Coparenting Advice Needed

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Background story: my wife's ex has undiagnosed BPD with histrionic leanings. They had a daughter together (whose now 6 years old) before they split (just for clarity: this was/is a gay relationship. BPD is the biological mother). We recently fought for full custody and a significantly modified parenting time plan as BPD was verbally, emotionally and at times physically abusing our daughter. We won and now BPD only sees Daughter every other weekend and for a 3 hour dinner date every other week. This new custody agreement is only a few months old. Daughter has adjusted beautifully, exceeding even our wildest expectations (thriving at school, at home, etc.). BPD has struggled. Our custody agreement details very strict communication standards which mandate that she can only call Daughter 2-3 times a week (as opposed to every day like she was after), she can only call or text us about drop off or pick up instructions (aka "I'm here, in back parking lot" etc.) or about an emergency regarding Daughter. All other communication has been diverted to email. The communication standards have been very hard on her as she had become accustomed to blowing up my wife's phone almost daily (a good month before this was maybe 7 days without contact and definitely not in a row). These standards have been helpful in that we have created quite a bit more space between us (much needed!), but have also resulted in BPD really stretching to find reasons to contact us.

Question: How are you guys handling when BPD blows medical/psychological stuff out of proportion and wants medical/psych consults for your kids? I'm essentially looking for steps you are taking to validate BPD's concerns (somewhat), while protecting your child in the process. I'd rather this not turn into a fight every time. Our new parenting agreement entitles her to consult with any medical professionals we see on her own -but the end decision is ours.

Luckily having full custody is naturally protecting Daughter from unnecessary medical treatments (before this agreement was in place BPD had 12 of Daughter's teeth capped due to finding two cavities at a routine dentist exam...), but I'm finding that BPD is leaning on old habits to try and illicit more attention/contact with us. The most recent example (which prompted me to post) is that BPD is wanting to have us reopen counseling services for Daughter so that she can attend these sessions with Daughter on a regular basis. She is claiming that Daughter is very depressed and sad when she is with her, saying that she needs more time with BPD, that she's having a hard time with this schedule transition, etc.

Not only do we have absolutely no reason to believe this is true (Daughter is happier and healthier than we've ever seen her), but my dutiful tracking has me realizing that about this time last year, BPD made the same (almost exact) claims. Daughter was spending 4 nights a week with BPD back then and by the time we got Daughter in counseling, BPD had worked her up into a frenzy. Daughter became severely impacted due to the stress, missed close to a month of school due to sickness and extreme tantrums, and started to need more and more time with us each week (eventually only spending 2-3 nights a week with BPD).

Counseling itself ended up being a disaster as well. My wife and BPD fought almost the entire first few sessions. BPD and Daughter then attended sessions together...which I now see as a huge mistake. BPD was never there to work on her parenting skills, she was there to talk about everything she felt was wrong with Daughter -with a therapist being a somewhat unwilling, but captive audience. Daughter soon dreaded these sessions and saw them as a punishment for "throwing fits" or having "tantrums." BPD lost interest in these sessions after a few months. We attended these sessions with Daughter ourselves until we won our custody case, then we closed services. I strongly suspect that BPD is merely looking for the attention and validation that counseling provided her last time.

At this point we responded to her request, letting her know that we were looking into establishing care with a different counselor. My plan is for my wife and I to meet with their lead counselor (who does the initial meetup before assigning a specific counselor), explain our situation and see what their opinion is on reopening counseling services for Daughter. My wife and I are both already leaning towards not opening services at this time, but figured a neutral consult can't hurt. We are then planning on telling BPD that after meeting with the lead counselor, we decided not to reopen services as Daughter is not displaying any troubling / challenging behavior at this time, is thriving in home / school, etc. If BPD continues to push it then we plan to refer her to the lead counselor for a consult (which we doubt she'll actually do as she rarely follows through, but it won't hurt us even if she does).

**Bonus Question: Any tips for strengthening these communication standards? Should I start responding to emails after a couple days if not emergent? (Right now I typically respond within 6 hours) How do you guys keep the amount of communication manageable? The standards I wrote are definitely helping our day to day life but the amount of communication has not decreased by much. To give you a better idea of what's happening, the number of days a month she is contacting us has actually increased -but the amount of communication each time has definitely decreased (typically limited to one or two email responses rather than 6-10 text messages in a row). Is this a win I should celebrate? Frankly it doesn't feel like it as the amount of daily contact is still quite taxing, though yes, notably less than before. Is there anything you are doing differently that I should try?

