Disparaging Comments and bad mouthing

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Once I decided to leave ex, there was a several year smear campaign.  The campaign was on social media, to parents of Daughter's friends, my parents and family, and of course the court system (even when confronted with evidence that didn't support allegations).  I picked ignoring the smear and deciding that people that believed her rather than talk to me weren't worth being in my life.  5 years later, its much less pervasive.  Maybe because so many people have walked away from the drama, maybe because I just don't care.

However, D16 is instituting boundries with mom, and mom has decided to play out of the same play book with her.  D16 has reported that mom has started telling D16's friends parents that D16 is a brat, a compulsive liar, and using drugs.  During custody modification, mom told D16s friends that D16 wanted more time with mom even though that wasn't accurate and D16 was asking for and obtained more time with me.  D16 is a straight A student who isn't any of those things.   Obviously, she is upset, and it isn't helping relationship with mom.  I didn't understand it with me, and I don't understand it now.  Does mom believe that this will help repair the situation or is it a fear instituting technique?  It just seems self destructive.

My question is how do I help D16 through this mess because its hard in adulthood I can't imagine as a 16 year old.  Mom and D16 had court ordered counseling and D16 complained about this conduct to counselor.  Mom indicated that she thought it was okay to voice her concerns to D16s parents and wasn't going to alter her behavior.

D16's counselor essentially told her that Mom is mentally ill and she will never obtain positive affirmation from her. 

Second question, D13 seems to fly under the radar completely with mom.  D16 takes the brunt of mom's focus, comments, involvement in her life.  D13 is left alone all weekend on mom's time.  Court ordered counselor thinks that's because D16 reminds mom of me.  I don't think that's it, but I don't understand the dynamic.  Why all the focus on D16 because it is driving her away while ignoring D13?

I think I am still trying to make this all make sense logically.  I know I shouldn't try and apply logic, but it is part of my problem and part of D16 and D13s problem as well.  Mom's behavior just doesn't make sense.  How do you reconcile that and how do you reconcile it for kids?

[daughtersdad]

Once I decided to leave ex, there was a several year smear campaign.  The campaign was on social media, to parents of Daughter's friends, my parents and family, and of course the court system (even when confronted with evidence that didn't support allegations).  I picked ignoring the smear and deciding that people that believed her rather than talk to me weren't worth being in my life.  5 years later, its much less pervasive.  Maybe because so many people have walked away from the drama, maybe because I just don't care.

However, D16 is instituting boundries with mom, and mom has decided to play out of the same play book with her.  D16 has reported that mom has started telling D16's friends parents that D16 is a brat, a compulsive liar, and using drugs.  During custody modification, mom told D16s friends that D16 wanted more time with mom even though that wasn't accurate and D16 was asking for and obtained more time with me.  D16 is a straight A student who isn't any of those things.   Obviously, she is upset, and it isn't helping relationship with mom.  I didn't understand it with me, and I don't understand it now.  Does mom believe that this will help repair the situation or is it a fear instituting technique?  It just seems self destructive.

My question is how do I help D16 through this mess because its hard in adulthood I can't imagine as a 16 year old.  Mom and D16 had court ordered counseling and D16 complained about this conduct to counselor.  Mom indicated that she thought it was okay to voice her concerns to D16s parents and wasn't going to alter her behavior.

D16's counselor essentially told her that Mom is mentally ill and she will never obtain positive affirmation from her. 

Second question, D13 seems to fly under the radar completely with mom.  D16 takes the brunt of mom's focus, comments, involvement in her life.  D13 is left alone all weekend on mom's time.  Court ordered counselor thinks that's because D16 reminds mom of me.  I don't think that's it, but I don't understand the dynamic.  Why all the focus on D16 because it is driving her away while ignoring D13?

I think I am still trying to make this all make sense logically.  I know I shouldn't try and apply logic, but it is part of my problem and part of D16 and D13s problem as well.  Mom's behavior just doesn't make sense.  How do you reconcile that and how do you reconcile it for kids?

