Advice on what to tell S4 when he asks to stay w/me full time?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some advice on how to deal with questions/comments like this from my kids. They're both young (4 & 6), and live with their mom the majority of the time (we're under the standard possession order in our state, so it's about 65/35, her/me, and she's the custodial parent). 

Both kids have had issues with her live-in BF, and have told me they don't like him.  As far as I know, he's not physically abusive to them, but more or less dismissive of them, and yells a lot (he and my XW fight verbally and often... unsurprisingly). 

Recently S4 started asking me why he had to go back to his mom's house, and why he couldn't stay with me all the time.  I talked to him about it, told him that's the deal his mom and I had, so we can each see them, tried to re-assure him, without laying on anything too heavy, like trying to explain custody issues to him.  Not sure if I did a good job.

A couple days after that, I called XW so I could say goodnight to kids, and S4 was sobbing hysterically on the other line!  when I got him to calm down, he explained to me that he told his mom he'd rather live w/me, and both XW and her BF yelled at him.  Nice...

Concerns:

• In this state, kids can decide who they want to live with when they're 12... which is a long way off.  Not sure how to tell kids that there's really nothing either of us can do to change the situation (absent a showing of abuse, or other horrible things I hope don't happen)
• I've seen comments from other people here that as kids get older, they resent the Non-BPD parent from not protecting them, or shielding them from the pwBPD's emotional abuse.
• What can you say to a 4 or 6 y.o. to reassure them, while also not having it be something to trigger the BPD parent if/when the kids talk about it?

[PeteWitsend]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some advice on how to deal with questions/comments like this from my kids. They're both young (4 & 6), and live with their mom the majority of the time (we're under the standard possession order in our state, so it's about 65/35, her/me, and she's the custodial parent). 

Both kids have had issues with her live-in BF, and have told me they don't like him.  As far as I know, he's not physically abusive to them, but more or less dismissive of them, and yells a lot (he and my XW fight verbally and often... unsurprisingly). 

Recently S4 started asking me why he had to go back to his mom's house, and why he couldn't stay with me all the time.  I talked to him about it, told him that's the deal his mom and I had, so we can each see them, tried to re-assure him, without laying on anything too heavy, like trying to explain custody issues to him.  Not sure if I did a good job.

A couple days after that, I called XW so I could say goodnight to kids, and S4 was sobbing hysterically on the other line!  when I got him to calm down, he explained to me that he told his mom he'd rather live w/me, and both XW and her BF yelled at him.  Nice...

Concerns:

• In this state, kids can decide who they want to live with when they're 12... which is a long way off.  Not sure how to tell kids that there's really nothing either of us can do to change the situation (absent a showing of abuse, or other horrible things I hope don't happen)
• I've seen comments from other people here that as kids get older, they resent the Non-BPD parent from not protecting them, or shielding them from the pwBPD's emotional abuse.
• What can you say to a 4 or 6 y.o. to reassure them, while also not having it be something to trigger the BPD parent if/when the kids talk about it?

[PeteWitsend]

Want to add: I've refrained from badmouthing XW to them, and am careful to not blame her for anything, both to protect them, and as a general rule.

I know they're too young to understand the value of being discrete when it comes to sharing information with a BPD parent, so I try not to directly contradict anything she tells them, so they don't get dragged into he said/she said arguments or other nonsense. 

[worriedStepmom]

Where I live, everyone who gets divorced with kids has to take a basic parenting class.  They recommended that you blame all custody decisions on the judge.  "The judge said you stay with mom on these days and dad on these days."  The judge is a neutral figure they can be mad at, and then the kids don't start to blame one or both parents.

Is the live-in boyfriend new?  In my jurisdiction, that would count as a change of circumstance and could be enough to file a custody modification.  That, plus the fact that mom and bf have loud arguments in front of the kids and yell at the kids enough to get one to sob hysterically (big red flag) may be enough to get you more time. 

Is there any chance of getting the kids into counseling and see what a therapist might think of what's going on?  My son has always said he wants to live with dad, but his therapist says it's mostly because dad has fewer rules and a pool, and because S doesn't see dad as often he misses him.

[MeandThee29]

Where I live, everyone who gets divorced with kids has to take a basic parenting class.  They recommended that you blame all custody decisions on the judge.  "The judge said you stay with mom on these days and dad on these days."  The judge is a neutral figure they can be mad at, and then the kids don't start to blame one or both parents.

Same where I live. They say to blame the judge. You don't want to set up either parent as being unwilling to meet their needs.

