not feel safe voicing (see above), dangerous tone to her voice, and I reiterated that I did not feel safe voicing those things.  So, back off she went.

A little bit later, she told me I should leave her and I patiently waited through that, telling her I have no intention of doing so.  She used that to throw out a manipulation:  either leave me or if you stay, you can not hold any of what you're upset about against me.  I was surprisingly calm and pointed out that that was a manipulation, asking her how much she holds against me from 20 years.

"Fine.  I'll be the bad guy.  Go.  We're over," was her response.

It's a tantrum.  She wanted me to voice how I felt betrayed by the affair so she could throw 20 years of (paint me black here) back at me to justify why it was not, why she wasn't doing anything wrong and I was the true villain.  She made it abundantly clear and it threw her into a tantrum when I drew a line in response.

Technically, we are split (her choice).  But, this is a tantrum.  I can't say for certain it won't become longer term or permanent in her mind, so I'm not making any assumptions.  I don't think it was an intentional calculated manipulation as it came out so much as an emotional, panic decision, but I would not doubt that she is waiting to see if I waver and backtrack.

Has she done things like this before?

Ummm... not exactly like this.  This came about differently.  But ingredients of it have happened.  She has said "we're done" hundreds of times over the years and times when it actually did mean a day or week of kinda being split apart but living together.

What would happen if the two of you re-introduced intimacy and took poly out of the equation for a while?  Went on walks and talked?  With her reminiscing, there COULD be an opening for a way back to a deeper connection.  To see if you could find your way back to one another...as a primary mono couple.  How things began.

Is it too late for that?

The poly is out and will stay out unless she can hear and respect my feelings, ideally with at least a little bit of recognition or ownership.  Primarily, I need enough reassurance she sees it to have some trust she will avoid another round of the same down the line.

It may sound like a hard stance and there may be those images of me slamming first down on table saying "she MUST..." but really it's what anyone who has felt betrayed by an affair would need:  to be heard and see something in return that says doing it another time will be avoided.

Honestly, it's not the affairs that are killing things.  It's how she's responded... deception, lies, avoidance of taking any responsibility, not respecting my feelings (and by extension me) enough to want to hear them.

There is a way for that, yes.  We could.  As for the question of too late?  I'm not sure.  I think a huge factor is her willingness to actually face and change things.  I'm willing to work with her and work on myself, but I see things sliding back into patterns not healthy for either of us without meaningful work from her.

That doesn't mean tackling the whole BPD issue.  It just means... something that is meaningful progress from her end.

[ct21218]

It sounds like she doesn't have the guts to leave you, but she is pushing you as far as she can to get you to leave.  I personally don't think adding another person to a relationship will do anything but tear the two of you apart.  It's really a matter of how much you are willing to take and I personally wouldn't stand for any sort of infidelity. Why do you stay?  She seems very disrespectful towards you.  It also sounds like she hates herself so she doesn't understand why you would want to be with her.

[Witz_End]

It sounds like she doesn't have the guts to leave you, but she is pushing you as far as she can to get you to leave.

Yes, because...

It also sounds like she hates herself so she doesn't understand why you would want to be with her.

That's the world of BPD, right?  There is a weakness to facing shame inside that they turn on themselves.  It's a part of the push to push you away.

It's not surprising it came up here.  I had tried to address my feelings in the past and they were pushed back down with anger and, in one case, a threat.  Here, now, I drew a boundary and I think she realizes facing what she's done is an inevitability. 

I personally don't think adding another person to a relationship will do anything but tear the two of you apart.

I'd mentioned upstream that we've had success with polyamory as well.  This was not that.  In both these cases, it was different.  Not only that, but the first time this happened, poly wasn't even a thought between us or a factor.  Just as there are a lot of people on this board whose spouse had affairs despite a monogamous relationship, the poly isn't the problem.

That said, it is a question whether to continue.  I've already put the brakes on it and made it clear that 1. this was not polyamory and didn't respect ageed upon pillars, and 2. with those pillars not valued, poly is not on the table.  Where things go from here is a question mark and something she and I both realize is a lot of trust needs to be rebuilt in the relationship.

It's really a matter of how much you are willing to take and I personally wouldn't stand for any sort of infidelity. Why do you stay?  She seems very disrespectful towards you. 