[kells76]

Hey daughtersdad;

Great questions. My SD's are 11 & 13 right now, so younger than your kids, and still (mostly) in the "Mom and Stepdad are perfect" phase (though SD13 will let some complaints drop now and then). Neither has started to institute healthy boundaries with their mom.

When your kids were younger, what were their "roles" in the family? For example, was your older daughter the "golden child"/favored child with Mom? Did Mom overly relate to her ("We're such twins, she's just like me, we look the same" type stuff)? Was your younger D the "black sheep" -- "D13 can't do it as well as D16, come on D13 clean up your mess again, why can't you keep your room clean, let's just do it for D13"? Or a different role -- comedian, peacekeeper, perfect child...?

I'm curious if roles are starting to change for your D's and their mom. When family roles change, disordered/immature/dysfunctional people respond in unhealthy ways. So, perhaps, as your kids' mom senses D16 differentiating, she wants to control that process and perhaps "thinks" (feels?) that she can bring D16 "back under her thumb" if D16 has nowhere else to go (rejected by friends and friends' families for being a druggie loser -- picture created by Mom). Just throwing spaghetti at the wall here.

In our situation, SD13 has been the "precocious, wise, mature, adult child" and SD11 has been the "cute, young, loving, funny" black sheep. I think their mom overidentified with SD13 and invested a HUGE amount of time and energy into "protecting" SD13 from DH and "listening to what SD13 wanted". Now that SD13 wants to spend a little more time with DH, and doesn't really want to do the activities that Mom picks for her, Mom's focus has moved to SD11. SD11 is eating up the attention that she really never got from Mom at a younger age, but it's at the price of having to tell Mom some negative stuff about DH (which Mom then inflates back to us as a big deal, which it's not). Sad.

Anyway, perhaps the unpredictability of family roles changing, and the corresponding destabilization of the previous family structure, is making your D's mom uncomfortable and she's choosing unhealthy ways to get the structure back to comfort (for her).

How to help D16 through the mess? Counseling on her own is really, really good. Also, have you heard of validation? It's not just agreeing with anything your kids say. It's a specific set of tools and practices (sounds artificial, but after practice it's really not) that can give your kids the experience of THEIR feelings being the center of attention (not Mom's -- or ours). I'd encourage you to consider learning more about validating communication if you haven't already. Let us know if you want some links.

Cheers;

kells76

[worriedStepmom]

Kells is right about family roles.  Your ex is essentially living in a play that she created.  Ex casts other people around her into supporting roles that fit her narrative of who she is.

My SD12's uBPDmom sees herself as an amazing parent who is succeeding despite the efforts of other people to destroy her relationship with her daughter. 

SD12's role - like your younger daughter - is to exist.  You can't be an amazing parent unless you have a kid.  uBPDmom is only superficially interested in SD12, and often mom will ignore SD12 for the entire weekend.  When mom isn't ignoring SD12,  mom either smothers her (I love you soo much! You are the reason I am alive!  I just want us to be together all the time!) or tries to convince SD12 to actively support mom's reality (by telling SD12 that H and I and SD's counselor are all truly awful people trying to harm her). 

As my SD12 pushes back on these narratives, mom is slowly making her a target.  (You're abusing me, just like your dad!  You need to go see your counselor - there's something wrong with you!)  I expect this to get much worse.

SD's counselor and mom's counselor and H have told mom to stop saying these things (namecalling SD and trash talk about us and the counselor) to SD because it is damaging.  Mom will acknowledge that and then do it anyway "because SD needs to know" ... which translates to "I need someone to agree with me".  And that's why your ex is spewing hatred about her own kid to other parents.  She needs someone to support her view of herself as the victim of your daughter.  It is completely backwards - but to your ex, her daughter isn't a person, she's an accessory.

This alternating push-pull can seriously mess up a kid.  I highly encourage you to get your younger daughter in counseling even if she says she's fine.  SD12 told us she was fine for years (for lots of different reasons), but therapy has proven that is not the case.

For your oldest, I would ask her if she wants you to contact the friends' parents and intervene in any way.  If not, all you can do is be her safe haven when she needs to cry about it.

