Changing my reactions

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Past few weeks have been a major rollercoaster. I’ve been trying to catch up with school, which is a full time escapade and simultaneously trying to fulfill ubpdh’s never ending requests regarding the new house, get quotes from contractors to complete work on it, take care of the house and the kids. Overwhelmed and always short on time comes to mind. He is constantly snappy, bitter, super critical and condescending. He’s been snapping at everyone, including my children, parents and me. Just like some of you here predicted, the house didn’t bring a sense of completion or satisfaction with it. It brought more responsibility, maintenance, financial hardship and work. He doesn’t do work well. Every thing he had done, partially on his own brought a cascade of chastising, cussing and anger. I have been walking out consistently, to maintain boundaries. He has been leaving marital bed twice this week to “punish” me.
One of the things he demanded was to “bless the new house and the car” by the priest of his faith. Whenever he goes into his “saint” mode, I know now, and can explain, he creates the trigulation. He is the victim, his lord is the rescuer and I am the punisher. Great combination, one I can surely not do anything about. I did as he asked; called the priest and blessed the home. Because the church here doesn’t have enough resources and always requires donations, he insisted on me giving a hefty sum. (Never mind that the Holy Father was driving Mercedes, nice, ubpdh paid for his monthly lease). Last night after successfully provoking my mother on to the fight, then picking on me, and I walked away, he “punished me” by sleeping on the couch downstairs. Early in the morning he dressed to the nines, like going to the club, when I asked him where he was going, he said “church, good bye”.
How do I avoid this drama triangle with him, his God and me? How do I not allow my children be involved in this? I don’t want them to get a screwed understanding of the religion. Faith isn’t about righteous or sinners. It’s about hope. My ubpdh always used religion as a weapon. Him against me. I’m so fed up.

[snowglobe]

Past few weeks have been a major rollercoaster. I’ve been trying to catch up with school, which is a full time escapade and simultaneously trying to fulfill ubpdh’s never ending requests regarding the new house, get quotes from contractors to complete work on it, take care of the house and the kids. Overwhelmed and always short on time comes to mind. He is constantly snappy, bitter, super critical and condescending. He’s been snapping at everyone, including my children, parents and me. Just like some of you here predicted, the house didn’t bring a sense of completion or satisfaction with it. It brought more responsibility, maintenance, financial hardship and work. He doesn’t do work well. Every thing he had done, partially on his own brought a cascade of chastising, cussing and anger. I have been walking out consistently, to maintain boundaries. He has been leaving marital bed twice this week to “punish” me.
One of the things he demanded was to “bless the new house and the car” by the priest of his faith. Whenever he goes into his “saint” mode, I know now, and can explain, he creates the trigulation. He is the victim, his lord is the rescuer and I am the punisher. Great combination, one I can surely not do anything about. I did as he asked; called the priest and blessed the home. Because the church here doesn’t have enough resources and always requires donations, he insisted on me giving a hefty sum. (Never mind that the Holy Father was driving Mercedes, nice, ubpdh paid for his monthly lease). Last night after successfully provoking my mother on to the fight, then picking on me, and I walked away, he “punished me” by sleeping on the couch downstairs. Early in the morning he dressed to the nines, like going to the club, when I asked him where he was going, he said “church, good bye”.
How do I avoid this drama triangle with him, his God and me? How do I not allow my children be involved in this? I don’t want them to get a screwed understanding of the religion. Faith isn’t about righteous or sinners. It’s about hope. My ubpdh always used religion as a weapon. Him against me. I’m so fed up.

[Notwendy]

How to avoid the God triangle? Or one with others in your family?


Don't make any of this about you. If he wants to bless the house- fine. Why did he give you the money or have you contact the priest? If he wants to bless the house- he can make the arrangements and pay the priest himself.

He may not like this, but he's an adult. He can take care of his own religion. He can have his own relationship with his choice of way to relate to God. You don't need to be responsible for this. It's between him and his religion. If he tried to involve you doing something for him like this, simply say " I understand this is what you want and I think it is best if you make the arrangements".

If he wants to involve the kids- this is also his choice as a parent. The two of you are from different faith traditions, but you two don't have an agreement to raise the kids in one faith. He has the right to share his beliefs with them. You may not agree with this, but unless he's abusive with his religion, then you can't intervene and it's also hard to prove that it's abusive in court unless he causes proof of harm. Righteousness and sin are aspects of some religions and is not illegal.

If he wants to go to church, then that's his right. You don't have to go with him, but don't make this about you. It's him and his church.

He may think he is sleeping on the couch to "punish you" or you may think that, but it isn't necessarily punishment. He can sleep where he  wants, so can you. Sometimes I'm in another bedroom if I can't sleep well, or snoring is loud, or any number of reasons. Don't make a big deal out of it. Enjoy a night's sleep with the bed to yourself.

If you don't assume the drama is about you, then you won't make yourself part of it.

[snowglobe]

How to avoid the God triangle? Or one with others in your family?


Don't make any of this about you. If he wants to bless the house- fine. Why did he give you the money or have you contact the priest? If he wants to bless the house- he can make the arrangements and pay the priest himself.