Everyone has their limits.  I am near mine.  Yours may have been past years ago.   But, why does anyone stick with a pwBPD?  Why have you?  There's a lot of disrespect and even abuse in these relationships.  But, usually there is something to the person and the relationship that is the other side of that coin.  This thread grapples with a dark side of things.

[Witz_End]

I'm not sure how many people are actually following this thread, but it actually had helped to be able to voice things.  As much as it may seem to be explosion of drama (and I actually hate doing that, believe it or not), it's been a way to crystallize things in my own mind.  Usually, I hold that in and process it inside.

As things stand now, we are stepped back to rebuild friendship.  She realized that a lot of our patterns and the built up baggage threatens that and friendship had been a base for our relationship that had eroded over the years.  She wants to be able to reconnect with that and work toward building mutual trust and respect she realizes has gone.

A lot of that is her idea and I agree.  This whole thing has her stepped back and she spent a lot of last night in a surprisingly balanced mode in which she was recognizing *both* of our roles in things in a very thoughtful and balanced way, no black/white or all/nothing.  It was very productive and she even talked about how she is examining her own manipulativeness and wants to take the time to do a lot of self examination and self work.  Discussion even delved into how things like NPD are extremes of traits or tendencies all of us have, especially in times of emotion and stress.

She has also been spending s lot of time watching marriage counseling videos and talked about watching one that listed ways trust can be damaged.  "I saw where you do this, this and this... and where I do that, that and that."  So, amazingly, she is looking at herself, but without the extreme of splitting herself into all or nothing valuation.

How long it will last?  Dunno.

As far as him?  Apparently, she had been already questioning that relationship.  Something she was realizing was that while he makes her happy, he does not fulfill her.  She has ambitions and he has no real ambition in life, nor does he really support hers.  As she puts it, they are too "yin and yang."  So, independent of my drawing the line, she had already been contemplating whether they work together as more than friends.  That conversation is looming for her, possibly tonight, but they will be over shortly.

[ct21218]

So with my marriage, my ex was diagnosed BPD and was a compulsive gambler.  What eventually eroded the relationship was the years of lies and broken promises. We tried again after we got divorced and the financial manipulation and lies started again after 6 - 9 months of relative calm.

My most recent relationship was fairly stable for 2 years and was built around honesty.  He had serious rage issues and eventually put his hands on me.  It happened twice and that was it for me.  He has PTSD for sure and may or may not have BPD.

The relationships were not all that similar but ended with a boundary cross I wasn't able to live with.  I would say that neither of them were able to self reflect in any meaningful way.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-

I see these as some really positive signs, don’t you?  In addition to your responses to her behaviors, she seems to be arriving at some realizations on her own, some self- reflection.  And as you as you say - she IS looking at herself.  Good.

See if you can stay by her side on this, not get ahead of her, but by her side.  Perhaps ask her (if she brings up the marriage counseling videos) if she thinks it would help YOU to watch what she has seen.  So you can be better informed to communicate on these. 

Remind me... you’ve read about NOT to JADE, correct?  Use caution while she’s in this self-reflection mode.  You want to facilitate her staying there.

Finally, I get the trust building and coming back to rebuilding the “friendship”; but what about rekindling intimacy and becoming lovers?  Is there a way to introduce that topic into conversation?  Perhaps if you are both able to find your way back to one another sensually, poly and outsiders can become a topic of the past. I’m sure this will take some time, but how can you bring up that YOU would like to be her lover?  If in fact you would?..

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

And ct21218-

I’m sorry you are struggling so.  Perhaps it would be helpful for you to post so that you can get the feedback you truly deserve.  These relationships are very difficult.  I too, suffered at the hands of my exH...it hurts far more than the external pain...long after the bruises fade..

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Witz_End]

The relationships were not all that similar but ended with a boundary cross I wasn't able to live with.  I would say that neither of them were able to self reflect in any meaningful way.

That's kinda the crux of it... where the boundary is that is the border between being able to live with it and not.

In her case, she can self reflect at times. That doesn't mean she can see blindspots and sometimes it is clear she is not seeing the mechanisms inside her or is using the agility of her mind to avoid certain things, but there can be honest effort and sometimes insights.