Any thoughts on this specific situation and general advice on moving forward? I anticipate this being a reoccurring issue as BPD knows from years of experience that my wife will always respond if she claims something is wrong with Daughter. This is a technique she has leaned on heavily over the years, often fabricating illnesses altogether. I do believe that the significant decrease in her parenting time with Daughter will naturally provide much relief on this issue -but I would still value any insight you might have on the matter.

Thanks!

[Quicksylver]

Background story: my wife's ex has undiagnosed BPD with histrionic leanings. They had a daughter together (whose now 6 years old) before they split (just for clarity: this was/is a gay relationship. BPD is the biological mother). We recently fought for full custody and a significantly modified parenting time plan as BPD was verbally, emotionally and at times physically abusing our daughter. We won and now BPD only sees Daughter every other weekend and for a 3 hour dinner date every other week. This new custody agreement is only a few months old. Daughter has adjusted beautifully, exceeding even our wildest expectations (thriving at school, at home, etc.). BPD has struggled. Our custody agreement details very strict communication standards which mandate that she can only call Daughter 2-3 times a week (as opposed to every day like she was after), she can only call or text us about drop off or pick up instructions (aka "I'm here, in back parking lot" etc.) or about an emergency regarding Daughter. All other communication has been diverted to email. The communication standards have been very hard on her as she had become accustomed to blowing up my wife's phone almost daily (a good month before this was maybe 7 days without contact and definitely not in a row). These standards have been helpful in that we have created quite a bit more space between us (much needed!), but have also resulted in BPD really stretching to find reasons to contact us.

Question: How are you guys handling when BPD blows medical/psychological stuff out of proportion and wants medical/psych consults for your kids? I'm essentially looking for steps you are taking to validate BPD's concerns (somewhat), while protecting your child in the process. I'd rather this not turn into a fight every time. Our new parenting agreement entitles her to consult with any medical professionals we see on her own -but the end decision is ours.

Luckily having full custody is naturally protecting Daughter from unnecessary medical treatments (before this agreement was in place BPD had 12 of Daughter's teeth capped due to finding two cavities at a routine dentist exam...), but I'm finding that BPD is leaning on old habits to try and illicit more attention/contact with us. The most recent example (which prompted me to post) is that BPD is wanting to have us reopen counseling services for Daughter so that she can attend these sessions with Daughter on a regular basis. She is claiming that Daughter is very depressed and sad when she is with her, saying that she needs more time with BPD, that she's having a hard time with this schedule transition, etc.

Not only do we have absolutely no reason to believe this is true (Daughter is happier and healthier than we've ever seen her), but my dutiful tracking has me realizing that about this time last year, BPD made the same (almost exact) claims. Daughter was spending 4 nights a week with BPD back then and by the time we got Daughter in counseling, BPD had worked her up into a frenzy. Daughter became severely impacted due to the stress, missed close to a month of school due to sickness and extreme tantrums, and started to need more and more time with us each week (eventually only spending 2-3 nights a week with BPD).

Counseling itself ended up being a disaster as well. My wife and BPD fought almost the entire first few sessions. BPD and Daughter then attended sessions together...which I now see as a huge mistake. BPD was never there to work on her parenting skills, she was there to talk about everything she felt was wrong with Daughter -with a therapist being a somewhat unwilling, but captive audience. Daughter soon dreaded these sessions and saw them as a punishment for "throwing fits" or having "tantrums." BPD lost interest in these sessions after a few months. We attended these sessions with Daughter ourselves until we won our custody case, then we closed services. I strongly suspect that BPD is merely looking for the attention and validation that counseling provided her last time.

At this point we responded to her request, letting her know that we were looking into establishing care with a different counselor. My plan is for my wife and I to meet with their lead counselor (who does the initial meetup before assigning a specific counselor), explain our situation and see what their opinion is on reopening counseling services for Daughter. My wife and I are both already leaning towards not opening services at this time, but figured a neutral consult can't hurt. We are then planning on telling BPD that after meeting with the lead counselor, we decided not to reopen services as Daughter is not displaying any troubling / challenging behavior at this time, is thriving in home / school, etc. If BPD continues to push it then we plan to refer her to the lead counselor for a consult (which we doubt she'll actually do as she rarely follows through, but it won't hurt us even if she does).

