Part 3:Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

*mod note: This thread is a continuation of this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339139.0

Using the money example:

Historically I questioned spending (caused conflict) and provided money (inconsistent boundaries) ("naughty daughter you shouldn't spend your pocket money on weed... here's this weeks, don't spend it on weed")

I moved to providing money when asked, no questions, and stating our upcoming financial requirements, she volunteered inaccurate information, omitting to tell me of "other" things she'd spent money on which turned out to be the bulk of expenses. (no boundaries resulted in lies and more money requests). ("here's you pocket money daughter... oh you want some more money for a new unicorn saddle... you smell of weed... here you go")

I then moved to "as I informed you, we have XYZ to pay and you have income ABC, there is no money", to which she replied "I will just take it out of savings then" (set a firm boundary and didn't yield to threats (and taking from savings is a threat), we get to find out if she removes from savings as I have no access to that account) "You have a job, spend your own money (on weed)"... "ha ha ha ha F U I will just take money from the family holiday coin jar"

I don't want to play poker with someone holding a gun who's prepared to use it. I have to starve the flames of oxygen to get everyone back to baseline. At the moment I have no perception whether or not it's a me or him contest. I'm pretty sure she's split between the security of being with me (which I run the risk of destabilising with boundaries) and the excitement and idealised delusion of him. Since I don't think "at whatever costs" is the way forwards, I moving towards (certainly not there yet) showing her the space where a relationship can exist (and potentially with this action where it can't exist) and seeing what shakes out. I will not sell my soul to the devil.

Enabler

[Enabler]

*mod note: This thread is a continuation of this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339139.0

Using the money example:

Historically I questioned spending (caused conflict) and provided money (inconsistent boundaries) ("naughty daughter you shouldn't spend your pocket money on weed... here's this weeks, don't spend it on weed")

I moved to providing money when asked, no questions, and stating our upcoming financial requirements, she volunteered inaccurate information, omitting to tell me of "other" things she'd spent money on which turned out to be the bulk of expenses. (no boundaries resulted in lies and more money requests). ("here's you pocket money daughter... oh you want some more money for a new unicorn saddle... you smell of weed... here you go")

I then moved to "as I informed you, we have XYZ to pay and you have income ABC, there is no money", to which she replied "I will just take it out of savings then" (set a firm boundary and didn't yield to threats (and taking from savings is a threat), we get to find out if she removes from savings as I have no access to that account) "You have a job, spend your own money (on weed)"... "ha ha ha ha F U I will just take money from the family holiday coin jar"

I don't want to play poker with someone holding a gun who's prepared to use it. I have to starve the flames of oxygen to get everyone back to baseline. At the moment I have no perception whether or not it's a me or him contest. I'm pretty sure she's split between the security of being with me (which I run the risk of destabilising with boundaries) and the excitement and idealised delusion of him. Since I don't think "at whatever costs" is the way forwards, I moving towards (certainly not there yet) showing her the space where a relationship can exist (and potentially with this action where it can't exist) and seeing what shakes out. I will not sell my soul to the devil.

Enabler

[formflier]

OK..I'm tracking.

How does playing poker relate to you either giving her money or not giving her money when there is no rational argument that she "needs" it?

Asked another way.  Why not leave the door open to her having access to your money by walking the path of your values (which are very clear)?

There is no force involved there...it's a relationship "offer".  I don't see this as a game if perhaps this is the "poker" you are referring to.

She clearly asserts that she has the funds to do it without you...so...?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Asked another way.  Why not leave the door open to her having access to your money by walking the path of your values (which are very clear)?

She's made it pretty clear that she doesn't want to and doesn't have to. As I said, the space for a healthy relationship is there, there's few barriers to entry, she just needs to choose to be there... or not. It seems likely 'or not' but what kind of relationship do I have when someone wants to eat all the cookies and smash the family piggie bank on the floor just because they feel sad about something (likely not associated with me) or angry with me (likely nothing I knew about). It's very much a "you touch me, I'll stab you in the eye" feel about it.

Maybe poker isn't the right game!

[formflier]

So..then..perhaps I've misunderstood.

It would seem that you are offering her money under certain circumstances, she is declining and life is moving on without you funding your wife.

Is this the case or are you still funding her activities and her vocational pursuit of joy instead of money?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

No, that is not happening, and have no idea how it could happen since she would lie about “the circumstances”. I offered money to fund the life of our family on the understanding it was for just that. She knows this hence she justifies the request for more funds with a list of purchases (which rarely total the money she asks for). Should I request a monthly audit? Is that not acting like a parent? Should I get a Go Henry account so I can monitor expenses?

She has no intention of being transparent, responsible or accountable and she doesn’t believe I have any rite to request she is. As far as she’s concerned “I owe her”.

[formflier]

So you are no longer giving funds to you wife?  Do I have that correct? (trying to clarify the "no that is not happening")

Best,

FF

[formflier]

She has no intention of being transparent, responsible or accountable and she doesn’t believe I have any rite to request she is. As far as she’s concerned “I owe her”.

And circle back to earlier where we all seem to agree that "buying into" their distorted view/ideas etc etc is generally good to avoid.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I don’t buy into her delusion hence I ask(ed), but that creates conflict.

There’s not a black or white answer, there’s a path which involves some conflict but purposeful surgical boundaries.

Maybe I’m missing something very obvious

[Notwendy]

I'm pretty sure she's split between the security of being with me (which I run the risk of destabilising with boundaries) and the excitement and idealised delusion of him.

I think this is a good point, and I agree if I were in your position, I would not want to be financing the fun with OM along with the other responsibilities at home. Seems she wants the best of both worlds. Secure stable provider ( Daddy) and "bad boy" fantasy romance with no rules or limits.

She's not a teen age girl though. She's an adult and in the adult world this kind of thing doesn't work without both parties in agreement ( like some sort of "open marriage").

In a traditional arrangement though one has to make a choice. It may not take away any "wants". I think we all are subjected to attraction at some point, but we choose fidelity. I think this is something your wife would need to choose too. It's like many choices- I want to eat this big piece of cake or I want to fit into my clothes. I want to sleep in but I want to keep my job. I find this person attractive but I want to stay married...

[formflier]

Hey..I think I was confusing by asking to many questions at once.

Are you still giving money to your wife?  (I was under the impression you were, now I'm not so sure)

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Are you still giving money to your wife?  (I was under the impression you were, now I'm not so sure)

No, I am not and have not for the last 2 months... I guess but I don't know for sure that she is removing what she needs from savings under her control.

[formflier]

No, I am not and have not for the last 2 months... I guess but I don't know for sure that she is removing what she needs from savings under her control.

Where did that savings come from?  Your earnings?


Note:  As a "finance guy" (I kinda put us in the same category) I find it really weird to run multi-million dollar budgets that get audited to the penny and then have this gaping hole in "family finances" (I'm trying to think of it as "her finances") that I "know" are used under "bpd rules".

However, that weirdness is far better than the chaos of my wife bouncing in and out of financial accounts and randomly abrogating her "word" about what she would or wouldn't do.

Not a perfect solution by any means..but my life is far calmer. 

Hang in there..

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

In a traditional arrangement though one has to make a choice.

But do they though? And how would this work in BPD land?

She has moved the pieces on the chess board such that I have to make that choice for her. Starting the divorce process has put 'the marriage' on the very tippytoes of the cliff, all she wants is a slight nudge (from me) and "I've decided for her". She rejects the proposition that any of this is her choice, and instead still defers to the argument that "she can't stay with an abusive person... if I was a pupil in a school and my teacher sexually assaulted me, would I be allowed back in his class" (writing that down it struck me what a terrible argument that is... the teacher would tried in a court and be would be in prison... I have not (other than the court of BPD)!).

Choice is not something my W does... things happen TO HER... sometimes by her arrangement!

[Enabler]

Where did that savings come from?  Your earnings?

When we bought this house we held some money back with a view to extend. It's been stashed in her account ever since. She has never really saved a meaningful amount of money (maybe a couple of k through her working career), she had some inheritance which in theory went into our first house purchase. I think it's fair to say that 95% of the savings are attributable to my earnings.   

[Notwendy]

Enabler, I don't think I'd be financing an adult living like a child either. I don't even do that with my own kids. Their # 1 job is to do their best in school, and they've had jobs too. What we finance reflects our values- which is to be a responsible adult. So we finance things with educational value, sports participation, etc. Yes, we also help with some fun stuff but they are expected to take care of what they are responsible for.

"You can go out with your friends but first, you need to have done your homework" ( ie dishes ). I don't do their homework ( dishes) for them while they go out with their friends. You can't exactly say this to your wife, but when she does go out--- the dishes can still be there when she returns. So can the homework if it isn't done and the child can face the teacher the next day.

I don't blame you for not financing her while she's having an affair. I don't think I'd be doing the dishes for her either. 

[Enabler]

Arggggg... I think I fell at the 3rd fence.

So, W comes to me yesterday morning and demands I send her money. She's a bit wired and frankly I'm not calm either. I address why she's angry to which she says that she gets very anxious asking me for money as she believes I'm accusatory and treat her like a common criminal. (retrospectively I though about this and she's probably right, I am anxious and I am accusatory because she's deceitful about money... and the conversations about money are never "Oh, I got a better paid job so I am going to shoulder more of the financial burden" or "I've decided on a budget to work to, I want to start saving for things taking more control and more responsibilities" or "hey, I'd like to sit down with you so we can make a financial plan."... nothing like that ever). She then shows me her credit card transactions and her current account transactions on her phone... ironically a Whatsapp message pops up mid way through (details hidden), to which I just said "Hu... unfortunate timing"... anyway, it all looked very reasonable on an item by item basis. I wasn't flustered, I wasn't being irrational but she appealed to my 'reasonable' nature. She started to go on and on and on about how she doesn't do this and doesn't do that and how she's a victim because she gets anxiety every time she spends money and the credit card people have made it oh so confusing and this has happened and that has happened, and I don't ever drink when I go out (BS)... STOP... "how can we come to a solution to this problem? I don't care about who's fault it is, the facts I care about are that every month I see less and less money in my account and I NEED to safe to pay the tax man £5.5k. We cannot continue to spend like this EVEN IF it all seems reasonable and it's all discounted or whatever. We have a finite amount of money and we can't spend more than that. I am sick and tired of being the rounding number. I spend less than 6% of my income on me, I'm not buying clothes discounted or not."

Basically no solution was produced, I rescued, told her to stop using the credit card, wiped the slate clean and sent her £1500.

I can justify it with all the reasonableness I like... but I probably just made things worse.

Enabler ... yeah... definitely Enabler

[formflier]

Is the credit card joint or just in her name?

You would be ahead if she would "give up" the credit card in exchange for $1500.

Hang in there...we've all done stuff we wished we hadn't.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

It's in her name.

The only silver lining is that she hasn't touched her savings account. Downside is that she's not had to bare any consequences (other than speaking to me) for overspending. Typically I thought of a whole bunch of points I would liked to have made post event... like "Do you not realise my life would be so much easier if I didn't have these conversations with you? I don't want this at all, I don't want it to appear that I am controlling you with access to money, I would like you to take control and responsibility."

When specifically asked about why she gets anxiety when she spends money, she said it's because of me... which in my mind is not valid, since I am not the arbiter of whether or not we have spent to much or not, I am just relaying the facts. She should be feeling anxiety when she spends money because she accepts that she is not in full control of any sort of budget OR financial knowledge of what would constitute spending to much or the right amount. It's her lack of willingness to empower herself with responsibility which is causing her own anxiety. I was/have/am utterly willing to empower her with the knowledge. She's outsourced the responsibility to me.

Enabler

[formflier]

  Downside is that she's not had to bare any consequences (other than speaking to me) for overspending. 

Define overspending.

Break that down into

How you define it.

How she defines it

Please give us whatever figures/description you feel comfortable with on how much she earns and how much she spends.  If you have an opinion on how much of her spending is "excess" or "wasteful"..that's helpful too.

Switching gears.

Do you think the message from OM was by chance...?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

My guess is that message from OM was a consequence of her conversing with him just before she came downstairs to ask me for money. No doubt conversation went a little like this “my life is terrible, enabler is so abusive, I hate asking him for money, he always interrogates me when I ask for funds”. He no doubt didn’t expect her to be showing me the statements on her phone when he comprised his ever so thoughtful and sympathetic response and bingo.

W earns ~£750 a month working 3+ days a week. Credit card gets automatically paid off in full each month set up years back after she kept forgetting to pay it... only last month it didn’t because she didn’t have enough money in her account so payment of £750 bounced. She added another £500 to it this month. Last few months have been expensive with holidays but it doesn’t really explain all of the problems. For example, net net after buying and sending a bunch of stuff back she has probably spent £400+ on clothes in the last month or so, specifically after I said to her that we needed to save money. Even our youngest said “mummy has loads of clothes in her cupboard” mid way through the (by this point) discussion.

In my W eyes she sees these things as a need, as though she would be walking around naked if she wasn’t dressed ‘correctly’. Don’t get me wrong, she looks fabulous all the time, she’s a very attractive woman (new clothes or not) and dresses phenomenally... but... these are NOT needs, they are wants. Also, she doesn’t ever mention clothes expenditure apart from the kids clothes when she is asking for money... which I find deceptive.

Divorce mediators coat £200 per person for a 2 hr session. My sense given what she says she wants... needs... a divorce, that would come as a vastly superior need than a new pair of trousers or another 5 running tops (to go with the other 15).

I chuckled at the end of the conversation that she and her friends mock me for my financial conservatism yet here she is asking for my money. She suggested she’d be happy to run through where all our money goes but I’m not sure whether that was just a means to and ends to get the money rather than willingness to come up with solutions to the problem.

So in strict answer to your question:

My definition -

When we have significant headwinds or liabilities coming up ie when we have a lot of money going out and not much coming in. I define irresponsible spending as anything that isn’t either necessity like food and travel, light entertainment, kids stuff (to a limit) and holidays (would be cut if need be), or investment into repairing home or stuff (like car repairs). When times are good, more flex but still high emphasis on reducing debt pile. I don’t live like I’m going to die tomorrow.

W definition -

Purchase things which offer immediate wellbeing. In tight times purchase things on offer. She doesn’t appear to be able to see the macro amount she is spending but as long as things are on sale that’s okay. Also as long as they are not super designer that doesn’t count either. She will cut back on extra bits on leisure outings, like the ice creams. Each spend therefore is justifiable. Clothes are seen as a need.

Enabler

[formflier]

OK..  What prevents her from working more and making more money?  What is it she does again?

Now that you've done it...why do you think you gave her the money instead of expressing confidence she would sort out how to do it?

How much of the 750 does she regularly give to you or contribute to household expenses?

Best,

FF

[empath]

E, if asking you for money was so very stressful for her, she wouldn't be doing it unless she was getting something out of asking you. She has a resource that she could be using, but she is choosing to ask you for money instead. Why do you think she is doing that?

How would a person who is good with finances respond to repeated requests for funds when the person has their own financial obligations?

[Cat Familiar]

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