Focus on your relationship with the kid(s). Validate their concerns without digging into the other parent's issues. To the desire to be with you all the time, you can say that you love being with them too but that the judge decides where they go. You can say that it is hard to be with people who are fighting or yelling at you and see if you can help them at their young age to handle that, as hard as it is.

I agree though that a custody modification might be in order.

[Panda39]

Hi Pete,

I've pulled some information from the site on raising resilient kids that you might find helpful.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

I agree with the others blame the court/judge.  Because they are so young, listen, and try to validate your kids' feelings.  If you have the opportunity to have additional/extra time with your kids take it.  A Therapist for them is also a good idea.  You might talk with your lawyer about the possibility of going back to court for additional custody too. 

Panda39

[livednlearned]

Maybe draw out a little more before telling him nothing can change?

One way to help him is to slow things down to his pace and sit with his feelings. He's trying to problem-solve with what seems like an easy solution but there's probably a lot of powerful emotions leading up to that moment. You want to mine those emotions so you can help him problem-solve while he's with his mom and her BF.

Also, he will feel your feelings -- if you feel helpless (I can't help you), he'll know. They just do.

There's probably a load of frustration and he doesn't yet have the language to help him deal with that level of frustration. Our kids are at higher risk of being emotionally reactive because they aren't being validated enough by both parents and reactivity is usually modeled by the BPD parent. Emotional resilience is better than emotional reactivity.

You can bear witness to his feelings. Help him find the language to describe what happened to make him say what he's saying, how he dealt with those feelings. What worked, what doesn't work.

Also, "Buddy, it makes me so angry that you have to deal with someone being mean to you like that" is a way of protecting him. You're also protecting him a physical, emotional, and psychological respite just by giving him a respite from that degree of emotional chaos. The less alone he feels, the more he feels protected, even if he has no choice about living with his mom.

I told my son, "There are a lot of adults trying to help our family because so many people care about you. When someone yells at me, I feel _______. There's a guy in my office really pushes my buttons and I've had to try some different strategies, like I go to my office and work really quietly when he seems like he's in a bad mood."

[PeteWitsend]

thanks,  @MeandThee29 and  @worriedStepmom.  The advice to blame the judge is good; I will start using that if/when similar questions arise in the future. 

@Panda39, I'll review the board advice, thanks.

To answer a couple other questions:

1) bpdXW's live-in boyfriend is not a new development.  As far as I know, he moved in last December, or possibly January, while our divorce proceedings were still underway, and we were both under a "morality clause" that prohibited us from having members of the opposite gender over when we had the kids.

She never gave me any information about him, other than some coy comments about her "good friend"... which I can tell were intended to upset me, so I generally ignored.  I see now I should have more aggressively pursued this from a purely legal standpoint, but at the time, I just wanted to get it over with, and move on, as I was wary of the amount of legal bills getting generated for relatively minor things. 

During mediation, she pushed to have the morality clause nixed, and my attorney said she probably had someone.  I later learned this was correct, and emailed him about it, but he was a bad attorney (I've since found a better one) and ignored this information until it was too late to do anything about it.

2) We have a therapist for the kids.  They seem to handle this situation well enough that there are no obvious signs of concern, other than the comments from S4 that he wants to live with me all the time.  When I call them to say goodnight, there are normally no signs of any distress and they seem happy and okay. 

When I've taken them to see the T, they generally play quietly, and answer his questions, but there's very little interaction beyond that.  Not sure if bpdXW coached them to keep tight-lipped with him***  but the T has told me he sees no need for further visits unless the situation changes.

I think I need to insist the visits be monthly, at least, as a precaution, rather than scheduling them if (when) things blow up, as they do.  I also think the T needs to be alone with the kids for a while in each visit.  I've been in the room each time, and I wonder if they also self-censor when I'm there.   




***she once told me she felt the kids' T was useless and would not take them to see him anymore.  I assume that's because he refused to validate her nonsense, and remained neutral in regards to the dispute between her and I.  This is consistent with the "forum shopping" approach to marital counselors she did while we were together, where she'd insist that any MCs who called her behavior out were "biased" or "unprofessional," argue with them, and insist we find someone new, refusing to go back to that MC again.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm really surprised you are present for the entire therapy session.  I took my daughter when she was 5.  I'd spend 5-10 min in the room with her and the T, then I'd leave and she'd have her own time.  (My other 2 kids started therapy at 9 and 11, and their T does the same.)

SD12 goes to see her T monthly, and, if her uBPDmom is acting up, more frequently.  Sometimes SD just talks about her siblings or school, and other times she wants to talk about mom.