He may not like this, but he's an adult. He can take care of his own religion. He can have his own relationship with his choice of way to relate to God. You don't need to be responsible for this. It's between him and his religion. If he tried to involve you doing something for him like this, simply say " I understand this is what you want and I think it is best if you make the arrangements".

If he wants to involve the kids- this is also his choice as a parent. The two of you are from different faith traditions, but you two don't have an agreement to raise the kids in one faith. He has the right to share his beliefs with them. You may not agree with this, but unless he's abusive with his religion, then you can't intervene and it's also hard to prove that it's abusive in court unless he causes proof of harm. Righteousness and sin are aspects of some religions and is not illegal.

If he wants to go to church, then that's his right. You don't have to go with him, but don't make this about you. It's him and his church.

He may think he is sleeping on the couch to "punish you" or you may think that, but it isn't necessarily punishment. He can sleep where he  wants, so can you. Sometimes I'm in another bedroom if I can't sleep well, or snoring is loud, or any number of reasons. Don't make a big deal out of it. Enjoy a night's sleep with the bed to yourself.

If you don't assume the drama is about you, then you won't make yourself part of it.

Thank you Wendy,
I am thinking of the words you wrote. How much of his fog I have internalized over the years? I don’t know what “normal” is, but his abnormal seemed familiar to me. How much is it about me and how much is it about his anguish and turmoil. I crave having a conversation that doesn’t focus on him, that we can both jointly decide on things. I want to feel home in my house, I want to feel loved. I don’t.
The faith issue is one of the things that trigger me most. Being young and naive girl, I thought that it doesn’t matter. Tonight is a sacred holiday for my faith and ethnicity, I’m sitting and trying to study. This is the day out of all the days in a year that he went to church... unfortunately, I also know from him, that the church was his stomping ground for picking up the girls. Broken, needy and financially disadvantaged women looking for salvation in a new country. Him being the night in shining armour, him, being the rescuer, immigration being the persecutor and the girls being the victims. How fitting... he also goes to confession to rinse himself of the sin, then coming home, he assumes the role of “g-d’s warrior” fighting his righteous conquest of converting by force. Wendy, although I come from a different background,  I would not be opposed to raising kids in CHristian faith, if He was not using it as a weapon. I can’t allow this fanatic take on religion enforced on the children.
I’ll try to stay away and allow him to figure it out.
Additionally his faith was something he always did with his parents and sibling. I think he misses them and it’s his way of reconnecting.

[babyducks]

Shana Tova U'metuka

Have you ever wondered snowglobe,  if you desperately attempt to fix and care for your husband as a round about substitute way to care for and heal yourself?

Not everything he does is directed at you.    Actually very little of it is.

A lot of what you blame on him, really appears to be you avoiding your own feelings and pain.

Whatdo you think?

Are you unhappy on erev Rosh HaShannah because he went to church or because you don't have a spiritual connection today?

[Notwendy]

Happy New Year, Snowglobe.

Interfaith marriages can have issues. That said, I have seen happy marriages between people of two faiths and also different races, and unhappy marriages between people of the same faith and race. I think it comes down to boundaries and the level of enmeshment. I think couples with poor boundaries and enmeshment are not able to tolerate the fact that each of them is a separate individual with their own minds and opinions and that whenever one of them demonstrates that, the other gets triggered.

I think it's also a function of how well couples can communicate and work out disagreements and differences. Emotionally mature and differentiated couples can do this, dysfunctional couples have difficulty.

Sex, money, religion tend to be areas of difference for marriage. Even people with the same religion can have differences about how they practice and what they want for their homes and kids.

Basically, religion is one of the differences between the two of you and how you two have worked out your differences demonstrates how you do that. Naturally, religion is a point of contention and hurt- but so are finances and other situations.

The steps you can take to help this are the same for other issues- work on your own boundaries and being less enmeshed. What is you ,and what isn't you? Your religion is you, his is his- don't make that your business. What he eats or wears is his- that is not your business. Because of the poor boundaries - you assume his behavior has something to do with you, but that's an assumption. Rosh Hashana is this evening. It's also Sunday and that's the day people go to church. This is why he may have done this, not because it's the beginning of a Jewish holiday.

His motivations for going to church are his. Is it to pick up women or to pray or maybe something else? These aren't your motivations - they are his. All you can do is decide what you will do about it. If he picks up women and cheats- you can't control this. All you can do is decide what you would do about it.

I think some of your issues are wishing he'd be different, and trying to make him different. But he is who he is. You have to decide which are the issues you would act on. It may bother you that he went to church, but that isn't a violation of an agreement between the two of you. On the other hand, if he picks up women, you can decide that's a boundary you won't tolerate, or maybe you will.

Don't read into the donation to the priest. Any time a clergy member performs a personal service, a donation is appropriate. The priest went out of his way to bless your home. Maybe he drove up in an expensive car, but he's blessing an expensive mansion. Your H may have felt a generous donation was appropriate. Had the priest blessed a home in an impoverished neighborhood it would not be. However, this would be the same for any clergy- minister, rabbi. If someone could not pay, they would not insist on it.