**Bonus Question: Any tips for strengthening these communication standards? Should I start responding to emails after a couple days if not emergent? (Right now I typically respond within 6 hours) How do you guys keep the amount of communication manageable? The standards I wrote are definitely helping our day to day life but the amount of communication has not decreased by much. To give you a better idea of what's happening, the number of days a month she is contacting us has actually increased -but the amount of communication each time has definitely decreased (typically limited to one or two email responses rather than 6-10 text messages in a row). Is this a win I should celebrate? Frankly it doesn't feel like it as the amount of daily contact is still quite taxing, though yes, notably less than before. Is there anything you are doing differently that I should try?

Any thoughts on this specific situation and general advice on moving forward? I anticipate this being a reoccurring issue as BPD knows from years of experience that my wife will always respond if she claims something is wrong with Daughter. This is a technique she has leaned on heavily over the years, often fabricating illnesses altogether. I do believe that the significant decrease in her parenting time with Daughter will naturally provide much relief on this issue -but I would still value any insight you might have on the matter.

Thanks!

[david]

My story started in 2007. I used to get 40 to 50 emails a month. I responded to all of them. Eventually I only replied to ones I thought I needed to reply to. The 40 to 50 continued for months with me replying to maybe 10 at the most. Eventually the emails dropped to around 15 to 20 a month. I replied to about 5. This year I received about 6 emails in total and they all were replied to since they pertained to our youngest.
I learned to not reply to repeat (recycled by ex in a slightly different style).
It took me a while to get the hang of it. I always considered me explaining my situation to a judge. 

[ForeverDad]

What would your lawyer or the child's counselor say at that prospect of ex joining sessions with daughter?  Your concern is warranted, there is risk of the ex taking over the sessions.  You got custody for a reason.  You now have custody, child is prospering, this is not about the ex, this is about the child.  Often the requests are phrased or cast in such a way as to guilt us into ignoring our misgivings.  Trust your gut.

I faced that situation a decade ago with my son.

I recall when my ex took my then-S3 to a child therapist agency and I was blocked for over a year from participating or even telling my side of the story, I decided to seek out recommended child counselors.  One told me, it's not good for a child to have two counselors.  I could see the point.  (This was in the middle of the divorce temp order where mother had temp custody.  No one let me join in any of my preschooler's sessions.)

Years later, after I had become Legal Guardian, I took him to see a counselor on the other side of town, nearly an hour away, that was recommended.  She had a nice talk with him but I don't think we had more than a few visits due to the distance.  Near the start I asked whether his mother should bring him too.  She was aghast, "Oh, no!"  As I look back, I realize I hadn't yet shed my "too fair" personality.  Too often us Nice Guys and Nice Gals don't know when to stand up for ourselves and our kids.  Sorry, but fairness in high conflict circumstances just would sabotage us.

Don't feel guilted that the ex can't have a blamefest.  The kids come first.

[worriedStepmom]

My SD12's mother is also asking for "family therapy" for the second year in a row.  It was a disaster last year, so that's not going to happen.

I would encourage you to have your SD see a therapist by herself.  Even if she is doing well now, there's probably stuff going on at her other house that will stress her out sometimes.  As she grows up, she'll also need to work on boundaries, because it is only going to get harder.  Then you can thank uBPD for letting you know there were potential issues and tell her that you are taking care of it.

My H blocked his ex from his phone (and SD's) a few months ago.  All communication must go through a parenting app (we use TalkingParents).  She can post as much as she wants, but he only has to look at it a few days a week, and we are no longer constantly getting dings that she was texting.  When you see the communication in threads, too, it really highlights some of the dysfunction.  (Plus, this app exports all the communication to a PDF that can be submitted as evidence in court.)

[livednlearned]

How are you guys handling when BPD blows medical/psychological stuff out of proportion and wants medical/psych consults for your kids? I'm essentially looking for steps you are taking to validate BPD's concerns (somewhat), while protecting your child in the process.

Bill Eddy suggests using a BIFF approach (brief, informative, firm, friendly).

"Thanks for letting us know about your concerns. I'll take it from here " is an example of a BIFF approach. If you are trying to minimize the payoff she gets from contacting you (and escalating fictitious medical or psychological issues), it might also be helpful for your wife to tell ex in advance something like "I'll be in touch if it's something that requires a response."

BPD is wanting to have us reopen counseling services for Daughter so that she can attend these sessions with Daughter on a regular basis. She is claiming that Daughter is very depressed and sad when she is with her, saying that she needs more time with BPD, that she's having a hard time with this schedule transition, etc.

