Is this borderline?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am seeing so many behaviors in my husband that seem like borderline behaviors.  When I look back over our marriage, I can also see a lot of unusual stuff with him.  He has never been diagnosed although one therapist told him he had borderline tendencies.

So the last year has been pure hell with him.  From a move into town. to him retiring, to him literally taking me over the edge to nearly losing my mind with his verbal and emotional abuse.  I am finally understanding that I had a major disassociation and a straw that broke the camel's back that sent me into total panic mode.  I ended up filing for divorce last fall in a panic.

My husband sent me one email during that time that seemed hopeful, and, so we decided to get back together.  We did ok for a couple of months, then his bitterness over what happened, how he perceived I ruined him with the divorce papers and the information our children knew.  He has been extremely difficult to live with him and we really have had very little communication the last few months.

Strangely enough we took a trip together with a group and he seemed to relax and enjoy himself.  Then as soon as we walked back in the door home, he went back to his old self.

His big sticking point this last year was that he felt I was responsible for everything and he was perhaps only responsible for being 'difficult' to live with.  In his words, this did not justify my actions of divorce and sharing with family and friends about the divorce.

I wrote him a note this past week saying I was sorry for the hurt he has felt from me and hoped he can forgive at some point.  I just felt that was something I needed to put in a hand written note although I have said this to him verbally and in a written note in front of a therapist.  His memory says I never apologized for anything.

Of course, there has never been an apology for him.  Last night after the hand written note, he is texting me thank you for the note and more blah blah blah of why he didn't understand that I never apologized.  And also something along the lines of even if I did not feel fully responsible, I could have apologized.  I responded that my memory said I had shared with him an apology in the past.  Then I texted back that I am glad we are through discussing this looming giant of an issue that has never gone away this past year.

We could never fully discuss what happened in the last year because it always got nasty and I am no longer able to do demeaning nasty conversations with him.  This has driven him off the wall with frustration toward me.  He says I am controlling, contentious, prideful, etc.  The therapist says he calls me these things because that is what he sees in himself. 

Anyway, he finally emailed me this past week saying we would no longer discuss this topic but that he was so hurt by me that we would continue to live separately but in the same house.  I told him verbally the next day I was ok with this.  I am honestly so exhausted by his immaturity and unwillingness to deal with reality that I have very little interest in working on things between us.

I could share a lot more hurtful things he has done recently but my point is I am ok living a separate life with him in the house.  If he wants to work on getting better or behaving better I am open to that.

Last night his text back to me was so are we going to live separately?  I responded yes, isn't that what you wrote to me in an email this week?  And that I thought it would be good for us to just try and calm down and perhaps try a little kindness with each other.

Then he comes to the kitchen while I am making dinner and kinda just hangs around there.  I had told him his dinner was ready.  I went outside to eat.  He said something like he didn't get the idea I was inviting him out to eat with me.  I didn't bite on his remark but told him he was welcome to do whatever he would like to do.  Such little kid behavior. 

I went into our bathroom to shower and get ready for bed.  When I walk out of the room, he has evidently gone somewhere as he is pulling back into the garage.  He comes in with a major limp and with all kinds of drama pulls him upstairs to the TV room.  He tells me he tore another tendon in his foot but will not share anything. He will not tell me what happened.  When I offered to help him, he would not respond, etc.  So I just turned the TV off and went to bed.  His stuff is almost comical to watch if not incredibly sad.  It's like he a little boy trapped in a 62 year old body.

I am guessing when I agreed with him on the living in the same house separately, he felt abandonment.  I can longer fix him, help him, ruminate over him, etc. 

I really see some kind of mental instability in this man and have for most of our married life.  Seemingly, it is getting more prevalent in his older years.  Sad for him, and certainly exhausting for me.

[lonely38]

I am seeing so many behaviors in my husband that seem like borderline behaviors.  When I look back over our marriage, I can also see a lot of unusual stuff with him.  He has never been diagnosed although one therapist told him he had borderline tendencies.