If his religious activity has a punitive affect on the children, then you would have to handle that like any other abusive action he took. However, that is much harder to prove in court than if he physically assaults them.

Take a close look at what you are able to control and what you can't. Also it will take accepting that he is who he is,not the person you wish he'd be. Lastly, please don't assume his behavior is about you or a threat to you. I hope you can keep a clear focus on your goals and what matters to you. You also have the freedom to explore your own faith tradition. Babyducks made a good point. How can you make your own connection stronger? If you are not able to attend a temple - there are several informative websites to study and possibly other ways to connect with people. Can you focus more on your own spiritual needs?

[babyducks]

Is the problem that he goes to church to be the rescuer, the knight in shining armor, to 'pick up' young impressionable girls 

Or

Is the problem that he is not rescuing you?  Being that knight in shiny armor saving you ?

Looks like the later to me.

[snowglobe]

Shana Tova U'metuka

Have you ever wondered snowglobe,  if you desperately attempt to fix and care for your husband as a round about substitute way to care for and heal yourself?

Not everything he does is directed at you.    Actually very little of it is.

A lot of what you blame on him, really appears to be you avoiding your own feelings and pain.

Whatdo you think?

Are you unhappy on erev Rosh HaShannah because he went to church or because you don't have a spiritual connection today?

Hello Ducks,
Shanah Tovah um’tukah, thank you for your insightful observation. Perhaps by focusing on him I avoid my own pain and feelings. I’m trying to heal myself by helping him. I am not religious, as the time when I was growing up were not nurturing to allow me to discover and fulfill my heritage. I am not angry that he went, rather I felt abandoned and mistreated. This feeling of my mouth being constantly shut closed with tape, unable to say how his behaviour makes me feel is what triggered my anger.

[snowglobe]

Is the problem that he goes to church to be the rescuer, the knight in shining armor, to 'pick up' young impressionable girls 

Or

Is the problem that he is not rescuing you?  Being that knight in shiny armor saving you ?

Looks like the later to me.

Indeed it is

[babyducks]

I also know from him, that the church was his stomping ground for picking up the girls. Broken, needy and financially disadvantaged women looking for salvation in a new country. Him being the night in shining armour, him, being the rescuer, immigration being the persecutor and the girls being the victims.

This girl was you once, wasn't it?   Broken, needy, financially disadvantaged.    He came and you felt rescued once.   He came and played the knight in shining armor.    It must have felt tremendous.    Considering your past, it must have been the first time, and maybe the only time you felt safe and secure.    It must have felt like he could do this forever.    It must have felt like this was the answer.   The only answer.     

and maybe it was the answer, that once, for that brief time.   

it's not the answer any longer.   you have this pattern.     you look to him for answers.    you look for him to rescue.    you look to him to save you.    you look to him to heal you and fill you up.     you look to blame him for your pain.   you look to make him responsible for your happiness.

it's time to become your own rescuer.     you can do this.

[babyducks]

Perhaps by focusing on him I avoid my own pain and feelings. I’m trying to heal myself by helping him.

it seems like the only time in your entire life you felt security, and safety and stability was when you first met your husband.

and you learned that he was the provider of safety and security.   he was the only provider.     only he could create feelings of safety.   he was the answer.

and the pattern is … you go back to that well time after time after time.    looking for stability and safety and security and shalom (peace).

the bitcoin will provide the security.    the bitcoin will provide safety.

the new house,... that will stabilize the family, that will make things peaceful.

sharing the martial bed... there is security.   there is safety.

except.

except you never really do feel safe and secure and stable.   do you?   

the bit coin.  the new house.    the different cars.     the cosmetic surgery to cement the security of having him.    they don't really work do they?

and the feelings of anger surface.    If only he would... then you would be okay.    if only X would happen, then things would be all right.

 that feeling of safety and security and stability has to be something you create for yourself now.   

[snowglobe]

This girl was you once, wasn't it?   Broken, needy, financially disadvantaged.    He came and you felt rescued once.   He came and played the knight in shining armor.    It must have felt tremendous.    Considering your past, it must have been the first time, and maybe the only time you felt safe and secure.    It must have felt like he could do this forever.    It must have felt like this was the answer.   The only answer.     

and maybe it was the answer, that once, for that brief time.   

it's not the answer any longer.   you have this pattern.     you look to him for answers.    you look for him to rescue.    you look to him to save you.    you look to him to heal you and fill you up.     you look to blame him for your pain.   you look to make him responsible for your happiness.

it's time to become your own rescuer.     you can do this.

Thank you Ducks,
It was me, still is in many ways. I never felt this level of love, care and emergence with another human being. There wasn’t anything that he would do for me, I felt safe. Only it all began to lift very quickly, we would ride the tides of love followed by him splitting me back to black. I saved my son from a terrible disability, why can’t I save myself?. I’m working on it, through my school, effort and commitment to change. But I feel tired. As if a very heavy weight is been dropped on my lap. I work hard for kids, for him and my parents. I put myself last and hope that at some point, once everyone is well and taken care off I can give some time to myself.