Sounds like classic projection.

We are then planning on telling BPD that after meeting with the lead counselor, we decided not to reopen services as Daughter is not displaying any troubling / challenging behavior at this time, is thriving in home / school, etc.

A BIFF version of this would be, "After meeting with the lead counselor, we decided not to reopen services." You minimize the target. Otherwise, she will argue, "Yes, D6 is displaying troubling behaviors, like xyz." And you're now hooked into a back and forth.

Any tips for strengthening these communication standards

I'm guessing you are responding to the emails because your wife feels too activated and maybe struggles with boundaries?

The standards I wrote are definitely helping our day to day life but the amount of communication has not decreased by much.

BPD behaviors can be like water seeking its own level. If she feels one way is not working, she will seek another way. Where there's a will, there's a way.

If you don't want daily communication, then you have to set a boundary that's super clear and probably requires some thoughtfulness about what works best for you. Do you want to set up a special email for her that you agree to check once daily? Or whatever limit you feel is adequate. Another approach is to simply do what you think is appropriate -- check once daily and only respond if a response is necessary.

Any thoughts on this specific situation and general advice on moving forward?

Kids with BPD parents seem to re-process traumatic experiences as they go through new developmental stages. For her to have extreme tantrums, even if they're only with BPD mom, would raise some red flags ...

How does D6 do with friendships?

[Quicksylver]

david: Your response made me take a second look at the last two months. July was the first month of the new schedule / custody agreement. August was the first month of the new communication standards. July we had 195 text message exchanges and 21 emails. August we only had 40 text exchanges but 62 emails. I really appreciate your feedback as my wife and I have now decided that we will be much more selective about responses (yes we were responding to each email...I was worried that not getting a reply would result in her not respecting the new texting boundaries). I can't believe I hadn't thought to check the numbers before your post -but that 500% is why I feel so exhausted...yikes. I truly had no idea it was that high. We also decided to wait at least 2 days to reply to non emergent (all of them so far) emails. We'll see how September goes.

ForeverDad: I really appreciate your reminder that I don't need to be "fair." Honestly I struggle with this sometimes (making too many allowances for her, etc.), especially since my wife tends to overreact to BPD's ridiculous actions. The previous counselor was trying to get BPD to participate in a couple different parenting-specific therapies but BPD refused. This counselor didn't see Daughter necessarily needing more sessions with her but offered to keep services open as they had established a relationship. My wife and I did not feel that Daughter was really opening up to this counselor and we also saw that Daughter was feeling terrible about herself after these sessions with BPD so we closed services. At this point we are just planning on meeting with the new counseling service for a neutral pair of eyes on our case. I am open to having Daughter continue therapy, but I am now strongly opposed to joint sessions with BPD. We haven't consulted our lawyer about this. BPD is not legally savvy at all and all of our conversations about this topic have been in writing (where she has contradicted herself several times already). We aren't too worried about the legal ramifications, only navigating around this issue as smoothly as possible.

worriedStepMom: We have a very similar system to what TalkingParents has set up, only with gmail and Google Drive. We have created a separate email just for her which is not connected to either of our phones -so neither of us get bombarded with notifications. The communication standards have effectively reduced the phone contact (so far) but the amount of contact is just being transferred over to email. Does using TalkingParents reduce how often your BPD contacts you?

livednlearned: Love the BIFF reference. I've been trying to adhere to that technique this past month but honestly the sheer amount of contact has worn my patience down to the bone. I really appreciate your examples too -I tend to add in more detail / words than necessary. BPD has very poor reading comprehension, especially when she's raging so it's been backfiring in more ways than one.

I've been the one handling the communication (BPD doesn't know -she assumes she's been talking to my wife this whole time) for two main reasons. One being that my wife is very easily triggered where BPD is concerned -though this is getting better. And two being that I'm typically much better at redirecting BPD -mainly because she rarely triggers me (except when I'm worn down from sheer amount of contact) and I am very fact based by nature. BPD never uses actual facts in arguments, she only uses emotional attacks and pleas, which rarely find their target with me as I'm too far removed from her (and she thinks she's talking to my wife). I'm also better versed in our legal docs (parenting plan, etc.) in which I am better able to see if there is a compromise we could negotiate with BPD or if she is asking for something considered legally unreasonable (the vast majority of her demands).