[40days_in_desert]

Our respective stories are similar. I have four daughters and one son with my ex and we’ve been apart (divorced) for over 4 years. Like you, my ex ran a smear campaign on me. I didn’t respond except for a couple of occasions where a mutual friend asked a specific question. Over time her credibility was shot (her own doing) so even her own family members don’t believe the things she claimed about me. My oldest then second oldest Ds went through a smear campaign. My oldest saw her mom’s poor behaviors for what they were a couple of years before we separated. Oldest D (now 18) use to engage with her mom. I had several conversations with D18 about what she was trying to gain by engaging in the arguments with her mom. There were two things: 1) D18 (then 14) wanted her mom to be a mom and 2) D18 would try to defend me.
We talked about whether D18 felt that she could actually modify her mother’s behaviors. She ultimately agreed that she couldn’t and that her reactions were more impulsive based on her emotions at the time. We discussed many of the tools listed on this. I also helped her implement something that I learned to do with her mom which is pausing before responding. That may be a couple of minutes or a couple of hours. This helps the emotions subside. She started seeing a therapist about 2 years ago that helped her learn, establish and enforce healthy boundaries with her mom. She’s done great and am very proud of her.
On defending me, I told her that I appreciate her knowing me and sticking up for me. After that we both agreed that the desired result was never achieved but rather the opposite. When her mom would start ranting about how evil, manipulative, narcissistic, etc, etc, etc, to just tell her that you don’t feel comfortable talking about either parent without both present. That cut that out pretty quick.
This may help or not. Just wanted to respond since our stories were similar. I have full custody of all 5 kids now.

[daughtersdad]

How many times through the court system for full custody of all 5?

[40days_in_desert]

I originally had be typical every other weekend and one dinner every week except to oldest (then D14 and D11) who stayed Sunday night and overnight one night during the week. My oldest D (now 18) moved in with me within three months. She said the only thing keeping her there that long is because she felt like her younger siblings wouldn’t be looked after. Ex moved in with her mom (my ex-MIL). My second oldest D (now 15) moved in with me about a year and a half ago. Other than a whole lot of guilt tripping towards our daughters, the ex put up zero fight. Earlier this year, my ex lost her place to stay as my ex-MIL lost her place to stay. All 5 kids started living in my house full time and my ex stayed at my house on days/nights that I traveled for work plus a few extra nights per months. That lasted about two months which was about two months too long. Ex has worked a total of two months since 2001 so there was no indication that she was going to find a place suitable for her to have our youngest three during her custody time which by our divorce agreement was 65%. I was still paying a healthy amount of support so I filed for full custody and was awarded full custody about a month an a half ago. Our youngest three stay with my ex-MIL when I’m out of town. I work from my home when not traveling.
It was a four year process but my ex pretty much didn’t have a choice. She lives with her bf and even she agreed that his place isn’t suitable for our kids to stay there.
Believe it or not that’s the Readers Digest version.

[david]

Similar story here too. Started in 2007. Took me about four years to get 50/50. When our oldest graduated high school her moved in with me full time. He was the golden child when he was born but ex turned him into a monster (in her mind) after we separated. Our youngest is 15 now and is still 50/50. He avoids his mom when he is with her as a coping mechanism. When he is with her he gets up himself to go to school and comes home to an empty house. She works until 9pm so he is in bed by the time she gets home.
S15 was recently talking to his older brother when he was with me. I couldn't help but overhear the conversation. He was talking about things at his moms and how crazy it is. The conversation went back and forth in a respectable manner. Finally, S15 said, " I refuse to believe that mom is normal." Caught me by surprise but from what I heard I realized he understands what is going on.

[mart555]

So D16 went from the golden child to being the bad child.  She pretty much split on her.  Maybe she was nice to her before because it gave her access to the youngest one... 

My ex has done that to my 14yo (now 15) and it's been terribly damaging.  Even 6 months later my son feels guilty and has doubts about how good of a kid he is.  The words from a mom, mental illness or not, still hurts. 

Make sure she understands what BPD is, and how a BPD parent acts.  She needs to understand that the bad behavior should be expected.   And being 16, can't she decide to not go visit mom or cut ties a bit?  It would suck for the youngest one however... visiting mom without any protection from the older sibling.