[snowglobe]

it seems like the only time in your entire life you felt security, and safety and stability was when you first met your husband.

and you learned that he was the provider of safety and security.   he was the only provider.     only he could create feelings of safety.   he was the answer.

and the pattern is … you go back to that well time after time after time.    looking for stability and safety and security and shalom (peace).

the bitcoin will provide the security.    the bitcoin will provide safety.

the new house,... that will stabilize the family, that will make things peaceful.

sharing the martial bed... there is security.   there is safety.

except.

except you never really do feel safe and secure and stable.   do you?   

the bit coin.  the new house.    the different cars.     the cosmetic surgery to cement the security of having him.    they don't really work do they?

and the feelings of anger surface.    If only he would... then you would be okay.    if only X would happen, then things would be all right.

 that feeling of safety and security and stability has to be something you create for yourself now.   

Ducks, you are spot on, it’s crazy!
I do hope for financial and emotional security, for his love for me, only to find someone who isn’t real. There is no understanding, we are two disfunctional people trying to have a functioning relationships. There were drugs and addictions before, myself to him, him to substances. Now it’s my codependency on him and his bod and npd. I need to provide this love, security and acceptance for myself. For my children who are growing up with emotional abandonment because I’m so busy chasing their dad. As a result they don’t get either of the parents.

[babyducks]

I do hope for financial and emotional security,

it's a lot more than hope, isn't it snowglobe?

why did the priest with the Mercedes and the large donation trigger you so badly?

was it maybe that it felt threatening?   like if the priest had a Mercedes and a large donation there wasn't going to be enough resources for you?    there wasn't going to be enough to go around?

for a while you felt safety and security and stability with your husband.  and over and over and over and over again you try force him to  manufacture those feelings for you.    it's really not working.    it's actually making things worse.

the childhood you survived trained you to create safety by manipulating situations and people.    didn't it?

children who survive trauma make themselves safe by becoming hypervigilant.   by focusing on their abuser.      that's the normal reaction of a child.    it makes sense for a child.     It is not the normal reaction of an adult.     you are an adult now.   you have different choices.     focusing on him is making you feel less safe.   being hypervigilant to him is making you less secure.

does that make sense?

[snowglobe]

it's a lot more than hope, isn't it snowglobe?

why did the priest with the Mercedes and the large donation trigger you so badly?

was it maybe that it felt threatening?   like if the priest had a Mercedes and a large donation there wasn't going to be enough resources for you?    there wasn't going to be enough to go around?

for a while you felt safety and security and stability with your husband.  and over and over and over and over again you try force him to  manufacture those feelings for you.    it's really not working.    it's actually making things worse.

the childhood you survived trained you to create safety by manipulating situations and people.    didn't it?

children who survive trauma make themselves safe by becoming hypervigilant.   by focusing on their abuser.      that's the normal reaction of a child.    it makes sense for a child.     It is not the normal reaction of an adult.     you are an adult now.   you have different choices.     focusing on him is making you feel less safe.   being hypervigilant to him is making you less secure.

does that make sense?

You are very observant,
Yes, I have been triggered by the church, priest and donation because now, as a result of that donation I don’t have enough to live by for the rest of the month. His spendings always come out of the family budget and he doesn’t compensate. Regardless who is on the receiving end of that financial assistance of payment, my in laws, priest or his friends, I’m severely triggered because it means that something will be cut away from the children. He doesn’t give enough to be comfortable, I can’t buy nothing but the necessities on the budget he gives me. The house expenses, food, children’s expenses. That is it.
The childhood I survived depended on how I would adjust to the changing circumstances and people who provided security. My bio npd father was too busy punishing my mother for adultery, so he made sure that his financial resources were only accessible to me during my time with him. I resented him so much for it, I despised him. Couldn’t wait to get away from him fast enough. Growing up financially disadvantaged left an ugly stamp on my awareness and reality processing.
Please elaborate more on hyper vigilance and my focus on him. How does it make the matters worse? What can be done differently?

[snowglobe]

How to avoid the God triangle? Or one with others in your family?


Don't make any of this about you. If he wants to bless the house- fine. Why did he give you the money or have you contact the priest? If he wants to bless the house- he can make the arrangements and pay the priest himself.

He may not like this, but he's an adult. He can take care of his own religion. He can have his own relationship with his choice of way to relate to God. You don't need to be responsible for this. It's between him and his religion. If he tried to involve you doing something for him like this, simply say " I understand this is what you want and I think it is best if you make the arrangements".

If he wants to involve the kids- this is also his choice as a parent. The two of you are from different faith traditions, but you two don't have an agreement to raise the kids in one faith. He has the right to share his beliefs with them. You may not agree with this, but unless he's abusive with his religion, then you can't intervene and it's also hard to prove that it's abusive in court unless he causes proof of harm. Righteousness and sin are aspects of some religions and is not illegal.

If he wants to go to church, then that's his right. You don't have to go with him, but don't make this about you. It's him and his church.