So the last year has been pure hell with him.  From a move into town. to him retiring, to him literally taking me over the edge to nearly losing my mind with his verbal and emotional abuse.  I am finally understanding that I had a major disassociation and a straw that broke the camel's back that sent me into total panic mode.  I ended up filing for divorce last fall in a panic.

My husband sent me one email during that time that seemed hopeful, and, so we decided to get back together.  We did ok for a couple of months, then his bitterness over what happened, how he perceived I ruined him with the divorce papers and the information our children knew.  He has been extremely difficult to live with him and we really have had very little communication the last few months.

Strangely enough we took a trip together with a group and he seemed to relax and enjoy himself.  Then as soon as we walked back in the door home, he went back to his old self.

His big sticking point this last year was that he felt I was responsible for everything and he was perhaps only responsible for being 'difficult' to live with.  In his words, this did not justify my actions of divorce and sharing with family and friends about the divorce.

I wrote him a note this past week saying I was sorry for the hurt he has felt from me and hoped he can forgive at some point.  I just felt that was something I needed to put in a hand written note although I have said this to him verbally and in a written note in front of a therapist.  His memory says I never apologized for anything.

Of course, there has never been an apology for him.  Last night after the hand written note, he is texting me thank you for the note and more blah blah blah of why he didn't understand that I never apologized.  And also something along the lines of even if I did not feel fully responsible, I could have apologized.  I responded that my memory said I had shared with him an apology in the past.  Then I texted back that I am glad we are through discussing this looming giant of an issue that has never gone away this past year.

We could never fully discuss what happened in the last year because it always got nasty and I am no longer able to do demeaning nasty conversations with him.  This has driven him off the wall with frustration toward me.  He says I am controlling, contentious, prideful, etc.  The therapist says he calls me these things because that is what he sees in himself. 

Anyway, he finally emailed me this past week saying we would no longer discuss this topic but that he was so hurt by me that we would continue to live separately but in the same house.  I told him verbally the next day I was ok with this.  I am honestly so exhausted by his immaturity and unwillingness to deal with reality that I have very little interest in working on things between us.

I could share a lot more hurtful things he has done recently but my point is I am ok living a separate life with him in the house.  If he wants to work on getting better or behaving better I am open to that.

Last night his text back to me was so are we going to live separately?  I responded yes, isn't that what you wrote to me in an email this week?  And that I thought it would be good for us to just try and calm down and perhaps try a little kindness with each other.

Then he comes to the kitchen while I am making dinner and kinda just hangs around there.  I had told him his dinner was ready.  I went outside to eat.  He said something like he didn't get the idea I was inviting him out to eat with me.  I didn't bite on his remark but told him he was welcome to do whatever he would like to do.  Such little kid behavior. 

I went into our bathroom to shower and get ready for bed.  When I walk out of the room, he has evidently gone somewhere as he is pulling back into the garage.  He comes in with a major limp and with all kinds of drama pulls him upstairs to the TV room.  He tells me he tore another tendon in his foot but will not share anything. He will not tell me what happened.  When I offered to help him, he would not respond, etc.  So I just turned the TV off and went to bed.  His stuff is almost comical to watch if not incredibly sad.  It's like he a little boy trapped in a 62 year old body.

I am guessing when I agreed with him on the living in the same house separately, he felt abandonment.  I can longer fix him, help him, ruminate over him, etc. 

I really see some kind of mental instability in this man and have for most of our married life.  Seemingly, it is getting more prevalent in his older years.  Sad for him, and certainly exhausting for me.

[Cat Familiar]

What can you do so that you no longer feel exhausted by the drama he brings?

[lonely38]

Last night, I got in bed and read a book instead of watching his crazy.  I am getting more involved in other activities and am gone more.  Which is really what I need to do considering the fact that he is retired and at home a lot these days.

[Ozzie101]

That's good, lonely. Taking care of yourself is key to dealing with situations like this. It's something I'm learning to do, slowly but surely.

How does he usually react to your being gone more often or doing things like reading in bed?

[lonely38]

He is doing a lot of the silent treatment these days which he has for most of our marriage.  It was weird last night but I just kinda thought his behavior was comical.  I am sure he did something to his foot that hurt, but unless he had just cut it off, he was over reacting. 
No matter what I do or where I go,  he is much more focused on himself.