I was soo soo close to bringing up BPD last night as we were talking about how everyone can sometimes show disorder traits.  I had set the stage for it by saying that even if someone doesn't have a disorder clinically, sometimes understanding the disorder that they sometimes may show traits for under stress can help.  Given how well she received it, it could have been so easy to segue into BPD as a "not to say you have it, but a way I've sought out ways I can work with traits you sometimes show under stress is to explore this."

When a person has those periods where they do self reflect, there's at least a little bit of hope that they might come around to at least seeing enough to work towards making a difference.  Add that to the other side of the dichotomy - how wonderful she can be when not pulled off that course and into BPD-land.  These are factors.

I go back and forth on where I see the possibility there will be change.  Sometimes things look grim on that and others they do not.  That's part of being tugged along on a roller coaster as they shift.  But maybe somewhere in this stepping back into friendship and into a period of her own introspection there could be possibility.

I do think that depends on how I draw lines.  

[Witz_End]

Hi WE-

I see these as some really positive signs, don’t you?  In addition to your responses to her behaviors, she seems to be arriving at some realizations on her own, some self- reflection.  And as you as you say - she IS looking at herself.  Good.

See if you can stay by her side on this, not get ahead of her, but by her side.  Perhaps ask her (if she brings up the marriage counseling videos) if she thinks it would help YOU to watch what she has seen.  So you can be better informed to communicate on these. 

It is.  And she has talked about them and shared them with me.  It brought some discussion last night that I think was helpful.

For example, she discussed one video covering how to formulate voicing complaints so they don't spark confrontation.  Something that perplexed her was that she said, "I see where I have approached things exactly like that in the past.  I also see where you have done the exact same thing.  But, it hasn't worked for us and I don't know why."

I offered that there's probably more to it and other dynamics at play.  For example, "we're both pretty intuitive, intelligent people... so, we may have a tendency to look beyond the careful wording and draw conclusions about what the person really means or feels underneath it.  I think we also have a tendency to react out of the emotion rather than take the time to understand what the other person is trying to voice."

It made total sense to her and she seemed to take it on board.  Now, how she'll apply it herself, what she'll see, and how long that will hold... dunno.

Remind me... you’ve read about NOT to JADE, correct?  Use caution while she’s in this self-reflection mode.  You want to facilitate her staying there.

I have.  I should probably read more.  I also do have my own tendencies to watch here and it is a careful road to walk.

Finally, I get the trust building and coming back to rebuilding the “friendship”; but what about rekindling intimacy and becoming lovers?  Is there a way to introduce that topic into conversation?  Perhaps if you are both able to find your way back to one another sensually, poly and outsiders can become a topic of the past. I’m sure this will take some time, but how can you bring up that YOU would like to be her lover?  If in fact you would?..

I think there may be a misunderstanding that I was not her lover.  Yes, there was that brief period where things had gone way too far and I was "demoted" so to speak.  It was a brief period and other than that, I *was* her lover and her husband - most especially when things were working healthily.

I do feel that there is an understandable tendency for people used to monogamy to want to see polyamory as a source of this trouble and monogamy as an ideal to work for here.  It's kind of why I was hesitant to bring up the poly aspect, but did so because I wanted to give a more accurate context.  Poly can work and has for us - but it does not mean we will continue with it.

I'm not a rapid poly person and see a lot of value in monogamy, do am not anti-monogamy. I don't really partake in the poly, myself, even.  But a key point here is that 1 of the 2 periods of infidelity was during monogamy for us and I have seen a lot of monogamous members struggling with infidelity in their relationships.  Infidelity seems a rampant thing with BPD and BPD is the source of that, not whether the couple is poly or mono.  It seems no less likely to happen in the mono world.

As for rekindling, that is her goal.  She sees it as rebuilding the foundation (friendship) as a part of re-walking that path.  She just wants to do it in a measured way, avoiding the temptation to rush or jump.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi WE-

Just a quick thought a bit off topic.  Are you and your W doing fun and joyous things together?  I think this is really important as a reminder of what brought you together in the first place.

I know that life gets in the way.  We HAVE to plan for joy.  Paddle a canoe, go for a bike ride, a picnic, a hike, to a baseball game, a sunset sail...

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes