Need a reminder lesson

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have been on this site for a year now and have shared my story of my borderline husband's ups and downs.  Mostly downs for the last year and a half unfortunately.  Through a lot of processing with therapy for myself, I have come to the conclusion with the therapist that I had a major disassociation event this past year due to continual trauma.  There was the 'straw' the broke the camel's back that sent me into what I can only explain as a losing of my mind and acting out in complete panic.

In that time frame, I filed for divorce, shared info with grown children.  Then kinda woke up to what had happened earlier this year.  I began to process what happened.  Long story short is that it has taken me most of this year to finally come to terms with the reality of my now nearly 40 year old marriage.  

After coming clean with major infidelity 8 plus years ago, my husband feels he was humble, did all the right stuff, etc.  I am realizing I never fully dealt with the trauma of that time, thus my melt down this past year when my bpd husband would not put a filter on his computer for porn.  That along with continual emotional and verbal abuse that I am finally realizing is no longer ok with me.

Our relationship has literally been upside down this year and last year.  Most of which was due to my bpd husband retiring, which was his defining value in life.  We also moved into a patio home this past after having living on acreage away from the city for the past 14-15 years.  While these events in life can absolutely mess with a person's mindset, it does not give my bpd husband permission to deal out the confusion, frustration, abuse, paranoia, unheaval, etc, that has been a part of our relationship.

I love our new home and where we live, have made a life here and have begun to repair my life.  Meanwhile, my bpd husband is full of resentment and bitterness (he tells me he is full of bitterness and that I 'have to listen to him tell me about the harm I caused him this past year'.  

This conversation has been repeated over and over.  I have tried to be empathetic, validating but also boundary oriented.  I accept my part but do not accept his part.  This is where we are completely stuck.  He wants to continue to have this same conversation with me.  I ask him what new information is there?  Or is there some conversation toward healing?  or is he willing to own his stuff?  The answer is no on all fronts.  

He throws out a remark like 'we are not going to make it'.  He told me last night he needs his freedom?  I say go for it because 'he has all freedom in the world.'  He seems so stuck on what he says is controlling behavior on my behalf.  Which included me telling him it was not ok to move a very large amount of money in our accounts without telling me first?

Sorry, just need to vent a little this morning.  As I type this, I am realizing how much this sounds humorous and a little like dealing with a toddler.  Thankfully, I am getting better at it.  I excused myself from the conversation last night.  I walked over and said to him that I heard what he said and I can tell it is important to him.  He said 'are you leaving the conversation again?'  Yes, I said to him.  Then went in and turned on a movie.  

The sad part is I feel married to a 62 year old toddler who wants the ball all to himself but cannot figure out that no one wants to to play with him anymore.  Not what I wanted at this time in my life.  However, just writing this down reminds me to keep doing the healthy things I have already begun in my life.  And to give up false hope that marriage will be good or that my bpd husband will make good choices.

[lonely38]

I have been on this site for a year now and have shared my story of my borderline husband's ups and downs.  Mostly downs for the last year and a half unfortunately.  Through a lot of processing with therapy for myself, I have come to the conclusion with the therapist that I had a major disassociation event this past year due to continual trauma.  There was the 'straw' the broke the camel's back that sent me into what I can only explain as a losing of my mind and acting out in complete panic.

In that time frame, I filed for divorce, shared info with grown children.  Then kinda woke up to what had happened earlier this year.  I began to process what happened.  Long story short is that it has taken me most of this year to finally come to terms with the reality of my now nearly 40 year old marriage.  

After coming clean with major infidelity 8 plus years ago, my husband feels he was humble, did all the right stuff, etc.  I am realizing I never fully dealt with the trauma of that time, thus my melt down this past year when my bpd husband would not put a filter on his computer for porn.  That along with continual emotional and verbal abuse that I am finally realizing is no longer ok with me.

Our relationship has literally been upside down this year and last year.  Most of which was due to my bpd husband retiring, which was his defining value in life.  We also moved into a patio home this past after having living on acreage away from the city for the past 14-15 years.  While these events in life can absolutely mess with a person's mindset, it does not give my bpd husband permission to deal out the confusion, frustration, abuse, paranoia, unheaval, etc, that has been a part of our relationship.

I love our new home and where we live, have made a life here and have begun to repair my life.  Meanwhile, my bpd husband is full of resentment and bitterness (he tells me he is full of bitterness and that I 'have to listen to him tell me about the harm I caused him this past year'.  

This conversation has been repeated over and over.  I have tried to be empathetic, validating but also boundary oriented.  I accept my part but do not accept his part.  This is where we are completely stuck.  He wants to continue to have this same conversation with me.  I ask him what new information is there?  Or is there some conversation toward healing?  or is he willing to own his stuff?  The answer is no on all fronts.  

He throws out a remark like 'we are not going to make it'.  He told me last night he needs his freedom?  I say go for it because 'he has all freedom in the world.'  He seems so stuck on what he says is controlling behavior on my behalf.  Which included me telling him it was not ok to move a very large amount of money in our accounts without telling me first?

Sorry, just need to vent a little this morning.  As I type this, I am realizing how much this sounds humorous and a little like dealing with a toddler.  Thankfully, I am getting better at it.  I excused myself from the conversation last night.  I walked over and said to him that I heard what he said and I can tell it is important to him.  He said 'are you leaving the conversation again?'  Yes, I said to him.  Then went in and turned on a movie.  

The sad part is I feel married to a 62 year old toddler who wants the ball all to himself but cannot figure out that no one wants to to play with him anymore.  Not what I wanted at this time in my life.  However, just writing this down reminds me to keep doing the healthy things I have already begun in my life.  And to give up false hope that marriage will be good or that my bpd husband will make good choices.

[Lucky Jim]

The sad part is I feel married to a 62 year old toddler who wants the ball all to himself but cannot figure out that no one wants to to play with him anymore.  Not what I wanted at this time in my life.  However, just writing this down reminds me to keep doing the healthy things I have already begun in my life.  And to give up false hope that marriage will be good or that my bpd husband will make good choices.

Hey lonely38, Sorry to hear you've had such a rough year.  I suggest you return the focus to yourself and your needs.  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  What is the best path for you?  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

How much do you actually listen to?

Props to you for asking what new information he has.  I'm suspicious about the rest of the questions.  I doubt they are helping.

You should listen to anything new (once) and then exit the conversation when he starts to repeat. 

I think you should get a "boilerplate" answer that you stick to.

"If you want to discuss further I'll be available to discuss it on x date at y address at z time.   (the address of your therapist and the time of your appointment)

I don't believe you should tell him who else will be there.  All he needs to know is if he wants further  conversation, that's the place.

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you,

My husband says if we cannot discuss it with the two of us, then we cannot discuss it in front of a therapist or a third party.   The last time we tried this particular discussion in couples therapy, the therapist was trying very hard to speak to my husband about the fact that there was hurt on both sides.  So no going back there...sound familiar?

I agree that I am giving it too much energy and time.  My codependent self keeps hoping he is going to come up with some idea that might actually work to get better.  But no, it is the same old record player over and over and over.  In his mind, the problem is ME ME ME.

I really wish there was a way that this group could be more of a face to face group.  Writing on this site helps tremendously but face to face with people would provide some validation that many of us (I am guessing) really need!
 

I have told him I would discuss when there was new information or where there was a goal to resolve the issue.  I am guessing it will do no good at this point to even repeat this to him.  What he says to me is that he 'needs to say things to me enough until he no longer hurts.'  This also includes, in his mind, me taking full responsibility for all of the hurt and him taking none.  

This needs to be a discussion in my mind that I can no longer even begin to discuss.  Why is it that his behavior seemingly is no longer normal or what a healthy person might do?  It seems impossible to reach this person.

[formflier]

How often does this come up?

I ask because it seems you are doing lots of things that "normal" married couples do and you seem to be enjoying most of your married life (the new place you are living and all that)

So...I'm interested in when he wants to have circular conversations. 

I'm interested in what happened a couple days prior to that...maybe a couple hours before hand.