So I do what I want when I want.  I am over the waiting for him to decide to be a grown up.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you’re in the phase of “seeing things clearly” which also can be a time of grieving the relationship you thought was possible.

The good news is that by entering this phase, you won’t be “making things worse” by your responses.

You definitely will be responding differently to him and he will notice that, and probably react badly at times. But if you stay in mindfulness, you won’t compound the issues and his upset will be self-limiting without having a co-participant.

[lonely38]

Thank you, I appreciate this.  And yes, I am grieving really what I never had.  We went out for a short bit last night and it was evident he was in a 'mood'.  I would not engage which drives him crazy.  When he would not stop, I told him I was going to the car and would wait for him to finish paying the bill.

I texted him last night that we can be friends and live in the same house.  But that is it, and also told him I understand from all of his communications during the last year and a half... that he really feels ill toward me.  I told him I accept that. But we are no longer a married couple, except in name only. If we are going to do that, there needs to be a way the home to feel like a safe place for both of us and I told him that too.  I got his text back at 3:30 am saying we could talk later today.

It is sad and such a waste but he just cannot get himself back to a better place and shows no desire to do so.  Until he does, I have no other choice but to move forward with my own life.

I am guessing there will not be a good chance of the friends in the same house thing working out but am willing to give it a chance. 

[formflier]

Lonely38

You asked if this is "borderline".  I ask you how that would matter?  It's certainly "borderlineish" behavior.

More specifically I saw a ton of push pull in your very clear story (good job laying it out there  )

FF homework

Read your first post.  Where did you invalidate him?  More specifically "his version".  Also could be called "arguing" about reality.

A tough thing is to let them have their reality...  My guess is when YOU stop arguing about it...they will stop bring it up.  Hmm...

Next...he is push pulling and you are playing along and doing a pretty good job.  He "pushed" you away with the live in house as friends thing and you pretty much agreed.  That's not a bad response.

I think a better or best response would be a little less push than he gives and when he "pulls", you can pull to, just not a much.

So perhaps "Sadly that seems to be the plan" or "Space would be nice."

When he comes into the kitchen to hang around.  Acknowledge him and then in offhand way engage him.   Oh...can you hand me this.  Here..taste this, what do you think?  Hey, did you see this new thing I got at the grocery.  Oh..I'm behind can you cut the onions.  (actually have the cutting board, onion on it and knife right there..maybe slide it towards him) 

Even better if there is part of the meal you know he loves.  Have him help in that part.  If he rejects..leave that part out of the meal.   

Big picture:  Stop debating the past and his crazy ideas.  Live the life you can, let him experience his consequences...but don't point that out to him.

Most important thing in this post.  Go find where you invalidated him.  Stop that.  Nothing good down that road.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Have you seen this video Validation and Invalidation ?

It's easy to be invalidating, even when we don't mean to. This video really clarified how sometimes my husband would respond in an odd way to something I had said or done, which I thought was completely innocuous.

He, however, thought there was a hidden message of blaming or shaming. I had no clue.

Anyway, it was really eye-opening to see how something unimportant to me was interpreted as a dig, slight, poke, putdown.

[lonely38]

Form Flier,

I went back and read the first post.  I think perhaps you are referring to the statement when I replied back to his text about my memory tells me something different about the apologies.  Is this correct?  I do see your point.  perhaps in the long run it does not matter because he is going to see things how he is going to see things.  I did also add in the text that the last year has been emotionally draining and I am exhausted by the bitterness.  I really needed to make a statement about how I have been impacted.  Not sure if that was ok, but it seems to me, it is ok to let him know I have needs.

So last night he came home.  We actually cooked dinner together, which is our norm.  We had a bite to eat out on our patio together and had some small talk.  Then went our separate ways in the house. 

It feels very good for me to have taken somewhat of a stand.  My goal in all of this is to find my safe place again and to get healthy for me.  No more trying to figure out his stuff, which evidently I still do, by the title of this post!