He may think he is sleeping on the couch to "punish you" or you may think that, but it isn't necessarily punishment. He can sleep where he  wants, so can you. Sometimes I'm in another bedroom if I can't sleep well, or snoring is loud, or any number of reasons. Don't make a big deal out of it. Enjoy a night's sleep with the bed to yourself.

If you don't assume the drama is about you, then you won't make yourself part of it.

Hi Wendy,
Religious differences are hard to wrap my mind around. This person is committing emotional, physical transgressions against me, the children and my mother, yet, he is also been forgiven his sins, in his eyes. I find this occurrence very incongruent. Like Ducks rightfully noted, I tend to focus on the abuser, hypervigiliantly to survive. Right now it is not only me, but also the children who depend on him for their livelihood. I try to keep him happy so he can keep on providing. It is not working. He isn’t happy and he isn’t providing as I would like to see. A sense of anger and abandonment trigger resurfaces. I don’t believe thAt a man is capable of loving him wife and children over his family of origin, religion and close relatives. I have seen my own father forsake me for his mother. For my children to survive and take full advantage of the resources that my ubpdh possesses he needs to focus on them (and me by extension). I’m fighting to change this mental schema in my brain that is reinforced by early trauma and bpd mother who still lives with me. Because of my school I can’t care for the household alone. I need help, otherwise I would have to quit school. If I quit, it would be a failing, it won’t kill me, but it would keep me with an outstretched hand much longer. I want to provide and support myself and the kids so I stop looking at him for security, if it makes sense. There isn’t much I can do with my education at the moment. 

[snowglobe]

Wendy,
Can you connect with me on this, “if all of my needs would be met by me, my financial security, emotional fulfilment, validation and physical needs, why do I need my ubpdh?”. I don’t believe that love is the source of the union. It’s fleeting and insufficient to maintain the relationships. On the other hand, convenience of delegating responsibilities, commitment to seeing the life unfold together, child rearing, financial assistance are the sound grounds of maintaining the relationships.
I accept the idea of severing the emotional codependency, but if that entails all the other ones too, we will have nothing left to go on.

[babyducks]

The childhood I survived depended on how I would adjust to the changing circumstances and people who provided security.

Let's look at just this for a little while longer.   It's very important.

as a child you learned, were trained, to constantly monitor the people around you to manufacture safety and some low level of  care for yourself.  you learned to figure it out.    If I do this, then they will do that.

relationships and care were transactional.    care and love and affection were not given freely.    care and comfort were not given because they were your due.   you were a pawn in an adult argument.  and what you received or didn't receive was just another transaction in their argument.      I'm right, aren't I?

this was a bad role model.   you brought it with you into adulthood.    your inner child reasons that all relationships work that way.     indeed your inner child doesn't believe there can be another way for relationships to work.

and then you met your husband.   who, for reasons of his own, also functions the same way.

for a while, it worked.    he provided the safety and security and stability and care and comfort you lacked.   but he has issues of his own, that he is also not addressing.     so it didn't last.    it couldn't last really.

when things started to not work... you doubled down on what you knew.    that inner child went back to what she learned much earlier.    I will figure it out more.   I will figure it out better.    I will take better care of him.     I will travel with him to the distant work place and never leave him alone and I will feel safe and secure that he won't use drugs or cheat because I will always be there.  I will massage his feet, then he will care for me.   this is really not how relationships work.   I know that sounds odd to you.

you became hypervigilant.    if he gets out of the car on the way to the furniture store,  it causes you to panic.    why?    because you are always waiting for the shoe to drop.    the crisis to explode.  for all the maneuvering and coaxing and manipulating and cajoling to fail.    and it does fail.   because it's not a good model for a successful relationship.   

he gets frustrated.   you get panicked.    he lashes out.    you show up here in a triggered state, unable to absorb our messages.   and your marriage slides further down hill.  the cycle continues and you lose more ground.

it's time to look these fears right in the face.   past time really.   

post after post after post you tell us only he can provide safety, security, stability.   you say it in a lot of different ways but it is always the same message.    you have to play the game by his rules or very bad things happen.   you tend to express your situation in survival terms, life or death, black or white, the end of the world type language.

 this is not true.    this is fear distorting reality.   this is that inner child you have within reacting to old hurts.  this is that inner child remembering the times he did provide safety, security and stability and being willing to bankrupt herself to feel it again.

right?

why do I say the hypervigilance makes things worse?    well how do you think it makes it worse snowglobe?     when you are, as you say, chasing him,   when you are chasing him to get that next little smidgen of safety, and security and stability, you raise the emotional temperature in your marriage to molten lava.     you pressure him and he responds poorly.    you neglect yourself.     you live in a constant state of crisis and upheaval and never get to rest.     he never gets to rest from the emotional turmoil between you and it takes longer for him to return to baseline.   

 

I try to keep him happy so he can keep on providing. It is not working.

right.    it's not working.   lots and lots of reasons it's not working.     want to try different approaches now?
 