These things usually happen in predictable patterns.  Identifying the pattern GIVES YOU POWER! 

Want to examine patterns?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Sure, I am open to anything.  We did go away for a vacation here recently and then just left for the holiday weekend.  It is the coming back home that seems to trigger things.  My husband does not like where we live  so that is a pretty big part of the problem for him. 

Because we looked at homes for several years and purchased the only home that was ok with my husband, I feel it is ok to want to stay here, now that we are settled.  He does not agree with this.  At this point, I am not able to consider another move that may or may not make him 'happy'.

I also believe my husband has a festering of sorts running through his mind from this past year.  Until he processes these personally, it seems unlikely that things will change.  He is newly retired and so has a lot of time on his mind to ruminate on how bad his life is, etc.

I know my husband spends a lot of his nighttime hours either thinking about or dreaming about bad things (his past, the harm he has caused, the harm he believes I have caused, whomever and whatever else in on his mind at that time that he believes in on 'the list'. 
Most of it is not anything a person would normally be spending so much time on.  Some of it is real as my husband has committed so much deceit, immorality, etc., that I am sure it is hard to forgive himself.

And maybe because he seems me continuing to work, continuing to have a life, etc., he is more insecure with himself?  At this point, I am honestly tired of trying to figure out all of his stuff.  I have done this for most of our married life. 

[formflier]

Why not be "open" to a move?

Do you see how he may process this in the same way as him not being "open" to therapy?

I'm not saying move..I'm saying be open to the process..the discussion.

Best,

FF

[Lucky Jim]

In his mind, the problem is ME ME ME.

Hello again, lonely38, Right, a pwBPD will blame you in order to avoid taking responsibility for his/her shortcomings.  Plus, it gets the issue off of his/her plate and onto yours, which is why your task is to let irrational and unreasonable accusations roll off your back.  Don't take them on.  I have a saying: "Poison is harmless if you don't ingest it"!

LJ

[Cat Familiar]

I also believe my husband has a festering of sorts running through his mind from this past year.  Until he processes these personally, it seems unlikely that things will change.  He is newly retired and so has a lot of time on his mind to ruminate on how bad his life is, etc.

Do you think it’s likely that he will actually process these feelings? With what you’ve experienced in the past, isn’t it more likely that he will merely ruminate on them, over and over?

Can you see that waiting for him to “process” sets you up in a holding pattern?

Have you considered finding a Codpendency group in your area? If that is not available, you could also attend Alanon meetings. That would give you a wonderful opportunity to meet likeminded people who are compassionate and who can understand what you’re going through.

You’ve already taken the plunge and started to think about your own happiness as being independent of his emotional growth. What else can you do to bring joy to your life?

[formflier]

I also believe my husband has a festering of sorts running through his mind from this past year.    

I also think that "this past year" is just a convenient thing for him to latch onto.  My understanding is he has made odd/immoral choices for most of his life, which will give him lots of "subject matter" to ruminate over.

Said another way...don't "personalize" or "own" his ruminations..  Was he really mentally together (never ruminated) until you filed for divorce?

Again..don't personalize it.

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Thank you for all of the replies here.  This is hard to explain in this format.  And I do believe I need to find a codependency group.  I have looked online but done nothing about it.

I have not completely shut my husband down with regard to a move.  But I am unwilling to make the fixing of our marital stuff about another move.  If a person is unhappy and not willing to address their own stuff, the partner can keep on doing things to try to make them happy to no avail.  This is what I read about borderlines.  The partner is exhausted from trying to figure them out and from trying to help them.  I find myself exhausted when I am caught up in these things.

I wrote a word doc to my husband yesterday.  Not an email. I simply stated once again that I understand he has a need to discuss what happened last year.  That I can not participate in the same types of discussions where there is harm and hurt.  That I am open to discussion where there is healing. His response is always the same--- that until I am willing to work on my major character issues in the marriage and until I am willing to accept complete responsibility that things will not get better.  He emailed me a very long email stating that again this morning. Like the same song, the millioneth verse.The same conversation over and over and over again.