As for Daughter's extreme tantrums, she hasn't had one since BPD gave away her dog while she was at school in March (frankly I think she deserved to throw one that time). Before we got this custody agreement/schedule put in place, she struggled socially. She would be extremely shy, then extremely bossy and then extremely outgoing / show offish. It was bizarre to watch. Over the year as we stabilized more and more of her routines (locking the schedule in place with a Status Quo, giving her a stable home at our place 4 nights a week, etc.) these behaviors, along with the tantrums disappeared. By the end of the year she was very popular at school and was much more outgoing socially. I'm not too worried about it right now outside of her transition into 1st grade this month. BPD only picks her up from school every other Thursday and only spends every other weekend with her at this point. So far Daughter really seems to be thriving. It's BPD whose grasping at straws (surprising no one).

[david]

It used to be said on this site years ago, "negative engagement is still engagement." That took on many levels for me as I learned to minimize my responses.
Biif is a good communication strategy.
Also, it used to be said make your responses as dull as you can by stating facts only. No ideas, thoughts, etc. Three to five sentences is all you need. It took a while for me to get good at it but it changed things dramatically for the better when I learned how to "communicate" with my ex. Don't allow any emotion to enter the conversation. You become boring and that stops the deluge. Eventually it becomes second nature and by then, my ex and I, formed a new communication method.
I would get three page or more emails telling me what was wrong with me. If there was something about a pickup time for our boys in it I would reply, "I will pick the boys up at x time" and say nothing else. My ex used to send emails where she capitalized sections. The first time I saw it I just thought she hit the cap button. After a few I looked a little closer and realized she was yelling at me. I found it amusing since it was silent yelling. Bizarro World.

[worriedStepmom]

worriedStepMom: We have a very similar system to what TalkingParents has set up, only with gmail and Google Drive. We have created a separate email just for her which is not connected to either of our phones -so neither of us get bombarded with notifications. The communication standards have effectively reduced the phone contact (so far) but the amount of contact is just being transferred over to email. Does using TalkingParents reduce how often your BPD contacts you?

We moved to the app and I took over responding (as my spouse) two months ago. mom treats the app like texting - there's a giant spew of stuff some days including a string of messages with only a few words each.  I like the app vs a dedicated email because it shows when someone has read the message.  This has at least cut down (but not eliminated) her habit of assuming we are ignoring her and posting the same message repeatedly.

I am very proactive in posting things about SD's school and medical.  Mom ignores all of that and tries to pick fights over what H thinks of her parenting, accuses us of trying to brainwash SD/steal her/insert latest conspiracy theory, or posts that SD loves her.  It's really sad and really infuriating all at once.  I try to only answer direct questions and to grey rock, but I'm still working to be fully consistent on BIFF. 

I do not think SD's mom will ever reduce the volume of posting by any measurable amount.  She is having a conversation with herself, so it doesn't really matter to her if we respond. 

[livednlearned]

You sound really grounded and are doing so many proactive things already, Quicksylver.

I've had several BPD sufferers in my life and they can be amazing teachers for self care.  

You have really good awareness about how BPD mom affects you versus your wife, and how that makes it somewhat easier to respond because you feel less emotionally activated.

She is starting to take a toll on you and you're noticing that. How far back do you think you could pull before it felt uncomfortable?

That may be the best way to gauge what's right and wrong in this case. You have to take care of yourself, especially if you're going to be on the receiving end of what you described as taxing communication. And fortunately for you, there is some legal buffer supporting you. A lot of this stuff is about us regulating our own emotions, and learning to define what it feels like to feel grounded or well when we have a BPD sufferer in our lives.

[Grady]

Quick - This is a little off topic, but how did your get your wife to allow you to take the lead and respond so she wouldn't be triggered?  I know that's where we need to be but my H can't seem to do that.  My SS is only 3 and needs counseling for everything she has put him through.  He begs to be with us full time.  H knows he needs to do this for his son, but she still maintains so much power over H.  He makes great strides, but she knows exactly what to say and do to drag him back in.  Right now she is homeless and he is the only person who will even speak to her so she has put everything on him.  Yes, she is horribly sick and needs help.  But she can't/refuses to see it.  She is convinced we have brainwashed my H and SS.  To put it in perspective, most months (before she became homeless last month) there were around 10,000 texts.  She won't take no for an answer.

Sorry to hijack...just don't see a lot of other people on here who are in the category (my significant other's ex has BPD).

[worriedStepmom]

Hi Grady.

Why don't you create a new thread with this information?  There are a few of us who are stepparents who are struggling to figure out how to intervene effectively (and other stepparents who have successfully done it!).