[Enabler]

Hey Snowglobe, looks like you're making some great progress here on this thread and some lightbulbs are coming on all over the place.

I have a question to throw into the mix and I think it's similar to Notwendy's...

What $ value do you think if you had in your hand would buy you 'security'?
I guess you can ask the same question of all the things you have detailed below.

My point is, one persons definition of security can be different to another's. I feel insecure when I have debt, so when I owned my first house I felt insecure, I felt like if everything went bad it could ALL be taken away from me and I would be a failure (super black and white thinking). I either had the house and paid off the debt, or I didn't and I was a failure. I paid off the mortgage and I felt secure. Then we moved house and we got a very large mortgage on a much larger home... again I felt insecure and my primary focus was/is to pay down the debt to gain security again... BUT... once I have paid off the mortgage I'm 99% confident I would feel secure. I haven't been able to shift my parents view of debt and have taken it through to my adult life where although it's beneficial in some respects, it's crippling in others. I have a line where I know I'll feel secure, it's specific and I understand it's origins. I also know that I have enough wealth NOW to feel secure if something bad were to happen. What's your line, what equates to security for you. You seem to think a lot about 'what if' emotionally, but practically have you ever written down what you would need to attain security. My sense is that you haven't and I sense that the bar for attaining security rises each time you get close to what you perceived was the 'amount' (not just money), which says to me that your sense of security has NOTHING to do with the things that you aspire to accumulate which you hope will give you a sense of security.

Would you say that you feel like the world is generally dangerous or generally safe?

I'm generally safe but filled with idiots.

Enabler  

[snowglobe]

Let's look at just this for a little while longer.   It's very important.

as a child you learned, were trained, to constantly monitor the people around you to manufacture safety and some low level of  care for yourself.  you learned to figure it out.    If I do this, then they will do that.

relationships and care were transactional.    care and love and affection were not given freely.    care and comfort were not given because they were your due.   you were a pawn in an adult argument.  and what you received or didn't receive was just another transaction in their argument.      I'm right, aren't I?

this was a bad role model.   you brought it with you into adulthood.    your inner child reasons that all relationships work that way.     indeed your inner child doesn't believe there can be another way for relationships to work.

and then you met your husband.   who, for reasons of his own, also functions the same way.

for a while, it worked.    he provided the safety and security and stability and care and comfort you lacked.   but he has issues of his own, that he is also not addressing.     so it didn't last.    it couldn't last really.

when things started to not work... you doubled down on what you knew.    that inner child went back to what she learned much earlier.    I will figure it out more.   I will figure it out better.    I will take better care of him.     I will travel with him to the distant work place and never leave him alone and I will feel safe and secure that he won't use drugs or cheat because I will always be there.  I will massage his feet, then he will care for me.   this is really not how relationships work.   I know that sounds odd to you.

you became hypervigilant.    if he gets out of the car on the way to the furniture store,  it causes you to panic.    why?    because you are always waiting for the shoe to drop.    the crisis to explode.  for all the maneuvering and coaxing and manipulating and cajoling to fail.    and it does fail.   because it's not a good model for a successful relationship.   

he gets frustrated.   you get panicked.    he lashes out.    you show up here in a triggered state, unable to absorb our messages.   and your marriage slides further down hill.  the cycle continues and you lose more ground.

it's time to look these fears right in the face.   past time really.   

post after post after post you tell us only he can provide safety, security, stability.   you say it in a lot of different ways but it is always the same message.    you have to play the game by his rules or very bad things happen.   you tend to express your situation in survival terms, life or death, black or white, the end of the world type language.

 this is not true.    this is fear distorting reality.   this is that inner child you have within reacting to old hurts.  this is that inner child remembering the times he did provide safety, security and stability and being willing to bankrupt herself to feel it again.

right?

why do I say the hypervigilance makes things worse?    well how do you think it makes it worse snowglobe?     when you are, as you say, chasing him,   when you are chasing him to get that next little smidgen of safety, and security and stability, you raise the emotional temperature in your marriage to molten lava.     you pressure him and he responds poorly.    you neglect yourself.     you live in a constant state of crisis and upheaval and never get to rest.     he never gets to rest from the emotional turmoil between you and it takes longer for him to return to baseline.   

 
right.    it's not working.   lots and lots of reasons it's not working.     want to try different approaches now?
 

I’m motivated to try different approach. What you are describing is very reasonable and accurate portray of my marriage. How can I do it differently this time?

[snowglobe]

Hey Snowglobe, looks like you're making some great progress here on this thread and some lightbulbs are coming on all over the place.

I have a question to throw into the mix and I think it's similar to Notwendy's...

What $ value do you think if you had in your hand would buy you 'security'?
I guess you can ask the same question of all the things you have detailed below.