He says that what I did last year was equal to his immorality, which is honestly laughable when I think of the lying, cheating, disgusting things he did.  And he is still not owning that his own characteristics, which I have not realizing have kept me in a trauma bond, were responsible for what happened in our marriage.  I felt beat up by him emotionally and verbally last year and now all of 2019. 

This has all taken me a while to figure out but I am thankfully getting ahold of the details here and what has taken place in a sad marriage.

Today I am really feeling down and realize I need to continue to get outside help with therapy, other activities, etc.  Some times it is hard to keep going in this type of immature and disordered relationship.

Any discussion with him beyond the trivial is fruitless at this point. 

[lonely38]

I wanted to respond to the last few remarks here.  Looking back over the years, it does seem my husband was not together mentally and for sure he has always ruminated.  I know he has struggled for nearly all of our marriage with depression and with low self esteem.  He has demonstrated a lot of distancing with me. For example, he might sleep in bed for a night, then a sofa, then somewhere else in the house. 

We might seem like we are close as a couple at times and then we are not. I have felt lots of anxiety with regard to marriage over the years, wondering what was really going on and trying to somehow fix it in my mind. I almost wonder if there is more going on than even what I am thinking. It does seem to show up more in his older years, and especially with less to do to keep him occupied, or to provide a sense of value for him, etc. 

He had lots of concussions as a kid, could this be part of what is going on?  He has been very spontaneous in his life, making decisions that were hard to fathom.  Hooking up with someone he met on an airplane?  I was told he shared with someone he used cocaine at some point while traveling.  He always traveled with work so honestly, I am not sure I even have a full understanding of who he is or was at this point.

I know he is also showing paranoia with me.  He says I am controlling, that I am trying to steal money from him.  I believe this is perhaps in response to the fact that I moved half of our money, as directed by the attorney, when I filed for divorce.

Arguing about finances has never happened in our marriage.  Now he says I am controlling things.  When I emailed our financial planner to say I would like to know about money being moved here recently, I was told I was controlling.  This was after my husband moved a very large sum of money out of our personal accounts without telling me. 

It is impossible to figure him out these days.  Most of the time, I am not worrying about figuring it out, I am working on me.  But some days it really gets to me.


All of the moving parts and pieces of his life point to the fact that he does not think like a clear minded ordered person may do. 

[formflier]

It's not about not "shutting down the move"...it's about saying yes.

Let you say yes and him say no.

You provide him with a pathway to yes and let him decide. 

Perhaps that means new location, new therapy, new (fill in the blank).  You put stuff on there that matters to you (and will be healthy) and make it clear that as long as everyone is saying yes and pulling together...there is a path to a move.

You don't say "no"...but you are perplexed and say...why would I say yes and you say no?  Let him do the gymnastics..not you.

Switching gears

Why did you club him with a word doc?  What did you expect?  Did you therapist advise that you try that?  How did your relationship improve or change due to the word doc?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Just a quick reply.  I have tried saying to my husband that if we can talk in front of a therapist on this topic, I can do this with him.  I am trying to say the yes without allowing myself to be in harms way

I don't think I 'clubbed' him over the head? I did try to repeat again, (which does no good) that I cannot be in harmful, hurtful discussions with him.  And that I am open to discussions that would be healing or anything he really needs to discuss if we do it in front of a therapist.

Is that a yes?  saying I can discuss with a therapist?  Because I can do that. 

At this point, the whole discussion of where we live is really not even being discussed.  That is way down there on the list of our things we need to figure out.

[formflier]

J
I don't think I 'clubbed' him over the head? I did try to repeat again, (which does no good) that I cannot be in harmful, hurtful discussions with him.  

How many times have you said this...and how many more will it take?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

You are so right!  Thank you, I probably needed to hear that.  And out of desire to make things better, I really need to come to the reality of our what our marriage!

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296225.0
I
Radical Acceptance is a process that takes (at least for me) deliberate work.  In fact, it's bee a while since I've read this thread.  Need to do it again.

After reading this, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Best,

FF