What to say (or not say)

[stolencrumbs]

My wife has continued with suicide threats over the past couple of weeks. They actually seem to be more frequent. It now seems to be her go-to move, whereas it used to come when things had already escalated a good bit. Now if I say 'no' to seeing her when she asks, she will subtly or not-so-subtly remind me that she is suicidal. (She's also been leaning heavy on guilt and obligation. "I believe you have integrity, and so wouldn't walk out and abandon your wife.") So I've been doing what I've almost always done. I do enough of what she wants to calm things down. That's it's own issue and obviously something I need to change.

But she is also now asking me fairly frequently to talk with her and "help her understand" what I'm working on and what the barriers are to us being back together. I don't know if this is a conversation I should have with her right now or not. I can't imagine it going well, but the status quo isn't going so well either.

Some thoughts:
(1) I feel pretty sure that "brutal" honesty is a bad idea. That feels like throwing gas on the fire, and would definitely lead to suicide threats.

(2) I'm not sure what less brutal but still honest would look like, or how much I should share, or what, if any, obligation I have to share with her everything I think and feel about us.

(3) In the big picture, I don't want to be with her because I don't think my life is better in this marriage. I *could* do it, especially if she works on herself. But even the best version of our life is not one that I think makes my life better. That is not something I ever really considered before, or it's something I was not honest with myself about. There's some universe in which our marriage could be okay, and my life could be okay with her. I lived with okay for a long time before it got really bad. I don't want okay anymore, and I definitely don't want really bad. I have no idea how to tell her that in some way that doesn't, to use her words, "destroy" her.

(4) What I'm "working on" is trying to have space from her to figure out what it means and what it looks like for me to live my own life--what it looks like to think about and do things that I want because I want to without first running everything through the filter of how my every move might affect her. I have told her this before in various ways, and her response is that it will be different now. But I don't think she gets that it has never been different. It's not just the last few really bad years that have been like this. That dynamic is at the foundation of our relationship. I don't think it's going to change. I don't think *I* am able to make that change within the relationship.

(5) Another thing I'm "working on" is understanding and coming to terms with the emotional (and sometimes physical) abuse of the past four years. I have also told her this before, to which she apologizes and then essentially tells me to get over it and not dwell on the past. She also throws in some "we both did things that were hurtful" and other forms of what seem to me to be minimizing what all happened. I don't want to dwell on the past, and I don't feel a lot of anger about it. But it all happened, and it all affected me. And I can probably get past it all, but that doesn't mean I want to be married to the person who did it. A soldier might get past the trauma of war, but that doesn't mean he wants to go back and live in Afghanistan once it's no longer a war zone. Or that's how I imagine I would feel. Kabul might be great, but I'm not gonna go live there.

I don't know how to talk about any of this. It would be a hard conversation in a "normal" relationship. But throw in frequent suicide threats and it gets much harder. Pretty much every thought I have gets run through that calculation. I could insist that we talk about this with a T, but that's not an option she is going to go for. And even if she did, we have no history of those discussions going well in T. And we have no history of whatever conversation is started in T staying in T. The conversation always continues. I can't really imagine a scenario that doesn't end in suicide threats, and I still don't feel good about any of my options when that happens. At best it seems like I buy a week of her in the psychiatric hospital.

Anyway, any thoughts on whether to attempt to have some conversation with her about any of this, and if I do, how to go about that? What to say, how much to say, what not to say?




 

[formflier]

 

I would say boundaries on when/where you have these conversations are important.  Perhaps just as important to toss the suicidal issue back in her lap.

"Since you are using suicidal threats, I think it best to only discuss this with your therapist present."

(please don't actually say these words until this has been talked through with several other people on these boards.  My example is so you get the gist of what I think we need to communicate.)

I also think that many more barriers to communication need to be erected.  It appears she has too much access to you and is using that access to manipulate.

What is you stopped by for 30 minutes, did a couple things, wished her well and let her know you would be back in touch tomorrow at a certain time?  Then take that space to care for yourself and get a breather.

It's remarkable how heavy a load you have carried for so long.  You realize she is not going to let you "put it down", yet you also realize you can't keep carrying this.  (Have I accurately reflected back your thinking?)
 

To take your Afghanistan analogy a step further.  Those  soldiers would likely continue to do "kind things" and "care about" Afghanistan from a distance. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve probably discussed this with your therapist. Should you proceed with a divorce, at some point you’ll have to address the fact that you want out.

You’ve come to see how these threats are manipulative, which certainly doesn’t preclude her possibly following through, and also how she has little to no understanding how her behavior has made your life so hellish.

In some ways you are stringing her along with hope that you might get back together by not telling her the truth. She has amped up the threats because that’s the only tool she has.

This is definitely not a conversation to be had without mental health professionals in attendance. I’m thinking that the longer you let this go on, the worse it’s going to get. I may be wrong, but she seems unlikely to let it go and as you’ve seen recently, her behavior is getting worse.

  

So sorry you’re having to deal with such a difficult situation.

Cat

[stolencrumbs]

It's remarkable how heavy a load you have carried for so long.  You realize she is not going to let you "put it down", yet you also realize you can't keep carrying this.  (Have I accurately reflected back your thinking?)

Yes, I think that's pretty accurate. I might quibble with "can't keep carrying this." I probably can. I don't want to.