My point is, one persons definition of security can be different to another's. I feel insecure when I have debt, so when I owned my first house I felt insecure, I felt like if everything went bad it could ALL be taken away from me and I would be a failure (super black and white thinking). I either had the house and paid off the debt, or I didn't and I was a failure. I paid off the mortgage and I felt secure. Then we moved house and we got a very large mortgage on a much larger home... again I felt insecure and my primary focus was/is to pay down the debt to gain security again... BUT... once I have paid off the mortgage I'm 99% confident I would feel secure. I haven't been able to shift my parents view of debt and have taken it through to my adult life where although it's beneficial in some respects, it's crippling in others. I have a line where I know I'll feel secure, it's specific and I understand it's origins. I also know that I have enough wealth NOW to feel secure if something bad were to happen. What's your line, what equates to security for you. You seem to think a lot about 'what if' emotionally, but practically have you ever written down what you would need to attain security. My sense is that you haven't and I sense that the bar for attaining security rises each time you get close to what you perceived was the 'amount' (not just money), which says to me that your sense of security has NOTHING to do with the things that you aspire to accumulate which you hope will give you a sense of security.

Would you say that you feel like the world is generally dangerous or generally safe?

I'm generally safe but filled with idiots.

Enabler  

That is a great observation Enabler, to answer your question, I felt secure when the mortgage was paid off and we owed the house. I feel safe when I have enough to cover the months expenses for the house and the children. I want to outline it and make it bold- I did not want or instigate the move, ubpdh made the ultimatum and I complied. What I feel unsafe about is when he has the access to our money. For instance, I would not want him taking the money out of the house. He can gamble it away from unsafe business investments as he did before. My children would not have anything left for him. Youngest has a disability and will require assistance. I need to secure that for him.
I genuinely believe that would is a jungle and unsafe. I need to be on a high alert in order to keep myself and the kids safe

[formflier]

He can gamble it away from unsafe business investments as he did before. 

So...if he gambled all your money away.  How did you guys afford the mansion and lifestyle you have?

I ask because telling yourself the truth is important.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I’m motivated to try different approach. What you are describing is very reasonable and accurate portray of my marriage. How can I do it differently this time?

very much seems to me that the first step is to lessen this hypervigilance on him, on his behaviors on his actions.

you said this:

I’m severely triggered because it means that something will be cut away from the children.

Really?    is that what's really going on?     it seems to me that shortfalls in the budget would trigger memories of times when, as a child, you didn't have enough resources.    is seems to me that your wounded inner child would be shrieking at you that the priest with the Mercedes is literally taking food off her plate.   and that she is about to starve.    

the way to lessen the hypervigilance is to comfort the inner child.    when the sweet wounded inner child starts with the fearful thinking of comfort her.    tell her she's okay.   tell her it will be all right.      don't lie to her.   it won't be easy.  it won't be simple but tell her an adult (You Snowglobe)  is going to step up and take care of her now.

[babyducks]

I genuinely believe that would is a jungle and unsafe. I need to be on a high alert in order to keep myself and the kids safe

I know you believe that. 

and there are lots and lots of good reasons to feel that way.    makes a lot of sense that you do.

but as we try to point out, over and over again,... that belief is not 100% accurate.   it might be 37% accurate or it might not be.   it's time to find out what is really unsafe.   what is false evidence appearing as real.   and what is the trauma of your past.   

this high alert state that you are always in causes you to make impulsive and emotional decisions,    the time is here to weed through it, slowly, carefully, gently.

you can do this.

[Notwendy]

“if all of my needs would be met by me, my financial security, emotional fulfilment, validation and physical needs, why do I need my ubpdh?”. I don’t believe that love is the source of the union. It’s fleeting and insufficient to maintain the relationships. On the other hand, convenience of delegating responsibilities, commitment to seeing the life unfold together, child rearing, financial assistance are the sound grounds of maintaining the relationships.
I accept the idea of severing the emotional codependency, but if that entails all the other ones too, we will have nothing left to go on.


This is insightful Snowglobe. There are many layers to this. It's hard to really describe "love" between two married people who have been together a long time and who have children together. I don't think it's the same as the new feeling when people start dating and each is a blank slate to the other. In marriage- one sees the good side and the flaws. There are good times and times when each is probably annoyed with the other. But their relationship is built on the commitment as you describe:delegating responsibilities, commitment to seeing the life unfold together, child rearing, financial assistance are the sound grounds of maintaining the relationships. and a certain love is there that comes from this commitment.

That's in an emotionally healthy relationship. In dysfunctional relationships there may be some of what you described to a degree of how functional they are- but an underlying glue between the two people is the drama and mutual addiction/co-dependency that meets each person's needs to some extent, but there's a cost to that drama ( hurt feelings, dysfunction). Just like an addict may be addicted to something that has a high cost to their health, or their family- ie drugs, alcohol, a dysfunctional couple can be addicted to the drama and dysfunction between them.

Marriage can also be a social contract. If one person provides the income, then the other person may be expected to provide other commodities. You would not be the first person in history to marry for financial security, the provider would have access to a homemaker and sex. This is one model for marriage before women were in the workplace and it still prevails. However, abusing the spouse was not part of this picture.