The biggest issue I struggle with still is my thought process.  Because of the severe anxiety I have dealt with in this type of atmosphere, it is taking me a while to get my nervous system back to normal.  Very thankful I have a good trauma therapist.

[lonely38]

Thank you Cat Flier, I will watch the video again.  The tools on this site are extremely helpful.  Thank you.

[formflier]

  I responded that my memory said I had shared with him an apology in the past.  

Exactly!  Solid work on your homework!

Think about this for a minute.  You have said that he reminds you of a child trapped in a man's body.  Very accurate description and the more you can "stay there" with that point of view, I think it will be enormously helpful to you.

How do "yes I did...no I didn't" arguments turn out with 8 year olds (emotional 8 year olds at that)?

Now do you get my point?
 
For now I would recommend leaving those arguments alone.  For the future we need to practice making it obvious you are listening and validating and then let him chose to challenge his reality or not.

"Would you like to understand my point of view?"  (in a curious tone)

Then in puzzled tones let them lead troubleshooting.  If they sound ridiculous...don't point it out..stay puzzled.

Switching gears.  I'm fascinated that you can cook together and it apparently goes well.  Can you tell me about what you talk about?  I assume you are both moving about the kitchen..right?

How do things change when you sit down to dinner?  Describe the table setting and if you sit next to each other or face each other, or perhaps at 90 degree angle from each other.

I'm chewing on a theory that will help you communicate better.

Best,

FF

[ProblemAddict]

Hi lonely

Yes this is BPD but perhaps not enough traits to get the doctors stamop. The criteria says arbbitrarily that the patient must reach 5 out of 9 possible traits, but your husband is not suicidal, and seems to be able to hold himself together for a while

The reason why he keeps insisting that you did not excuse yourself for filing a divorce is becalse his mind manufactures yhe conclusion based on emotions. It should be the other way around, emotions coming out of a conclusion. He feels threatened by that possibility and hearing you excusing yourself makes he feel safer.

And by the way I dont think you should ever excuse yourself for doing something you have the right to do at any time. At most just excuse yourself for making him feel lonely or sad, or not giving it a 2nd thought.

Being lonely around him will keep the cycle. Dont expect him to just grow up. He cant. How about trying DBT or family schema therapy?

[lonely38]

Form flier,

So these days, we do not see each other too much and kinda just stay out of the way of each other.  If we are both home at night, we tend to eat together.  Sometimes he might actually have a sentence or two of discussion type of thoughts.  For the most part, conversation is pretty short between us.  As far as how do we sit at meals, sometimes it is in 2 patio chairs with a small table between us.  Sometimes a couple of small sofas on patio with a table between us and then when it is cold at kitchen table, across from each other.

I am, unfortunately, pretty limited on what might be considered a safe topic with him.  I find that I am figuring out a couple of communication techniques that do work.  But, you are correct, if I disagree over even a minor item, it goes nowhere and sometimes gets testy. 

I have found ways to ask him to do things for me around the house and he always does them.  Weird?  Last night, I got brave and told him I had a 'big ask'.  Because he is only 62 1/2 and we are to have to pay for our own medical insurance, I asked if he would consider getting a job to pay for that.  He wanted to know why I was asking.  I said it would be helpful financially for him to help out with insurance as we are a long ways from getting medicare.  I also mentioned to him that it might be good for him to have a purpose.  That may have been a bad idea with a bpd but I do find that sometimes if I ask in the right way, he will consider.


Again, the strangest part of all of this is that our move a year and a half ago, along with his retirement, seemed to have turned his bpd 'on' to pretty much full time with me.  I am to blame for 'all of whatever it is that is on his mind'.

Why is it that he is demonstrating so many more characteristics of bpd in these years?  When I look back on our lives together, I definitely see him acting out in borderline types of behaviors but this is different.  He definitely fits the category of a high functioning borderline.  He is a master at holding himself together in front of others.  Once in a while, our children get a look at his stuff but he does not see them every day like he does me.  I really thought this time of life might be so much better.  Instead it feels somewhat like I am living with a caged animal.  The caged animal might be napping, but he is also always ready to attack if he feels the slightest provoke or wrong.