On the one hand, I get the idea behind having this conversation with her T present. On the other, I can't really imagine what that helps. I very much doubt she will talk about suicide with her T there. She will downplay it. Or say whatever she needs to say for the hour we're with her T. Then we'll leave, and then what? I also strongly suspect that her way of dealing with me insisting on that will be to just stop talking about killing herself. She won't stop thinking about it. She'll just stop telling me that she is. At this point, I don't believe she is at all interested in working on not having those thoughts.

And Cat, I agree. I definitely feel like I'm doing some stringing along. I hate that. And I also think it's going to get worse. It feels like the choice I have is about how quickly it gets worse, and what I'm going to do when it does.

[formflier]

On the one hand, I get the idea behind having this conversation with her T present. On the other, I can't really imagine what that helps. I very much doubt she will talk about suicide with her T there. She will downplay it. Or say whatever she needs to say for the hour we're with her T. Then we'll leave, and then what?


I also strongly suspect that her way of dealing with me insisting on that will be to just stop talking about killing herself. She won't stop thinking about it. She'll just stop telling me that she is. At this point, I don't believe she is at all interested in working on not having those thoughts.
 

That's the point of talking ONLY in front of her T. 

She may not talk about it..but you will.  Then...for the week or 2 or whatever until the next appointment, you don't engage at all on any SI..relationship talk or any of that...until the next appointment  where you will have your list of all the times you walked away from conversations that were only to be had in therapy.

Switching gears..

"Should" you be carrying someone else's burden for as long as you have and as long as she wants you to?  You are likely right that you "could" keep doing this, although I don't think you "see" the cliff you are heading towards.

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

When suicidal threats become a response to the other person not doing what is expected this is a form of coercive control.

I cannot remember if you have a therapist, but if you do speak to them about a careplan for what to say/not say or do when your wife uses her suicide attempt to try and control you.

You can also contact her T and tell them what is happening and also ask how best to manage this type of behaviour.
A plan can be put in place even if your wife chooses not to participate.
You can make your wife aware that you are going to talk to her T because her suicidal threats are causing you to feel concerned about her safety.

Also being transparent about your contacting her T takes some of the control and power out of your wife's behaviour because it is no longer between just you two.

[stolencrumbs]

I saw my T on Tuesday. I can't she is particularly helpful with this. I don't really blame her for that. It just always comes down to me not giving in to the threats, and that involves me being comfortable with doing whatever I'm going to do instead of giving in, and I'm not comfortable with any of the alternatives.

I have talked with her T once a few weeks ago. It was not particularly helpful. She listened. I have no idea if she discussed it with my wife. My T did ask permission to share more specifics with her T, and is going to suggest that me, my wife, and her T meet together to talk about it. I don't know if that will happen.

It all definitely feels coercive, whether that is her intent or not. And I'm still resolved to not go back, and especially not under threat, but gosh it sure seems like it would be easier sometimes. I know in the bigger picture it would reinforce all the wrong things, and it isn't what I want, but it often seems like the easiest way to get a break.   

I'm going to visit my family this weekend. I think that will be really nice, though my wife has already told me she isn't sure how she'll survive the weekend. I'm going to do my best to not worry about it all weekend long, and being five hours away will mean my options are limited if she does threaten suicide while I'm gone.

[Cat Familiar]

I totally agree with sweetheart that it’s important to no longer keep your wife’s secrets. As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

She has manipulated you for years and relied on your discretion. Keeping this secret between the two of you has not resolved anything.

[sweetheart]

Have you read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist in Your Life.'?

It really helped me come to terms with letting go, I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it really helped me shift the terrible responsibility I felt in having to look after my h emotionally.

Pushing for the 3 way meet with your wife's T for me is a must. This is the place, should you so choose, to have that difficult conversation with your wife about divorce, about feeling compromised emotionally by her constant references to suicide, about wanting to make sure she has support in place apart from you, it can also provide a safe space for you to give back responsibility to your wife for her own life.

Therapy isn't always about working things out, it can also be the place where it is possible to say clearly the things that need saying in a relationship. A good T can then check that your wife has heard and understood what has been said and put a Safety plan in place for her that includes what to do if she is feeling suicidal.

[stolencrumbs]

Have you read 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist in Your Life.'?

It really helped me come to terms with letting go, I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it really helped me shift the terrible responsibility I felt in having to look after my h emotionally.

Pushing for the 3 way meet with your wife's T for me is a must. This is the place, should you so choose, to have that difficult conversation with your wife about divorce, about feeling compromised emotionally by her constant references to suicide, about wanting to make sure she has support in place apart from you, it can also provide a safe space for you to give back responsibility to your wife for her own life.

Therapy isn't always about working things out, it can also be the place where it is possible to say clearly the things that need saying in a relationship. A good T can then check that your wife has heard and understood what has been said and put a Safety plan in place for her that includes what to do if she is feeling suicidal.

Yes. That is by far the book that has helped me the most over the past few years, though I haven't looked at it in a couple of months. I should do that.

I'm not sure that my wife's T is a good T. I'm up for giving that a go, though.

[formflier]

My T did ask permission to share more specifics with her T, and is going to suggest that me, my wife, and her T meet together to talk about it. I don't know if that will happen.
 

I love this idea.  I would push for it if I was you.

We can help you with things you want to say explicitly during this meeting.

1.  No more secrets
2.  You will back away from SI and let professionals do their thing
3.  What exactly do the Ts think you should say to disengage at the first "hint" of SI.  (done consistently so your wife gets no "payout".
4.  Subjects you will only discuss with your wife with a therapist present and why.

Best,

FF