I don't want to focus on your H- I like that the focus is on you. But he has needs too and I think he meets these needs with money. He finds someone young, impressionable and can woo them with money. He wants a flashy house, car, as he needs people to see he has money. He assaults your D and then buys her affection with a car. He also bought you with his money. But what does that leave him? If he thinks people mainly love him for his money, he's not going to feel loved. But he wants admiration and affection and so goes for another money "fix" to soothe his empty feelings. But it doesn't last long and he needs them again and again.

You crave security. His money is security to you, so you also fall for the money fix, each time you do- you realize it doesn't bring you the kind of security you want.

The two of you are each filling an addiction with your behaviors.

I think your fear, if you are able to support yourself, is that your H won't be able to seek his money fix with you and your pairing will be threatened.

Is this what I am getting at? On the other hand, there is an emotional ( and often physical ) cost to any addiction. The addict continues until the cost is too high- they hit bottom. I don't know what that is for you.

Changing a co-dependent pattern is scary- if one person changes, it can change the patterns between two people. They may not "fit" together in their dysfunctional ways. The other person then has a decision- to grow with the changes or to not, and that can either improve the relationship or it may not last.

I understand that's a very scary situation for you. It would put the ball in your H's court if you changed the pattern. He would have to consider his own investment in the marriage. I can't predict the future for anyone. But this is a man who has threatened to sell the house, take the money and leave- and he had the chance to do it. He didn't. I do know one thing- he won't have an incentive to change as long as you reinforce the behaviors that have worked for him- and these behaviors are the ones driven by your fears.

If you were more self sufficient, not just financially ( that may not happen for a while with school and kids) but emotionally, and spiritually- and not so fearful- did not look to him for all your fulfillment - then you would not be reinforcing his dysfunction. He might have the chance to learn something different too. Or not. But you would be better off either way by not being so afraid.

[snowglobe]

So...if he gambled all your money away.  How did you guys afford the mansion and lifestyle you have?

I ask because telling yourself the truth is important.

Best,

FF

He earned it back, that’s the truth, but only after I started placing boundaries in what he could spend and what he could invest

[snowglobe]

very much seems to me that the first step is to lessen this hypervigilance on him, on his behaviors on his actions.

you said this:
Really?    is that what's really going on?     it seems to me that shortfalls in the budget would trigger memories of times when, as a child, you didn't have enough resources.    is seems to me that your wounded inner child would be shrieking at you that the priest with the Mercedes is literally taking food off her plate.   and that she is about to starve.    

the way to lessen the hypervigilance is to comfort the inner child.    when the sweet wounded inner child starts with the fearful thinking of comfort her.    tell her she's okay.   tell her it will be all right.      don't lie to her.   it won't be easy.  it won't be simple but tell her an adult (You Snowglobe)  is going to step up and take care of her now.

Ducks, you gave me one of the greatest gifts regarding the insight. Because I write here as my last resort, when I can no longer effectively cope with my feelings, my posts are authentic and uncensored. Your description of the priest and how this affected my earlier memories ring so true that it is scary. I will try and console my inner child and make her feel safe. I will tell her that I am not going to allow anything dramatic happen to her. That she lives in a different country now, where there are basic laws and safety. I will tell her that she won’t starve, that her children will be ok. I will tell her that I am capable of looking out for her, the same way I look after my kids and my husband. I will reread your post several more times to further incorporate it.

[formflier]

He earned it back, that’s the truth, but only after I started placing boundaries in what he could spend and what he could invest

So..what's to worry about now?  He earned it back.  You used boundaries.  You live in a mansion.   

Doesn't it sound to me like this experience was a positive thing.  Each of you learned a lesson and are better for it.

What am I missing here?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I will try and console my inner child and make her feel safe. I will tell her that I am not going to allow anything dramatic happen to her.

There you go snowglobe.    that's the way.   that's the ticket

this terrified inner child has been running your life and your marriage for a long time now.    she can stop now.   she can rest and the adult snowglobe can take over.

[babyducks]

So..what's to worry about now?  He earned it back.  You used boundaries.  You live in a mansion.   

I am going to jump on this one, pardon my size eights FF.

this is the same point, I was trying to make, from a different angle.

Snowglobe you believe the world is unsafe and a jungle and you need to always be on high alert.

and in a way your belief helps create that fact.

your family had a financial down turn,  your husband gambled away money.    but it felt, and for very real reasons, it felt to you like all the safety and security and stability were gone.

but that wasn't 100% accurate.    it might have had some basis in fact but your fears, and your heightened need for security took over and it felt like the world was ending.    looking back with 20/20 hindsight... all the safety wasn't really gone was it?

[formflier]

your family had a financial down turn,  your husband gambled away money.    but it felt, and for very real reasons, it felt to you like all the safety and security and stability were gone.

but that wasn't 100% accurate.    it might have had some basis in fact but your fears, and your heightened need for security took over and it felt like the world was ending.   

Come on in!  Plenty of room. 

I also am wondering what "gambling" means.  Did he literally make bets in Vegas or did he make "unwise business decisions".

And..to show my hand some.  Bitcoin is considering a "gamble" by many (most) of the business community.  So..I'm wondering how it's "gambling" when he loses, but when he "wins" it's about your boundaries.

Best,

FF